I suppose that specifically I am wondering if there are any things you do to perhaps:
- stay calm
- calm the other person down
- get them to understand you better
- understand their point of view
- diffuse trolls
- just be a good person who wants to participate in a conversation that enhances your understanding of others, different cultures, and the world and how it works
Don’t argue on the internet.
It’s not easy to find people who are willing to talk with you, most want to talk at you, and aren’t interested in good faith discussion. State your case, clearly and with sources as needed, and don’t waste your time with your opponent’s butwhatabout, JAQing off, irrelevant exceptions, and goalpost moving.
Listen here gummy worm.
Lemmy overall seems to really struggle with sarcasm. So if you see something that’s so ridiculous don’t freak out, and try interpreting it as such.
Lemmy overall seems to really struggle with sarcasm.
You can say that again, I dropped the “/s” when saying that it’s always 50-50 chance whether you win or lose since there’s only two options, and people thought I were serious.
Realise that not everyone is going to vibe with you and accept that.
Strike 2 and 3, those are beyond your control. Don’t even bother engaging trolls even to diffuse them, they’re only interested in popping off. 1, 4 and 6 seem decent. Also remember to just keep in keeping on, some folk just want to cause mayhem and discord.
I remember the early internet days when the rule was “don’t feed the trolls.” Feels like that definitely got lost somewhere.
I definitely concur. 1, 4, and 6 are good.
#2: No one in the history of people being told to “calm down” has ever calmed down, so I wouldn’t get your hopes up at being the first to succeed at that.
#3: Like the commenter above said, that’s outside your control. However, if they ask for clarification on something you said, and you’re pretty sure they’re sincerely asking, then by all means.
#5: Yeah, they’re just there for the mayhem. Block and move on.
write in the largest text for readability and assert dominance
Sorry but 3 I would say write clearly, with studies and make sure you are well educated in the points you are making.
I don’t think people are apposed to being told differently, although I would say don’t exhaust yourself repeating these point. Some people are opposed to your ideas and that’s fine
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.
No you can’t force ideas on someone. I thought I was more describing the leading to water part
I was being pithy for entertainment purposes, mostly my own. I apologize if I offended or created a misunderstanding.
Not offended, just thought I had worded my comment in a way that confused. Thank you
Don’t pick battles. You probably don’t give enough of a shit about whatever xXbangedUrMum420Xx spent there entire life doing and he has nothing better to do than to win the fight. Your trolling yourself by wasting your time.
If you keep getting offended, no matter how right you are, your usually in the wrong space. Check before you move in, and block what causes you stress. You may have to move through no fault of your own, or chase out newcomers causing issues, but can’t win the numbers game alone.
Without conformation, play as every bit of info as if it could be potentially lying. If it’s important enough for you to care, you will have know enough to find whats true. It’s almost impossible to know who’s lying, shilling, or a bot. You got to verify what you read, and take the L when you half assed your fact checking.
Don’t dox yourself/It’s posted forever. xXbangedUrMum420Xx will swat you or send your mom your nudes over his skill issue, and is not in your legal jurisdiction.
Lurk in places you don’t agree with on occasion, interact genuinely if you choose to interact. You get perspective, even if you found a bunch of paint huffing schitzos.
Be genuine, everyone can tell when its bait/BS, even if it’s too late. It’s a lot more fun to have a small genuine interactions than to farm engagement or upvotes.
Some one read your post, even if they didn’t/can’t interact.
I have found that one really effective way to defuse a combative argument, without leaving or arguing forever, is to just ask one question:
“Are you curious to understand what I am saying?”
The phrase “curious to understand” is important, because it appears to be anathaema to trolls, but it is absolutely necessary to a genuine conversation. It is a humbling position to be in that gives power away to the other person. I have never seen anyone pretend to agree to be curious who has then gone on to continue to troll. If they do admit genuine curiosity, it can help defuse a fraught conversation and lead to a better conclusion. This has happened a handful of times in my experience.
They will usually try to find some way to deflect. It will usually boil down to: “I am not curious because I believe I already know what you’re saying.”
Recently I had someone say, “I am curious to understand why [aggressive twisting of my words].”
Point out that they haven’t admitted to being curious, and that it’s clearly not worth continuing if they can’t admit such a thing.
In both cases you can simply point out that they are wrong about what you are saying - because if you had to ask this question then they are usually badly reinterpreting you. You can point out that a curious person would want to fix their misunderstanding.
I also usually say that I am curious to understand them but that I am struggling to and I would like them to answer my questions in order to help. Again, usually by the time I’m asking this, they’ve ignored several direct questions.
Stay genuine and inquisitive, but insist on the importance of this question and do not get dragged into sparring about the issue. Just allow them to burn all their credibility dodging this question. They very quickly look like a fool doing this and usually the downvotes will follow. After a couple of replies they’ll have given you ample reason to tell them that if they can’t even pretend to be curious then it’s not worth talking to them.
>They will usually try to find some way to deflect. It will usually boil down to: “I am not curious because I believe I already know what you’re saying.”
understandably. some people are very familiar with a topic, and have good reason to believe they understand not only what you’re saying, but the people who have influenced your position (for and against), and maybe even had this exact conversation before.
however.
IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO A GENUINE CONVERSATION
this isn’t to say you need to be interested in a genuine conversation, or that all of your interlocutors are or sohuld be interested in a genuine conversation. there are so many fora for discussion, and even more people who will visit those fora than will actively participate. in many ways, the internet is a battleground for ideals. it is understandable (and perhaps even good) that people will enter dialogues without an interest in a genuine conversation.
i haven’t actually finished reading the rest of your comment, but i do want to leave this comment with this: characterizing people who aren’t interested in genuine conversation as “trolls” is worse than pointless: it actively encourages people to regard disagreement as trolling. imagine being an expert on astrophysics specializing in planetary mechanics, and telling a flat earther they’re dead wrong, then being accused of being a troll.
You don’t give up. Do you?
So, you admit that you think engaging in conversation without curiosity is good actually, and that you haven’t read the rest of my comment. If you had, you might have found this part interesting:
In both cases you can simply point out that they are wrong about what you are saying - because if you had to ask this question then they are usually badly reinterpreting you. You can point out that a curious person would want to fix their misunderstanding.
I also usually say that I am curious to understand them but that I am struggling to and I would like them to answer my questions in order to help. Again, usually by the time I’m asking this, they’ve ignored several direct questions.
I absolutely was not characterising every disagreement as trolling, and if you were curious enough to read the entirety of my comment, you might have noticed this.
I was going to ask what kind of useful conversation you think can be had when someone isn’t curious to understand the other person, but I actually was curious enough to read your comment, and you gave an example. If the flat earther is genuinely curious to understand the answers to their questions - some are and many have changed their views after being convinced - but the astrophysicist is not curious, then the flat earther is the better person in that exchange. The flat earther could be convinced, but not by someone incurious to understand them. The astrophysicist won’t get anywhere by blindly throwing facts at them and expecting them to listen. Flat earthers don’t all believe the same thing, and we’re all wrong about something. If you want to engage someone like that, you need to ask questions and learn what they believe. Without that you can’t help them understand you.
Conversation is a two way street, always. Treating someone like they’re beneath you is not only going to prevent you from understanding them in any way, it will prevent you from being able to communicate back. The loss of curiosity is the loss of thought, of community, of reality, of humanity.
>Treating someone like they’re beneath you
i never said you should do that
What the fuck are you doing.
Stop spamming my inbox please. Read what I’ve written, formulate a reply, and keep things in one place. I am not interested in whatever this is.
don’t tell me what to do
So I need to ask at this point, are you at all curious to understand what I have to say?
sure. i’ve read every word in this thread. i DO think i understand what you’re saying, but it’s possible you have more to explicate than you’ve already provided.
if you like, i could help you find the block button
>So, you admit that you think engaging in conversation without curiosity is good actually
sometimes
>but the astrophysicist is not curious, then the flat earther is the better person in that exchange
curiousity is not a litmus test for being a good person. the astrophysist is justified in not being curious
>you haven’t read the rest of my comment
i have, now, but i didn’t find anything else to respond to (or edit about my initial response)
>Flat earthers don’t all believe the same thing, and we’re all wrong about something. If you want to engage someone like that, you need to ask questions and learn what they
but if all you want is to publicly correct them so that others aren’t swayed by their claims, then asking questions serves no purpose.
>I absolutely was not characterising every disagreement as trolling
and i didn’t say you were
My steps in engaging in polite conversation on the internet are:
Explain my point as clearly and concisely as possible.
Try to be respectful of differing opinions and keep an open mind.
Realize that mistakes happen, apologize for my mistakes and admit when I’m wrong. Also, be forgiving of the mistakes of others, point out any mistakes but do so as gently as possible.
Ignore people that are either intentionally misunderstanding you or aren’t making an effort to understand you.
I think the first two points are obvious and most people follow them, it’s the last two that a lot of people struggle with, even myself at times, but I’m working on it. I think the worst thing you can do on the internet is trash someone’s entire idea just because they made one tiny mistake. And putting in effort with trolls will quickly exhaust you, so you need to learn to identify and ignore them.
3: Don’t write walls of text like I do. You won’t stop assumers from putting words in your mouth, you’re just giving them more room to do so.
4: always take context into account when interpreting what others say.
In special, be aware that words and expressions change meaning depending on the context.
Doubly true when the word is “you”, as it can convey a single person (thou), a group (you guys), or nobody (one).
5: if by “troll” you mean that guy who’s throwing a matchstick into a pile of metaphoric straw: step back and enjoy the show. Optionally highlighting that the person is trolling.
If however you mean people pushing an agenda, I think that you can deal with them roughly like I deal with people acting braindead. It’s a choice between:
- chewing them out. Make sure to have argumentation at hand, not just insults. And only do this if you got a bucket full of patience, as you’ll need to outlast the troll.
- ignore them. Be aware that uncontested trolls will have an easier time pushing their agendas.
- report button. If you trust the mods enough to do so.
6: be cooperative; don’t be charitable. Users showing excessive entitlement or irrationality should not be helped out, otherwise you’re doing a disfavour for everyone else.
Say what you genuinely think, even if this might hurt someone’s feelings. It’s actually less rude than a white lie.
Don’t vomit uncalled advice. If someone asked (implicit or explicitly) for input, it’s fine to give yours; but don’t go out of your way to boss them around.
Discuss the topic, not the other person. If you feel the urge to say “you seem to believe/think/[whatever]…”, step back and consider removing it.
Don’t assume. Specially things that you cannot reliably know. Such as what the other people think, believe, feel; you know at most what they say, act accordingly.
Do not oversimplify things. Attention to the details is a must. In special, to levels of certainty over a statement.
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Others covered it
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If both participants are acting in good faith then probably it is a miscommunication. Either they interpreted your statement or intent wrong, or you made an offensive remark or worded your communication rudely. Or other things that I can’t think of. Understand why, respond apologetically and address the miscommunication.
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Mostly it is on them to try to understand your point unless you didn’t communicate clearly. I think the best way is to actually start with and focus on #4, understand their POV.
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Don’t think of your rebuttal right away. Focus on wanting to understand their position well enough to argue in favor of it. If something doesn’t make sense, explain what you thought they meant and ask if that’s right, or ask them clarifying questions but assure them you’re trying to understand their viewpoint. Try to verify what they said by summarizing it in your own words and ask if your summary is accurate. When people feel understood, and feel the other person wants to understand, it reduces hostilities and encourages the other person to seek to understand your point.
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Humor, calling out their technique (nice gish gallop), or just downvote and ignore. Take a look at the rest of the alt right playbook series on YouTube.
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Approach with genuine curiosity, without judgement. When people share their lived experiences, don’t invalidate them. Try to step back from emotional reactions and accept it as true. You can learn a ton from experiences others have that you’ve never had. It can give great insight if you are willing to imagine yourself experiencing what they did. It’s best to shut up and listen. If you find it upsetting it may be because it challenges your view of the world. Let it. It is quite possible your view is biased by your lived experience. Always question your own views and assume you could be wrong about everything. Be willing to change your internal model of the world when you get good evidence. Think skeptically and scientifically. Use the Baloney Detection Kit.
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Chat, debate and speak freely but without malice or bad faith. Be honest but not unkind. Never attack the other person.
If the other person is unfair, unkind it just rude … just stop and move on. There are hundreds, thousands, millions of people to connect with online. Don’t get hung up on one person that doesn’t make you feel good or is unlikeable … move on.
Some individuals just go online to fight or be disagreeable and nothing you say will ever make them happy … sometimes what makes them happy is your unhappiness.
So when you run into someone that doesn’t make you feel good online … move on.
Learn to recognize when it isn’t worth engaging further with someone. The point of discourse is to convince, inform or otherwise change how someone else sees something. If it is apparent that the person you are enging with isn’t going to do any of that or that you won’t, moce on and drop the conversation. It isn’t worth either of your time.
You’re not there to convince anyone. Just state your position succinctly and clearly. What the other person makes of it is up to them.
But everyone knows they’re idiots anyway so it doesn’t matter.
- Don’t be a jerk
- If someone else is being a jerk and you aren’t in charge, give up and leave.
- #2 but you are in charge, get rid of them
- Don’t be a jerk
“Don’t be a jerk” is the theoretical core principle of most of the religions of the world. Pity the practical implementation is sub- optimal.
Don’t
