Trump is worse. This doesn’t paint Biden any better for standing by spectating people’s bloodlines being wiped away. You can yell at leftists all you want. The infinite loop of comprising your morals got people here not people wanting to change direction for something better. “We can vote Biden then focus on the next election for something better.” We all heard that one before.
Ok so have fun never voting in another election again I guess?
Heard that in 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2020, and oh hey! (checks the box)
You don’t fix our fptp system by throwing away your vote for POTUS. For even if it magically works, and a third party wins, it will just quickly revert back to two parties. It solves nothing and is just a dumb vanity vote. The POTUS vote now is a strategic one.
If you want to fix the system, you work from the bottom up to get the way we vote changed.
You don’t fix FPTP with blind loyalty either. That gets you where we are, right back in the gilded age.
I said nothing about blind loyalty, only about strategically using your vote in the presidential election.
Yet you demand it so stridently.
Vote strategically = you must be loyal
I guess. Lol
Funny how it always turns out you have to hold your nose and vote for the “correct” person even if you vehemently disagree with them.
If you want change here, it comes from the bottom up. But likely the most effort you want to put in is vainly checking the box next to a third party for POTUS: no effort but you can fool yourself into believing you’ve made a statement.
strategic voting is what leads to party consolidation.
Yes, humans acting rationally in a fptp system is what leads to a two party system. This is exactly the point. Or are you arguing that people should just vote randomly?
being locked into a two-party system is not rational.
People have been saying this for over 40+ years and liberals have lead the direction of the party with no results for working class people. If there was ever a time to show you’re not locked into the duopoly now would be the time between two genocidal old men. People would suck it up and vote for Biden if at least attempted to show some backbone and stand for something. But every time he gets the chance he just works with Right Wingers on some bipartisan bs adopting their policies and direction.
You completely ignored my point and just reiterated the same talking points.
If you want to change the system, it’s not done by voting for a third party for POTUS. As I said, doing so is just vanity and does nothing to fix the problem. The problem is solved at the grassroots level.
You don’t like the rules, neither do I. But the solution to changing the rules is not to not play the game, but to work to change the rules where the rule changes actually happen. Not playing the game just helps the least desirable team win.
Nobody has said to skip the work of working from the bottom in state and local elections. People do support those campaigns and even when they do they have to fight against Dems and GOP locking them out of being choices there as well. The infinite loop of picking the nicer fascist isn’t doing anything as well.
The infinite loop of picking the nicer fascist isn’t doing anything as well.
That’s the whole point: your goal to change how we can reasonably vote in the POTUS vote, does not happen when electing the POTUS, so expecting electing the POTUS to change this makes no sense.
It has to come from elsewhere. While I strong disagree with the classification, you’re stuck voting for the “nicer fascist” less you end up with the worse fascist.
The US has also been an inherently conservative country for 40+ years, and it is only just now gaining a substantial left wing presence.
It is only since the Internet went wide that leftists in the US have been able to get unbiased attention. We were always here, but it’s hard when even MSNBC compared your ideas to dictators in the 1990’s and 2000’s before jumping on the bandwagon (but only if private corporations can get their middle man profiteering on).
You’re thinking of things wrong and it’s leading you to silly conclusions.
Voting for president is not about voting for the person that will solve of our problems.
Stop looking to the state to solve our problems, that is not it’s purpose, it does not have this ability.
Real problems are solved by people.
Voting for U.S. president is a strategic choice we’re allowed every four years, choose the option that makes your life and/or job easier. If you’re really concerned about genocide, choose the option for president that will make your job of anti-war activist easier and safer.
Understand that many of your anti-war allies are LGBTQ, and that if Trump wins, he is almost certainly going to make it much harder for your allies to survive, let alone be activists. Why would you throw your allies under the bus to make an ideological point like 16 people on Lemmy will see?
I don’t know about them but I don’t care about 16 people on Lemmy. I care about 16 people in charge of the democrats. I want them to see they cannot hold power without the left.
I want them to see they cannot hold power without the left.
Ok, I get that, but if the Democrats don’t win, who does? Obviously the Republicans right? Is that an improvement? If Republicans destroy democracy (as they have been crystal clear about), what use is sending messages relevant to electoral politics?
If we can only vote for one party then democracy is already dead. Then what’s the point of voting at all?
The point of voting is not to choose the candidate that will fix everything and give up if there isn’t one, it’s to choose the the option that will make your life easier, even if just a little. If you want the world to be a better place, one candidate will make your job risky and dangerous by putting left wingers in prison and supporting right wing violence, the other wont. Why make your life/job harder because you’re upset or frustrated? Why harm your LGBTQ comrades with your apathy?
Genocide Trump: Yes Biden: Yes
Make life hell for LGBTQ at home in the U.S. Trump: Yes Biden: No
The Democrats"fix" less and less every time we elect them. The bus isn’t going towards any stops I want to take. It’s going the other way, following the red line. I’ve tried filing complaints but they just go into the void. So I think it’s time for a new bus.
So I think it’s time for a new bus.
Me too, but jumping off a running bus onto flaming mini van full idiots isn’t going to help anyone.
Everything you hate about Biden is still going to be there under Trump only worse, and Trump is the only other option at this moment. You want better choices in the future, run for office, encourage people to run for office. As long as people like you are encouraging good people to forfeit electoral politics, only the worst people are going to be available as options to vote for.
So he’s gonna duplicate what’s going on right now?
Are you familiar with republican foreign policy?
Yes, it looks exactly like Democrat foreign policy, Republicans and Democrats use the same US imperialistic agenda to retain their power and dominance over other countries. When they both use people like Henry Kissinger as a foreign policy advisor, the end game is still the same
Keep it going! They are the same because history! They both USED Kissinger!
Foreign policy is clearly beyond your grasp.
With your approach… The end game seems to be ignorance.
Nuland, Blinken, Sullivan all have the same approach to foreign policy. Expand US imperialism and the interests of capital while slaughtering civilians.
They have so been slaughtered! This approach to US imperialism has totally solved for your concern.
If that’s what you think, it’s readily apparent that you don’t actually care about Palestinians, you just want to use them to score political points.
If you actually want to help then and prevent as many of their deaths as possible, your choice is clear. If you had the option to pull two levers, where one would keep the status quo and one would save just one Palestinian life, which would you pull?
I oppose the status quo, as anyone with a conscience should
If your only options were the status quo or things getting worse, you’d pick things getting worse?
Red and blue are defenders of the status quo. The DNC always providing a rotating villain to be afraid of enables their power and keeps the status quo protected
It must be nice living in a world where the DNC is all that’s keeping us from achieving progressive goals, and that if they went away, all of our problems would be solved.
It’s an ignorant but comfortable worldview, isn’t it? All we have to do is beat the rotating villain and the DNC and then we’ll get everything we want and a happy ending. The bad status quo will go away and everyone will agree with us because our ideas are the best.
It needs to be replaced with a party that actually represents the people. There’s no room in the country for two right-wing parties and that’s what we currently have
The day Trump was hailed as “presidential” seeming, the one time in his entire administration, was when he dropped a giant bomb in the Middle East.
I really hope you see the difference between him and Biden.
So the difference is that Trump will drop a MOAB and kill hundreds…
And Biden will send 300,000 massive bombs to a genocidal warlord to kill tens of thousands?
I’m not trying to defend Trump, but I’m confused by your logic.
I think we all knew this of President Drink Bleach, and we saw how he tear-gassed protesters that time when he held a Bible visibly for a photo shoot.
Trump’s issue, I optimistically believe, is that those who wrote “Uncommitted” during the primaries and those who point out the ongoing genocide will still vote for Biden - because everyone has already correctly assumed what this article is stating.
Nonetheless, it’s reaffirming to have confirmation. Thank you for posting this.
Tear-gassed a priest with those protestors as well just fyi.
The important part is to align him with Biden and shit all over everything.
It doesn’t matter if there is a republican giving full throated support… if a democrat even seems icky…
Convincing people that no matter who you vote for, we’ll keep paying for the genocide is not a good strategy.
All that will do is make empathetic people not vote, and when turnout is low, republicans win.
Dems can’t run in fear based politics about what the other side wants to do, the people that shit works on are already Republicans.
Dem voters want to hear about what Dems will do to help.
It is very very hard to change that, because it’s literally how our brains work.
Dems tend to have larger prefrontal cortex (empathy and critical thinking) while Republicans have waaaay more amygdala activity (fear, flight/fright/freeze).
What appeals to one group, doesn’t appeal to the other. But both groups cater to conservatives and hope they can guilt trip high empathy voters.
https://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.16030051
The people running the Dem party need to learn some fucking empathy and realize just because deep down they’re closer to conservatives than liberals, and that voters aren’t motivated by the same shit.
I mean, we could just replace party leaders with empathetic people who understand their voters, but I’m not holding my breath.
Did you seriously just turn trump talking about deporting us citizens because they are saying something he doesn’t like into “but here is why the democrats suck”?
Democrats do need a clearer distinction between themselves and Republicans on this issue.
If the Dems only standard is:
Not trump
While I agree it’s good to at least maintain that, it’s not enough to get the votes need to beat Trump.
It barely worked when he was in office, why wouldn’t 24 be more like 16 than 20?
I don’t think people understand that when the candidates are as bad as Biden and trump, that being an incumbent is a disadvantage.
If you think people want Biden as president, you’re not paying attention
This isn’t about Biden or Trump, at least not directly. This is about trying to save as many Palestinian lives as possible, assuming you actually care about them and aren’t just using them for political points.
The ideal situation is that the war ends and Israel completely fucks off. But the ideal solution is not a viable option currently. One candidate is keeping the status quo while criticizing Israel, or and the other candidate wants to intensifying the bombings and attacks on civilians and praises Israel.
Forget the names behind the candidates. Are you truly telling me that there’s no difference between these two candidates, and that one option does not kill countless more Palestinians than the other option?
The ideal situation is that the war ends and Israel completely fucks off.
That will never happen with Biden.
I don’t know why you don’t understand it, maybe you’re just too used to his actions never following his words?
But he’s been saying nothing will ever lessen his support for Israel for about 50 years now…
This is one of his few promises he’s definitely keeping.
I know that’ll never happen. That’s why I said it’s an ideal that won’t happen. What I’m talking about is picking the candidate who’ll kill fewer Palestinians and may listen to reason, over the one who’ll crush any dissent over the war and urge Netanyahu to continue.
and may listen to reason
Biden has spent literally 50 years in office and has been saying nonstop nothing would ever erode his support of Israel…
Nothing
And his actions back up his words here.
You think it’s a coincidence this is happening while he’s US president and Netanyhu was about to be ousted from power?
You know the bulk of the killing in concentration camps was when the nazis knew they were going to lose?
Bibi and his extremists were going to lose power, somehow one the planets biggest intelligence agencies let an attack thru on the anniversary of an attack during a music festival blocks away from the border?
I’m not saying Israel orchestrated it, but they definitely turned a blind eye to a perfect recipe for an attack and used it as an excuse to commit a genocide while they still had the power to do so.
And Biden spending 50 years saying he will unilaterally support Israel over everything certaintly played into any discussions about how this would go. Along with trump being the opponent being pretty much the only way Dem voters would vote for a Dem who wants to fund a genocide and crack down on his own voters for protesting.
This shit isn’t ok.
How do you propose we communicate that to DNC and Biden while shutting up and voting for Biden?
I think there is very much an argument for working to get Democrats we actually WANT to vote for down ballot so that we actually have someone “good” in 4 years.
Having the other candidate openly talk about violating the rights of a significant part of the country is not that moment. And the fact that you want to turn this into an attack on the Democrats makes me REALLY suspicious of what your actual motives are.
Having the other candidate openly talk about violating the rights of a significant part of the country is not that moment
This is Trump’s 3rd election…
Why are Dems still running unpopular candidates like Biden?
If all that matters is beating trump like they’ve been saying for over a decade, why dont we run a candidate that’s popular with voters?
Why run an old conservative just because trump is worse?
You know this isn’t the norm right? Do you not remember Bill and Obama’s first campaigns?
That’s the type of campaign we need, otherwise there’s a good chance Biden loses.
You can be mad at it, it you can accept it. But Biden isn’t popular due to his words and actions
Obama was HEAVILY criticized for his, quite frankly excessive, use of drones in assassinations.
And Clinton had a LONG history of controversies even before he ran for office.
Regardless, Biden is the incumbent. Replacing him is the Democrats saying that they have no faith in the president.
Again, there is a lot of reason to discuss how to salvage the Democratic Party. But not really one where the opposition is talking about illegally deporting protesters.
Keep this up and people will assume you are just a dumbass tankie who is regurgitating Russian and CCP talking points.
They were young and charismatic…
No one said they were perfect but they were popular with voters.
Biden isn’t young, and he’s not charismatic. So he’s not popular with voters.
Are you forgetting how close 2020 was? Don’t be fooled when vote totals go up, they always go up with population. But even to get trump actively out of office, Biden pulled an embarrassing percent of eligible voters.
This election he’s less popular, and frankly he didn’t really have any room to spare.
You’re talking about this like reality matters, not perception.
And next time, at least put your insults at the front, I wouldn’t have typed all that if I’d seen it.
Why are Dems still running unpopular candidates like Biden?
Because he’s the sitting President and leader of the Democratic party. I don’t understand why this simple fact is so hard to understand.
There’s only one person who can decide Biden shouldn’t be the nominee and that’s Biden. See Johnson in '68. Johnson chose to step aside.
You’re 1000% correct with this analysis
Dems can’t run in fear based politics about what the other side wants to do, the people that shit works on are already Republicans.
This is what’s so disheartening about the modern day DNC, as this seems to be their only campaign strategy since 2016. In a way, what they’re actually doing is normalizing and manufacturing consent for the repugnantcon platform.
“Not Trump” is the lowest possible bar, and the most pathetic part about it is sometimes Biden manages to fall short of it. Get off the fear based bs and lead with some substance Dems!
That is so messed up. Makes Biden look quite reasonable on the Gaza issue in comparison.
Trump legit wants to nuke Gaza.
Biden isn’t handling the situation well, but Trump wound be orders of magnitude worse.
This is what people have been trying to say. Biden isn’t doing a great job, but Trump would be infinitely worse. If you actually care about the Palestinians instead of scoring political points, there’s a very clear choice who to vote for.
Really? What’s different about this and what Biden is actually doing? Biden doesn’t say the quiet part out loud. That’s it. That’s the only difference.
Yes, Trump agrees with neoliberals regarding anti-genocide protesters.
Well yes because neoliberalism is the ideology of American conservatives. It’s a conservative ideology. People keep saying “neoliberal” to mean Democrat but really it’s bush sr and jr-era Republican politics. There are some neoliberal tendencies among the democrats but it is decidedly a conservative ideology proposed by the Republican Party.
https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/comments/ggu3wr/im_governor_jared_polis_of_colorado_former/
Yet, Jared Polis identifies as neo liberal. And identifies Pete Buttigieg as one too.
It’s the ‘kind face’ of colonial capitalism. In my opinion. Fascism the scary face. Both lead to corporate feudalism as far as I can tell. One faster and with less chance to use democracy to improve conditions for the poor through safety nets and unions.
But people aren’t all one thing. Biden has shown that with his relationship with unions.
Like I said, there are neoliberal tendencies among democrats. But to call them “neoliberal” is not accurate. You can’t support government programs like they do and be a neoliberal. It’s antithetical. Neoliberalism is an almost rigid orthodoxy that the free market/invisible hand will solve literally everything. The economy, societal woes, foreign policy, you name it. Deregulate and privatize everything not nailed down. The modern Democratic party isn’t remotely like that.
That’s fair. I’ve always been a bit surprised that Jared Polis self identifies that way tbh.
Some folks really do all but worship the invisible hand it’s a bit bizarre.
I also do understand why people call Democrats “neoliberals” but I just can’t help and go to the mat over it lol
Some folks really do all but worship the invisible hand it’s a bit bizarre.
They do seem to be of the opinion that it’s attached to the wrist of God, yes.
But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
let’s ask the Gazans if they want Trump or Biden to win in November
If they want any chance in hell, they pick Biden.
Trump rolls out the red carpet for Netanyahu and tries to secure the rights to build a hotel and golf resort on the beach in Gaza.
you wanna hold your breath with me while we wait for that chance Joe “Im a Zionist” Biden gives them?
If that’s your best option, that’s what you have to do.
This is how logic and critical thinking work.
Can you provide a better alternative?
I’d say Jill Stein would probably be the best option for them of the choices we have.
I don’t think Stein is still the Green Party candidate, if that’s what you’re referencing
The “Best Option” placed 4th in 2016 and her party did worse in 2020:
2016:
Donald Trump Republican 62,984,828 - 46.09%
Hillary Clinton Democratic 65,853,514 - 48.18%
Gary Johnson Libertarian 4,489,341 - 3.28%
Jill Stein Green 1,457,218 - 1.07%2020:
Joe Biden Democratic 81,283,501 - 51.31%
Donald Trump Republican 74,223,975 - 46.85%
Jo Jorgensen Libertarian 1,865,535 - 1.18%
Howie Hawkins Green 407,068 - 0.26%Yeah, more people should be voting for her. Like, if you care about stuff like Biden using emergency powers to bypass congress to send missiles to Israel to help kill more Gazan civilians.
Do you mean russian asset Jill Stein?
she’s not a russian asset. this is libel.
You talking about that one photo? You wont believe who else has been to Russia several times.
She’s not an option given the current state of the democratic system used in the country.
The only way it works is if people banded together and changed the system, then a 3rd party system becomes viable.
sure she is, votes count the same for her as for anyone else.
Actually if they want a chance they will go with a wild card because they already know what Biden would do.
If you think trump is a wild card on this topic I really don’t know what to tell you.
Based on this article, I think they’d want Biden.
There is a very clear choice now, that many of us have been trying to explain. Trump would be infinitely worse for Palestinians, and he proves it to you here. If you actually care about the Palestinians, it’s clear which of the two you should vote for.
If you only care about scoring political points however and using the Palestinians as pawns to that end, I could see why your voting decision would be more challenging.
I dont think you understand how dire things are for palestinians right now. Even if Trump were elected and Gaza was completely wiped off the map, he’d only be responsible for like 10% of the destruction. Its about to be completely gone, Rafah is the last place in Gaza and its already being bombed. Really tired of this lame excuse for Bidens genocide.
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
Okay. How is trump better for human rights? Or… anything.
Take your time.
In what way did I even argue anything was better with trump?
And just makes it worse when Biden is doing some of his polices.
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
The only reason it “makes sense” to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Yeah in response to
But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Bidens literally continuing trumps immigration policy and trying to get even more right wing immigration policy in.
The only reason it “makes sense” to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Do you think pointing out how Biden is bad can only mean a person in pro trump?
Again where did say anything about trump good?
Of course Trump is worse.
Now let’s not pretend that the Democratic Party has any love at all for these protestors. Let’s not pretend that the prevailing sentiment in this community isn’t that these protestors should shut up and stop criticizing US support for Netanyahu’s genocide because they’re worried it makes Biden look bad.
Biden thinks the protestors have a First Amendment right to speak out. Repubs want them attacked by the National Guard and/or deported to a war zone.
No he doesn’t. He wouldn’t be painting them as violent protests that allows everyone to dismiss their first amendment rights if he did.
I did not mention Biden’s opinion regarding the protestors.
Yes, that’s why it’s important someone did mention it.
Yes, it’s vitally important to change the subject and argue against something I didn’t say.
You guys never have the courage to say what you mean, just hint at it. Say what you mean.
Thank god I have centrists to tell me that I mean tons of shit I don’t say.
So what are you going to do about it?
Vote for Biden in November and criticize his support for genocide until he stops. I’ve said this more than a few times already.
Let’s pretend about that world…
As trump gasses these folks…
But it’s someone else gassing people… it’s not the same republicans that did it back in the day with the patriots act. No that was different…
The prevailing attitude on Lemmy seems to be that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Comments that don’t support the protesters are quite rare.
Israel is sure doing their best job to try and make that the prevailing attitude. And frankly, I don’t know that I disagree anymore. Get the civilians out of harms way, and then wipe out the government and the IDF, alongside Hamas.
Not many people outside of the full-on tankie brigades are arguing that Israel has no right to exist as a country. On the other hand, they are arguing that Palestinine also has a right to exist as a country, and that the land that Israel has unjustly taken, and continues to take, should be returned. And that Israel should need to make reparations for the Palestinian non-combatants they’ve killed, and the land they’ve stolen.
It’s clear that Israel as a country will never allow Palestinians to have a full voice in their government, so the only reasonable choice at this point is a two-state solution.
What do you want us to do come November about it?
Vote for Biden, of course. There’s no better choice, to my utter dismay.
See this is what drives me crazy though. I always see people write these big critiques of Biden, often even implying he’s basically the same as Trump, but they never go so far as to say “but pull the lever for Biden anyway.“ It’s why there is such a distaste for the endless critiques on lemmy of Biden by many of us. Because there is kind of this implication that you either shouldn’t vote or you should at least not vote for Biden. Some folks like you, and I’m not saying you do this, get so angry about anybody who says “vote for Biden anyway.” They act like we are unable to critique him. But really a lot of us are just coming from a place of pragmatism, and we get worried because the critiques need to close with at least something like “but do not vote Trump. The election is at our doorstep. Vote Biden.”
Real change won’t occur within the next few months. We need to stop Trump.
Real change won’t occur within the next few months.
Congratulations.
If you’re just going to start being flippant and unproductive when I’m trying to have a real discussion with you then we can just stop here. Have a good rest of your weekend.
Sorry. I’m coming to this with the understanding that delay means that many fewer living Palestinians and that much closer to Netanyahu completing his genocide. I consider this situation to be too time-sensitive for incrementalism, and I have a tendency to regard calls for patience in the face of this to be callous.
I also firmly believe that Biden is harming his own chances of defeating Trump by supporting Netanyahu’s genocide, and that the future of democracy in the US rests on his willingness to cease his support.
If Biden does not change in the next few months, I fear things will get much worse and may never improve for the human species.
And let’s not pretend that the US isn’t a two-party system.
Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Your choices are Trump or Biden.
And I’m voting for Biden.
Then why are you campaigning for Trump?
@Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world is gonna twist it around, call you a centrist, and cry about being bullied. Don’t engage with this twat he’s a bad faith actor and a terrible one at that. A verified chucklefuck.
Removed, civility.
@Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world is gonna twist it around, call you a centrist, and cry about being bullied.
Now compare your fanfic to what actually happened.
I guess you’re conveniently forgetting about yesterday where you made an absolute fool of yourself and got caught lying.
Btw I’m STILL waiting on that answer.
Oh I know. Trust me, I don’t engage with these people with any illusions. There’s no arguing with the agitprop element here. The point of responding at all is just to identify them to the general public.
I’m not campaigning for Trump.
One can dislike Biden without liking Trump.
Question: Does this heightened level of nuance transfer onto a FPTP voting system?
Answer: absolutely not.
Your comment should read “One can dislike Biden without demanding voters elect a bigger dipshit”…
But it doesn’t.
This whole thing of “you need to lie about the facts to make one side look way better than they are or else you are campaigning for the other side” thing needs to go. It just needs to go. It isn’t fooling anyone, and it just makes everyone doing it come across as idiots. Own your stance, be honest about what we can all see, and try to explain why you feel like you do from base reality. I know you’ve been told it makes you a traitor or whatever, but it simply doesn’t. It makes you come across as a genuine person, and it makes the things you say have more weight.
Wow, that’s a lot of words just to set up a simple strawman. The people denigrating Joe Biden and the Democratic party are campaigning for the other one, either deliberately as agitprop elements or in ignorance as useful idiots. That’s not a novel principle, and it’s not unique to this election cycle. I’m happy to engage in nuanced, fair, complex discourse about US politics with anyone who wants to have it, and I have criticisms of my party. But that discourse isn’t happening here, and it’s not happening with these people.
These people are waving lit matches in the forest of US democracy and then becoming indignant when anyone suggests that things are really dry right now. And your position seems to be that I should be honest about the fact that sometimes a little fire is valuable. I hope you can understand why I think maybe you’re not being honest about your agenda.
My agenda is to see more honest discussions. It is not a hidden agenda. I am very open about it. I, and many other people, honestly believe that Joe is doing a horrific job. I also honestly believe that Trump would do a horrific job. I am disgusted by the fact that nobody who could potentially make it into the White House has shown anything but complete and utter contempt for the innocent lives in Gaza.
I absolutely refuse to pretend that Biden is great for Gaza in some pathetic attempt to trick idiots who somehow haven’t paid attention into thinking that Biden isn’t floating in am Olympic sized pool of children’s blood. I’m not saying Trump will do any better, and I’m not saying I will vote for Trump. All I am saying is that we will all be better off if vocal people like yourself were to at least try to have honest dialogs. No strawman, no hidden agenda, just plain, honest discussion. The thing that has offended you so deeply can be summed up in a single word. Honesty.
I’m happy to engage in nuanced, fair, complex discourse about US politics with anyone who wants to have it, and I have criticisms of my party.
Do tell. What criticisms do you have of the Democratic Party?
That is not at all what’s happening. The world is much less black and white than you think.
No sarcasm whatsoever - thank you.
So genocide vs more genocide. I know which one I’m voting for.
Biden
I haven’t read all of the comments, but here’s a fact I haven’t seen mentioned: The sociopathic narcissist doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Palestine, true, but he also doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Israel. He cares about himself, and will say or so anything to gain support and acclaim. He’s making this threat solely because it plays well to his donors.
THAT’S the scary part. If the authoritarians didn’t exist in our midst, he’d be a middle manager somewhere, instead of a contender for the office of President, again. THAT’S what we need to address, and the history of the past 30 or so years shows that getting a Democrat in office doesn’t fix anything. Electing Biden won’t make the authoritarians go away, which is why we’re back with as rematch of the 2020 election, with our democratic institutions four years weaker, and the vulnerable people in our society more scared and more under threat.
Who’s going to beat them in 2028?
They’re going to be dead or drinking fruit puree from a straw in 2028 both are at the end of their intellectual lives and being president heavily shortens what energy you have left. Neither will be doing much at all in 4 years. It’s why you should be looking at who the VPs are.
Well, my whole point here is that DJT is a symptom of the much deeper disease. It won’t be him in 2028. It will be another authoritarian, and we can count on that.
O absolutely, I don’t see the repubs going away from the continued drive right and unfortunately because of this, i don’t see the dems moving to a more progressive platform.
I voted for Howie Hawkins
Great that you voted, but third party basically throws your vote away in a first-past-the-post system.
Let’s look at three situations:
Scenario 1:
D: 1001 votes R: 1000 votes H: 0 votes
D wins
Scenario 2:
D: 1000 votes R: 1000 votes H: 1 vote
Tied election, decided by the House, so R wins
Scenario 3:
D: 999 votes R: 1001 votes H: 2 votes
R wins
This is why it makes enormous sense to avoid third parties in most of the US, and choose the major-party candidate you’d rather negotiate with.
I live in NY. My vote doesn’t matter anyway.
Both sides suck Zionist cock. The sooner people realize that the better.
True but that’s a false equivalence
These “I’m not gonna vote for Biden because my principles are too important” folks are really starting to piss me off.
Where were your principles last year? The year before? Where were they when Russia invaded Ukraine? What about the Rohingya? The Yazidi? How about here at home and what Republican power - in congress and across the courts? Where will they be if Trump wins and appoints another SCOTUS judge and packs the federal courts? When hundreds of transgender Americans are murdered? When women no longer have any autonomy over their bodies?
This isn’t about your principles. It’s not about you looking cool in a keffiyeh. This is about all of us on the left working together to reduce the most harm. You in your enormous privilege are not the main character here.
I mean seriously… get the fuck over yourselves you spoiled brats.
It’s privilege and laziness. They are likely white heterosexual men which means zero skin in the game. It’s the perfect issue to glomp on to justify sitting at home scrolling Facebook instead of going out to vote. Remember- the majority of Americans don’t vote, and in an increasingly politically hostile environment they’re going to need better excuses. Palestine is that excuse.
Obama gave people hope. Then Biden ran a very progressive campaign after Hillary lost a normal campaign. Our principles were always in play. Nothing has changed, Biden still has to earn votes and nothing Trump said is different from what Biden is doing. He’s just saying it out loud. For the record Israel just bombed a known refugee tent camp and this is what other countries are saying. This is what the White House said. Either Biden is a joke that keeps getting played by Netanyahu or Biden thinks we’re a joke. Either way is not going to win him votes. And his entire job is to win votes by representing the people. I doubt the kids being denied their college degrees care much whose in white house when the police stormed their protest encampment.
Biden still has to earn votes and nothing Trump said is different from what Biden is doing. He’s just saying it out loud.
You have to be in a position to not be affected by Republican policies to think that. Really to be single-minded about one issue, no matter how valid in itself, while ignoring everything else that affects so many so badly.
You may think you get virtue points for this but what you are showing is just how incredibly privileged and selfish you are.
I’m not doing it for “points”. The entire idea that this is some child’s game is the problem. People are already dying in massive numbers, here and abroad. Democrats want to just continue the status quo, while the republicans keep changing the status quo.
The entire idea that this is some child’s game is the problem
It’s precisely that you can’t wrap your head around the fact that this is NOT a child’s game where you get to personally pick - for everyone else - the one issue that matters to you this week that is the problem.
I suspect a lot of those people are arguing in bad faith and are actually spreading misinformation. That they never intended on voting for Biden, or always intended on voting for Trump and trying to make it seem like Biden is losing his base.
IRL, most people I know, while not happy with Biden’s response acknowledge that Trump’s view is much much worse.
The only difference between them is language. Both have no problem with slaughtering women and children and we are seeing it now. Biden doesn’t care and is supplying the weapons, just like he didn’t care when Lebanon was invaded.
I voted for Biden in 2020. At this rate I’m not voting for him in 2024.
I hope people realize that that Witcher quote “If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all.” was explicitly written to be wrong, and only served as a “Before” of a maturing character arc.
I don’t even remember that, was that from the books, games, or TV show? At any rate, no obviously I had no problem voting for him in 2020. In 2020 he wasn’t supporting the mass murder of civilians in Gaza and asylees in South/Central America. In 2020 he promised to do something to stop the red states from persecuting people. In 2020 we thought he’d have a sane plan for exiting Afghanistan and would bring our interpreters and civilian support out of the country, (Instead veterans had to go back over there and get them themselves in shit Hollywood’s going to make a movie about anytime now). In 2020 we thought he’d surge funding for the military mental health crisis. And so so much more.
Username checks out.
As long as you understand that not voting for Biden is 100% a vote for Trump (whether you cast a ballot or not) and you’re OK with that, then more power to you.
But I would ask, what do you think you’re achieving by not voting for him? If you voted for him in 2020 then you must hold personal ideals that at least semi-align with his, and you have to know that Trump’s are a complete 180 from them.
I’d also like to ask (since you imply you haven’t made up your mind) what Biden could do to change your mind?
Not rooting for the Eagles means you’re a Patriots fan 100%.
Stop gaslighting people.
It is more like the trolly problem, one is bad, the other is much worse. The difference is that whether you’re a fan of a football team or not it does not affect the outcome, but voting does affect the outcome albeit marginally.
The analogy isn’t about voting it’s about their vociferous defense of Biden and categorizing people as loyal or not. And the trolley problem likewise presents the problem as only having two tracks when history shows us that’s not true. There’s nearly infinite tracks. Including one where Biden comes around on Israel and wins the election.
Ahh I get it. So you’re 100% the person I was talking about in my first post.
Oh I’m arguing in bad faith because I called out your gaslighting? Conflating disillusioned voters with voters for the other team is a top tier propaganda technique meant to shore up base loyalty. And here you are executing it to a T.
Or you know, at no point did you actually engage in discussion. You used a false equivalent and rhetoric. Which is pretty much the textbook definition of a bad faith argument.
How is it gaslighting? Gaslighting isn’t simply making (unfounded) accusations.
You’re a moron. Thanks for fucking over the Country.
Sure buddy.
Loser.
Psh, I’m voting for him. I’m doing a lot of other stuff to improve society in ways I think are important, but when it comes to my presidential vote, Biden is the lesser evil in a voting system that requires I take that into consideration.
Well yeah, I’m not just sitting here complaining to the internet either. I just don’t think the democrats are ever going to turn around and stop chasing the republicans if we blindly vote for them. If they let the republicans go further and further to the right without chasing them then the republican party dies as another party replaces them. If the democrats go further and further right leaving the left unserved then the same thing will happen to them. I happen to believe that we’ve reached that point. The democrats have been chasing the republicans since Reagan.
I think this is what people call accelerationism, meaning you want to crash the plane so it can be rebuilt.
I get it… It’s very frustrating to have to choose a candidate you’re not excited for, or worse. I’d ask you if you have any loved ones who require healthcare, or anyone who’s LGBT, or someone non white. They’re the people who are most at risk with the hate mongering that’s going on with that guy’s base.
No, it’s not accelerationist to just withhold your vote. Accelerationists are going to do things to bring about the anarchy state they think we need to rebuild properly. So stuff like attacking the power grid or attempting to start a race war (for white supremacist accelerationists). Not voting for someone and working to create a new political party is how the system is designed to be used.
The answer is almost certainly no.
I think they’ve started to turn around in the last decade or so, but not fast enough for my liking. They definitely were heading to the right for a good long while before that though, especially on economic issues.
Biden’s shut down of the unions; sign off on immigration policies that are harsher than Trump’s; protectionist gift to the donor class wrapped in climate change; and stance on Gaza and the protestors convinces me they aren’t. They talked a good game in 2020 but showed they understand how to play the game pretty much right away. They restored some rational stuff for COVID but other than that they ran to the right right away.
You are not on the left.
Being pro-palestine is not the definition of the left, the truth is things would only be worse for Palestine if Trump is elected, and in exchange for this punishment of the Dems the potential losses are immense and not just for Palestine. Being pro-palestine is very popular among the far right as well, and they are cheering for Trump just the same as you have been implicitly.
Liberalism and the Democratic Party are on the right. Joe Biden was friends with Strom Thurmond. Joe Biden demonized “busing” and other programs to integrate schools. Joe Biden cheered the slaughter of women in children in Lebanon in 1982. Biden is basically Trump but with more eloquence. Their actions are the same. Palestinians are getting slaughtered right now, protestors are getting beaten up and jailed right now. Trump is just the boogeyman Democrats use to get their voters to stop demanding anything.
Well put. The only principle we should be considering is saving as many lives as possible and preventing as much persecution as possible. Adherence to any principles which go against this simply shows those principles are not worth holding, not as absolutes at least.
Voting for the democrats isn’t saving lives though. The red states are just going ahead with massive civil rights violations anyways. If the democrats won’t step in to stop them then we don’t have a reason to vote for them anymore. The worst case scenario is already happening. It’s not in the future, it’s now.
Voting for the democrats isn’t saving lives though.
How do you prove or disprove this?
If the democrats won’t step in to stop them then we don’t have a reason to vote for them anymore
Do you not understand how our system of government works? Or do you just want some sort of left-leaning fascism? Admittedly, Bernie would make a great benevolent dictator… but that’s exactly the kind of thing that bites you in the ass eventually.
The president has more power than you think he does. Trump reminded us of that. And it’s simple to prove. What has he done to stop Abbot and DeSantis? He has how many federal law enforcement officers? And he hasn’t just arrested the Texas national guardsmen operating illegally on the border? Hell he could just call them to federal duty and send them to an ammo dump in Alaska.
If nothing else you’ve demonstrated your complete ignorance of how our political system works in this country. Well done!
Look up title 10 orders. The president is the commander in chief. If he won’t pull those guardsmen out of there it’s because he doesn’t mind what they’ve done.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
LOL. You are clearly ignorant of the practical implications of such things and more generally of how politics works in real terms.
Every action a president takes either gains or loses political capital. The president does not operate in a vacuum… indeed our entire system of government is designed to have checks and balances and specifically to keep the authority of a president confined.
I must say, you have such an incredibly simplistic view of this… it’s quite stunning. You literally sound like a MAGAt, begging for authoritarian control.
You are not going to get Arab-Americans to vote for Biden, forget it. You want us to carry water for someone slaughtering us while grinning. I voted for him in 2020 and that will be the last time I ever vote Democratic, the first time was for John Kerry in 2004. Voting Republican is of course not an option, it is third party from now on though I am making arrangements to leave the country. I am paying taxes to give myself PTSD watching Arabs get slaughtered with my tax money. I know most people don’t have the means to leave the US, but I do.
Biden could have stopped this genocide from day one, not only he didn’t but he continues to supply the weapons and political cover for Israel to continue massacring women and children. There’s enough Arab-Americans to swing the election one way or another. Biden and the Democratic Party will have to earn our votes rather than extract them from us by scaring us with Trump.
3rd party vote just goes to Cheato Mussolini
He won in 2016 despite me voting for Clinton. In 2020 I thought Biden couldn’t be worse, but I got a genocide. In 2024 I’m voting for someone I like for a change. Clinton too is never getting a vote from after she posted this. Cheering and justifying a genocide is where I part ways with the Democratic Party.
How could have Biden stopped it on day one? Really. Tell us.
By not sending weapons, by withholding financial aid, by not justifying the crimes and by not vetoing the U.N. ceasefire vote multiple times. Reagan and Bush Sr. were able to do so. No surprise that Thurmond-loving Biden is to their right somehow.
It’s your right to vote 3rd party, but doing so makes it only more likely that Trump will take office and ruin not just Palestine but the ability for Arab Americans and possibly every foreign born, and possibly non-white person in general, to live in the US. In our current political system, third parties count for nothing, it’s a wasted vote. I’m not thrilled by Biden either but voting for president has to be strategic.
wrong generalization bro , it’s actually muslim americans
You are funny. Arab Americans and Muslim Americans do overlap and both care deeply about Palestine, but are still two different groups. Most Arabs in the US are actually Christian, and the news article I linked to mentioned Arab Americans.
The article doesn’t seem to mention who these “donors” are… you know - the people with enough wealth to buy the politics the proles are constantly being told to “vote harder” for that seems quite happy to listen to their preferred stuffed suit talking about crushing dissent and accelerating ongoing genocide.
Is this supposed to be a full article? I’m confused by its brevity.
They forgot to get ai to fill it with irrelevant bullshit
I can’t wait to be deported back to Michigan.
But yeah sit this one out because Biden isn’t dramatically changing long standing us policy.
Either way Palestinians get slaughtered, but only one way Democrats will oppose it.
