I see the people who insisted that they had to keep doing the genocide for the election are still trying to blame everyone else
I see the people who obnoxiously shouted at everyone that bOtH SiDeS aRe tHe sAmE for months before the election are beginning to see that they’re not.
It’s too bad they have that commonality with MAGA in their shared lack of shame to admit it.
Now it’s OUR turn to tell you we told you so, only we’re far less smug about it.
And allowing Trump to return to power is stopping the genocide how exactly?
Because at this point it’s getting worse and there’s soon to be a second genocide going on here in the US.
Soo much better!/s
Yea, maybe you should have pressured Kamala to flip on this like I was posting about for a fucking year before the election. Instead centrists told Arabs, Latinos, the poor, and other minorities to fuck off and this is the result. Now you’re here pathetically posting stuff like this almost daily to make yourself feel better, but its really transparent and gross.
You entirely dodged the question.
How was allowing Trump to return to power stopping the genocide? How is it not worse?
Instead centrists told Arabs, Latinos, the poor, and other minorities to fuck off and this is the result.
Remember when you lot said “Fuck off, I don’t WANT the non-fascist candidate, let the fascist candidate who despises minorities and openly yearns for their death, win”?
Good times.
I’ll be sure to show up at your door vomiting blood when they strip Medicaid from the ‘unworthy’. Assuming that comes before the camps for those on psychiatric medication for ‘healing through labor’. And probably both of those will come before the Racial Hygiene laws, so I can’t do it after that.
Remember how I said I voted for her and have said I would be voting dem the whole time and you still insist I didn’t. I also said that Gaza would look really bad for them and would lose them michigan but you insisted that changing their mind was political suicide. So glad they listened to people like you.
Remember how I said I voted for her and have said I would be voting dem the whole time and you still insist I didn’t.
I don’t remember this, though it’s certainly possible, considering how many people playing stupid games I argued with during the lead-up to the election.
I also said that Gaza would look really bad for them and would lose them michigan but you insisted that changing their mind was political suicide.
My opinion on the public opinion on Gaza changed all the way back in March with the emergence of new polling numbers on US Dem and independent opinion on the genocide. Before March I said that it was impractical for the Dems to change their platform when the majority of Dems still supported Israel (or did not support the removal of aid, which amounts to the same thing). Having lived through the US electorate sleeping through Israeli genocide several times in my short life, I don’t think it’s ridiculous that I thought they’d sleep through it again, while us few who cared about foreign policy looked on in horror, as we had the last three times.
I did opine at several points after March that I understood why a change may not be a net gain since opinions were deeply divided, but that they should commit to an anti-genocide anyway, since either position had become a losing position with regards to large portions of the electorate.
So glad they listened to people like you.
Did Gaza protest votes lose the Dems the election or not? I wish you lot would make up your mind.
I think they contributed significantly, but I put the blame on the people who decided Genocide at all costs, aka the candidates.
I don’t think the genocide was the deciding factor. I don’t think winning over swing voters on both sides of the genocide would’ve saved us, unfortunately. The numbers which came in after election day were… not close enough, and the issue not rated highly enough by voters to make up the difference.
I put significant blame on Biden for ignorantly trundling forward for months despite internal polling telling him that he was cooked, some blame on Harris and her allies for running a shite campaign, and the overwhelming amount of blame on the ~90 million voters who said “I don’t care if fascism wins” and the ~77 million who said “I want fascism to win”.
In a just world, Biden would be reviled as the man who lost the republic, and I intend to put that forward regularly for as long as I can. In a just world, Harris’s political career would be dead. I’m less dedicated to that. But neither of their flaws or positions justifies letting fascism win. If Biden and Harris deserve a noose, even, that would still not mean that the electorate was not at fault. The final choice between fascism and a non-fascist regime was ultimately decided by the electorate, not the candidates. You can place blame on the chef who makes a burnt stir-fry and loses the contest for incompetence or malice, but in the end, it’s the judges who decided that they preferred the “Glass, arsenic, and dogshit sandwich” - or didn’t care enough to make a decision either way - who made the ultimate decision.
For those who sat by and let fascism win despite being nominally left-wing, this is essentially an expression of frustration.
This wasn’t even “Trump supports my one issue”. That would be ridiculous, but there’s a logic to it, if one legitimately values a single issue above all others. But it wasn’t. For all of them who stood by and let Trump win, they did so with the knowledge that Trump was worse on the issue they were supposedly protesting against.
It’s exhausting. To see people complain about support for genocide and then decide that if they can’t stop it, they’re okay with INCREASING support for genocide, and starting a few new ones for good measure.
And honestly, I’m only a little pissed that I’m in the sights of the regime, if not the first target (that, unfortunately, will be our trans countrymen and women). Mostly I’m pissed at the idea that ‘left’ people embraced injustice entirely without gain out of either spite or sheer empty-headed thoughtlessness. Are they the lynchpin? Would they have saved us? Probably not. Maybe if they put 100% in campaigning, but I can hardly blame them for not doing that. But they should have known better than to stand by and let fascism in. By the values they preach, they should have known better. And by the fact that most of them still prefer puffing up their inaction as some form of heroic resistance instead of a contribution to a literal fascist victory?
Well, forgive me for not wanting that narrative of ‘Inaction against fascism is heroic’ to take root, in case we still have elections in four years. God only knows what kind of margin of victory or defeat we’ll be dealing with.
And allowing Trump to return to power is stopping the genocide how exactly? Because at this point it’s getting worse
Uh… Big news, fella, there was a ceasefire. Kamala openly said during campaigning that under her rule America would always have “the most lethal armed forces in the world”.
Fuck off. Those of us who disliked Biden and thought Harris wasn’t enough held our contempt and voted against the bad man. Dems offered nothing compelling, only the stick of a worse outcome. Bring policies like healthcare, housing, and ending genocide and see what outcome you get instead.
But keep blaming progressives rather than fixing your failing party that now got us TWO wins for the bad man.
I can’t tell if you voted for Harris because you said you voted against the bad man but are being really defensive of the people who helped Trump win.
If you did anything but vote Harris, you did not vote against Trump in our shitty first-past-the-post system. Don’t kid yourself.
I voted against Trump. Voting for Trump wouldn’t be a vote against Biden. Reading further down thread with the attacks you have against another commenter, I don’t think you’re terribly literate at understanding people who disagree with you. It’s either that or disingenuous because you want to fight. Your pick.
If we’re going to start blaming people who let Trump win, let’s start with Joe Biden, who was too stubborn to drop out before the 2024 primary. Then, let’s move on to his aides, who kept his declining cognitive abilities from the public. Then let’s move on to any Democratic Party members who met with Biden before the 2024 election and were aware of his diminished capacity. Then let’s move on to the members of the DNC who decided to protect Biden from real primary challengers (they drove Dean Phillips out of politics for trying to run, by the way), despite the fact that 60% of Democrats wanted a different candidate.
Once we’re done blaming those people, let’s move on to blaming Harris, who did nothing to distance herself from Biden on Gaza despite knowing that it was polling very poorly with a base she needed to motivate. Then let’s blame her for adopting a flacid, middle-class oriented economic policy and abandoning the economic populism that worked in 2020. Let’s also blame Harris’ top strategists, Jen O’Malley Dillon, David Plouffe, Quentin Fulks, and Stephanie Cutter, who ran the same strategy of trying to flip moderate Republicans that lost in 2020.
Anyway, once we’ve held all those people accountable for letting Trump win, then maybe we can see if there’s any blame left for protesting leftists or apathetic working-class voters. And before you ask, yes, I voted for Harris. I just don’t hold the powerless accountable for the powerfuls’ mistakes.
I just don’t hold the powerless accountable for the powerfuls’ mistakes.
…So you agree advocating against Harris was a mistake? The thing that everyone else said would be a mistake?
How are these people any different than “I care about the economy” voters who never verified any of Trumps claims? Just a little mistake, nothing to hold against them.
…So you agree advocating against Harris was a mistake? The thing that everyone else said would be a mistake?
What the ever loving fuck are you talking about? You think when I said the powerful, i meant Muslims and anti-war protesters who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Harris? Or working-class voters who decided Harris’ shitty economic plan wasn’t worth standing in a poll line? And I guess you must have thought the powerless were the people who spent over a billion dollars campaigning with Mark Cuban? Is that how broken your brain is?
We’re talking voters, dude. No idea why you keep bringing up POWER as if people are incapable of blaming two things at once. The Democrats blew it, no doubt about it.
But anyone that didn’t vote for Harris helped Trump win.
It’s literally the first comment, dude. I detail a huge fucking list of powerful people who fucked up so bad the Democrats lost to one of the least popular Presidents of all time, then ended it with, “Anyway, once we’ve held all those people accountable for letting Trump win, then maybe we can see if there’s any blame left for protesting leftists or apathetic working-class voters.” It’s literally a politicians job to win elections, but this community is full of memes blaming the left because the Democrats suck at their job.
The existence of people more deserving of blame doesn’t absolve the people less deserving of blame for their faults. Stein voters/non-voters are not blameless here.
I despise the Democratic Party. That doesn’t make me less pissed off at the voters who campaigned against her
What the ever loving fuck are you talking about? You think when I said the powerful, i meant Muslims and anti-war protesters who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Harris?
It would seem that they felt that punishing the powerless for Harris’s mistakes was okay.
Seriously Pug? You think that Muslims watching their people get ethnically cleansed aren’t powerless? You think college students getting beaten by cops and accused of antisemitism for protesting a genocide aren’t the powerless? You think people exercising the tiniest amount of control they have over their democracy by withholding their vote means their not the powerless ones? How many groups are willing to scapegoat before you start holding people with actual institutional power accountable?
Seriously Pug? You think that Muslims watching their people get ethnically cleansed aren’t powerless? You think college students getting beaten by cops and accused of antisemitism for protesting a genocide aren’t the powerless? You think people exercising the tiniest amount of control they have over their democracy by withholding their vote means their not the powerless ones?
Your argument is that the powerless shouldn’t be held accountable for the sins of the powerful. Yet simultaneously, you claim that voters punishing American minorities with genocide and a fascist regime is justified, because of the sins of the Dem elite.
Sorry that you think that welcoming genocide is only bad when Dem elites do it, and not when voters ushering in fascism do it.
When liberals lose, they always blame someone else.
This is what happens when your campaign entirely consists of cringe memes, preaching “civility”, and talking about how eager you are to submit to the wills of the opposition.
Those of us who disliked Biden and thought Harris wasn’t enough held our contempt and voted against the bad man.
Yeah, except for the fact that I know a lot who didn’t. It might be a shock to you, but there was a big push in left-leaning communities here on Lemmy and elsewhere on the web to either not vote for Harris or not vote at all. It was so fucking full-force in major leftist communities with so little interest in Trump that I’m convinced it was a targeted disinfo campaign. One that worked.
Lemmy and leftists communities aren’t even a blip on the graph. Go to a PA town and ask them what lemmy is. Or what communism is for that matter. They voted trump because his misinfo campaign was way larger than the one you’re complaining about. And also because the democrats suck.
I love when people ignore parts of my comments for the sake of their argument.
Cope harder. Your comment sucked and I addressed the parts that were worth anything.
I think so too…
I see democrats are already doing their best to blame everyone but themselves. Can’t wait to see who you run against him for his third term. I’m sure whoever they are, they’ll be a carbon copy of Obama, like the last three elections you ran against Trump.
You guys just really fucking love losing.
I’m sure whoever they are, they’ll be a carbon copy of Obama…
You think Clinton, Biden and Harris are carbon copies of Obama?
You’re right, Obama could articulate a sentence.
Based
Translation: “I did everything I could to usher the fat orange fascist into power, but the DEMOCRATS are the ones to blame!!!”
Why are y’all so obsessed with third party voters lmao
If they can blame the voters then the DNC doesn’t need to change.
Sounds true… but if you remove one excuse, they will find another. They would rather go down with the ship than change.
After all, changing means losing thier cash flow and influence. Letting the reps win means they can probably keep those things for the rest of their personal lives. They’ll be dead before we become a true one party system.
Because it would be the solution to a better voting system
More parties are better, because there is never just black or wait (or better said just blue and red)
The world is more nuanced than that, but sadly this is already too complex for too many people.
I voted 3rd party in the last UK election, it probably helps that our system is 650 elections at once across the country. You are only voting for your local representative. But it is still FPTP which is pretty bad as a system, it’s still less shit than the US system though.
My thinking is that sure they won’t win this time but if support for them starts to increase (it is doing so) then the party may at some point put more focus on this area for a future election and win. This is how they have now got some influence and also if you look at the local level it takes even less. Most local council elections where I live are won with less than 1000 total votes because they cover pretty small areas. There are of course also cases where a party loses narrowly because of a 3rd party, a local one here had the minor parties fighting between each other and the incumbent national party came dead last with 5%.
OP has lost their shit over third party voters every day since the election.
THIRD-PARTY CAN WINNN!!
Show me the comments that said a third party could win the 2024 presidential election. Literally no one was saying that.
If I show you comments that say exactly that, will you eat your words, or deny it like you deny the Tiananmen Square massacre?
They might be wrong that no one was saying that, but there definitely wasn’t a significant voting block who thought a third party candidate had a shot at winning.
Blaming third party voters is a loser mentality. 77 million voted trump, 75 million Harris, and 101 million didn’t vote at all. How about blaming those people? Or blaming the party and candidate? If someone didn’t win the majority of the blame lies with the person running.
They might be wrong that no one was saying that, but there definitely wasn’t a significant voting block who thought a third party candidate had a shot at winning.
Blaming third party voters is a loser mentality. 77 million voted trump, 75 million Harris, and 101 million didn’t vote at all. How about blaming those people?
Yeah, I mean, I agree. I don’t think third-party voters made the difference. I don’t even think protest voters and protest nonvoters made the difference. I think the civic education of the US electorate is worse than previously thought, and it was previously thought to be pretty damn bad.
Or blaming the party and candidate? If someone didn’t win the majority of the blame lies with the person running.
This is an election. The people - the electorate - make the choice. If faced with the most incompetent democratic candidate imaginable, and a literal Nazi, the electorate - the voters - should still be held responsible if they chose the literal Nazi, or decided it wasn’t worth bothering with which one won. Or, conversely, if the democratic candidate is the best damn campaigner anyone has ever seen, but loses to the literal Nazi, that does not mean that the blame lies with the democratic candidate.
Elections are not a race between two aristocrats trying to prove they’re better than the other - or at least, they should not be. Elections are a decision about what direction the country should take going forward, and the campaigning of candidates only important insofar they emphasize one aspect or another. And the country decided that it liked, or didn’t care about, the fascist platform put forward by Trump.
That’s on us. That’s on the country. No matter what incompetence, vanity, or venality Harris or the Dems have shown, no matter what condemnation they rightly deserve, the final choice, the ultimate sin, is on the nation’s soul. We were given the choice between fascism and avoiding fascism, and we chose fascism.
Elections are a decision about what direction the country should take going forward
That is your personal belief, not an objective truth. There is no manual for voting. YOU view voting one way, and others are perfectly free to vote on whatever principles or with whatever method they choose.
When people call liberals arrogant, this is the type of thing they’re referring to. I’m sure you would call yourself open-minded, but you are completely incapable of seeing the world through another person’s eyes.
Not everyone votes like you. YOU see voting as a way of picking the ideal candidate for the next few years. YOU see voting as a kind of job interview. But your way is not the only way.
Others see voting as more of a performance review, a way of holding people accountable. They see judging past actions as more important than considering future actions. In many ways, this is a much better way of judging elected leaders. After all, politicians lie all the time. It’s often better to judge them by past actions than by whatever lies they happen to be telling today.
People saw that Biden enabled a genocide. That’s something he did. Full stop. There are tens of thousands of innocent dead civilians that he enabled. For millions of voters, holding Biden accountable for this was more important that what hypothetical future crimes Trump might commit.
You can disagree. And I don’t think you’re entirely wrong. You’re applying your cultural beliefs about voting perfectly fine. In fact, I did the same thing and voted for Kamala. But I have enough humility to not simply dismiss the reasons for those who didn’t. It’s simply a matter of how you interpret voting. And unless you want to fulfill every arrogant liberal stereotype, you should have enough humility to accept that your way is not the only way.
That is your personal belief, not an objective truth. There is no manual for voting. YOU view voting one way, and others are perfectly free to vote on whatever principles or with whatever method they choose.
Yeah, people are free to be fascists or believe that an aristocracy must rule over us peasants, that doesn’t mean they aren’t fucking wrong. Jesus H. Christ. This is “Genocide is okay if they really believe in it” level apologetics.
Upvoting before mods delete this for going against the thread zeitgeist
Personally I’m impressed with their sneaky support and unyielding praise of the genocide they administered directly.
To all third party protest voters: I hope you get a red hot wire coat hanger forced into your anus.
Just to be clear this is not a threat, I am unwilling to shove the hanger up your ass. I just want someone else to step up and handle it. (Kinda like your own unwillingness to think critically before a major election, ironic isn’t it?)
These statements aren’t contradictory
Why is this a controversial comment? They truly aren’t.
As I said in another thread elsewhere on the same subject:
The Protest Vote Paradox™
As we’ve all read time after time in the months leading up to the election, the Protest Vote™ simply states states that:
“We refuse to vote against a Tyrant-Felon in order to send a clear and concise message that we will not stand for [roll D20 for random popular single issue], and alongside our refusal to vote against the Tyrant-Felon, is a collective hope that the aforementioned clear and concise message- if ignored, is received under unmitigated duress!”
-Cut to Tyrant-Felon’s win, and the aftermath:
Whether observed or not, the behavior of the Protest Voter will attempt to achieve the following:
• Obnoxiously tell everyone: “We told you all what would happen!”
• Onnoxiously claim there is: “No way protest voting could cause trump to win.”As both of these options cannot simultaneously be true in the same reality without breaking important time-space things that we would probably prefer not be broken- we are left with only a few logical conclusions:
- Protest voters have no idea what they’re talking about.
- Protest voters don’t understand the concept of hypocrisy.
- Protest voters have somehow learned to defy reality and become exempt from the concept of paradoxes, thus creating an entirely new study of theoretical science, known as Bulletproof Symbiotic Hypocrisy Theory, or BLsHt.
Something, something, something Ted Talk.
As both of these options cannot simultaneously be true
They absolutely can. Protest voters not voting don’t encompass every democrat vote lost, there are simply many unconvinced people who became apathetic and didn’t vote despite having nothing to do with protest voters, with the latter being a minority. Stop your logical fallacies based on false premises.
So, you’re claiming that the protest both worked to help elect trump, and simultaneously didn’t work to help elect trump……
Gotcha.
I’m claiming that protest voting wasn’t a significant factor in trump being elected, unlike democrats running on having the, I quote, “most lethal army in the world” during an ongoing genocide, bringing the Cheney, and a myriad of other problems. The dems only have themselves to blame for being incapable of offering a better, more desirable option than Donald J fucking Trump
Sooooooo…. All the people saying “you should have listened to us!” and, “We told you this would happen!”
Liars?
Because a LOT of you seem to think that your little protest was a clear message sent and received.
All the people saying “you should have listened to us!” and, “We told you this would happen!”
Liars?
Not liars, just unaware that, outwards (i.e. internationally), there is no difference in policy between democrats and republicans. Now, what are you gonna do, bash to the left of you (the ones who actually organise to fight against fascism), or join us?
Okay, so-
It DID work and you all successfully got trump elected?
You’re kind of making my point for me here. Pick a lane and stick with it. Either your protest was effective and you take credit for where we are now, or it was a waste of time and effort.
The protest is effective not from the electoral standpoint because that was never the objective. The objective wasn’t to decide between lite fascism and open fascism, the goal was to hopefully push the dem administration further towards the left with the collective effort of dem voters. Too sad thay you’d rather suck Cheney than actually force dems to adopt a progressive platform. And by still sucking up to them you are actively saying that they can bring another ghoul next elections because you’ll vote blue no Mather who
- Protest voters fell for a propaganda campaign (maybe by the republicans, maybe by Russia or China trying to destabilise the USA).
all of the above, plus perhaps iran, dprk…
Occam’s razor that versus the campaign was SO POORLY RAN that it didn’t inspire people to vote against a literal dictator.
“Oh damn I lost the race I thought was easy again. Could I be a shit party with shit messaging and wet farts for fans? Nah its everyone else whos wrong”
We fucking told you so:
It is never about winning the election. Or voting in a third party.
What the radical left are doing is sitting out in protest of a broken system. Over here in the UK we had the lowest voter any living generation would have witnessed. The reason why is we are disenfranchised and won’t support the elites.
This is the kindling of a revolution.
Anyone who doesn’t understand this should school themselves on historic materialism. No amount of wining will change how large swafts of people react to their material condition.
What the radical left are doing is sitting out in protest of a broken system.
There has never, ever been anything approaching a protest that starts with the words “sitting out”.
That’s not revolution, that’s apathy and disinterest. That’s what the people in power want.
Don’t sit out. Stand up. Do something. Or don’t. But don’t lie to yourself and others and say that sitting out of the problem makes it any better.
This is a great point. I am a paying member of the SP. I attend major demos across the southwest. Currently building housing unions in my city.
Voting in neo-librisism I won’t do.
You’re not engaging with the challenge to your original statement.
You don’t protest by sitting out. So what are you doing?
I’m not speaking for the person you’re replying to, nor do I necessarily approve of the actions of what I’m about to share, but I certainly know someone who doesn’t vote but does go to rallies and very often writes/calls their representative and senators. (Though I do think they voted this election cycle for Harris, which was extremely rare for them.)
I’m not questioning the value of non-electoral political action. That is just as - if not more - important. Get involved. Use your voice. Donate. Rally. Please.
I am only challenging this naive idea that “not voting” = “protesting”. You cannot protest by staying home. You cannot protest by sitting out. Not voting isn’t action, it’s inaction and no revolution will ever, ever start with inaction.
Sitting out has definitely been a form of protest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_bus_boycott
Hell democracy is measured by political votes, a nation with low voter turn out are considered non democratic.
There has never, ever been anything approaching a protest that starts with the words “sitting out”.
The Montgomery bus boycott didn’t start with sitting out. It started with Rosa Parks sitting in.
Not to mention the easily understood fact that an economic boycott - one which causes direct material consequences - has absolutely no relation to some sort of “political boycott”, which causes zero consequences against anyone in power.
Hell democracy is measured by political votes, a nation with low voter turn out are considered non democratic.
Yes? Congratulations, you are therefore contributing to our continued democratic decline.
This same argument can be used with electoral protest. It would be disingenuous to say none voting in protest materialised from nothing.
Yes? Congratulations, you are therefore contributing to our continued democratic decline.
I don’t see your point. If people aren’t voting then that is a symptom and not a cause. I think also a nuanced lens helps with this. People not voting isn’t binary. some knowingly protest, some are seeing the slow encroachment of inequality and just couldn’t care less which leader will continue to fuck them over.
Not voting is absolutely both a symptom and a cause. How do you think we got here, if not by voting for the people who won the elections for the past century, and by not voting for the people who lost the elections?
This is not a good counterexample. A boycott has immediate financial consequences for the boycotted company/industry. No such pressure is generated by sitting out an election.
In fact, a central strategy of the right wing in the United States is to reduce overall voter turnout, which is achieved either by restricting access to voting or by discouraging voter participation. By sitting out the vote you did exactly what the right wing wanted you to do.
Voting in neo-librisism I won’t do.
Yeah, we get it, you won’t vote against fascism and genocide. You’re too pure for that.
Let the suffering of minorities sanctify your cause.
Scratch a liberal a fascist bleeds.
Scratch a liberal a fascist bleeds.
“Letting people be genocided is bad” is apparently a liberal take now, and liberalism is, of course, fascism.
How curious.
There has never, ever been anything approaching a protest that starts with the words “sitting out”.
In a sense you’re right, but it seems like a lot of people participating in this discussion may have a misunderstanding of the history of disagreements about electoralism on the revolutionary left.
Historically, some members of the left don’t want to waste time and resources participating in electoralism that could be spent doing other things that contribute to the revolution that will happen when the Bourgeois electoral system inevitably collapses.
Others want to participate to signal the point when that collapse has inevitably occurred because the corruption will have become blatantly obvious.
Personally, I don’t think just going in and voting counts as the kind of participation that theory is describing (that is, running in elections, participating in campaigns, etc.)
On the other hand, it has also become blatantly obvious to me, personally, at this point that on a national level my vote just doesn’t count. My vote is dictated by the capitalist class owned and controlled media telling everyone which states will vote which way. The puppet politicians aren’t vying for popular support, they’re vying for oligarch support and the media they control to sway that population. It’s voter manipulation on an unbelievable scale that sounds like a conspiracy theory, but I can’t ignore that it has become blatantly obvious to me that the system is rigged by the capitalist class, and participation in it (at higher levels) is pointless.
when the Bourgeois electoral system inevitably collapses.
What you guys don’t get is that when the electoral system eventually collapses it will be far too late, and any chance of your revolution ever happening will be long gone.
What do you think a revolution is if not a collapse of the previous system?
Edit: also, it has already collapsed. That should have been evident in the 2016 primaries.
Just so I understand, you’d rather wait around until the complete collapse of society rather than take five minutes to go vote, is that right? Because what, a democrat might accidently get elected and give you healthcare, but he might get some money from a corporation or something to do it so fuck that, right?
You understand that if things ever got bad enough for the system to collapse it would not be a communist paradise that arises from the ashes, right?
I seriously don’t understand you people. This is like chopping your whole hand off because your fingernails need trimming.Edit: also, it has already collapsed. That should have been evident in the 2016 primaries. You don’t actually own anything of value, like a house or a car, I take it.
Just so I understand, you’d rather wait around until the complete collapse of society rather than take five minutes to go vote, is that right?
Given this response, I’m guessing you read less than a paragraph in to my original response and decided you needed to wield your superior intellect and values and produce a “gotcha” response while not actually understanding what you were reading.
You don’t actually own anything of value, like a house or a car, I take it.
I own a relatively large house and multiple cars. I have a wife and a dog and a daughter and a granddaughter. I have lots of completely unnecessary consumer goods. Likely I’m more well off than you. Just because I can play and succeed in the capitalist game doesn’t mean I don’t recognize it for the oppressive system that it is and sympathize with the people that didn’t get as lucky as me.
You so badly want to pounce you have to build a straw man to dislike instead of trying to understand a perspective different from your own. You are a petty person.
Given this response, I’m guessing you read less than a paragraph in to my original response and decided you needed to wield your superior intellect and values and produce a “gotcha” response while not actually understanding what you were reading.
Couldn’t think of a witty comeback, huh?
I own a relatively large house and multiple cars. I have a wife and a dog and a daughter and a granddaughter.
You obviously don’t seem to care about the kind of country they grow up in, since you’re too lazy to do the absolute minimum required to prevent them from growing up in a fascist hellhole.
You so badly want to pounce you have to build a straw man to dislike instead of trying to understand a perspective different from your own. You are a petty person.
All I’m saying is that fascism is here, which side are you on? Because if you’re just going to sit this one out, then you’re on the side of the fascists.
By doing so they’re allowing fascists to take over. Isn’t it in your best interest, as a leftist, to prevent the fascist take over of your country?
And before you say “The country is already run by fascists,” over here our immigration dept. is now starting to detain Native Americans. The president is deporting school children. Even other American citizens who aren’t white are being detained. That simply was not happening under the previous president.Fascism is born from economic issues and tention usually created by rich people to move the blame. We have a labour party in place in the UK, Elon Musk has already involved himself in our politics. Reform uk is poling 25% and labour 26%. labour hasn’t even been in for half a year.
Fascism is battled in the streets and unions, historically this is what has happened.
Fascism can be seen as the endpoint of capitalism, when a system predicated on infinite growth hits the ceiling. While yes vote in your interest I wouldn’t depend on politicians to fix the systemic issue that is capitalism.
Edit for clarification: Reform UK are a nationalist party. Labour were a socialist party for workers, now they are liberals willing to sell whatever isn’t strapped down.
None of this changes the fact that by not voting against the fascists, you’re doing nothing to prevent them from taking control of the government.
I struggle to see a direction capitalism can go after topping out.
I struggle to see why it’s such a hard thing for people to do the absolute minimum required to prevent fascists from taking power. Why is it like pulling teeth to get leftists to be civically engaged?
It is never about winning the election. Or voting in a third party.
Thank you for admitting it. Many of us poors and minorities will die, but that is a sacrifice you are oh-so-nobly willing to make.
You are missing the point, voting in a party that has been moving slowly right isn’t a way to fix it.
You are missing the point, voting in a party that has been moving slowly right isn’t a way to fix it.
Most of us are well aware voting them in wasn’t going to fix the core problems of the United States.
However, most of us are also well aware that voting them out is making the core problems worse. One need only apply a blindfold and throw a dart at any of the executive decisions made over the last week to find incontrovertible evidence of that.
Accelerationism is nothing but supporting facism. There is no magical moment where fascists run a nation into the ground, the system collapses, and somehow you get to decide what happens after.
What comes after can be just as bad - if not worse - than what came before. And you will do nothing - less than nothing - to stop it by choosing not to vote.
I don’t believe in accelerationism either, the USSR went from shit to worse with no sign of changing. But I recognise that fascism is on the rise, and no amount of finger pointing will stop it. People need to radicalise and actually do something. Voting won’t fix the ruin that is the neo liberal project and the debt its forced us into.
Voting won’t fix the ruin that is the neo liberal project and the debt its forced us into.
Again, almost everyone knows that. For most “radicalized” people that are actually doing things, voting is openly acknowledged as a stalling tactic designed to give us more time to do what must be done for real change.
What exactly will not voting do? Who will face the consequences of not voting? Who will be helped? Who will be harmed? Do you honestly think the wealthy will be harmed by you not voting?
Not voting discredits the allusion of democracy. I’m all for voting within ones own interest. But I won’t treat someone with hostility for they’re choice.
I don’t believe I have treated you with hostility, but please forgive me if I have.
But I must ask - does “not voting” discredit the illusion of democracy? To who? How?
Do you think there is a meaningful number of people who currently believe the statement “American democracy is working” but would cease to believe that when faced with voter turnout statistics?
Oh, I’m missing the point, of course, sending the disadvantaged to their deaths by a reactionary fascist regime is a small detail when you have the Upcoming Revolution™.
I mean, it’s been Upcoming™ for decades now, but THIS time, with no organization, it’ll happen; definitely, you guys! THIS time the blood of minorities will sanctify your efforts!
The genocidaires will make every move of any revolutionary more difficult and more costly by their control over the levers of power. It would have cost you next to nothing to help avert a genocide. And allowing the genocide will gain the revolution nothing.
And yet, here it is, ushered in primarily by the apathy of the American electorate; an apathy embraced and celebrated by would-be revolutionaries.
And you don’t think this is already happening. Look at our prison systems, the wars we fund, the number of homeless people on our streets. Things are rotten to the core and good for you in your unbridled support of neo-librisism but I’m out, I will be active in meaningful political action at demos, door to door but I won’t be pointing fingers playing this sad blame game you guys enjoy so dearly. Keep towing the line and see where you end up.
And portraying this as me killing disadvantage people is so fucking rotten you should be ashamed. I know what its like to be homeless. How it feels for the education system to fail. The brutality of job security. The none existent programmes for mental health in the UK.
But again keep towing the line that allows this broken system to produce fascism.
And you don’t think this is already happening.
Ultra-privileged shite. Jesus fucking Christ. Sorry that the lives of minorities aren’t worth anything to you, I know posing online with your buddies is much more important.
Not a lot to work with Pug.
Yeah, if your response to looking at the Trump administration’s openly declared desires and, even now, a fucking WEEK into this hell, already-passed executive orders, is to declare “Well this was already happening”, there’s not much to fucking talk about. Some of us are going to have our already-hard lives get significantly worse, and quite possibly end.
Every fucking day is a struggle, and seeing people who proclaim themselves as allies of the disadvantaged help flush what little we have down the fucking shitter? And then say that it doesn’t matter?
There’s not a lot to be said except that it’s ultra-privileged shite.
News flash: you were going to be sacrificed by the corporations anyway. Voting blue or red legitimizes the system, so if anything, you’re the one elongating the struggle.
Voting blue or red legitimizes the system, so if anything, you’re the one elongating the struggle.
“Elongating the struggle”? What, do you want minorities to kill ourselves as fast as we can and get it over with, in the hopes that once we’re dead, that tragedy will Inspire The Masses to give you your deeply desired revolution?
If you spent half as much time working to end genocide as you do fully deep throating those committing genocide, we might not have a genocidal fascist government anymore.
An average persons, such as all of us here, only ability to do anything about it was back in November, but y’all wanted to “teach the DNC a lesson at the polls” at the absolute worst fucking time
No, we wanted to end the genocide. The Dems unilaterally decided that losing the election was less harmful than continuing to commit genocide and propose laws for domestic genocide (Harris’ border policy that Trump is now carrying out).
I’m sorry you like genocide, and it sucks you got what you wanted and are now upset about it. Either be helpful and admit you were wrong while working to eliminate both genocidal parties in the US, or be quiet and hope future history is interesting enough to forget people like you existed.
No, we wanted to end the genocide.
And how did that work out for y’all?
The exact same as if Harris won. Literally line for line. Our fight hasn’t changed. Your fight has, and it will fail if you people don’t give up wanting to commit genocide and overall being Nazis with liberal aesthetics.
Now you get genocide here and in Palestine. Congrats!
Everyone knows opening up a second front is ALWAYS a good idea LMAO
ROFL! You have no fight.
Please. Just stop. You’re hurting everyone.
You’re hurting everyone.
I’m fairly certain that’s exactly what these bLuEmAgA folks wanted
A fair portion appear to be adherents to accelerationism, the homeopathy of political philosophy, so, yes.
Since this account is getting banned since I dared to disagree with a .world mod with access to the admin bot, no, lib, you’re hurting everyone.
You people need to die for progress to happen.
Accelerationism is survivor fantasy. Who says you won’t be in the ditch too?
People can suffer oppression nearly infinitely (see: North Korea). What gives people the strength to rebel is being put in a position where victory seems possible. Accelerationism is even less than a survivor fantasy - it’s a delusion that feeds the powers that be. Entrenched powers are almost never overthrown by the people at their most oppressive, because systems are often at their most oppressive when they feel most powerful. Entrenched powers are almost always overthrown by the people when the system weakens and offers compromise, because that’s when people believe they can make demands of the bastards and best them if they refuse.
Add in that literally no historical evidence always to exist to suggest that accelerationism has ever had efficacy.
Its adherents are just doing their best to make other people suffer with a pie-in-the-sky hope that being class-traitors and offering up vulnerable groups as blood sacrifice will result, not just in a workers’ revolution but one that achieves their personal utopia, instead of getting coopted by theocracy or totalitarian dictatorships, as has frequently happened in history.
no, lib,
There it is, go back to your .ml tankie main account
Yep. It’s totally the fault of those willing to show solidarity. Willingness to work together with people they might disagree with for something positive who are the problem. Do you even read the insanity that you post?
You people need to die for progress to happen.
…
Full, mask off, core belief achievement on that one.
The Dems unilaterally decided that losing the election was less harmful than continuing to commit genocide
So it’s your opinion that the protest vote against Palestinian genocide did make the difference between victory and defeat for the Trump regime?
Yes, Dems choosing to be more right wing than the trump 2016 campaign did have an effect. It did cause them to lose core support from minority groups that realized they weren’t going to be supported anymore by the dem party.
Yes,
Then you admit you refused to show solidarity with LGBT folk in the US, because the candidate for protecting LGBT folk in the US showed insufficient solidarity with Palestinians?
I’m a trans person myself and voted for Harris. Do not use my people as a rhetorical cudgel against those that voted for accountability. We’ve seen after the election that Democrats have little spine is protecting trans rights. Democrats already voted to support the first anti-LGBT law in 30 years. There is anti-trans legislation in the works that will likely have substantial Democratic support behind it.
You only use minorities as a tool to wield. When those minority groups stand up and object to being thrown under the bus in the name of political expediency, you just hold up another minority group as another rhetorical shield.
Do not use my people as a rhetorical cudgel against those that voted for accountability.
I didn’t realize “accountability” was “putting a fascist in power to throw us disadvantaged groups in camps”. Rather seems like the opposite of accountability to me, but what do I know? I’m just one of those filthy mixed-race mentally ill useless eaters who’ll get thrown into the meat grinder. The REAL victims here are the people who sat on their asses while fascism came to America, and couldn’t be arsed enough to do so much as take one day out of their busy fucking lives and cast a vote for someone they didn’t like. Protecting minorities just wasn’t important enough. Feeling pure was more important.
…Jill stein did show support for Palestinians, what the fuck are you on about? So did de la Cruz. Hell even Dr West did.
Those were the only candidates showing support for trans people in the 2024 election, so no idea how you got confused.
Edit: ooh you’re one of the lgb not t guys, aren’t you?
And neither of those idiots have a track record of ever having done shit to support their loaded promises.
You’re just believing shit because it sounds good. They’re both untested, unproven blowhards that don’t have the political clout, or legal knowledge to back up a god damned thing they “promised.”
…Jill stein did show support for Palestinians, what the fuck are you on about? So did de la Cruz. Hell even Dr West did.
Okay? None of those candidates had any chance of defending LGBT folk in the US, and LGBT folk in the US overwhelmingly voted for Harris, above and beyond what support they gave the Dems in 2016 and 2020, because they saw the writing on the wall regarding Trump.
Edit: ooh you’re one of the lgb not t guys, aren’t you?
Get better material. Trans rights are human rights.
Jill Stein is loyal to Putin/Russia and the money she fundraises from her spoiler campaigns.
Where is she now?
The “protest vote” wasn’t very organized. There are many communities of Arab and Muslim people in the States that weren’t influenced by the small number of leftists advocating for votes against Harris. For many people, genocide is a deal breaker without outside influence of any sort.
Why are you able to excuse genocide overseas? Because at least it’s not genocide at home? Why are you allowing the party that supposes to represent your beliefs to enable any genocide?
For many people, genocide is a deal breaker without outside influence of any sort.
Oh cool, so they voted to prevent genocide in the US?
… no?
They didn’t?
I guess genocide wasn’t such a deal breaker.
Stop using the threat of future genocide to ignore current genocide
I never ignored the ongoing genocide in Palestine. But quite clearly, if one believes that “Genocide for Palestine and genocide for LGBT folk” is an acceptable alternative, genocide is not the ‘deal-breaker’.
Stop enabling genocide then.
What are you even talking about, I and MANY others were right, everyday since the 20th has been a gold star example on how Trump is SO much worse. The article yesterday was literally Trump calling for a “total ethnic cleansing”
Not to mention all the additional people NOW under threat like the LGBTQ+ community.
Harris would have at worst kept the status quo, Trump is turning the dial to 11 on everything from Gaza to a recession to racism and transphobia. Good job though on your protest vote 👍
That’s not worse. Genocide is genocide. Harris was already promising to roll back trans support and implement a worse version of Trump’s 2016 border policy. And you voted for that.
Our fight hasn’t changed. Yours has.
Hope you’re ready.
Why are you pushing misinformation?
Probably because accepting that one was wrong, taking responsibility, and trying to make amends to those that one harmed is really hard.
Let me fill you in on how things would have gone down had you and your fellow
Trump SupportersbluEmAGa mouth breathers just shut up and advocated for Harris.Trump would have lost, he would have been sentenced to jail, MAGA would have likely imploded in on itself and the Republicunts would have been too busy running around panicking to do much
Then we could have all focused on pressuring the DNC/Harris over the next 2 years about Gaza and then if necessary taught them that lesson at the polls at midterms
But no, now we’re going to be too occupied with the SHOCK part of Trump’s shock and awe plan to do much of anything for the Palestinians let alone ourselves.
GLADD seems to disagree with you on Harris’ trans support policy.
I’d suggest you read:
and
ThisYou are free to wrongly accuse democrats of having changed their fight, but at least they have one. Your fight doesn’t even exist as evident in your failed attempt to send a message with your little…. protest votes.
A party needs forward-looking and backward-looking voters in order to prosper. You can’t win elections without the forward-lookers. But without the backward-lookers holding people accountable, you end up electing candidates who won’t actually accomplish anything when they do manage to win.
The utilitarian folks arguing that “on the net, Harris would be better for reasons A, B, and C…” are forward-looking voters. Those staying home in protest of Palestine were backward-looking voters.
People simply have different cultures; liberals SHOULD realize and accept this. Not everyone thinks like you. Not everyone has the same voting culture you do. You are a forward-looking voter. But you shouldn’t chauvinistically shame those of a different culture. Your way is not the only way.
Bruh, I’m not gonna forgive folk who “okayed” me getting my ass killed in the next four years just because they have “a different culture” on voting.
This isn’t about “holding Dems accountable”, it’s about the literal fucking fascist proclaiming literal fucking fascist things running and the race being tight. This wasn’t 2012. This wasn’t 2008. Fuck, it wasn’t even 2000 or 2004. It wasn’t even fucking 2016, when people could plead ignorance as to Trump’s character, if they were not deeply politically involved.
If they said “Anti-fascism isn’t enough for me to throw my lot in to prevent fascism” in 2020 or 2024, they’re a fascist enabler. End of story.
Ironic to hear about “forward looking” from a protest voters who enabled a genocide to complete its work in the fastest possible way.
You should be ashamed of yourself, sadly you never learned about morality or responsibility 🤷
I am so tired of strategic voting
Just one more time bro! Just vote for the Dems one more time bro, and they’ll definitely stop being a lesser evil. I know they’ve never done anything to actually obstruct America’s slide to fascism, but just vote blue no matter who one more time bro I’m sure this is the time!
Unfortunately, that’s the only kind of voting there is, so long as there are factions and negotiations (ie always, realistically speaking).
People think of voting at the polls like an opinion poll, but it’s not, or shouldn’t be treated as such. We are the equivalent of electors in a college or legislators in a parliament. What we wield is not our opinion, it is our political power, what little sliver of it we have in the great mass of the electorate. If Senator John Q. RealtivelyLeft abstained on a bill for universal healthcare tomorrow because the wording displeased him, we wouldn’t say “Well, that’s just his opinion”, we’d lambast him for forsaking a chance to make this fucking country a little less miserable for his own petty partiality. Same with voting.
Look to your left and to your right. Your fellow voters are there, and it’s only by majority vote that anything gets passed.
Be strategic. And also, be loud and unafraid of your own position; it’s the only way the calculus on strategies changes.
Yes, and that is why you have to have a mechanism to trigger a national vote to cancel any new written law before it takes effect
It is called a referendum
As well as a way that anyone can issue a change of the constitution by triggering a so called initiative which than has to win vote to get through
And of course, make sure nothing disturbs separation of powers like a pardon law or president setting judges without a vote.
And vote for ranked voting when it comes up in local elections.
Or approval voting
First pass the post suuuuucks. Literally anything else is at least slightly better.
Well apart from outright vanguard single party rule or dictatorship. Absolutely.
Alaska actually had ranked choice this last election. No green candidate in a state they could have done the most good in though
aren’t you enjoying your pseudo-democracy?
Have a look at the swiss voting system 😇 hope you see the way for improvement 😁
But first kill this stupid pardon right of president making all courts a fucking joke and waste of money
and this is just week 1 of episode 2. it’s gonna get a lot worse and they won’t waste any time. they have to shovel all the shit they have planned before midterms while they still have congress.
if congress doesn’t flip and flip hard–like impeachment-ready and veto-proof hard, it’s ‘game over’. instead of a few decades to fix episode 1, it will take generations, if it is even possible to recover completely at all.
I would say, prepare yourself to free your country from Nazis…
It’s cute you think there will be a real midterm election
This comment section gave me acute radiation syndrome.
Yeah man
The best part ? They really think that, like 3 people on Lemmy swayed the election towards Trump lmao
Next thing they’ll say, Trump actually lost and Kamala is the actual president of the United States of America.
They will just keep on blaming the voters.
I’m sure it will work wonders
Then they will keep asking themselves why they lost the election LMAO 🤣
