While the “elves spend most of their long lives in leisure” explanation is kinda nice and Tolkien-esque, it doesn’t solve everything to do with their lifespan.
Imagine you have an event in your setting that took place 1500 years ago. That’s as far back in time as the fall of the Roman empire is from the modern day. In real life that’s a long enough time for multiple empires to rise and fall, for language to evolve to the point that speakers can no longer understand the previous tongue, and for people to change their religion and forget they were ever pagan to begin with.
Elves in DnD live 750 years. A 200 year old elf PC could reasonably say “wait what if my grandpa was there? DM do I remember my grandpa ever talking about this?”
This is a result of taking something that should be awe inspiring and making it mundane (letting people play as elves). And it’s not the only instance of that in DnD.
This comment really highlights the fact you haven’t read 2e and 3e source books. The shit your talking about is embedded in the lore and part of the restrictions 5e/Mystra imposes.
I’m not trying to be elitist but you are ignoring aspects of cosmology, religion, and mysticism that actually do matter in the worlds in question.
Even for Tolkien (a totally separate cosmology) you are being dismissive as you neglect the fact that elves are educated in the bardic magic system of middle earth.
You’re right that I’ve never read the 2e and 3e sourcebooks, just 5e and some OSR stuff, but nothing in between.
Most of my experience playing DnD comes from playing in homebrew settings. Maybe the real problem in that case comes from trying to use a roleplaying system that has a bunch of cosmology and mysticism baked into it in a setting that either lacks that or has metaphysics that actively clash with it.
But if so I think that’s probably a pretty common experience with how 5e is played.
“You go to ask your Grandpa about it. He tries to explain but is so fucking racist you can’t even tell if he’s still speaking common. In between gibberish that’s probably old-timey slurs, you pick out something like ‘follow the quest hook’ and ‘the dm already told you where to go’”
While it does mess with things when you’re trying to get that kind of feeling it does open up new opportunities. Such as in a setting I was making there was an empire that collapsed around 100 years ago. That’s long enough there aren’t really any humans or other normal life span races people around to remember what it was like outside of stories. But the elves and other long lived races do remember and that can create very different attitudes between people about how they think about the empire and if they miss it’s stability or are happy to be free of it on top of the differences that exist naturally between the different cultures.
I don’t think that necessarily takes away from the grandeur of something. If you want something truly ancient and out-of-touch, you can easily just set it 15,000 years ago instead of 1,500 and no player will bat an eye or even notice, and the elves’ lifespan gives an easy ‘this is why they remember and are still more knowledgeable with this ancient civilization than other races’.
It’s also not any less awe-inspiring to have people who lived in an important time period. We still have living veterans of WW2, and WW2 is no less important or intriguing (as evidenced by the number of historian hobbyists who love to talk about all the details of WW2).
If you want something truly ancient and out-of-touch, you can easily just set it 15,000 years ago instead of 1,500 and no player will bat an eye or even notice
I am currently doing world building for a ttrpg campaign, and I recently I did try to set an ancient empire 15,000 years in the past.
The basic idea was that empire A existed 15,000 years ago (them existing while the world was still covered in ice was important to the aesthetic), then they would be wiped out by empire B some time later, only for empire B to be destroyed by a great calamity. I wanted for there to be remnants of empire B still hanging around in the form of people who still worship a few of its god-kings and groups of people who still try to preserve it’s knowledge and maintain its infrastructure without fully understanding most of it.
The latter group was based partially on the Catholic Church preserving records after the fall of the Roman empire and partially on how the core of the Jewish religion was able to maintain a continuity of information and tradition over vast stretches of time even in the face of mass migration and social upheavals.
The problem was that I underestimated just what a vast gulf of time 15,000 years is. I had two problems. For one I was struggling to fill in all that time with events, and for two I realized that this knowledge preserving group would have had to existed for way longer than I was originally envisioning. Not only would they be older than the Jewish religion, they would be older than ancient Sumer. In fact you could take the entire history of the beginning of the Sumerian empire to the present day and fit it into that span of time twice over.
In the end I had to invent empire C, which refurbished some of empire B’s infrastructure before collapsing themselves, as the actual origin for the knowledge keepers. And even with that I still had to move the timeline up by thousands of years.
It’s also not any less awe-inspiring to have people who lived in an important time period. We still have living veterans of WW2, and WW2 is no less important or intriguing
The problem with that is that it would really change the dynamic of how non-elf civilizations would develop. Unless the elves are extremely insular, and even then. How do you have a plotline involving the player characters needing to delve into an ancient tomb in order to discover whether or not the current ruling family are the legitimate heirs of the kingdom when you can just ask an elf? How does the world get into that situation in the first place when you can just ask an elf?
I have two friends who take turns running DnD 5e campaigns in a shared setting who have made elves entirely extinct for that reason.
The problem was that I underestimated just what a vast gulf of time 15,000 years is. For one I was struggling to fill in all that time with events
Then don’t fill in all that time? You can leave periods open or unmentioned, you don’t need details everywhere.
for two I realized that this knowledge preserving group would have had to existed for way longer than I was originally envisioning
Depending on your depiction of Elves the effect is the same (provided the group is Elves) because they’re often predicted as just slower/more leisurely in their approach to life (although I’m not sure what you mean by the statement in the first place, because something being older than you intended doesn’t sound like an actual problem).
Not only would they be older than the Jewish religion, they would be older than ancient Sumer. In fact you could take the entire history of the beginning of the Sumerian empire to the present day and fit it into that span of time twice over.
You could, yes. Here’s the thing: history doesn’t have to happen. You are the worldbuilder, you can easily say there was a long period of nothing at times, or a period where record-keeping gets mixed-up/distorted/unreliable (but earlier periods still manage to maintain their connection more readily, this has happened several times in real life if you care a lot about realism).
In the end I had to invent empire C, which refurbished some of empire B’s infrastructure before collapsing themselves, as the actual origin for the knowledge keepers. And even with that I still had to move the timeline up by thousands of years.
That seems entirely like a ‘you’ decision. There’s nothing here that sounds like a problem long-lived species caused. You could’ve easily just said empire B lasted longer or managed to revitalize itself temporarily (as the Roman empire did and the Byzantine empire did many, many times) or any other number of solutions like a golden age, a period of upheaval and warfare with another empire that empire B ultimately wins, or you could just leave the entire extra period of time unmentioned/undetailed. None of this seems relevant to long-lived species though, since as a long-lived species you can just drag out their periods of history (a good ruler will be a good ruler for a lot more years and their nation is more resistant to change just because people with the ability to change (or not change) things stick around longer). That would even be very realistic for a long-lived species.
The problem with that is that it would really change the dynamic of how non-elf civilizations would develop. Unless the elves are extremely insular, and even then. How do you have a plotline involving the player characters needing to delve into an ancient tomb in order to discover whether or not the current ruling family are the legitimate heirs of the kingdom when you can just ask an elf? How does the world get into that situation in the first place when you can just ask an elf?
Do you trust any old man you meet on the street? If an old WW2 veteran suddenly starts yelling about how he met Hitler and totally knows the names of every member of his administration (thereby potentially allowing you to hunt down some war criminals), do you just believe him at his word? For one, senility can affect Elves just as easily as any other race, and the effect would possibly be way worse given they can be senile for much, much longer. For two, Elves don’t necessarily have a better memory than Humans. As time marches on, their memories can distort, be forgotten, and fade. For three, hostility and lies exist. Even if your kingdom is egalitarian and mixed races, individuals have their agendas. The word of a person is extremely tenuous, and you could easily have Elves saying opposite things. One Elf says the hero is the heir to the kingdom, but also this Elf happens to be a close family friend and has been for generations. Another Elf says the hero is not the heir, but also this Elf happens to be the godfather of the person who would be king otherwise. You can include any number of Elves and just split them into factions because popularity is fallacious and not real evidence.
And, as an alternative point to your earlier point, Elves being around and supportive would mean the empire lasts longer. The conditions for major upheaval like a succession crisis would be rarer specifically because an Elf could be around to make sure there’s no issues, thus solving your issue of needing an empire C… or on the other hand an Elf could make things a lot worse if they liked and people trusted them. Elves don’t have to be good-intentioned.
And a fourth point, Elves may not care/notice at all. If the Elves are insular and live in the woods they’re extremely unlikely to bother remembering the Human king, after all he only lives like a scant 100 years at most so why even know his name? Barely an associate. Even if there’s good relations, Elves could easily see Humans as ‘all the same’ i.e. it doesn’t matter who’s in charge and they’ll just support the least-likely to cause problems (even if that happens to be the wrong heir or someone who would be bad for the humans).
I could probably think of a lot of other ways to solve these issues, but point is when worldbuilding you can solve a lot of problems with a lot of different solutions. Yes, you can just get rid of long-lived species if you like. You can also modify the world to match the fact near-immortals exist and I don’t think it’s that hard. It’s your decision, ultimately, but there’s a lot of ways to solve it.
Now I have the idea of a level 7 elf wizard but he’s also like level 20 fighter and he just wanted to re-spec
An elven midlife crisis.
1/10th life Crisis
Sorta turns the AD&D mechanic on its head. And it makes more sense than the way it was done in AD&D - I like it!
Context: in AD&D, humans could “dual class,” which is similar to what you described - effectively retiring in one class and beginning to advance in another - and non-humans could “multi-class,” where they gained experience in two or more classes at the same time, leveling more slowly but getting the benefits of both classes.
Further context, assuming the ruleset governing the OG Baldurs Gate games was true to the tabletop (I know they sort of kludged AD&D and aspects of 3e together). As the above said, a dual classed human “retires” their original class, and then begins to advance in their new class, essentially starting over from level 1, with only the hit dice and HP of their original class rolled over (you cannot access any of the class abilities you learned while advancing your original class). However, once your new class level is superior to your original class level, you can now access both skill sets.
It’s a very strange system, and I am curious what the fluff reasons surrounding it are, if anyone has any insight into that edition.
I remember it being especially bizarre because it basically means going through a large portion of the game with a more or less useless character soaking up xp, after which you either have a slightly less useless underlevelled character or one that’s brokenly OP depending on how you planned out the combo. And if you dual class too late you just never get to that point and it’s all drawback no benefit.
It would be funny if, after a certain point in their life, elves learning one thing made them forget another thing.
It’s like Pokemon. You only get four skill slots.
I think I might be that kind of elf.
Just remember most normal people live their entire lives and never progress to level 1, any player character is an exception beyond normal humans, It’s like looking at a teenager and belittling them for not being a god yet.
I played in a commoner campaign (4hp 10 in all stats) about 10 years ago. The ‘boss’ at the end was a group of four goblins and a goblin boss. Only two of our group of 8 players survived.
It made me look at lvl 1 in a whole different light.
That sounds like a really interesting setup. Did you each get a profession/craft to base a few skills around?
The premise was that our characters were hired hands for a semi-commercial farm a little ways outside Yartar. Everyone had proficiency in athletics, animal handling, clubs, and spears(pitchforks).
okay I need more info, what were the sessions like? were you just RPing working on a farm in medieval times with DnD as a framework for that?
It was a one shot that took place over two sessions and four in game days. The first was mostly what you described, but that night a goblin band that had split from a Horde on it’s way to attack Yartar raided the farm. The next couple of days were our group of survivors trying to reach Yartar for safety with as many supplies as we could while dodging other goblin bands and staving off exhaustion. The boss fight I described earlier was a scout group that we had to defeat in order to reach one of the city gates and get inside the walls.
This is one of the few campaigns I’ve ever been in where animal handling really mattered since we had an ox that was carrying a lot of supplies we would need to survive the siege if we made it to the city.
That’s because you only see the levels of classes that are interesting to play. Most regular people are going to specialize in something that keeps them alive and has more use the general public. Did you want to play a level 7 Dentist or a level 5 Pizza Chef? And feats like Least Painful Tooth Extraction for the Dentist or Perfect Toppings Distribution for the Pizza Chef?
How many hit die do those classes get?
Can a level 7 Chef take a meat 1d6 cleaver to the face? They should have at least 7HP even with bad rolls and no Con.
DnD (Faerun) elves spend the first 100 years or so dreaming of/remembering their previous lives and the time their soul spent in Arvandor. It’s called the Reverie, and is one part religious experience, one part intense training/schooling, and one part idyllic childhood. Interrupting it is kinda a cultural no-no and something that most elves would be uninterested in doing.
Does that really take 100 years?
Feels like humans could do that in 10.
Humans form individual memories at 2-3 years. Elves don’t start forming memories of their current lives until 30+ and this is considered a tragic event in elvish culture as it generally marks a close on remembering Arvandor. The about 100 year mark is termed the closing of the veil as the lose the ability to remember their former lives.
You term it as a goal post, but they view it as a cutoff. It’s more the spigot has run dry than they want to venture.
Hey if medieval humands have to put our offspring to work in the mines, army, and fields by age 10, those lazy-ass elves can abuse and exploit their kids too.
And they do that for while gaining 0 XP?
In my head canon the people are sometimes just rusty and forgetful, because even if someone lives 100 year, that doesn’t mean that they will remember everything or get better at stuff. That is why I think immortal beings that live aeons, can still be surprised or tricked. Being old doesn’t necessarily mean that people are wiser.
Sometimes people just need the right motivation to improve themselves.
Yeah apparently elves have some perfect memory bullshit trait and only need 4 hours of sleep.
“Look, I took a gap decade or two, okay?”
Elves are probably like that ghoul, Calamity, from New Vegas. Every decade or so, she just picks a new name and job or she gets bored.
What’s an appropriately Elvish way to say “Now listen here, you little shit.”?
You wouldn’t understand, spoon ear.
“I’m sure you’re too immature to appreciate this, but…”
Embrace the wisdom of the immortal’s experience, you little shit.
Be sure to throw “spoon-eared fuck” in there too.
Cast thine undivided attention upon me, whelp.
I read the comment talking about New Vegas and then I misread this one as “Elvis” and for a few seconds it made sense to me.
Some mods let you play aa a ghoul, making you just as functionally immortal as an elf, if slightly less pretty.
So yeah, making fun of immortals for only being lvl 7 works in the Fallout universe too 😁
I spent thirteen years growing bonsai, fifteen pining over Loravindrel. That brought me into my eight year long emo-goth period which produced poetry I’ve since fed to the flames. For sixteen seasons after that I meditaed under a plum tree and swept the eight hundred and seventy two dozen and five stars. Six years I practiced the letter œ to master the uhm. Fifty seven years I spent in the arms of Madeleine and our oldest grandchild is about your age. And the last three seasons I’ve been chasing the south-western gale that robbed her from me decades too early.
Dude, what’s even your job? How did you make a living for 106 years just sitting around?
The value markets of men is a circular process of overproduction and scarcity. The bare-essential trinkets of yesteryear can often be exchanged for today’s luxuries.
Mom and dad have 900 years of savings in the college fund.
Maybe he’s a trust fund elf from some royal lineage?
To those whose lives flicker like a candle in the wind elves are royal and in their societies live free of want.
My 300 year old gnome wizard has made it to level 20 six times now, mastering each of the schools of magic before returning to Candlekeep to study the next (and lose all his levels through decades of inactivity)
He’s on divination now, and assuming he doesn’t die during this campaign, he’ll finally master necromancy within the next century
“Yeah, I had to spend 50 doing your mom. And 50 before that for her mom, and her mom…”
This can go very dark, very quick.
“Nah roundears I wrapped it up”
Human discovers how to start a
bartavern fight in one easy stepEh, most levelling systems are totally unrealistic and it’s best not to think about them too much. If I had to explain them, I would say that at the start of the campaign, the PCs were blessed by the gods with tremendous innate talent. It doesn’t matter if one PC had a hundred more years of experience than another because until the campaign started, none of the PCs were talented enough to be extraordinarily good at anything.
But it’s so much funnier to picture elves as spending 40 years in diapers.
This is why I love the elves in Eberron so much. They have a strong culture of ancestor worship, and practice the only “positive” form of necromancy. Positive in the sense that it does not rely on magic from the world or others, only yourself and the object of worship. By doing so, they maintain a court of their deceased who continue to govern and advise the nation.
Sure, you can learn how to fight well with a sword in a few years, but it takes a dozen or more to learn how to fight exactly like the long-dead patriarch of your family line.
After spending decades learning how to be like one of their ancestors, they often go out into the world to walk the same paths.Yeah this is a primary reason I hate elves being so much longer lived than humans
Why do you hate them because of that? I love them for that.
Because it makes a complete mockery of history, because it means they’re clearly completely incapable of learning anything in a reasonable timeframe (what were you doing for the last two hundred years? picking your toes???), because it means they cannot possible think like the humans playing them as they work on a totally different timescale, because elf culture would have to either be completely alien or stuck in the bronze age, and finally because it just rubs me the wrong way!
@ReCursing @MonkderVierte I figure that they forget things along the way (I’ve forgotten most of what I learned in college 30 years ago), aren’t in such a hurry, or mentally stick to “back in my day…” Also, if they only became an adventurer recently, they might get a History buff, but if they just recently started studying their class skills…
That works for why they’re still a low level adventurer but none of the other problems i mentioned
Elves just get really into coffee for a couple centuries. Their covid bread-making phase lasts until at least 2400.
I feel like elves would get into tea, dwarves would get into coffee
I was going to say no, dwarves drink beer, but then I realized that elves would absolutely be Insufferable IPA Guy.
