The child can still consider taking the one-way exit as soon as it is able to make such considerations and thereby gets a choice.
You could ask in a similar manner:
Wouldn’t it be immoral to disallow this decision making process by leaving the child no choice by not having it?
Asking for consent of an unborn is paradoxial and inherently impossible. It’s almost like asking a plant whether it consents into being planted and eaten afterwards. It has no agency. Is it immoral though to plant it and eat it anyway?
Having a child is similar. Get it, let it grow and develop its agency. Then it can decide for itself.
So the answer boils down to kill yourself when you turn 18 bud? That seems like incredibly callous and unnecessary pain for all involved.
Consent 101: If you’re unsure about whether or not someone would consent, the answer is no. And since we can’t ask the unborn, people who don’t want kids assume the answer is no.
That seems like incredibly callous and unnecessary pain for all involved.
Which is - at least to some extent - a culturally formed perception. We know cultures where suicide was not frowned upon nor was seen as an inherently bad thing. For example:
Harakiri / Seppuku: ritual suicide commited by Samurais (and later officers during WWII) (lazily taken from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku ) as a way to restore or uphold their or their families’ honour.
Ättestupa, sites with cliff-like rock formations in Sweden where old people threw themselves off in order to not burden their community. (There are quite a number of examples regarding such kinds of senicides in different cultures. Currently this is also a topic regarding assisted suicide for (old) people who are severly ill with no realistic hopes of improvement.)
This proves that it can be possible to embrace such decisions of mature adolescents, be it for life or against it.
Consent 101: If you’re unsure about whether or not someone would consent, the answer is no. And since we can’t ask the unborn, people who don’t want kids assume the answer is no.
We can turn this easily around: If you’re unsure whether someone would consent to not being born, the answer is no and therefore they should be born.
But more importantly, to ask that question at all is already built on a erroneous premise, in my opinion: The unborn child has no sufficient agency to form an opinion about this question. It is therefore pointless to ask it. The ability to make such decisions comes with time and maturity of the child. Until this level is reached, you could also deny plants and even stones their existence because you are not able to ask them whether they want to exist at all. They have about the same level of agency as an unborn child.
Yeah I just don’t think having a kid under the premise “well you can kill yourself later” is a really great argument. And they’re not really letting us kill ourselves humanely anyway - Medical Assistance in Dying laws are still incredibly restrictive and they actively prosecute people who sell alternatives.
Just because I find joy in life I can’t force that on other people. We all have different perspectives.
I look at it like joy is not guaranteed. The only thing that is guaranteed through life is suffering and death.
I don’t need to have kids for survival and we have too many people already. Why guarantee suffering in another person.
If you’re unsure wether someone would consent to not having sex, the answer is no. Therefore… If someone is unconscious it’s okay, or even morally necessary, to have sex with them in order to not deprive them of a decision they don’t have the agency to make themselves?
Death is far scarier than having never been born. I went through sooooo much torment thinking about death and if I should make today the day. I have PTSD from years of that. This is not a fair exit.
I understand that. It’s a very scary feeling for most. (btw: If you really feel like this damaged you, I hope you’ve considered therapy.)
However, if someone decides they don’t want to be alive (and we can ensure that this decision is made of “sound mind” (whatever that might look like)) I can imagine that they might get used to the idea of death and ending it.
I mean… with all the negativity in this thread, every single person here is consenting to be alive every single day. While there are a number who choose an early exit, the vast vast statistical majority overwhelmingly consent to live another day every day. With such stats I feel like it’s fine to assume the default status is consent in this context.
Plus, speaking of morals, we’re just dumb little apes. You give us too much credit if you think we can fight the greatest biological urge of all life over something we’ve completely invented in our minds : morals, and the morals of the unborn is like double hypothetical.
Death is scary, not wanting to die is not the same as wanting to live. I would’ve rather not been born during about 1/3 of my life, it’s only now that I’m finding any substantial (though inconsistent) enjoyment from life.
"by waking up today, you consent to continue existing, and acknowledge the suffering it brings. Do you wish to continue?”
[yes] [yes]
no the fuck I do not. If I had a magicall button that would let me stop existing without the risk of damaging my neck and spending the rest of my life incapacitated but alive, and it didn’t cause trauma to the people around me, I would have pressed it fucking years ago.
vast statistical majority overwhelmingly consent to live
Ignore or assume we fix socioeconomics, environment, etc.;
Is having a child moral given the child cannot consent to being born?
(Not offering any opinion or trying to lead towards any answer)
I would say it isn’t
The child can still consider taking the one-way exit as soon as it is able to make such considerations and thereby gets a choice.
You could ask in a similar manner:
Wouldn’t it be immoral to disallow this decision making process by leaving the child no choice by not having it?
Asking for consent of an unborn is paradoxial and inherently impossible. It’s almost like asking a plant whether it consents into being planted and eaten afterwards. It has no agency. Is it immoral though to plant it and eat it anyway?
Having a child is similar. Get it, let it grow and develop its agency. Then it can decide for itself.
So the answer boils down to kill yourself when you turn 18 bud? That seems like incredibly callous and unnecessary pain for all involved.
Consent 101: If you’re unsure about whether or not someone would consent, the answer is no. And since we can’t ask the unborn, people who don’t want kids assume the answer is no.
Which is - at least to some extent - a culturally formed perception. We know cultures where suicide was not frowned upon nor was seen as an inherently bad thing. For example:
This proves that it can be possible to embrace such decisions of mature adolescents, be it for life or against it.
We can turn this easily around: If you’re unsure whether someone would consent to not being born, the answer is no and therefore they should be born.
But more importantly, to ask that question at all is already built on a erroneous premise, in my opinion: The unborn child has no sufficient agency to form an opinion about this question. It is therefore pointless to ask it. The ability to make such decisions comes with time and maturity of the child. Until this level is reached, you could also deny plants and even stones their existence because you are not able to ask them whether they want to exist at all. They have about the same level of agency as an unborn child.
Yeah I just don’t think having a kid under the premise “well you can kill yourself later” is a really great argument. And they’re not really letting us kill ourselves humanely anyway - Medical Assistance in Dying laws are still incredibly restrictive and they actively prosecute people who sell alternatives.
Just because I find joy in life I can’t force that on other people. We all have different perspectives.
I look at it like joy is not guaranteed. The only thing that is guaranteed through life is suffering and death.
I don’t need to have kids for survival and we have too many people already. Why guarantee suffering in another person.
If you’re unsure wether someone would consent to not having sex, the answer is no. Therefore… If someone is unconscious it’s okay, or even morally necessary, to have sex with them in order to not deprive them of a decision they don’t have the agency to make themselves?
And that’s why you should never pull an unconscious person out of a fire. QED.
Death is far scarier than having never been born. I went through sooooo much torment thinking about death and if I should make today the day. I have PTSD from years of that. This is not a fair exit.
I understand that. It’s a very scary feeling for most. (btw: If you really feel like this damaged you, I hope you’ve considered therapy.)
However, if someone decides they don’t want to be alive (and we can ensure that this decision is made of “sound mind” (whatever that might look like)) I can imagine that they might get used to the idea of death and ending it.
I mean… with all the negativity in this thread, every single person here is consenting to be alive every single day. While there are a number who choose an early exit, the vast vast statistical majority overwhelmingly consent to live another day every day. With such stats I feel like it’s fine to assume the default status is consent in this context.
Plus, speaking of morals, we’re just dumb little apes. You give us too much credit if you think we can fight the greatest biological urge of all life over something we’ve completely invented in our minds : morals, and the morals of the unborn is like double hypothetical.
Death is scary, not wanting to die is not the same as wanting to live. I would’ve rather not been born during about 1/3 of my life, it’s only now that I’m finding any substantial (though inconsistent) enjoyment from life.
"by waking up today, you consent to continue existing, and acknowledge the suffering it brings. Do you wish to continue?”
[yes] [yes]
no the fuck I do not. If I had a magicall button that would let me stop existing without the risk of damaging my neck and spending the rest of my life incapacitated but alive, and it didn’t cause trauma to the people around me, I would have pressed it fucking years ago.
what disgusting mental acrobatics