Because they really just don’t want to pay taxes, which are needed to fund universal healthcare.
Also most people who say they’re libertarian have no clue what the word means, and are morons.
They don’t want to pay taxes because they don’t like how government uses taxes and don’t trust the government to do a good job. Plus, it’s an additional layer of bureaucracy at the top which costs more money and is less efficient.
No, that’s saying too much. They don’t want to pay. Full stop. That’s it.
If you think private healthcare is more efficient than single payer healthcare when EVERY PIECE OF DATA WE HAVE says the opposite then I think that says more about you than it does about the government.
That graph is relating cost of healthcare to quality. Not necessarily comparing cost of countries with universal healthcare to America. Additonally, most of the healthcare spending in America is already by the government and look how that’s going. America is also significantly larger than any of those countries listed. Overseeing healthcare for a country so large requires way more overhead.
Every graph of healthcare costs vs privatisation with the US in it is necessarily a comparison between private and public healthcare systems since most countries have single payer as most of their healthcare.
The US government healthcare programs are by far the most cost effective offering in the US but it’s hampered by regulations such as not having the ability to negotiate prices (until the recent tiny concession on a handful of drugs that has paid off in spades).
Finally, other large countries including India and China may have lower life expectancy, but they’re close and rising rapidly compared the stagnant US trends. Of course the bang for the buck they get is at least 5x what the US gets with its ridiculous system
I’m not a Libertarian, but I sympathize with some of their economic viewpoints – significantly more so than tends to be welcome here. Unlike some of you, I don’t speak to the motives and attitudes of all libertarians, only my own. I’m not a Republican. I don’t smoke pot. I did vote for Jo Jorgensen in 2020. I do give a flying fuck about liberty. I don’t confirm or deny being a myopic cunt.
Oddly enough, I do support some form of public healthcare. I’m well aware that most libertarians don’t. A hundred years ago, maybe even 50 years ago, I wouldn’t have either. The problem is that medical science has advanced to where a free market insurance model doesn’t work as well as it used to. Health insurance used to be a luxury when lung cancer would kill a rich man almost as quickly as it killed a poor man. That’s no longer the case, and the costs have accelerated to where the treatment can bankrupt an uninsured middle class man.
The real sinker however is pre-existing conditions. You can’t insure a house that’s already on fire, and we don’t ask homeowners policies to do so. Waiting periods for costly conditions sometimes almost work, except for patients born a pre-existing medical condition. If the insurer had the choice, they’d just refuse to write the policy, even if treatment is cost-effective from a public policy standpoint.
So I support free market solutions where they exist. Health insurance may be one of the few situations where it doesn’t.
I always assumed it was impossible for a free market to exist in healthcare. One important tenant of a free market is being able to freely enter and exit the market at will. Exiting the healthcare market is impossible. You can’t reasonably choose to leave the market when life is forcing you to engage in it, or choosing to leave the market would lead to death. It’s the equivalent of having a gun put to your head.
Exactly. To me all the basics of life, the bottom tiers of Maslow’s pyramid can’t be privatised. Healthcare, utilities, education, infrastructure, social safety nets, you need those things as a PREREQUISITE to participation in the market. The market can’t provide its own prerequisites. If you don’t provide these things you simply cannot have a competitive free market in the first place.
Disclaimer, I am not a libertarian by a long shot.
But - there is a difference between freedom to and freedom from. I think in general libertarians believe in freedom to, not freedom from. So you are free to yell, but not free from noise. You are free to walk in traffic, not free from being run over.
It almost makes sense, I don’t think people should be free from seeing things that offend them, right? Or free from consequences. So no, they don’t think freedom from sickness is a right.
You’re right especially in that it almost makes sense - the only people I’ve seen who are more allergic to nuance than libertarians are Trumpists
Libertarians are Republicans that smoke weed. They are identical at their core.
I disagree. Libertarians are more evil and stupider than Republicans.
Republicans are pretty awful all round, yes. But have you tried selfishness-extreme, our new flavor? Now with less self-awareness!
I imagine it’s a “negative liberty vs positive liberty” conundrum.
American libertarianism seems to consistently skew towards negative liberty, which is complete autonomy to anything but without any power or resources. I believe this predilection came from Ayn Rand and Reaganism, and that It now manifests mostly as anarchocapitalist sentiments.
I’m a bigger fan of positive liberty - possessing the resources and power to do what you desire within a constrained system.
Unfortunately we live in a society which provides neither. The amazing results of constant compromise.
I really like your answer but to me this is what motivated me towards libertarianism. We have been voting between two parties that both are authoritarian in different ways and the result stinks. Let’s try the other half of the compass for a change. If government sucks then don’t vote for more government to fix the corrupt system. Vote to limit government and give power back to the people.
The problem is defining what acceptable positive rights involves. There are people who think that having to “work to survive” is somehow a major human rights abuse. I don’t think that anyone should be entitled to not have to work unless they are severely disabled and can’t work. At the same time, expecting people to work multiple jobs is corporate oppression.
Libertarians are people who imagine living in their idea of personal, fictional, utopia. Their utopia is one where they pay for only what they want, nobody else gets any of their money, corporations will do no harm, and somehow, magically, they have all the conveniences of modern life.
They just completely ignore that their miserly financial outlook undoes centuries of understanding that an educated society reduces poverty, crime, and unrest, hence the need for public education. Corporations still cause environmental ruin and poison the land, sea, and air…as if giving them minimal or free rein would improve that. Usually their solution to anyone intruding on their ideal world is to shoot them, no need to pay for cops.
In other words, they’re all about their Liberty to do what ever they want. Their version of liberty for you is “You’re free to sink, swim, or die on your own.” They just assume they’ll always be fine or have enough money to do whatever they need. No need to chip in for anyone els’s health care if a) they can’t pay for their own or b) they have their money to pay for theirs, and you’re not getting any of it.
Libertarians are the right wing version of 20 year old socialists who want free stuff and have no understand of what really drives and motivates people.
I tend to lean left but I’m incredibly disappointed with the state of the political landscape.
Libertarians are, typically, just republicans who dont want the label or baggage, at least from every single one I’ve ever seen or interacted with.
You will know the answer if you look more specific at what exactly different people understand as “liberty”
Because someone needs to be enslaved to provide universial health care. If even one person wants to opt out, no matter how wrong their reason you if you allow don’t allow it they are enslaved. (note that there have been many different systems of slavery, but even the best still remones choice from someone). as such I prefer other options if they exist.
There are other options and so I oppose universial health care. Do not confuse that with approving of the system we have.
Because someone needs to be enslaved to provide universial health care. If even one person wants to opt out, no matter how wrong their reason you if you allow don’t allow it they are enslaved.
Congratulations, you just said the dumbest thing I’ve read on the Internet in a very long time. That’s impressive!
I pay for the military, for roads, for schools, for police, for fire departments…and I can’t opt out of any of that. So am I already a slave? If so, then I might as well get some healthcare out of the deal.
If I’m not already a slave then universal healthcare isn’t making me a slave either. No one would be forcing you to use your healthcare either.
You are a slave and should opt out of those things.
Your proble is you know what is and cannot imangine what could be.
I am libertarian-ish, but generally don’t like all the loud libertarian nuts (I register Dem and vote Dem because the things I care about aren’t represented anywhere on the ballot anymore).
For me, it comes to a very simple economics truism: Governments are pretty damn inefficient and tend to waste a lot of money because of the process and bureaucracy. Markets on the other hand, tend to be really efficient at allocating capital when left alone. The times a government should step in is when the market has created a form of externality that breaks things. The old economics example is the people downstream from a chemical plant are paying the price for the plant’s pollution.
From a libertarian lens:
- The government should negotiate SPH b.c. it’s obvious that markets failed and we’d all be better off (spend less money) if everyone had healthcare.
- The government should stay out of people’s bedrooms and love lives, it has no business there.
- The government should use UBI and then eliminate every other deduction, and tax break, and subsidy (Social Sec, . The office running UBI could be one guy sending checks out once a month (exaggerated obvi)
Unfortunately the things I’d like to see from a libertarian don’t actually show up.
Liberty
Universal Healthcare @ gun point.
Can’t have both.
When you combine “Libertarian” with the greed that is typical in the ultra wealthy, their core value typically only includes liberty for themselves and no empathy for others. You can use any party label you want but without empathy, members of every party are nothing more than selfish pieces of shit. Just to be clear, I am not a “they’re all the same” idiot, as Republicans clearly think empathy is a four letter word. But there are sociopaths without empathy everywhere in society, especially in the US.
As far as universal healthcare is concerned, we can’t even agree as a society to provide clean water to our population by removing leaded pipes. Why would we expect something as reasonable as universal healthcare?
When you combine “Libertarian” with the greed that is typical in the ultra wealthy, their core value typically only includes liberty for themselves and no empathy for others.
I would argue that, at that point, they are no longer libertarian. To uphold liberty, as described in libertarianism, is to uphold it universally.
Oh I agree. Even F Hayek in “Road to Surfdom” said that government needs to regulate certain industries (he used the example of pollution and environment ironically). Even the founding father of libertarianism knew that the “free market” is incapable of regulating some things.
Tldr non partisan answer: Libertarian philosophy favors negative rights over positive rights.
Negative rights oblige others to not impede (like not censoring free speech).
Positive rights oblige others to provide something (like healthcare).
Imo, it would be better worded as follows:
- Negative liberty: freedom from something.
- Positive liberty: freedom to do something.
That’s probably the more popular way, but I think it’s easier to misinterpret. For example the freedom of speech, one could think of it as the freedom to speak instead of the freedom from undue censorship. But that right is usually considered a negative one.
For example the freedom of speech, one could think of it as the freedom to speak instead of the freedom from undue censorship.
As I currently understand it, freedom of speech is regarded as a negative liberty because it is purely focused on freedom from the government imposing restrictions on what you can and can’t say. It’s not, however, the government giving you the freedom to say whatever you want, whenever you want, under any circumstance — e.g. people are free to trespass you from their establishment if they don’t like what you are saying.
I agree that it’s a negative liberty. It’s just the from/to language can be misconstrued IMO, the not impede/oblige others framing is more clear without additional information. It’s, again IMO, targeting the core of the differential. Asking of others for inaction vs asking for action.
IIUC, I just think that the intent/mentality is somewhat altered in what you described in this comment. For example, you said “Positive rights oblige others to provide something (like healthcare).” — positive liberty isn’t necessarily about forcing people, in an authoritative manner, to do things for, or to, another person. It’s essentially taking the position that people should have the freedom to experience life on a level playing field, if you will — it is interested in lowering the amount of barriers preventing people from doing what they want. I don’t think your wording is necessarily incorrect, I’m just not convinced that the connotation is the same.
I think this cleared up our disconnect. I chose oblige to indicate that they require others to do something for them to occur. Most often paying taxes, to pay the provider of a service. This typically isn’t a ‘at gunpoint’ interaction. But negative rights will never require another to do something for it to be practiced.
I agree with your highlighting of the philosophy behind them. I was more concerned about a short rememberable way to differentiate the two.
So I chose oblige vs force to make sure it had the connotation of a civil concession.
Because (so-called) “libertarians” aren’t.
The term “libertarian” has been hijacked in the anglophone-world (starting in the US, of course) to essentially just mean “fundamentalist capitalist” - they are right-wingers who have been immunized from reality and mindlessly support only “liberty” as it applies to private corporations and their interests. Therefore, it shouldn’t surprise anyone that you can find these (so-called) “libertarians” anywhere you find neo-nazis and the KKK.
In the non-anglophone world, the term libertarian still holds it’s original meaning - a socialist… or, more specifically, an anarchist.
The best description for the modern “libertarian” I’ve heard is that they’re just conservatives who smoke weed
The best description for the modern “libertarian” I’ve heard is that they’re just
conservativesfascists who smoke weedNow I agree.
I don’t think they’re fascist, just selfish in most cases. They take the “me” in “Don’t tread on me” too literally, and only care about their own rights and their own needs, fuck everyone else’s.
Their Venn diagram of “Things the government should provide/allow people to do” and “Things I personally need/want to do” is just a circle, and they won’t lift a finger to try to shape the government to work well for anyone else.
One of the vilest messiahs of US “libertarianism,” Murray Rothbard, associated with Holocaust deniers and argued for the pig to be allowed to torture suspects (not people convicted of anything - suspects).
If your roots are fascist, you are fascist. US “libertarianism” is about as fascist as Heinrich Himmler.
FWIW,
Rothbard was one of the foremost proponents of the pseudo-psychology known as praxeology. Rothbard viewed property rights as paramount to freedom and so went even beyond von Mises, who was a minarchist, in advocating anarcho-capitalism. He was also known as a big critic of fractional reserve banking and the Federal Reserve. Because of his philosophy, he held many views that would be seen as progressive as well as ones that were misguided. For example, he voiced support for the civil rights movement,[note 1] but also defended the practice of child labor, “racialist science,”[2] and that “cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment.”[3] Also, despite his initial vocal support for revolutionary black power politics, he later worked with Lew Rockwell, founder and then president of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, to run a campaign strategy to exploit racism in order to build a libertarian/paleoconservative coalition (dubbed Paleolibertarianism),[4] and praised the notorious work by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray, The Bell Curve.[5] He was known as the first anarcho-capitalist.
Benito later followed his mother into school-teaching and became politically active as a democratic socialist. He was a very prominent member of the Italian Socialist Party in the years prior to World War I.[18] He edited several socialist papers and also wrote a satirical novel, The Cardinal’s Mistress, which was poorly written and mostly served as a vehicle for numerous anti-clerical rants.[19][20]
Soooo… US “libertarianism” is about as fascist as Heinrich Himmler.
Apparently Rothbard wasn’t as bad as Himmler, but he was bad enough.
You no more have to be a disciple of Rothbard, Rand, or Hoppe to be a libertarian, anymore than you have to be a tankie to be leftist, however tankies might say otherwise.
Probably 99% of self described libertarians don’t know anything about that, or actual libertarian rhetoric in general, they just want to smoke weed and not pay taxes for stuff that doesn’t personally benefit them and they think that’s what libertarianism is
“Libertarian” became popular in the US when it started being incorporated into various science fiction novels. Probably the most famous is “The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.” I love the book as science fiction, but the society the author creates depends on so many caveats that even the author has the old style ‘free’ system fall apart as soon as an actual government [as opposed to prison regulations] is formed.
“Libertarian” became popular in the US when it started being incorporated into various science fiction novels.
They got their que from right-wing economic grifters like Rothbard and Hayek - people whose beliefs wouldn’t be out of place in Nazi Germany. That’s why olden days US sci-fi writing was a festering hole of fascism - nothing else could have produced people like Heinlein.
I got mine from the Libertarian party, a few decades ago.
They didn’t seem too fascistic back then.
Of course they didn’t, eh? Of course.
They didn’t wear brown, black, or blue uniforms.
They wore no uniforms.
One seemed to like Dead Kennedy’s and Black Flag.
They didn’t wear brown, black, or blue uniforms.
Most fascists don’t.
One seemed to like Dead Kennedy’s and Black Flag.
And up until very recently a whole bunch of them thought Rage Against The Machine was theirs, too.
They seem most powerful in uniform—I guess that’s what helps ties those little sticks together into their mighty hammer, FWIW.
I don’t like Rage Against the Machine.
Part of it is musical, I suppose.
Part of it is they support tankies and a group that massacred indigenous peasants in Peru.
Heinlein was a huge friend to Philip K. Dick, and any number of Jewish science fiction writers. He was one of the first writers to have an African woman as a hero, one of the first to have a transman character. Stop using the word ‘fascist’ for anyone on the Right. It dilutes the term.
and any number of Jewish science fiction writers.
And?
He was one of the first writers to have an African woman
And?
one of the first to have a transman character.
Again… and?
Stop using the word ‘fascist’ for anyone on the Right. It dilutes the term.
All right-wingers walk the same path. If you write fascist drivel, you are a fascist. Heinlein was a fascist. Stop making excuses for him.
How many socialistic writers wrote sci-fi that included Africans and the TG?
Was it back when Stalin outlawed homosexuality and allying with Hitler?
Plenty.
Could you name me one?
And then you wonder why the Left loses pretty much every election.
What left, liberal?
Exactly my point.
Call me when you actually win an election.
It does seem to now mean “people that don’t want to pay their taxes”.
It means “I am afraid of gay people but like smoking weed.”
I can’t think of anything more spoilt and privileged than taxes being the only thing you have to whine about.
Why the hell do you think that libertarians don’t believe in universal healthcare?
On a political spectrum, the term libertarian should relate to anti-authoritarian. So, I can see how the case can be made against socialized healthcare for them. It’s not really about true freedom or liberty. And in the US anyway, it’s largely just facade co-opted by the
fascist[authoritarian and wealthy] right wing, ironically.The word “Libertarian” in US has less relation to the dictionary definition than “Republican” and “Democrat”. These are names of parties over here, even if they have a namesake of governmental mechanisms.
Examples:
Ron Johnson said in a single breath that he was a libertarian and opposed the legalization of marijuana.
Find the average “libertarian” policy position on border policies.
US politics is unfortunately entrenched in tribalism rather than searching for the right tool to match a job or solve a problem and maximize outcomes, the libertarians over here are no exception.
