"If you don’t vote for genocide, your actually voting for trump 🤓 "
I’m still voting 3rd party and the blue state I live in will still give genocide Joe my vote so don’t worry OP. We’ll continue to provide weapons to the country that just has whistle blowers leak evidence on concentration camps. Good to know that concentration camps aren’t a deal breaker for you. 😮💨
Good to know that MORE concentration camps isn’t a deal-breaker for you to have the smug satisfaction of voting third-party. Who the fuck cares about the support Trump has already promised genocidaires in Israel and the genocide he’s promising here in the US? You have to FEEL good about yourself!
I hope we’re not in line together at the camps.
Again my state will go blue regardless of who I vote for. I’m gonna vote for someone who is anti-concentration camp, unlike you. I get the electoral college is a little hard for you to understand but again please calm down.
Palestinians are the ones being put in concentration camps not your privileged ass or mine.
Oh hey look it’s a real “it can never happen here” out in the wild!
Yeah. Never is a very long time and we’re on the fast track to fascism.
It can totally happen here in fact it is. I was just arguing with a bunch of genocide supports from here this morning actually.
I hate Trump. Trump is a fascist. I just don’t pretend like Biden and the Dems aren’t either. Scratch a liberal fascist bleeds
Palestinians are the ones being put in concentration camps
And you’re voting for increased support to Israel. Know what that does?
not your privileged ass or mine.
Speak for your fucking self. Or have you not been paying attention to the current state of the Republican Party?
Yeah, the Republicans are even worse than the dems I know. Just because I’m not afraid to admit that the Dems are backing genocide and it’s not going to work out well for them in the election doesn’t mean I support the Republicans.
Fuck, do I have to explain to you how the trolley problem works? Is that how basic we’re gonna have to get here?
The only thing forcing us to pick a lesser of two evils is the idea that it’s the only option we have. Until we get past that, we’re going to be locked in this cycle of picking really bad fascist or fascist who only support genocide over seas.
The eagerness you have to keep people in this trap and shame them for trying to do anything else is part of the problem. Until You and everyone else grows up and moves on from that (which is really unlikely) we will be stuck In this cycle.
That’s all there is to it.
The only thing forcing us to pick a lesser of two evils is the idea that it’s the only option we have.
It’s the only option we have because the last time we had a good option, in 2020, not enough fucking people turned out to get the better option on the ballot. That’s democracy, unfortunately. Maybe next time I’ll be able to count the number of primary voters in my precinct on my hands and toes instead of just my hands.
The eagerness you have to keep people in this trap and shame them for trying to do anything else is part of the problem. Until You and everyone else grows up and moves on from that (which is really unlikely) we will be stuck In this cycle.
Oh, don’t worry. If Trump wins, you won’t have to fret about being ‘stuck in this cycle’ anymore.
“We should end genocide somewhat”
Literally the Biden position. Which is a mild milquetoast lukewarm moderate take on an issue that should be far more serious.
But I guess Trump’s “We should intensify and start new genocides” is more appealing.
Literally the Biden position. Which is a mild milquetoast lukewarm moderate take on an issue that should be far more serious.
The extent to which he’s done this (not much) he’s been dragged there by protests and complaints from voters. Literally what the people you’re criticising are doing.
But I guess Trump’s “We should intensify and start new genocides” is more appealing.
You could not be more like the meme if you tried. Only an idiot would vote Trump because of this. Most people are just pissed off at Biden for what you describe as his mild, milquetoast moderate take on the issue. It’s almost like you agree but you still shame people with “Trump would be worse” as if 95% of us complaining don’t already know that.
I expect better from Biden. That’s it. If we can’t criticise him for this dogshit policy then when can we?
I expect better from Biden. That’s it. If we can’t criticise him for this dogshit policy then when can we?
There’s a vast fucking difference between criticizing him for his Israel policy and peddling “both sides” and “I’ll never vote for Joe!” shite, or throwing a fit over being told that sitting by and letting Trump win is literally just voting for more genocide, regardless of whether you pissed away your vote in Green or Republican red.
Yes, and pretending that those people you describe represent a majority or even a substantial proportion of the people criticizing him is disingenuous and frankly insulting. Criticism is just that, criticism. And it is deserved.
On here? It’s definitely a substantial minority. I’m not out on the streets bitching about Biden being attacked from the left - I’m on the Fediverse bitching about it.
And we’re only complaining on the Fediverse too. About something pretty fair to complain about.
I think the amount here that say “they’re both the same” or will actually vote Trump is very small.
Not voting I can understand a lot more but obviously not a good decision pragmatically
Lmao I’m glad I’m not alone in getting it stranger. Thanks 😊
A chunk of this is probably propaganda
I’m the person in another country worried about how even the meager progress towards tackling climate change will be enthusiastically and vigorously reversed out of spite thoroughly double fucking the rest of us for good.
The lion’s share of progress isn’t happening in the West. It’s reforms happening in East Asia and new cleaner development happening in Latin America and Africa.
Western states are hobbled by legacy infrastructure they refuse to replace. What progress they have made has been driven by cheap imports. And they’re going to halt those imports to protect legacy industry
Can western states start stealing eastern IP and marketing it now?
If the tables have turned, it makes sense if genocide Joe is genociding those Palestinians, China finished with their uighur ‘issue’ and the poor destitute west only knows how to copy moves from the ‘big glorious leaders’ in the east 🤡
Are we selling weapons for China to genocide Uighurs with?
Can western states start stealing eastern IP and marketing it now?
You think we haven’t been, already?
it makes sense if genocide Joe is genociding those Palestinians, China finished with their uighur ‘issue’
What is the Rafa of Xinjiang?
Beijing sends in construction workers and factory managers and Mandarin teachers, and westerners call it genocide. Tell Aviv sends bombers to demolish hospitals and snipers to double tap relief workers, and we send cops to cave your face in when you object.
Go back and review the Hong Kong riots. Compare them to Columbia and UCLA.
If Tianamen happened in DC today, the news media would call the guy in front of the tank a Russian antisemite and the tank commander a pussy for failing to flatten him.
Beijing sends in construction workers and factory managers and Mandarin teachers, and westerners call it genocide.
What a tasty boot!
calling out literal genocide denial
The Americans invaded Afghanistan and kicked off a flood of refugees over the Chinese border. We dropped thousand pound bombs to flatten whole villages when we suspected a member of the Taliban was in residence. And we conducted this butchery for decades, killing 12-year-old boys while labeling them “Fighting Age Males”. Turning school children into prostitutes to satisfy the baser instincts of our occupying military and allied warlords. Crushing a son’s testicles to extort confessions from his father.
And we never thought to call it genocide.
When Beijing invests billions in the industrialization of its most rural provinces? That’s where we draw the line.
Who is licking boot again?
When Beijing invests billions in the industrialization of its most rural provinces? That’s where we draw the line.
lmao
Who is licking boot again?
You, as you keep demonstrating.
I’m voting for the lesser of the two evils, which is Blue, in yet another fucked up election. Read your damn history, the US politicians, Blue and Red, always give Israel a blank check for weapons to continue the family blood feud over lots of dried up rocks. Do your civil duty and vote.
If everyone who says that gets more active at the local level, we have four years to make the choices different next time around.
People generally don’t like actually participating in democracy. And fuck, who can blame them? The essential feature of changing policy in a democratic polity is the hard, arduous, thankless fucking task of fighting an apathetic or actively hostile majority. You don’t get to be a hero. You don’t get recognition. You may not even see any change at all from your own, personal efforts, sometimes not even locally. Success is measured on the scale of decades. It’s fucking miserable. There’s no sudden wave of support to ride to victory, there’s no cheering crowds showing your opposition how utterly defeated and isolated they are, like you once were; there’s no moment of vindication. It’s nothing but struggle, toil, and tedium.
Yet, that is how societies change.
The essential feature of changing policy in a democratic polity is the hard, arduous, thankless fucking task of fighting an apathetic or actively hostile majority.
The TikTok ban flew through. The '08 bank bailouts passed practically overnight. War bills for rammed through in a matter of months. Weapons deals are routine and tax cuts happen under every presidency.
The corrupt legislation doesn’t need to walk this arduous road. And corporate lobbyists regularly tout their jetset cocaine and hooker lifestyle.
This is the real face of American democracy. Not an army of petitioners fighting bad weather and apathetic crowds to scrap out civil rights from a clumsy bureaucracy. It’s dudes in $10k suits wooing senators in wine caves and beach resorts. And those same senators denouncing their constituents as greedy, lazy, ignorant slobs when a protest over the latest turd of a legislative package comes through.
Sorry that the miserable task of democracy doesn’t appeal to you. Maybe you can find somewhere where you can just parrot the Party Line and be happy with the Great Leader? I hear the PRC is nice.
Imagine being this angry at a country with cutting edge mass transit, modern health care, and a retirement age of 54
Keeping licking those boots, I’m sure your social credit score will serve you well in the future. Cretins like you adore fascism, after all.
imagine simping for a state currently involved in a genocide, putting hundreds of thousands of Muslims in concentration camps and executing them at will. And imagining that you’re better than the Israeli simps?
If you think that’s bad, wait until you hear about Native American reservations and the origins thereof.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States
My guy, you can’t walk through a college campus in the US without getting gang tackled by police.
Success is measured on the scale of decades. It’s fucking miserable. There’s no sudden wave of support to ride to victory, there’s no cheering crowds showing your opposition how utterly defeated and isolated they are, like you once were; there’s no moment of vindication. It’s nothing but struggle, toil, and tedium.
Yet, that is how societies change.
Interesting.
Is this how the United States was created?
I thought that the Fourth of July was celebrating some other type of event
The American Revolution was the result of some 40 years of agitating and politiking to change popular opinion, and ended with a ramshackle government where everyone hated one another and was entirely dysfunctional for half a decade, at which point a series of compromises no one was happy with and the only unambiguously popular figure in the nation came together to make the US Constitution, which everyone at the time hated. At which point we struggled for the next 20 years with lingering monarchist and loyalist sentiment, and then for the next 50 with anti-democratic and secessionist sentiment.
The change from a British colony to an independent country was (largely) not guns and fireworks. It was comprised of convincing people on the ground to take a different view than the one they grew up with; a slow, miserable, thankless process. And the part of it that was guns and fireworks was not nearly so glorious and momentous, nor spontaneous, as it is often pretended.
I did not suggest that there is anything glorious about violent revolution wherein untold numbers of human beings are murdered.
However, barring that violent revolution, the most powerful and wealthy country in the history of the world would not currently exist.
My point is that it is inaccurate to act like the slow progress of incrementalist democratic reforms is the only way for societal conditions to progress. If anything, those sorts of nonrevolutionary improvements, such as with Mandela in SA, are historical aberrations rather than norms.
The current global superpowers of the United States, China, and Russia were all formed by violent revolution. Secondary powers, such as Australia, Canada, Israel, etc, were formed through violent settler colonialism. And yet, despite this lack of democratic negotiation and mediation, these are the states that largely control the world.
Peaceful adherence to norms and consensus may have arguably established the Nordic model of social democracy and high living standards. However, in terms of global power politics, it seems to leave something to be desired. Violence has consistently led to a change in conditions, and oftentimes, an improvement in those conditions. If we disagree with that then we disagree with the essence of the United States itself - in which case, voting for neoliberal moderation with the Democrats seems to be missing the point entirely
If anything, those sorts of nonrevolutionary improvements, such as with Mandela in SA, are historical aberrations rather than norms.
Under that same logic, democratic governments are historical aberrations rather than norms. So why are you trying to apply a concept of how history ‘normally’ is to historical aberrations?
The current global superpowers of the United States, China, and Russia were all formed by violent revolution.
Formed by violent revolution against non-democratic polities.
Peaceful adherence to norms and consensus may have arguably established the Nordic model of social democracy and high living standards. However, in terms of global power politics, it seems to leave something to be desired.
Or maybe all the Nordic countries combined have less than a third of the population of the UK alone and didn’t even develop into democratic polities until the 20th century?
Nah, it’s gotta be because they didn’t found their prosperity on violence, not that stupid ‘material conditions’ stuff.
Violence has consistently led to a change in conditions, and oftentimes, an improvement in those conditions. If we disagree with that then we disagree with the essence of the United States itself - in which case, voting for neoliberal moderation with the Democrats seems to be missing the point entirely
“The US was founded on violence because of the lack of democracy, therefore, voting in a democratic system instead of using violence is missing the essence of America.”
Do you even listen to yourself
The US has a representative democracy. We elect people by voting so that those people can represent our beliefs in the action of government without us being there to make sure our voice is heard and considered.
While I agree that everyone should be more involved in civics, especially at a local level, it’s not really efficient for a society to implement a vanilla democracy. There are lots of other jobs like generating food/removing waste, generating energy/removing pollution, constructing/maintaining housing, transporting people including democratic representatives to and fro based on their obligations and desires, entertaining people so they can offset the pain in their lives and continue on with the struggle that is life, defend citizens from others or ourselves, etc.
Having a group of people act out government on our behalf is a good thing because we can specialize in other things to allow them to do so.
This all being said, there has been a disconnect with our representatives and with reality in general, so there is a giant need to reconnect with civic life in the US at all ages and at all levels for that matter.
Yeah, but that requires doing more than just doom posting, and we can’t have that now can we? /s
So many of the things people bitch about could be lessened (not necessarily resolved, but ffs, perfect is the enemy of good) by getting involved locally and trying to make things better for themselves and their neighbors. Fuck, even working on 3rd party support locally while stemming the bleeding nationally until there’s real ground level support would be better, but I guess we gotta tilt at windmills nationally and ignore the local level to get shut done…
I hate the fucking puritanical autocorrect. You’re a computer! Your people didn’t travel on the mayflower! You can say shit!
always give Israel a blank check for weapons
This is not necessarily true right now. Biden has put conditions on arms use, he has been slow walking arms shipments and now has placed a pause on them, however Israel needs to be supported to avoid major wars breaking out in the Mideast. Unfortunately Biden cannot control Netanyahu any more than he can control the orange mobster - both are dangerously deranged.
however Israel needs to be supported to avoid major wars breaking out in the Mideast.
I don’t think this is true, except insofar as “Waving a stick at Iran every now and again” is concerned. And honestly, we do that bare minimum of discouraging aggression for a lot of countries, not all of whom we would consider allies or countries we support.
I think @rayyy is right, unfortunately. If the West severs ties with Israel overnight (and suddenly stopping arms shipments would essentially be the same thing as severing ties), it’ll just create a power vacuum where Russia or China will cosy up to Israel instead. Israel has a lot of influence in the region - partially because it’s been propped up by US support, of course - and other countries would absolutely try to prop up Israel and capitalise on their influence in the US’ place if they had the opportunity. Which would perhaps slow down the genocide for a little while, but it would inevitably pick back up, but this time without the US/West having any influence at all.
Not to mention the fact that the US losing its influence over Israel would almost certainly destabilise the region. Iran would be emboldened, as you alluded to. Hamas would be emboldened, and while I take the side of the Palestinian people in this whole ordeal, I don’t think Hamas being emboldened would be a good idea - it would likely lead to further conflict and even worse suffering for the Palestinian people. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey would all likely try to expand their influences, too.
Biden is trying to slowly reel Israel in while still maintaining US influence there. Partially because the US just wants to keep its power, of course, but also because it’s perhaps the best way to have some control over the genocide and over the region rather than just being an observer. I don’t like all the blood on our collective hands but I think that, at this point, the genocide would continue without us.
I absolutely think the fact that Israel has been put in the position it’s in represents decades of shortsightedness and foreign policy failure, though. Israel should never have been in the position to do this.
I don’t think this is true, except insofar as “Waving a stick at Iran every now and again” is concerned.
You’re almost in danger of deviating from neoliberal orthodoxy here.
It’s almost like I’m not a neoliberal.
If you say so.
Biden’s approval so low that libs are desperately looking for someone to blame 6 months ahead of time
If leftists are so important to the coalition then maybe Biden should have been trying harder to earn their vote
Elections in the US are won by single-digit percentage points.
If leftists are 2% of the coalition, and anti-leftists are 20% of the coalition, do you think it’s reasonable for the leftists to demand total capitulation to them in exchange for their vote? Do you think that a total capitulation to the leftists, in this case, would result in the coalition then having a net… gain in votes?
Sorry that you’re so uncomfortable with the way democracy works.
Lol I’d settle even for passive toleration, I don’t need ‘total capitulation’
Not getting shot at and tazed would be a good start
Okay, I’ll tell Biden to put away his taser and stop saying that the Palestinian protesters don’t have a point and should be brutally attacked by local police.
Maybe try telling him criticism of Isreal isn’t antisemitic, he seems a little confused about it
Sure thing, let me dial his cellphone and have a chat. /s
Yeah, I remember when he said “Those Palestinian protesters don’t have any valid concerns, they’re just a bunch of antisemites.”
"I condemn the antisemitic protests,” is literally a direct quote lmao.
Ah, I knew that lazy soundbite would come up. You get that from a script, or are you just good at parroting?
“Mr. President, what’s your message to the protesters? Do you condemn the antisemitic protests on college campuses?” reporters asked the president after his speech Monday afternoon.
“I condemn the antisemitic protests,” Biden replied to the reporters. “That’s why I set up a program to deal with that.”
“I also condemn those who don’t understand what’s going on with the Palestinians.”
He’s literally said everything you’re sarcastically implying he hasn’t said
“There’s the right to protest, but not the right to cause chaos,” Biden said shortly before leaving the White House for a trip to North Carolina. “People have the right to get an education, the right to get a degree, the right to walk across campus safely without fear of being attacked.”
Holy shit literal fascism Biden please put the tazer away
He is spreading lies that the protests are dangerous. He is saying they are chaotic when they clearly are not. This is fascism, the fact you can’t see that is alarming. You’re so, so, deeply brainwashed.
Cishet white man me livin my life after trump gets elected
Well, at least I don’t need to worry about neither of those. There is nobody worse than Putin.
If you think that the alt right is rising in other countries due to trump, that what the rest of us call American Exceptionalism
We’ve been at this since before your country existed you daft cunts smh
My biggest concern right now is the Presidential Immunity ruling that the SC won’t announce until they know who will be getting it.
That’s bullshit. Biden must win so they can shoot the idea down. If Trump wins, they WILL crown him dictator, and Democracy is lost.
You have no choice but to vote for the genocide enabler. It is the only way to save “democracy.” The type of democracy where you have to support the abhorrent to keep out the truly monstrous and if you say you won’t, a bunch of self important liberals will pretend it’s all your fault and not the parade of geriatric ghouls the party has been nominating
” The type of democracy where you have to support the abhorrent to keep out the truly monstrous and if you say you won’t, a bunch of self important liberals will pretend it’s all your fault and not the parade of geriatric ghouls the party has been nominating
Yes, isn’t it terrible when democracy doesn’t agree with you? The only TRULY democratic society is one where those pesky proles listen to those who know what’s good for them, right?
Lol what?
The only TRULY democratic society is one where those pesky proles listen to those who know what’s good for them, right?
Isn’t this literally the message of the meme?
Isn’t this literally the message of the meme?
No, and I don’t really know how you could come to that conclusion, since the meme doesn’t say anything about whether any given act or ideal is ‘true democracy’.
“If leftists don’t vote for Biden they are stupid”
5 minutes later…
“Wow why do you think I’m telling the proles how to vote?”
“If leftists don’t vote for Biden they are stupid”
Yeah, if you allow fascism in order to stop a non-fascist government, you’re a fascist enabler.
“Wow why do you think I’m telling the proles how to vote?”
I didn’t realize pointing out consequences of losing a democratic election, and advocating voting for a candidate in that democratic election order to avoid those consequences, was anti-democratic. Thank you for teaching me this, O Great Leftist.
Those pesky proles should just listen to you, since you know what’s good for them
As a citizen, it’s my duty to speak out against what I feel are bad choices for the polity. I didn’t realize advocacy of voting for (or against) a specific candidate or issue through speech was so anti-democratic. I’m learning a lot from you today.
Democracy doesn’t work particularly well when the voters are uneducated or otherwise missinformed. That when the country starts doing things that are against its and its own citizens interest. Corruption, legal or otherwise, also contribute to making it disfunctional.
Democracy doesn’t work particularly well when the voters are uneducated or otherwise missinformed
This argument is the justification for the Electoral College.
Really? I thought it was justification to reform and improve education.
Democracy doesn’t work particularly well when the voters are uneducated or otherwise missinformed.
So we’re just coming out against democracy now when the proles aren’t on our side, are we? Great. Glad to see this brave new form of leftism.
It’s terrible when democracy doesn’t agree with damn near anybody
Yes, only a paltry plurality. If only there were a way that the option that even less people agree with could win.
Bibi wants Biden to lose so he can show the world what actual genocide looks like.
Yet, people are always saying we only have 2 choices and don’t talking about “waisting my vote”. If enough people voted 3rd party, it would no longer be a “3rd party”.
To be honest, I already wasn’t voting for Biden because of his record of mass incarceration, support for the Iraq War, and ghoulish complicity in every major problem the country is facing today. The fact that he’s fully and unwaveringly supporting Israel’s genocide is entirely on brand and just makes the decision even easier than before. Four years ago, those concerns were the ones liberals were saying you had to hold your nose and look past, now they’re not even on the radar anymore and it’s moved on to significantly worse things. It’s a perfect example of how the democrats move discourse to the right.
The US political system is truly vile in how it effectively brainwashes people into supporting genocide. Even in this thread you can see people defending Israel and saying it’s “necessary” for the US to support them, not even sticking to their lesser evilist line but just openly saying it’s a good thing for Biden to support them. Once people choose a camp they just end up knee-jerk defending their decision and adopting positions of their candidate to simplify their cognitive dissonance. In some ways, it’s worse than a straight up autocracy because of how it manipulates people while still not allowing people any meaningful voice.
Of course the lapdogs of the empire are more than happy to not only adjust their own beliefs into whatever the elites want, but to then browbeat anyone trying to stand against it. Because to them, the positions of our rulers are completely immutable while the moral convictions of voters are up for debate.
What liberals like OP will never understand is that no matter how real the threat of violence towards me is, it will never be enough to convince me to endorse genocide. At least I can go to my grave with a clean conscience, and that’s not worth much but it’s worth a hell of a lot more than anything Biden would do for me.
What liberals like OP will never understand is that no matter how real the threat of violence towards me is, it will never be enough to convince me to endorse genocide. At least I can go to my grave with a clean conscience, and that’s not worth much but it’s worth a hell of a lot more than anything Biden would do for me.
Cool, you can go to the grave knowing you’ve assisted in the murder as many people as possible. Good job!
Why does the blame for the results of a democratic farce that allows authoritarianism to rise falls on those not participating in said farce? If anything, is those participating in it, advocating for it and validating it that should be blamed when the system they enabled inevitably puts in power an authoritarian idiot like trump. (not my way of thinking, but if we are gonna point fingers…)
Who would you blame if Biden wins the popular vote and your “very democratic” electoral college gives the win to trump? Like it happened to Clinton.
If not doing anything for someone counts as assistance, then rest assured that Biden will have my assistance.
Standing by and doing nothing when you could do something is assisting the end result. So if Trump wins, you can pop some champagne and celebrate how many additional Palestinians you’ve helped murder so you could indulge in a masturbatory excuse for civic participation.
Sorry, I’m having trouble understanding you with that boot so far down your throat.
I think what you just said is something along the lines of, our ruler, who is actively arming and supporting a genocide that he has the power to stop, is completely blameless, while I, having no power and doing nothing with it, am somehow responsible for the genocide. That the gist of it?
I think what you just said is something along the lines of, our ruler, who is actively arming and supporting a genocide that he has the power to stop, is completely blameless, while I, having no power and doing nothing with it, am somehow responsible for the genocide. That the gist of it?
lmao
No, but maybe if you take a remedial English class, you can come back in a few years and actually parse what was said.
So then you agree that the fault lies with Biden and not me, cool cool.
Oh no, there’s fault with Biden, but you’ll have blood aplenty on your hands if Trump wins.
What a great democracy we have! You can only vote for Biden!
“I can’t believe that most people don’t want my first OR second choice, even as a compromise position! This isn’t REAL democracy!”
Because to them, the positions of our rulers are completely immutable while the moral convictions of voters are up for debate.
Yeah… Pretty much this, only worse.
