One point I haven’t seen mentioned, is the severity of punishment. Why did this person feel it was better to fight to the death rather than let the police take them? Could it because of draconian prison policies where they would go back to jail for years and years and years possibly forever?
If every interaction of the police is potentially completely life-changing, it makes people act very desperate
And maybe if the courts were worth half a shit, I would just stand up for myself the proper way, but not after being jailed for 10 months having my court date indefinitely moved up until I was too broken to not take the plea deal.
This. A lot of people don’t get that “hard on crime” is some authoritarian bullshit that creates crime as a self-fullfilling prophecy.
Shit, you’re gonna put me to jail for 8 months, ruin my life completely, and then send me to prison, where I’ll have whatever psyche broken down into a million pieces as I work in what can only be described as the western goulags?
Yeah, who knew recidivism would be super high when you have a prison industrial complex that only exists to grind down the poor and lock up undesirable subcultures with little to no effort put into reforming the prisoners or returning them to society in any fashion that allows them to reintegrate? And that doesn’t even begin to touch on the reactions of society at large to former inmates trying to to get themselves back on their feet, and how they’re shit out of so many opportunities that would help them become functional members of society.
Having seen this multiple times with family members, I can confirm through anecdotal experience that reintegration isn’t something that comes without massive struggles, and fails more often than not.
No don’t you see, working manual labor inside an active wildfire for $0.13 an hour so you can buy a $5 Top Ramen to avoid eating the chlorinated sewer runoff they call food (see the infamous prison loaf) is totally different from gulags.
p.s. don’t bother applying for the same job you did for free in prison once you’re out, having a record disqualifies you! Good luck paying rent!
Whenever anyone tries to tell me that we should expand execution as a way to determine crime I point at England’s Bloody Code where they hanged people for pretty damn near everything and it just made crime skyrocket.
Turns out, when the state treats their citizens as violent dangerous animals that need to be controlled, that tends to be what they create.
As an example consider unarmed meter maids. They write parking tickets. They rarely get into gun fights. They rarely get shot at. Because when you encounter a meter made even if you’re a career criminal, they’re just going to give you a ticket. You know this can’t escalate in spiral out of control. So people don’t shoot meter maids.
So what you’re saying is make it a wrist slap and nobody will get upset? lol. Forget the fact you’re moving the goalpost from, “they retaliated because of prison conditions” to, “it’s because the police were armed!”
The real reason is these were bad dudes in a terrible state of mind and society failed them long before this point. More criminals voluntarily do a crime just to get 3 meals a day and shelter. Can’t be that terrible if many are doing that, can it? It’s also not like people don’t resist arrest in countries where police are unarmed.l
I’m not going to discount America’s plethora of issues from 1) terrible education, 2) terrible health care systems, and 3) Below-average prison conditions just to name the big 3.
But, this guy had a massive criminal record going back over a decade. He was a massive piece of shit, and the vast majority of people served warrants simply do not engage in a shoot-out, putting a child and mother at risk. For as much shit as I give police officers, this is a reflection of the criminal’s state of mind and not anything the police did. I seriously doubt this dude had the foresight to consider prison conditions.
As you said he has a big criminal record, maybe this would be his third strike? Maybe this would end his parole etc…
So let’s work with the theory this was the straw that would break the camel’s back, third strike possession of a firearm, send him away forever. I’m not saying I agree with his actions, but I can see how people would react in that situation
He’s been well beyond the 3rd strike for quite some time as I gleaned from reading.
There’s really no good alternative about it. The police did what they should’ve done. They got a warrant and pursued a bad guy. There really is no justification for what he did. If anything, it justifies arming the police more in order to enforce the law; for there is no substantive evidence to the contrary to suggest that if they came bearing balloons and flowers he wouldn’t gun them down just the same. That’s the thing about criminally insane people… They are not consistent.
What he did is ensure every cop is doubly-armed and on-edge in the future, for every cop has no alternative. After all, they don’t control the prison system or the healthcare system or the education system.
One point I haven’t seen mentioned, is the severity of punishment. Why did this person feel it was better to fight to the death rather than let the police take them? Could it because of draconian prison policies where they would go back to jail for years and years and years possibly forever?
If every interaction of the police is potentially completely life-changing, it makes people act very desperate
And maybe if the courts were worth half a shit, I would just stand up for myself the proper way, but not after being jailed for 10 months having my court date indefinitely moved up until I was too broken to not take the plea deal.
This. A lot of people don’t get that “hard on crime” is some authoritarian bullshit that creates crime as a self-fullfilling prophecy.
Shit, you’re gonna put me to jail for 8 months, ruin my life completely, and then send me to prison, where I’ll have whatever psyche broken down into a million pieces as I work in what can only be described as the western goulags?
My gun could also go clap clap, because why not?
So there is a statistic that 70%ish of prisoners return to prison within 5 years.
It was one of the things that “radicalized” me when I learned it.
Yeah, who knew recidivism would be super high when you have a prison industrial complex that only exists to grind down the poor and lock up undesirable subcultures with little to no effort put into reforming the prisoners or returning them to society in any fashion that allows them to reintegrate? And that doesn’t even begin to touch on the reactions of society at large to former inmates trying to to get themselves back on their feet, and how they’re shit out of so many opportunities that would help them become functional members of society.
Having seen this multiple times with family members, I can confirm through anecdotal experience that reintegration isn’t something that comes without massive struggles, and fails more often than not.
No don’t you see, working manual labor inside an active wildfire for $0.13 an hour so you can buy a $5 Top Ramen to avoid eating the chlorinated sewer runoff they call food (see the infamous prison loaf) is totally different from gulags.
p.s. don’t bother applying for the same job you did for free in prison once you’re out, having a record disqualifies you! Good luck paying rent!
I wonder how much burden we could take off the justice system if we allowed canning to be used as punishment instead of incarceration.
We all luckily we have history to tell you that
Whenever anyone tries to tell me that we should expand execution as a way to determine crime I point at England’s Bloody Code where they hanged people for pretty damn near everything and it just made crime skyrocket.
Turns out, when the state treats their citizens as violent dangerous animals that need to be controlled, that tends to be what they create.
You’ve attached a lot of weight onto mere speculation.
Is that how the daisy holds up the elephant?
As an example consider unarmed meter maids. They write parking tickets. They rarely get into gun fights. They rarely get shot at. Because when you encounter a meter made even if you’re a career criminal, they’re just going to give you a ticket. You know this can’t escalate in spiral out of control. So people don’t shoot meter maids.
What the actual fuck hahaha.
So what you’re saying is make it a wrist slap and nobody will get upset? lol. Forget the fact you’re moving the goalpost from, “they retaliated because of prison conditions” to, “it’s because the police were armed!”
The real reason is these were bad dudes in a terrible state of mind and society failed them long before this point. More criminals voluntarily do a crime just to get 3 meals a day and shelter. Can’t be that terrible if many are doing that, can it? It’s also not like people don’t resist arrest in countries where police are unarmed.l
There might be some systemic reason why the United States has the most bad dudes per capita as evidenced by prisoner population.
And yes the severity of punishment does factor into how strongly people resist being punished.
Is the goal to make people suffer? Or is the goal to rehabilitate people?
I’m not going to discount America’s plethora of issues from 1) terrible education, 2) terrible health care systems, and 3) Below-average prison conditions just to name the big 3.
But, this guy had a massive criminal record going back over a decade. He was a massive piece of shit, and the vast majority of people served warrants simply do not engage in a shoot-out, putting a child and mother at risk. For as much shit as I give police officers, this is a reflection of the criminal’s state of mind and not anything the police did. I seriously doubt this dude had the foresight to consider prison conditions.
As you said he has a big criminal record, maybe this would be his third strike? Maybe this would end his parole etc…
So let’s work with the theory this was the straw that would break the camel’s back, third strike possession of a firearm, send him away forever. I’m not saying I agree with his actions, but I can see how people would react in that situation
He’s been well beyond the 3rd strike for quite some time as I gleaned from reading.
There’s really no good alternative about it. The police did what they should’ve done. They got a warrant and pursued a bad guy. There really is no justification for what he did. If anything, it justifies arming the police more in order to enforce the law; for there is no substantive evidence to the contrary to suggest that if they came bearing balloons and flowers he wouldn’t gun them down just the same. That’s the thing about criminally insane people… They are not consistent.
What he did is ensure every cop is doubly-armed and on-edge in the future, for every cop has no alternative. After all, they don’t control the prison system or the healthcare system or the education system.