I’ve been seeing a lot of anti-voting sentiment going around. Can’t believe I have to say this, but you need to vote. Not only is there more to the election than just the president. (State policy, Senate, house), but not voting is not an act of protest. C’mon guys
I stand with Israeli and Palestinian civilians, all of whom are victims of Hamas and the Netanyahu regime.
This is objectively correct and based.
The sentiments in this thread (by large) are objectively correct and based as well. I am impressed with you, 196
o7
Seriously. I get feeling like you don’t have much of a choice, but not voting is just giving up. Like, you’re actively removing the little choice you have and handing democracy over to an overt fascist.
Literally
Literally, indeed. (An up vote wasn’t enough)
Third party candidates still exist and are legitimate options to vote for despite what everyone wants you to believe.
3rd party is a lost vote. Parties need to start small and build. Everyone knows this.
>3rd party is a lost vote. Parties need to start small and build.
no, this is all wrong
None of the 3rd party candidates has national support or awareness. If you start small, you build support at a local level. People see what you can do and it instills faith while bringing in donations. As more people join the party, your influence grows. A real 3rd party candidate, who isn’t super rich or funded by rich donors looking to spoil the election, has never shown up.
>A real 3rd party candidate, who isn’t super rich or funded by rich donors looking to spoil the election, has never shown up.
then how do you know the right method?
Because people smarter than me have done the research and I am merely repeating it for everyone’s benefit.
can you cite any academic studies on this?
You know what also helps third parties? Votes.
Without votes what purpose do they have in continuing?
There are no 3rd party conservative candidates. The cult of power (GOP) makes no room for competition. 3rd party candidates only exist to split the progressive/non-fascist and are usually funded by conservative donors for that very reason. If a 3rd party candidate was funded by grassroots support and had actually gained popularity by repressing a large constituency, the votes would mean something.
The Libertarian party is a third party conservative party and they did take votes away from Trump last election
I dunno, I don’t feel like a lot of otherwise dems (or at least not more than gop) would vote for RFK. And historically I don’t think the progressive side was voting for Ross Perot (as an independent) or the libertarians who still run within the gop like Ron or Rand Paul.
“everyone knows” is a thought terminating cliche
And how can those small third parties grow if people don’t vote for them?
Got them into local positions and let them build power in the lower levels before moving up. Voting at the federal level for anyone other than the big two is a wasted vote at this time
Start small, at the local level. City, county, school board, or even a state representative. You build up a following starting at a smaller level because there are fewer people to have to convince to vote for you.
In the realities of the US electoral system, a vote for a third party is akin to a vote for Trump. Twist and spin all you want, but that’s reality.
Anyone who argues this is either naive, or a disinformation Russian asset.
Why isnt a third party vote a vote for biden?
While technically “possible”, the likelihood of Trump supporters switching to vote 3rd party is very low at this point.
Just about everyone talking about voting third party is a progressive that would have voted for Biden. If they weren’t being duped by Russians.
Explain “duped by Russians”, and how trump voters are not being duped by Russians while unconvinced biden voters are.
They are being duped by Russians… into voting for Trump. But anyway, the question is who the third party voter would have voted for otherwise.
Maybe for some local elections. But you really need heavy support, otherwise you’re dividing the vote which can lead to more harm. Some places have rank based voting now though which makes it possible to vote for 3rd parties without dividing the vote. Hopefully that becomes more common.
I get where you’re coming from. I’m definitely in favour of a ranked choice voting approach cause it does a lot more to get rid of the spoiler or dividing vote fallacy.
The entire spoiler or dividing vote hoax is based on this false assumption that the voters carry the responsibility for not voting for a “lesser evil” candidate when that burden of responsibility should instead be on the nominee for not doing enough in their power to win over votes.
With the current election, Biden is being a complete dumbass and is hemorrhaging support from Arab Americans and young people because of his refusal to stop giving weapons and aid to Israel and properly withholding those until a full and permanent ceasefire is reached. He’s also losing support from Hispanics, though the reasons there are more to do with how he hasn’t been doing enough to better the lives of working-class people.
Arab Americans and young people aren’t going to turn around and vote for Trump, or in the off chance he receives a conviction before November, whoever else the Republican nominee will be. They’re more likely to vote third-party or independent or not vote at all, and unfortunately with the latter, that’s when the burden of responsibility becomes shared.
Ah a Trump supporter! Let me know how that works out for you!
Question? How did Trump treat Arabs last time? Did they enjoy the travel ban? The exponential increase in hate towards them in this country?
Once Trump, wins and helps Israel turn Gaza to glass, will helping him win make them feel good? Once Trump puts them in concentration camps in this country, will they be happy?
When, Trump cements his dictatorship so there is no vote in 2028, will they they be satisfied?
I don’t like Biden, but not supporting him now, is supporting a repeat of 1930s Germany…
The entire spoiler or dividing vote hoax is based on this false assumption that the voters carry the responsibility for not voting for a “lesser evil” candidate when that burden of responsibility should instead be on the nominee for not doing enough in their power to win over votes
No, that’s just plain incorrect. The spoiler vote phenomenon is an inevitable consequence of our first-past-the-post election system. Whatever you start from, this voting system trends to two parties over time. You can model this and watch it play out. It’s not a hoax. We even saw Ross Perot make a serious run at the presidency in the 90s, and he ended up with zero electoral votes, and 4 years later he did much worse and his Reform party fizzled out and nothing came of it. Because it is absolutely suboptimal in our voting system.
I’m voting for a 3rd party in the general bc my state is a staunchly blue state (every presidential election since 1972) so my vote counts more that way. If I lived in a swing state like WI, PA, GA, AZ, CO, etc, I would definitely vote Dem.
Whats the point? To chose between disney fascist and a consevative fascist?
BoTh SiDes ArE ThE SaMe
At what point did they say that? Of course the Republicans are miles worse than the Democrats, but why should people sit there and be like “oh, let me just vote for genocide lite when the other party is genocide standard”
Edit: slight edit since Kbin notifs are weird.
People should not actively vote FOR increasing genocide, which supporting Trump does. Not only there but bringing it here against US Arabs and LGBTQ people. And also opens up the VERY real possibility of this country turning into a dictatorship in which there won’t be more votes.
Vote for an independent candidate. People have this wild notion that voting for a third-party candidate means you’re throwing your vote away.
You’re not. You’re voting for the candidate that best represents your values. People who say otherwise have fallen for the brainrot talking point that’s been around since Ross Perot ran in '96.
How is it wise to vote for a candidate that has no discernible chance of winning the election, and is therefore incapable of actually representing my interests in government?
^ this guy wants trump to win the election.
Ah yes, label me as a Trump sympathizer, cause that definitely helps your cause with the average joe.
If only Perot had just won those extra 370 electoral college votes.
Hm, almost as though Democrats should be pressured by voters to abolish the electoral college… wonder what will change their stance on that.
Maybe… if the Democrats saw their support weakening as a result of their terrible policies… hmmmm.
Democrat-leaning states are already working towards that.. The idea is that if they have 270 electoral votes worth of states signed up, they will all agree to change their electoral delegates to follow the national popular vote, effectively ending the electoral college. It’s not really a democratic push, but it’s an idea that would only be popular with the party that aligns with the national majority. They currently have 205 EVs committed.
Nothing wild about it.
Either
- vote for the only worthy contender against Trump
or
- vote for someone who isn’t that contender and therefore not for the only worthy contender Biden
If you decide for the latter you’ll risk to never really vote again. Read the signs on the wall. It’s the “What would I have done if I was a german under Hitler” phase, the USA citizens are in right now. If your prefer the stuff that’s going on in Hungary under Orban or worse, go on, vote 3rd party.
Edit:
Germany is in a similar situation in the next federal parliament election although we got more weighty contenders in the parliament than only dems and reps. Our Biden vote equals to 2 parties (labour party and the greens) out of 6. The remaining 4 parties would be a Trump vote (AfD). The outcome of that election would define the politics for unforseeable future and was and is the reason for the mass protests in germany.
Edit 2:
We’d probably have more leeway as the AfD would not straight be elected but mainly the CDU who would choose the chancelor (Either Söder or the german Trump light Friedrich Merz). There would be many more compromises made with AfD (farfarfar right) with a CDU chancelor than under a new labor (SPD) and Greens chancelor. The dream would be if The Greens got a majority. Then Habeck would be chancelor.
Yes! It has and always will be about voting for the person you dislike the least. You need to grow up if you think otherwise
You need to do some critical thinking. Vote for the person who best aligns with your beliefs, not which of the two big names you hate less.
You need to do some critical thinking. The reason one would dislike one candidate more is because they align less with beliefs.
Tell that to women and trans people. If Trump wasn’t elected we’d still have roe v Wade and federal judges that would strike down a lot of the anti trans laws being put out, plus those states wouldn’t have been empowered to do so in the first place.
Lol. As if trans people in red states will be any better off with Biden as president again. Or trans people in blue states any worse under Trump. The feds aren’t doing anything about all the states that are doing the most heinous shit to trans people already.
Don’t threaten me with my sister’s death to coerce me to support the genocidal regime currently in power.
They don’t keep us safe. We keep us safe.
The Republican Party is not the party of small government. They are a fascist death cult and they will bring their anti-trans bills from red states to the federal government. Trans people will be erased from public life. Trans people will be discriminated in the work force and undoubtedly find it difficult to pay rent as a result. Trans people are going to end up homeless on the streets if Republicans win in 2024.
The Supreme Court is hearing a case about homeless encampments. Homeless encampments may soon lose the current legal protection they have under the Eight Amendment. The current logic being that chasing away people who have no where left to go is cruel and unusual punishment.
https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/city-of-grants-pass-oregon-v-johnson/
Even blue states like Oregon and California asked the Supreme Court to review the case.
https://nypost.com/2024/03/09/opinion/the-supreme-court-could-soon-outlaw-homeless-camps/
Multiple prominent Democrats petitioned the Supreme Court to review Grants Pass, including California Gov. Gavin Newsom, San Francisco mayor London Breed, and Portland mayor Ted Wheeler.
It is not guaranteed that blue states will be safe havens for anyone. Here is an official statement from Governor Gavin Newsom.
“California has invested billions to address homelessness, but rulings from the bench have tied the hands of state and local governments to address this issue.
“The Supreme Court can now correct course and end the costly delays from lawsuits that have plagued our efforts to clear encampments and deliver services to those in need.”
If Trump wins in 2024, he wants to make homelessness illegal. Homeless people are going to end up in death camps.
Trump said his proposal calls for creating “tent cities” and relocating homeless people to “large parcels of inexpensive land” with access to doctors, psychiatrists, social workers and drug rehab specialists. He claims his plan will once again make cities “livable” and “beautiful.”
A trans homeless person is as least as likely to end up in a death camp as a cis homeless person. And trans people have a good chance of being homeless if they can’t get a job because Republicans allow corporations to discriminate against them in the work place. Trans people will be worse off no matter where they are in America.
If the Democrats are also pushing to make being homeless illegal why is that an incentive to vote for them? I guess I don’t get your point. You think Biden doesn’t feel the same way about Martin v Boise as Newsom?
If the Democrats are also pushing to make being homeless illegal why is that an incentive to vote for them?
My point is Democrats want to overturn the status quo. The blue states assume they are going to get to decide what happens to homeless people next, presumably for the better. Unfortunately for them, a second Trump term would undoubtedly render homelessness illegal at the federal level. Best-laid plans gone awry thanks to Trump.
If the Republicans win in 2024 they will have control of all three branches of the federal government. They will be able reshape America how they see fit, and states rights are not going to stop them. States rights were only ever a justification from Republicans to turn their states into authoritarian christofascist workshops. Now they going to take what they’ve learned and practiced to the federal level and won’t care about state rights whatsoever.
The blue states assume they are going to get to decide what happens to homeless people next, presumably for the better.
The blue states are pushing to be allowed to put homeless people in jail again. Martin v. Boise required you to have enough shelter beds/housing available before you could force homeless people to leave the street. The blue states are joining the SCOTUS case because they will not build shelters. If that doesn’t indicate that they have no intention of doing better, idk what does.
They will be able reshape America how they see fit
They don’t need the other two branches of government to do this. They’ve already got the only one that matters and are doing it now even with a Democrat in the Oval Office.
The blue states are joining the SCOTUS case because they will not build shelters.
Again, here is Governor Gavin Newsom’s official statement. He seems intent on providing services to homeless people. Presumably that would include shelter.
“California has invested billions to address homelessness, but rulings from the bench have tied the hands of state and local governments to address this issue.
“The Supreme Court can now correct course and end the costly delays from lawsuits that have plagued our efforts to clear encampments and deliver services to those in need.”
It’s fair to not trust what someone says. At least with Democrats when they outwardly claim to have homeless people’s interests at heart, since they are neoliberals as opposed to fascists I am inclined to believe them. However, I disagree with the need to remove homeless camps in order to provide services to people. If the services are good and this is effectively communicated to people, I think most people in need of those services will take them voluntarily.
This is opposed to the fascists in the Republican party who want to put homeless people in what will no doubt turn out to be death camps.
They don’t need the other two branches of government to do this. They’ve already got the only one that matters and are doing it now even with a Democrat in the Oval Office.
If Republicans want to make homelessness illegal at the federal level, they will need Congress to pass legislation and the presidency to sign the bill into law. All the Supreme Court can do is remove homeless encampments’ Eighth Amendment protection based on the current question they are trying to answer. They could also assign whether they think the federal or state governments have the authority to write legislation to address homeless encampments. As they did recently with Trump v. Anderson. However the Supreme Court cannot write or sign into law any such legislation themselves.
I was just going to post this just for fun, but they actually raise a good point. Even with only Trump in office, without a Republican controlled congress, he can do a lot of damage with just executive orders.
You can assure me that a Republican triple majority won’t pass a national abortion ban?
Why would they need either the legislature or the presidency?
Because you can’t unilaterally pass federal laws as the minority party?
If you’re the majority party on the Supreme Court I think it’s quite evident that neither of the other two branches really matter.
What laws have the Supreme Court passed, exactly?
Well, if you care about people’s wellbeing you gotta see what Genocide Joe is doing in palestine. Idk what Trump did but i dont remember he killing 15000 children
Actually Trump did MUCH WORSE… And is literally saying he would turn Gaza into a glass now…
But you knew that Russian troll.
Id like to know about what he did that is worse. Any source in english, spanish, portuguese or italian is welcome
You’re either a plant or you’re dangerously uninformed.
If Trump and his christofascist sect wins, all arabic people in the region will be expelled or genocided.
If the crazies behind Trump with their playbook “Project 2025” get their way it would be really the “Lord have mercy” phase in humanities history.
This article shows the grand picture which should frighten every world citizen, considering we talk about the greatest military power with an unhinged Commander in Chief who is commanded himself by even more sinister manipulators.
“Many Republicans express their unwavering support for Israel in biblical and apocalyptic terms. Rep. Mike Johnson, a Christian evangelical, made his first public appearance after being elected House speaker last October at a conference of the Republican Jewish Coalition, where he said that “God is not done with Israel.””
Compare that to president Biden openly criticising Netanyahu and vice-president Harris calling for a ceasefire now.
Your insult just doesn’t make sense. I hope you see that. I heard that nearly every US president after WW2 was unconditionally pro Israel. And at least some of the dems (including the president) currently seem to begin to grasp that Israel is going terribly wrong with their methods in the war on Gaza. Your current government has the best chances to bring it to an end if they go just one step further. Biden said in the interview on MSNBC he’d always support them with their Iron Dome but it seemed, although he didn’t say it directly, that he wouldn’t support them above that, if Netanyahu crosses a red line.
Choose wisely.
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In politics what people do is way more important than what they say. Not saying Trump is reasonable in any way, he killed Soleimani for no reason at all. But Biden have a genocide in his curriculum
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Where did i insult you?
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Biden is not my government. Idc if he curses and tell Netanyahu to eat shit, as long as he is providing weapons and money he is a genocidal ghoul. You are so easily fooled by nice words but dont forget who’s the weapon supplier to this genocide
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Jup. That execution was extremely dangerous and I’m sure Iran is still pondering how they could take revenge. Another possible fubar situation if he comes to power. Iran launching a new 9/11 as a retribution for their national hero.
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Not meant that you insulted me but rather 46. You’re free to do of course but I don’t think it fits. I can’t imagine it’s Biden who’s giving commands to carpet bomb Gaza, block aid deliveries or to shoot ~100 people fighting for said deliveries.
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I’m not well informed about the independent candidates in the US and their stance to help for Israel. But even if there are some very left parties with no-aid for Israel policy would they stand any chance to against Orange Cheato? After him it’s just game over. He would be dictator for lifetime. And Don Jr. after. Remember it’s very hard for US presidents to traditionally not support Israel militarywise. This doctrine seems to become a bit brittle lately.
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if voting changed shit it would have been made illegal. don’t legitimize slavery by acts of expressing gratitude for being able to pick your masters.
Not sure how to tell you this, but the Right has spent years and millions of dollars trying to make voting illegal for its opponents.
So… I guess it does change shit, by your definition.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/03/us/politics/trump-voter-rolls.html
The people of USA succesfully beat two tyrannical systems in 18th and 19th century so why wouldn’t they now if the current state of things deteriorates in that direction. And so did the Russians who have lived under the tsarist tyranny. Or the people oppressed by the colonial regimes who have not attained their independence as a gesture of good will. Or Cubans overthrowing Batista. Or Chileans ousting Pinochet. Or South Africans overthrowing the apartheid.
All of that required militancy. Polite pleas are not a language tyrants understand. But, by extension, blind faith in electoralism has failed when the KPD failed to respond with proper militancy to the Reichstag fire decree in 1933. The militancy must be proactive. One should not be deluded that a “progressive” government will welcome with open arms any advanced, massive expression of social anger any more than a reactionary one would. See France where it is basic street knowledge to wear at least a solid fucking helmet with plexiglass visor to any protest if you don’t want to say, lose an eye under the oh-so-benevolvent rule of the liberal Macron.
Aaron Bushnell had a gun pointed against him as he died.
Yes, that’s all true. But that’s a good argument for “You shouldn’t only vote,” not “You shouldn’t vote.” See the difference?
If the only action we take is voting, then the tyrants who aren’t constrained by law will win. If the only action we take is direct action, then the tyrants win as soon as they outgun us. If we use voting to advance things in civil society inside the lines and direct action to keep the tyrants playing inside the lines, we win.
Reactionaries, like real fucking fascist shock troops are actually a minority compared to interwar period. Most Trump voters are just tired, frustrated and desperate, not actually fanatically rallying behind him. His bravado may resonate with some social anger but it will probably run out of steam as soon as people find out he offers no real solutions. On the contrary, Nazis and fascists were able to rally a significant number of strata of the population. So let’s compare the relevance and position of the groups upon which the Italian, Spanish and German fascists based themselves:
- Demobilized soldiers and mercenaries like the Moroccans in Spain and Freikorps
Nowadays many people join the military in the US just to get free college and healthcare etc. And yet they still fall short of their recruitment targets. See the recent protests in solidarity with Aaron Bushnell. Also after WW I most armies were infantry based and there was initially mass unemployment amongst the veterans.
- Medium to large-scale landowners/peasants
1-3% of the society. And if anything, their militancy at least makes the ruling class tremble, lest it was adopted by workers.
- Clergy
Even in the US religion is losing relevance
- Students
Massively shifted to the left almost everywhere
- Small business owners
They are still getting screwed every once in a while by the ruthless law of the accumulation of capital but still mostly they might be partly correct but still go into some major distortions in their understanding of things. Petty bourgeoisie is not a revolutionary class. But at the same time, they no longer compete with other small business owners of other (Jewish) ethnicity but actually rely heavily on unskilled migrant labor
- Organized criminals
Crime has mostly economic causes. For massive spike in crime that could serve as the manpower pool for the fascist militias, the system would actually need to be built on a prejudice against white males, not just in /pol/cel projections grounded in not seeing shit primarily through economic lenses.
So even if the unavoidable aggravation of capitalism’s agony happens sooner:
- to reject the possibility of emerging from it victorious is actually a defeatist internalization of downplaying the potential of own class, just what the porky wants
- to tail the liberals will not serve in any way to convince the less politically educated people that we are any alternative…
- …and if anything, ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy for their besieged fortress myth about some leftist conspiracy
- most dictators came to power not by election, but by a coup or manipulation
- even if we think about the most notable example when they did, that is in Germany in the 30s, it’s all actually vastly different. While KPD’s sectarianism towards SPD and the refusal to take advantage of several revolutionary situations were what led to it not being able to successfully withstand Hitler, there are some key differences here:
Democrats are as much of a millionaire club as Republicans. SPD was a massive workers’ organization. CPUSA actually endorses Biden because that’s what most IMCWP parties not in power do: legitimize the status quo and maintain a watered-down programme. No diff here with CPRF in Russia. And such sort of passivity and conservatism is what permeated the leadership of KPD under Thälmann and it is the reason why a revolutionary party aspiring to stand as an independent force that won’t ever let itself be co-opted into the system is needed.
I get that feeling of FOMO. But ask yourself, which do you think matters more against millions of other voters whom you’ll never talk to:
a) voting
b) organizing to defend yourself against the Trump regime, by force if necessary where a loud and consequent group can easily sway thousands if not millions under the right conditions. That vs trying to basically convince people why one shade of the same color is better than the other which serves mostly narrowing their worldview and proving that you are not willing to stand up for your ideas.
They are, especially in the south. Or did you sleep in on 1/6? Express your democratic right, or loose it.
in this day and age, there is no progressive wing of the bourgeoisie. Revolutionary communists fight for a workers’ government and do not give any support to any capitalist party or politician. (…) However, mass dissatisfaction with the Democrats does not mean a majority of Americans are right-wing reactionaries. On the contrary, most people merely want stability, good jobs and wages, and a safe and healthy place to raise a family. But this simply isn’t possible for everyone under capitalism. The exploitation of wage-labor by capital and the relentless drive for profits precludes this. As an arch-capitalist himself, Trump can’t square the circle either, and he is merely filling the political vacuum in a temporary and distorted way. If reelected, those workers attracted by his poisonous bravado will eventually realize that no American president can magically wave their problems away.
https://socialistrevolution.org/election-2024-why-genocide-joe-and-trumps-system-has-to-go/
Evil is evil and lesser evilism is a disgusting idea.
And when it comes to Trump, just as Hegel put it, historical necessity is often expressed through accident. Donald Trump is a giant, catastrophic accident for the capitalist class.
Most brain-dead take right here
…slavery???
stagnant wages, no real influence on the politics because the Overton’s window is so narrow and all major parties filled with out of touch millionaires and also just because the political system does not really benefit a common person in a meaningful way, the cost of living and debt crisis, needing to join the military for basic public services, creeping corporate censorship and oligopolization creating a generation of dependent, depressed people with growing self-censorship instinct?
Ok but none of this is slavery. I wouldn’t even call it indentured servitude. There’s a million miles between things sucking and being literally enslaved
Yeah I mean police brutality exists and although a peaceful revolution would be preferable to adventurist bloodshed, we must reckon with the high odds of the powers that be not giving up their power to “the mob” peacefully, this bears no comparison to the rampant abuse of the rural south before the Second American Revolution. But still for real emancipation I believe a third revolution is needed, first the colonial rule, then chattel slavery and now the oligarchic, imperialist capitalism need to go. The continued existence of the previous two was an impendance to the proper development of the United States (the latter two also a humanitarian tragedy, first directly, the latter indirectly*) while nowadays it is also and probably even more importantly, not just anymore due to the climate crisis but also due to hawkish foreign policies being on the rise – a threat to the continued existence of humanity.
- I think I get your point. We used to have that buffer called the middle class that for decades ensured some relative social peace and fostered some faith in the American dream because some people were able to advance socioeconomically. But we are the first generation to actually have a worse standard of living than our parents, so all of that is crumbling. I used to be a software developer but the absolute shitshow that has been the 4-month long failed job hunt in the current state of the market forced me to become a food delivery driver. It all feels so disempowering when you feel your efforts amount to nothing. And I believe it’s not just me. Lots of young people have been scammed into wasting their time and money pursuing degrees that produced no ROI for them. I now really think I should’ve trained to become an electrician or other deficient, decently paying blue-collar vocation but now if I don’t find at least a support/admin job in IT soon it will be another couple years of debt and uncertainty and feeling easily replaceable, cheated out of future after being promised an irrationally exaggerated market value.
But I feel like again, I’m not alone in this sentiment and soon we’ll see another wave of people training for highly demanded blue collar jobs, the market will saturate and some people will again end up feeling duped into another Ponzi scheme with their livelihoods. Because capitalism is a permanent crisis of overproduction, chaos and speculation, a dog eat dog world
inb4 Ayn Rand’s “Anthem”
I don’t really care about getting rich. I actually care about my craft and believe everyone should be able to do what they are passionate about without the fear of hunger, not receiving healthcare or homelessness. Most commercial software development is just as wasteful as marketing anyway.
Russian spies. Nice try.
Also I hope the Russian government is overthrown by it’s people and that the right to the self determination of the myriad of ethnic groups of Russia is actually honored instead of them being used as a cannon fodder to oppress another nation.
I live in Russia. First, that won’t happen soon, it’s a bad situation with apathy, fragmentation and decay. Second, that myriad of ethnic groups is by geographic distribution mostly unable to secede as states with clearly defined borders. Third, where they can (say, North Caucasus), they depend on central financing to not be terribly poor (and they are still very poor).
isn’t Tuva an exception in this case due to it’s isolation? Also a question of leadership, how relevant was Boris Kagarlitsky, actually?
Not of the third point.
Also a question of leadership, how relevant was Boris Kagarlitsky, actually?
So relevant that I’ve heard about him a few times, but never paid attention.
Incredible how the majority of their comments come at hrs when most Americans are in bed…
but election rigging in post-Soviet Russia was actually started by the CIA to not let the communists get back to power in 1996 elections. Which is actually yet another proof that what is needed in any country really is a revolution and actual thorough democratization of every aspect of social and economic life possible, instead of neo-aristocratic electoralism. And that to that goal, a party able to lead a way towards it is needed (instead of trying to work within those that actually just prop up the system and will actively fight back when that is challenged (look up SJ Voralberg case in Austria as the most recent example, or even more glaringly, CPRF purging anti-war faction or the Blairite hostile takeover in Labour a couple years ago)), which was sadly lacking in Russia in the 90s as well as today.
what is needed in any country really is a revolution and actual thorough democratization of every aspect of social and economic life possible
Good luck accomplishing any of that while under a dictatorship :)
the iranians revolted… into another dictatorship…
and the french revolution ended swell! wait
what about the cuban revolution? oh god damn it
lol i’m just kidding, i can think of a few. the italian civil war and the libyan civil war, and technically the russian revolution and german revolution but i guess it helps when the government you’re fighting against is getting brutally beaten in a war against other countries. but i can’t say all of those ended in an extremely democratic system
First of all, I will absolutely be voting in the general, for whoever has the backing of the Democrat party, whether that be Biden or someone else if something unforseen happens. However, I think it’s important to recognize a few key key matters.
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Not voting is an act of protest, but it is a largely ineffective form of protest. Protesting is the way the people voice their concerns, and deliberately not voting is in fact a way of voicing concern. However, this is an emotional, unobjective form.
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Biden, and the overall US war machine, is complicit in genocide. This fact should not be denied for the sake of an election. Simply voting third party is unobjective, this results in the outward fascists taking power, but at the same time, toeing the line results in further entrenchment of liberalism.
How can we resolve the former 2 statements? Simple. Protest loud, as much as you can, during the primaries. Force Biden’s hand.
Just as we can hold people responsible if they vote third party during the general, or not voting, we can also hold Biden accountable. This isn’t simply a matter like Single Payer Healthcare, which would take tremendous effort with the support of congress to pass, this is something in his hands.
I’ll reiterate: if your goal is to help the Palestinian people, there is only one correct path: protest as much as you can, as early as you can, until Biden caves and ceases the genocide. If you do not protest Biden now, while we still have the chance to change his course, then we risk protests lasting even longer and hurting his chances during the General, backfiring.
The Condition for Victory is a swift, loud, uncontestable wake-up call for Biden, followed by rallied support once genuine, positive change is shown to happen. Biden has already started to feel the pressure, and has begun sending some petty aid. Biden cannot risk losing the general, and we cannot risk Biden losing the general either, nor can we stand by and watch Biden support genocide.
Vote in the Primary against Biden, and vote in the General for Biden.
Not voting to protest is as effective as setting yourself on fire in a first world country.
It’s not particularly effective, but is still a form of protest. It’s important to recognize it as such, because:
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It means that there are people who are attempting to have their voice heard
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They can be steered towards better forms of getting what they want if they are shown better forms of praxis.
At the end of the day, protectors are people with goals, and if you can convince them that this goal may be met more effectively otherwise, they can be allies.
Unfortunately, lots of folks here on lemmy seem antithetical to the idea that slow or minor progress still counts as progress. Maybe it’s a communication issue inherent to this format, but the crux of the argument I see most often is “Biden did genocide, genocide is bad. Therefore, any support for Biden is support for genocide outright.”
It seems like an inability or unwillingness to recognize degrees of tragedy…it’s the worst case of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m getting pretty damn nervous about the number of folks saying outright that they won’t ever vote for Biden because they don’t accept the premise that, as long as we still have FPTP elections and the electoral college, voting anyone other than the mainstream Dem candidate makes a Republican victory more likely, regardless of the candidates either party puts forward. I know that at least some of these folks are just trolls, but we’re on a razor-thin margin, and in a scenario where 100k votes across a handful of states will likely decide the contest, I worry about even a single person being talked out of participating meaningfully in the election.
It’s exasperated by the fact that, for a lot of young voters, every election they’ve been old enough to participate in has been a boring old white person vs a wannabe dictator and so they’ve started feeling like “it’s the most important election ever” is just a scare tactic to make them vote blue.
I think a key issue here is that you’re combining unlike things and trying to make coherent sense of that, rather than analyzing what is driving people to feel this way.
The first part you mentioned, is a key disagreement you have with people opposing reformism. A significant part of leftist history is the conflict between reform and revolution, whether reform is even possible at a large scale or if revolution will ever be more likely to succeed, and so forth. The people opposing reform are not saying that incremental change isn’t good, but that:
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Incremental change is simply too little, too late, in a modern late-stage Capitalist dystopia
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Because the course of politics in modern first world Capitalist counties like the US follows whatever the interests of large Capitalists are, any meaningful reform will be hindered or even reversed unless the system is overthrown in its entirety.
The second claim, that Biden doing genocide is bad and voting for Biden is voting for continued genocide, is built off of the prior point. Because voting for a right winger like Biden or a fascist like Trump will both result in more genocide, their conclusion is that voting for either is to continue genocide, though it remains implicit that if Biden stopped the genocide, they would vote for him.
I of course believe it would get worse under Trump, so as I already mentioned, I will vote for Biden. However, I also understand that protesting against Biden is the best way to change his course now, rather than later.
The final disagreement you have with these people is the idea that Biden is a “slow good” rather than a “slow evil.” You’re not talking to liberals, you’re talking to leftists, who wish to see some form of Socialism take place in America. Biden is continuing the Imperialist project of American Liberalism at the expense of Workers both inside and outside of the US, you can’t convince leftists that Biden is good, actually.
The truly best way to get leftists to vote for Biden is to get them to see what is directly more beneficial to the international Proletariat, protest voting for a third party or picking Biden and trying to use that time to organize on the ground, which is easier than under Trump. That’s the real key, not to try to convince them Biden is good but slow.
This is actually very useful framing…I’m gonna chew on this for a bit and try to untangle some of my own implicit premises.
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Never said it wasn’t a form of protest. I said it’s not effective and I’d like to add that it’s also very dumb. Like setting yourself on fire in a first world country.
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Thank you. So tired of people who never vote in primaries complaining about how the candidates are bad.
Sucky candidates are not merely the product of failing to vote in the primaries. Both parties have systems that favor money and endorsement by legacy establishment figures over popularity, and additional policies are added when a popular antiestablishment candidate slips into office (like Occasio-Cortez).
It’s telling in 2020 the DNC elected the most right-wing, establishment candidate that wasn’t a far right Billionaire when we had numerous more moderate options.
The US is in the iron grip of boomer conservatives clinging to power as demonstrated by multiple officials succumbing to age and dementia. The people really don’t have much say.
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Oh, I’ll be voting.
For Claudia De La Cruz.
EDIT: People hard mad about this lmao
Looked her up. What a legend! Will definitely be using her name in plave of blank “vote third party” from here out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudia_de_la_Cruz
So basically you won’t be voting.
You will make no measurable impact on the outcome of the election. The election where one of two specific people will take power. And one of them already tried to end American democracy.
She can win if you vote for her 😘
No she fucking can’t.
Grow up.
Grow up and vote for the genocide, sweaty.
Tell me with a straight face The Idiot would do anything better, vis-a-vis Israel. Lie to me good.
Moral dilemmas don’t go away if you smug at them hard enough.
First candidate to not support genocide gets my vote.
GrOw uP!
Third party candidates might have a chance if we convince our political leaders to switch to ranked choice voting, so we’ll be able to write “I’d like her to win, but I’d still prefer Biden to Trump” on our ballots. In that case, even if the rest of the nation didn’t agree with us, we still wouldn’t have someone who calls immigrants vermin in the white house. With first past the post, nobody who doesn’t have a D or R next to their name has a ghost of a chance.
No one knows who Claudia de la Cruz even is. Unless you want to become her campaign manager, that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you managed to convince two thirds of the people who would’ve voted for Biden to vote for her instead, Trump would still win because half the nation voted for him and only a third voted for her.
She doesn’t have a chance. Grow up and don’t waste your vote. Way things are right now, you only get one.
Ranked Choice is a specific use of ranked ballots and it kind of sucks. You want Ranked Pairs.
Or just Approval Voting, where people check every name they like. Same ballots as now. Most votes wins. It is literally that simple and it matches optimal results. There is no good reason it’s not the default. What we’re doing now just plain sucks.
Yes, idiot child who thinks alternating caps is a counterargument, grow the fuck up.
I am eligible for the US presidency. I am equally likely to win. I am fucking nobody. So is your masturbatory, performative waste of a vote.
Don’t allow fascism to seize a country just so you can feel smug superiority. Asshole.
2000 was decided by hundreds of votes. 2020 was decided by thousands of votes. Don’t play stupid games with democracy, to risk an outright fascist doing the horrible shit he’s openly said he wants to do.
Only two candidates stand any chance of winning.
One of them tried subverting the 2020 election in at least seven distinct criminal attacks. And he’s even more of an Israel fanboy. You gain absolutely fucking nothing by pretending your no-name no-chance nobody is some kind of statement. Make statements with your mouth. Use your ballot to prevent electing a dictator.
Ah a Trump supporter! Let me know how that works for you once you get Trump elected!
they clearly said they are supporting de la cruz
Okay I mean this is marginally better, at least you’re voting, but still until some sort of change happens a vote third party is a vote thrown away
I’m not suggesting voting third party or protest voting, I personally plan on voting for whoever has the Democrat party’s backing come the general. However, I do want to ask, what do you believe is a realistic plan for gaining that change?
The people that are voting third party or not voting are doing so because they believe that’s the best option for change. Even if I disagree with that, how can we show them a better path?
If you are against both dominants in a two-party system, vote for the party more likely to win, so that the margin would become bigger, the winning party would split and the losing party would have unpredictable change.
I’m in the second world, just thinking.
In the US this seems to have already happened once, in the 50s.
“The Republican and Democratic parties, or, to be more exact, the Republican-Democratic party, represent the capitalist class in the class struggle. They are the political wings of the capitalist system and such differences as arise between them relate to spoils and not to principles.
With either of those parties in power one thing is always certain and that is that the capitalist class is in the saddle and the working class under the saddle.
Under the administration of both these parties the means of production are private property, production is carried forward for capitalist profit purely, markets are glutted and industry paralyzed, workingmen become tramps and criminals while injunctions, soldiers and riot guns are brought into action to preserve ‘law and order’ in the chaotic carnival of capitalistic anarchy.
Deny it as may the cunning capitalists who are clear-sighted enough to perceive it, or ignore it as may the torpid workers who are too blind and unthinking to see it, the struggle in which we are engaged today is a class struggle, and as the toiling millions come to see and understand it and rally to the political standard of their class, they will drive all capitalist parties
of whatever name into the same party, and the class struggle will then be so clearly revealed that the hosts of labor will find their true place in the conflict and strike the united and decisive blow that will destroy slavery and achieve their full and final emancipation.” - Eugene V. Debs
I remembered South Park
?
ironically this video is 20 years old
unexpected commentary to come from a mod.
based tho. https://www.vote.org/
With some of the rhetoric I was seeing I felt like it was my responsibility to say something.
Love u bae <3
tyyyy
Always vote, whenever you have the option.
General election, primary, whatever.
You should always make your voice heard. There’s also more important elections going on that are more directly impactful to you (i.e. local elections).
This! I’m voting in 5 different elections this year!
We had a special election to fill a vacated mayoral seat (only 10% of registered voters showed up) and then the recent primary. In May, we have a local election for city council and school board seats and also a separate run-off primary election. And then of course the general election in November.
its funny(?) how i only see posts criticising ppl for not voting/voting third options but i dont currently see anyone actually advocating for doing that
Might depend on how you sort or what instances you have blocked. I’ve seen a few personally, although not in blahaj.zone as far as I can remember.
There are multiple people advocating for it in this thread…
I’ll proceed to describe in this post the gigantic amount of political change and sweeping reforms we will achieve when we valiantly protest against the system by not voting up until we get the turnout to 10%:
Yep. We need A LOT more leftists to show up before protesting the vote is useful. As much as I hate Democrats, we’re not there yet. I’ll vote Biden, but I’ll lose sleep over voting for that disgusting ghoul. Still better than the alternative, until the alternative includes dismantling our whole entire system.
Yes! Under Trump’s dictatorship there WILL sweeping changes, just not the ones you think. I mean ending democracy in this country will be a change. But you’ll sleep well (until the gestapo comes for you) thinking “you showed them!”.
I stand with Palestine, and I’ll be voting in the US. Yes, I’m voting for Biden as the lesser of two evils, but I’m also voting for a whole lot of other really good people who are going up against some truly evil people. I’ve got people attacking my schools and libraries at the local level. Not voting to spite Biden will hurt my town a whole lot more than it would hurt Biden.
That’s what I don’t understand from the don’t vote crowd.
Okay, nobody left leaning voted. Now what?
I’d argue it’s not ultra-leftism if both options are reactionary. On the contrary, when going through such a turbulent period, to call yourself a socialist/Marxist and yet tail any anti-worker Democratic crisis cabinet is to compromise yourself just like the Mensheviks did for 8 months in 1917 when they happily took their warm seats and then didn’t do shit to improve the desperate position of the Russian workers and denounce the Russian imperialism.
So what to do instead of voting? Join the revolutionary communists to end the endless cycle of disappointment and picking lesser evil in the system that gives no real agency to 99% of the society.
While I agree with communism in theory, some of the language on the page regarding revolution is problematic IMO and is not going to gain the party any favors.
Also some of the stuff they have listed on the site is pretty hilarious:
The German Revolutions in 1918 and 1923, and the British General Strike in 1926, show us that even in the economic powerhouses of capitalism, the contradictions of capitalism cannot be fundamentally overcome. In fact, in 1968, the largest revolutionary general strike in history shook France. This was a country that had been lauded for its high living standards, and it occurred during a period of economic upswing!
Literally every example they list of “the contradictions of capitalism cannot be fundamentally overcome” is an example of a country that is still capitalist lol. (Maybe because the real life examples of communism objectively haven’t turned out that great.) So they’ve continued to overcome them. And sure you can argue a country like France has a lot of socialist programs and legislation but it’s certainly still a capitalist country.
Because to resolve them a revolutionary situation is necessary first, and then some class leadership ready to lead it towards victory. Instead the impasse or temporary fixes for social peace will just continue into years of unresolved tensions erupting every once in a while but not achieving much. I.e. when
(1) when it is impossible for the ruling classes to maintain their rule without any change; when there is a crisis, in one form or another, among the “upper classes,” a crisis in the policy of the ruling class, leading to a fissure through which the discontent and indignation of the oppressed classes burst forth. For a revolution to take place, it is usually insufficient for “the lower classes not to want” to live in the old way; it is also necessary that “the upper classes should be unable” to live in the old way; (2) when the suffering and want of the oppressed classes have grown more acute than usual; (3) when, as a consequence of the above causes, there is a considerable increase in the activity of the masses, who uncomplainingly allow themselves to be robbed in “peace time,” but, in turbulent times, are drawn both by all the circumstances of the crisis and by the “upper classes” themselves into independent historical action.
lol if you want to defend your community, join SRA instead of relying on a state that will not back down when tried, just like the French bourgeoisie used an enemy army to suppress an uprising by the French workers 150 years ago.
Lol, I do far more for my community than joining some neutered gun club, but thank you for your concern.
yet the black panthers actually taught us the value and the power of the oppressed being able to defend themselves. imagine what if they were still around for the BLM movement if it wasn’t for cointelpro.
