- cross-posted to:
- lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
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I perused the comments and didn’t see anyone mention this. The term “engineer” is regulated by every state in the US. I doubt they had Tinder in mind, but calling yourself an “engineer” without having a Professional Engineer license is illegal, at least when it comes to offering professional engineering services. It’s a protected title so that schools and bridges don’t get built by scammers–at least that was the intention. I can legally call myself an Engineer!
Just go get your license, and you should be golden lol.
can we ban web developers who call themselves “developers”?
also php programmers who call themselves anything?
Just like my
$variablesI can be anything I want. Deal with it! 🫳🎤I’m a full-stack web developer and am involved all the way through including cloud infrastructure, API development, database creation/maintenance, test automation, architecture etc.
I guess what makes a “developer” in your context different? Embedded? Kernel?
Only those who code in the same language as I am can be called developers. Everyone else is just an impostor and their technology doesn’t matter! Real programmers use my language of choice
Nah, no need for this kind of gatekeeping. Anyone who deals with js and its billions of frameworks on a daily basis deserves to be called a developer.
Agreed.
We also deserve to be called, every so often, to see how we’re doing.
Heyyy its your super duper new project manager! I hope you are feeling a-mazing because you are my a-ce on the team. Anyways i need you to do things twice as fast, because we are running low on budget after sales promised another feature without extra billing and the CEO already signed off on it. Please make this happen somehow. If this project isn’t succesfull i’ll get fired and have to sell the house. But no pressure!
Do you even know why you hate PHP?
yeah, i’ve used it and it’s absolutely trash…
but here’s an article that sums up my feelings: https://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/That article is over a decade old. A lot of these issues aren’t relevant any more or have been fixed. Some weren’t even PHP issues, for example mysql_real_escape_string is a MySQL API (https://dev.mysql.com/doc/c-api/8.0/en/mysql-real-escape-string.html).
PHP isn’t the best language, but it’s not as bad as some people claim it to be, especially if you use a good framework like Laravel.
lol, no… it sucks
trust me, if you’ve already gotten used to php, you’re smart enough to learn a better language.
really just use node if you’re going that sorta route…Nice troll
JavaScript has a lot of the same issues as PHP. It doesn’t have some of the same core library issues because it doesn’t have a good core library.
ECMA 6 has had drastic improvements over the past js…
however node is still infinitely better than php, and since javascript is inexorably a part of web development, it’s a lot more logical to use it on the backend too…i don’t mean that node is great, i mean that it’s an easy transition from php, a billion times better, and much more modern and useful… so a very natural transition…
ECMA 6 has had drastic improvements over the past js…
Sure, but it still lacks basic built-in features. For example, why do maps and sets not have sort or filter methods? In Node, why is there no built-in way to connect to a database of any sort? Why can Node.js apps only use a single time zone? Requiring libraries for everything is not ideal as the libraries vary wildly in quality and they can end up either abandoned or containing malware (which has happened several times in the Node ecosystem).
still infinitely better than php
They each have their pros and cons, depending on use case. Node.js does some things better than PHP, but the opposite is true too.
- You can build a whole PHP website without using any third-party libraries, and it’ll work on any web host that supports PHP (literally any good web host that exists today). There’s value in having that level of flexibility.
- You can build a PHP site today and it’ll mostly still be working (maybe with some minor changes) in 5 years, whereas for some of my Node.js sites I have to switch to an older version of Node just to build them. For example https://obviousspoilers.com/ has been practically untouched since 2009.
- The fact that PHP can run multiple apps in the same FPM process means that you can run thousands of sites on a single server without issues. There’s some non-Node solutions to this (like Cloudflare workers) but they’re mostly proprietary at the moment.
- There are more PHP than Node.js jobs, and far more sites use PHP. Wordpress uses PHP and powers over 40% of the web, so that means that at least 40% of all websites use PHP.
oh and, adding a library isn’t very hard
Adding a third-party library in PHP is just as easy. The
composer.jsonfile looks very similar to apackage.json.
That is literally a decade old article with basically 1 complaint that sometimes functions are strpos() and sometimes str_len(). Anything else it’s saying is “I don’t even know how to say it”. Really now? Any of your complaints have been fixed since about a decade ago, so why don’t you give it a try?
lol, no…
also this is a joke sub so stop trying to sea lion me about it.
also your “summation” of the article is pretty stupid
For me, it was this
https://www.php.net/manual/en/function.mysql-real-escape-string.php
Note that that hasn’t existed in PHP for years.
Blame MySQL for that. The PHP API just mirrors the MySQL C API of the same name. https://dev.mysql.com/doc/c-api/8.0/en/mysql-real-escape-string.html
Modern PHP doesn’t use it - any modern code uses PDO with prepared statements.
I don’t see what’s so bad in this one. Care to elaborate?
🖕
sorry, my browser doesn’t support unicode
As if webapps aren’t usurping mobile and desktop apps, anything not C# or .NET is a toy language?
c# and .net? ewww…
gimme c, c++, go, rust, ruby, python…
and umm, no dude, native apps are a lot more powerful than web apps… they are not usurped at allthere’s more of them, but there’s more scooters than motorcycles…
So if I’m using Rust to write a web app that compiles to WebAsm, what am I?
a dingo
Scooters are more efficient, get you where you need to go and cost less to maintain. Your analogy is actually pretty good in that regard.
yeah and they only get you around the neighborhood, any actual distance and a motorcycle is infinitely better…
but, it figures you’d miss that, since you’re a dumby dumbo mcpoopoo head webdevPlease refrain of using offensive words, specially if you are trying to actually communicate an idea that is by all means demeaning to other people. The community is about humour, keep that in mind ;)
Now you’re throwing ad hominem around. You don’t need to be toxic to communicate your point, web development did at one point have a lot of growing to do and I can admit that there is still plenty of progress to be made. In 2024 however, ignoring the web ecosystem as any type of developer is purely traditionalist elitism.
bruh, this is programming_humor… chill, im sure you’re a fine human being
To be fair, we do develop stuff. Nothing implies quality, so it’s not like we’re misrepresenting anything. Personally, anyone who calls themselves a software engineer and works with any web-related technology (PHP, JavaScript, etc) are the ones to be shunned.
Lol. tinder fact checks bios? Hilarious…
And this why i aim to get a PhD.
So you can get banned from Tinder for impersonating a doctor?
(I too have a PhD. I feel your pain)
A player hater’s degree? Oh hell yeah!
I just want to get a PhD so I can start my mad science career on the right foot.
What if they are actually a software engineer, with a cert? >_>;
I have worked with actual cert’d engineers on web projects, lol
with a cert
Engineering isn’t usually a cert. It’s a degree. I have a Bachelor of Engineering, majoring in Software Engineering. There’s probably a cert level qualification in software development, and frankly it’s probably just as good at producing effective software developers as an engineering degree, but it would be misleading, if you claim that only those with some particular qualification can call themselves engineers, for the qualification to be a cert.
It’s a license issued by the state. As in, “you could go to jail for practicing engineering without a license.”
(Source: was on track to become a licensed civil engineer until I decided to do software “engineering” instead.)
software “engineering”
See, the thing is, software engineering in Australia is engineering. My degree was accredited by Engineers Australia and had the same requirements as a civil or mechanical engineering degree.
Of course, it definitely is still the black sheep of the engineering world. In the vast majority of (possibly all) cases, practising as an actual engineer is no different from practising as someone with a different degree (like IT or computer science), practising with a lower-level qualification like a certificate, or practising after being entirely self-taught.
In the US, to become a licensed engineer you need to get an accredited bachelor’s degree in it, and then pass the “Fundamentals of Engineering” exam to become a state-licensed “Engineer in Training (EIT),” and then work in the field for four years, and then pass the “Principles and Practice of Engineering” exam to become a state-licensed “Professional Engineer (PE).” The degree is just the first step.
Does Australia let civil engineers certify construction plans straight out of college? (Answer: apparently – and surprisingly – some states do!)
Fwiw in my previous comment’s second paragraph when I said “practising as an engineer” that meant “practising as a [software] engineer”. I wasn’t claiming that that’s how it works for all fields of engineering, but pointing out specifically how software engineering is more similar to degrees in computer science, IT, or being self taught.
In Canada the Cert and the Degree are separate.
You typically through getting your degree also become certified, but the key is while your degree lasts forever, the Cert has to be maintained and renewed.
Cert has a lifetime and expires and you have to keep it up to date.
In Alberta for example the regulatory authority is APEGA: https://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/certifications-in-alberta/engineer/
I think even technically the license is also a separate piece of paperwork.
Degree: you completed school at some point
Cert: up to date on current practices, must be maintained, requires the degree
License: you are legally allowed to practice in the province/country and have registered. Requires degree+cert
Ah right, you’re talking certification. I was thinking certificate, because “Certificate I – Certificate IV” are very common less-than-Bachelor qualifications where I live, usually shortened to Cert I–Cert IV.
Obviously the terms “certificate” and “certification” are etymologically basically identical, but their meaning when it comes to the type of qualifications they represent are significantly different.
As long as they don’t start building tunnels under their house because they’re an ‘engineer’…
The only real software engineer anymore is Linus Torvalds, everyone else stands on the shoulders of giants.
Ever since TempleOS guy left us, it’s never been the same…
His name was Terry Davis
His name was Terry Davis.
His name was Terry Davis.
It’s still is, but that would be a bad joke on my end.
Still is? I’m afraid I have bad news for you…
He was genuinely a really good developer. It’s unfortunate that he was schizophrenic.
Are you doing that thing where you troll by saying something really stupid and wait for others to correct you?
No, I believe it’s called a joke
No, jokes have structure. It could be sarcasm but it could as easily be trolling.
I take back my chuckle
Are you?
No, you made a statement. I asked a question. My question isn’t a troll since it has a clear yes or no answer.
An answer you’ve failed to provide.
Oh boy! Do I have news for you!
Like… every engineer?
Now this is the kind of ‘news’ I’d like to see posted on hackernews just to read their techbro shit takes.
I have a CS Masters degree and it says engineer on it.
There is a difference between Computer Science and >!web development!< though.
“web development” casts a wide net.
The classic imagery of someone playing with frontpage back in the day, or screwing around with html in a text editor, sure. But those folks wouldn’t call themselves web developers (there was a phase over 20 years ago where anyone that cobbled together a geocities would declare ‘web developer’ on their resume, but I haven’t seen someone do that in ages).
However, you can get in pretty deep with code running in the browser as javascript and/or wasm. Backend gives them some nested dictionary in json or protobuf and they parse, manipulate, iterate over it, sometimes making some pretty complex visualizations. Basically a ‘web developer’ is nowadays on par with any Game or GUI application developer in terms of what they might be writing. There are a few things left out of direct reach by a browser runtime, but you have access to plenty and the backend abstractions to get something in reach of HTTP are often no easier than the thing being abstracted, it’s just reframed as ‘http’.
There really isn’t. For example web browsers can execute assembly now and a good “web developer” (I’d call them a software engineer) will use assembly where appropriate.
Did you Master Engineering Computer Scientists?
Darn skippy I did! Not much of a web designer, though.
No. Counter strike
Unironically this. Started playing on the campus network in my master’s year.
I mean, engineering is really problem solving, and not do we web developers solve problems. We may have made most of them ourselves, and new ones when we solve those, but we do solve problems.
The term engineering is not about problem-solving, especially when differentiated from development. Engineering is about deliberate understanding and decision-making, about giving it an architecture, a structure.
You can develop without any structure, solving an issue, without understanding a bigger context or picture or behavior. But that’s not engineering.
Engineering is the use of scientific knowledge to achieve specific goals.
they should also ban web developers who refer to themselves as ninjas, especially code ninjas
Bullshit. This started long ago. We’re deep in the midst of it now.
Ninjas, super-heroes, black-belt and terms like that are known gender-excluders. I’ve been through a couple of adjustment sessions for company standard job descriptions and it’s unreal how you can change the applicant mix by wording.
Ah yes, I’ve spent decades cringing when I meet a self-proclaimed or even peer-proclaimed “rockstar”, “ninja”, “guru”, “jedi”, or probably a half dozen other “cool” designations for a tech worker.
rockstar
We fixed that one: https://codewithrockstar.com/
What if you do it ironically? Like calling yourself a Code Ninja Jedi 10x Rockstar 🚀?
What if my job title says that? Who’s going to tell my employer they’re wrong.
Then again, “full stack software engineer” as a title might also well just be buzzwords.
!And yes, I know the site is satire lol.!<
I liken a software engineer to someone like an architect. Architects will spend countless hours doing research, sketching out designs, creating documentation and presentations, and maybe even building to-scale models. But one thing they don’t do is actually build their designs. The constructions workers do that. And in the case of software (be it web or otherwise), those people are the developers.
Now, there are exceptions to every rule. I acknowledge that - especially in computing - it’s possible to blur lines. But I still feel there many more developers than there are real software engineers.
But architects aren’t engineers either! We have engineers in building construction, they are called engineers.
They ensure all required calculations are done, all safety standards are adhered to, they complete detailed designs, and they sign off on a project legally so things like quotes and timelines have legal teeth.
And, unlike engineers in manufacturing whose deep-pocket corporations bought an exemption, Engineers in the A/E/C field are licensed. And if you screw up you can lose your ability to work in your field…forever.
I haven’t met an “engineer” who isn’t developing code. This is such a weird distinction. The people asking for a design are the customer, the high level design handled by the product manager, the nitty gritty is handled by the software engineers. Some businesses may make a distinction for payroll purposes but there is no prevailing standard.
Unless you know what “full stack” means.
Honestly, nobody should call themselves an engineer unless they literally drive trains for a living.
Driving a train is engineering?
In North America, the driver of a train engine is called an “engineer”, yes.
I see, TIL. That’s different from Germany, where Ingenieur is a protected term.
In the railway context an engineer was the person who worked the engine.
In German the word comes from Latin roughly meaning inventor. Presumably the general usage of the word engineer in English has the same etymology.
See I’d call that a conductor
In the US, a conductor is the one who checks tickets, makes announcements, and delegates tasks to the crew to help ensure things keep moving on time.
The locomotive engineer is the one who is “driving” the train. They run the engine and communicate with dispatch and traffic control to keep them informed where this particular train is fitting into the overall juggling act,. They also make every effort to keep things safe (watching for signals, obstructions, etc.).
I’m not 100% sure if the terminology is different outside of the Us.
(Source: My father is a 3rd generation locomotive engineer.)
See I thought a conductor was a person who grabs a live main wire while standing in water.
Funny and infromative
Infrastructure erasure in the states is so bad that people who build it for a living aren’t even considered anymore.
In many countries the term “engineer” is a protected title.
I get this is satire but people truly believe this. Web devs literally create software that runs nearly every facet of modern life.
As a non-software engineer, feels weird that they’re making this distinction.
I don’t have much to do with engines either.
I take engineer to mean: designs stuff that does some task, involving SOME kind of calculation.
Visual designer: not an engineer
Piping designer: not an engineer (although this one felt weird, that’s what the piping designer corrected me to say, so)
Chemical engineer: ya
Mechanical engineer: yeah
Software engineer: totally different flavour, but still yeah
Language is what we want it to be.
Web designers presumably still need to script things, I reckon that counts 👍
