Can I install Linux on the old systems so they work better?
This, I had multiple old machines with these kinds of specs, I put Slackware on them, dropped in an ethernet card (or two), and used them for all sorts of things, iptables firewall/router, email server, network storage, irc server, etc. It breathed new life into seriously outdated hardware.
Those german railways shouldn’t be running proprietary winblows garbageware to begin with. Shouldn’t they be running Suse?
why would you think it would run better if you don’t even know if is it possible to install it in the first place? 🤔
i like linux but this sounds as nightmarish as rewriting everything, because thats probably what you’d need to do to make it work.
Yeah, but it will feel like 16MB on a Mac. PowerPC.
Misleading title: SIEMENS Mobility is looking for said Windows 3.11 admin. NOT the German Railway
If the system can’t run perfectly on its own by now… I can teach them how to play the snakes game on it.
Deutsche Bahn is the circus and Siemens in this case the clowns.
Clown Siemens, you say?
Time for a rewrite
Rewriting a legacy system that’s been patched and amended for 30 years… Good luck with that. It seems simple on paper but it’s anything but.
Just make it from scratch?
For sure there is so much useless shit in there, that’s why nobody gets their head around it anymore.
Just make it from scratch?
And miss some tricky edge cases, which were covered in old code?
It’s a railroad. Those edge cases could be disastrous.
Better hope those systems are not network enabled
So say we all.
They’re probably still running on their own Netware network. Is there still Win16 compatible malware going around?
If it’s in a current metasploit package you can be sure that someone is scanning the IP at some point.
own Netware network
Johnny Castaway can live on at least.
Don’t forget MOPY ;)
Hey, I have a wall-mounted tablet that runs Johnny all the time. My 5-year old loves him.
Nice. Mine runs on top of the fish tank on an old netbook. What sort of tablet?
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Until it becomes obsolete, unsupportable, the crux of your operation, and/or the basis for all of your decisions 😬
(Yes, I read the article, it’s just the signs, but yes, the above still applies!)
I’d consider those various states of not working. So… Don’t fix it if it’s not broken!
Not to mention when you want to change the entire system it becomes a huge operation and problem.
COBOL has entered the chat
e: good for legacy employment though. A relative of mine is a Z80 programmer by trade, and he can effectively walk into a job because the talent pool is so small now. Granted - the wages are never great but never poor, and the role is maintenance and troubleshooting rather than being on the leading edge of development - but it’s a job for life.
Every time I hear about COBOL I feel like I should try to learn it as a backup plan…
You have to unlearn everything you know to learn it, go look its bad.
Let COBOL die, it’s terrible.
In what way is it terrible?
It wasn’t for me, too wordy and felt more like something for accounting/corporate than a programmer. I was offered a good-paying job programming COBOL out of college but turned it down because I didn’t want to spend my life with it. But that’s just me.
Your feelings regarding the language being designed for use by accountants/corporate are completely correct. COBOL was originally designed to be very verbose for this exact reason (i.e. to make COBOL programs accessible/readable for business folk).
I’m a programmer but personally I like the verbosity of COBOL. I like self-documenting code. The code I write in other languages often ends up being pretty wordy too. Certainly there can be a long debate about how verbose programs should be.
I wouldn’t say that COBOL is terrible and deserves to die for this design decision though, especially when it outperforms other languages in the places that really matter (i.e. doing business transactions quickly and accurately).
For what it’s worth, it’s possible to make COBOL less verbose. Standard COBOL syntax is still getting updated (iirc the last standard COBOL update was in 2023). These updates have often made keywords that were otherwise mandatory before optional. If you add COBOL dialects to the mix you can get code which is very similar to other languages depending on which dialect you choose.
If it works, why would we want to go through the trouble of switching to another language that will also eventually be regarded as needing to be retired? There’s decades of debugging and improvement done on their system, start over with a new system and all that work needs to be done again but with a programming language that’s probably much more complex and that leaves the door open to more mistakes…
I’m in two minds about that. One the one hand, yes, of course - as all the original COBOL folks die off, the skills will be even rarer and thus worth more.
On the other hand, if we keep propping up old shit, the businesses will keep relying on it and it’ll be even more painful when they do eventually get forced to migrate off it.
On the other other hand, we know it works, and we don’t want to migrate everything into a series of Electron apps just because that’s popular at the moment.
Part of the problem is the cost of moving off it. Some companies simply can’t pay what that would cost, and that’s before you consider the risk.
Tough spot to be in.
🥲
Is it broke if no one is able to fix it?
The reason for it to run on such an ancient device is because nobody wants to touch the scripts running on these devices.
A lot of these systems are also always on.
Used to work at an airport that had a similar issue, turning some of these systems off simply isn’t possible. So you end up having to run the replacement system simultaneously with the old system for a few days. Can’t simply take it off line for a day.
Running two systems simultaneously for a couple of days, that’s a huge problem, not solvable
It’s an expensive problem, especially if it’s a system that’s being used all across the airport by regular staff.
You need to train thousands of employees to use the new software, you need to have one person using the old software as a backup, while the other uses the new software, often while surrounded by hundreds of often angry customers.
And if something goes wrong, which it invaribly does (even if it’s user error or someone snagging a cable), shit can get very expensive. Small delays, add up to larger delays, and cascade through the entire system. Delayed flights, tens of thousands of euros in costs, hotels for thousands of passengers, missed flights, missed meetings, damages, lawsuits, penalties for missed landing/take-off slots, missed time windows for certain cities which don’t allow flights after a certain time, etc. And often you discover legacy stuff while you’re upgrading that needs fixing, stuff that no one knows how to replace anymore or is physically hard to access.
Sometimes it is genuinely better to leave it. COBOL is 60 years old. There’s still plenty of stuff running on it, exactly because it’s often too expensive and too risky to replace.
Too critical to be upgraded is something I wish I’d never hear or see again in my professional career.
ha, whats the failover look like???
Manual and boot a machine with the same IP somewhere else. Very robust
Oh, everyone who ever travels by train in Europe will tell you that the German infrastructure is very much broken. You’re lucky if your delay is less than a day travelling through Germany.
That’s another part of the infrastructure, though: We just don’t have enough rail as well as backup rolling stock.
And as the federation finally decided to spend some money it’s going to get worse in the next decade or so due to outages due to new constructions being linked up to the old stuff.
As to the age of the infrastructure – I mean it’s the railway. If a rarely-used branch line still uses mechanical interlocks and there’s no need to upgrade the capacity then the line is going to continue using infrastructure build in the times of the Kaiser. It’s not like those systems are unsafe, it just might be the case that unlike in the days of ole those posts with a gazillion levers aren’t manned all the time so you’ll see an operator drive to it with a car while the train is on its way. Which really isn’t that much of a deal when the branch line goes to a, what, quarry maybe sending out a train every two months or so. Certainly better than to demolish the line and use trucks instead.
Afaik Deutsche Bahn loses 5 mil a day: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/oct/14/its-the-same-daily-misery-germanys-terrible-trains-are-no-joke-for-a-nation-built-on-efficiency
Germany doesn’t really seem like a very efficient country, they still use fax for things and every person has to manage like 10,000 different insurances for everything. Seems like an old (and inaccurate) ww2 trope.
It’s mostly a misunderstanding of what is valued in German society. The common trope is that German society covets precision. This is not the case. German society covets unwavering precision in the adherence to norms. To the point where innovation is akin to revolution in the negative sense, and pigheadedness in procedure is considered a workplace virtue. In the mean time nothing gets done. Source: expat in Germany.
Source: expat in Germany.
Is this the same as a migrant?
No, the way it’s often used is closer to “posh guest worker”.
Expatriate, as in living elsewhere. It is a sort of migrant I guess, of the nonpermanent kind, generally speaking.
Expat moved there non-permanently
Immigrant moved there permanentlyThough if I ever somehow became an expat, I wouldn’t use the word because of how people associate it.
No it’s just about moneymaking and education level. If you’re a foreigner and highly educated and get a good paying job like IT consultant or doctor, you’re an expat. If you’re low educated and get a low paying job like construction or factory or no job, you’re a migrant. One is liked more than the other, hence the difference they make. The first doesn’t speak local language, but does speak English, and few people care. The second doesn’t speak local language and no English and is disliked for it.How long you stay is not very relevant. AfD doesn’t hare expats as much as other migrants, for example…
What you call an expat is a temporary immigrant. “Expats” fill immigration forms in their country of migration, not expatriation forms. Politicians pass laws that govern immigration, not expatriation.
That word is meant to differentiate rich (and white, often) workers from the poor, because “immigrant” has a negative connotation. That’s why I take issue with it.
The truth is, the poor might be temporary migrants too (cf Pakistanis in Dubai). The media still uses the word migrants for those. We don’t know if they’re “expats” or not, we just assume because they’re not rich or white enough.
Quick disclaimer here: I’m not saying you are racist for using the word. I just wanted to explain why I react so strongly when I hear it.
Yes, as long as they’re also white and middle/upper class!
I have no doubt their bureaucrats perform world-class efficiency in their handing out, filling in, faxing and archiving a sophisticated system of paper forms.
I guess it’s the trap of getting complacent and stopping modernizing as soon as you’ve convinced yourself you have the best system in the world.
It’s more that the bureaucracy is so complex and fragmented that it’s incredibly hard to digitalize. Lots of small fiefdoms that are entitled to make IT purchasing decisions themselves means paper is the only universal interchange format. In addition there is an unwillingness to change how things have always been done, or to simplify procedures. So there you have it: The German bureaucracy is too fat to move.
I work for german government agencies from time to time and they are working on it… It’s just really slow because there is so much of it, and due to organizational overhead. Also, there is not a single push for the entirety of Germany, but some things everyone does for themselves.
As an outside observation, Germans seem to make things better than they need to be in a detrimental way. For example, we redid one of our bathroom showers using the Schluter Kerdi waterpoofing system. They have very specific instructions on how to space the screws, how to seal the screws, how to seal the edges, how to mix the thinset, and probably some other things I can’t remember off the top of my head. They put it through a battery of tests, including going under 100’ of water. Who needs that? Don’t worry about it.
This stuff replaces cement board, which isn’t strictly waterproof, at least not on its own. It’s also significantly more expensive.
I do think it’s worthwhile for a home DIYer to get. The instructions are clear and it’s less likely you’ll screw something up that could result in disaster. That said, this thing is just waiting for a Japanese company to come along and make something 90% as good for 50% of the price. That’s basically what happened in the German vs Japanese car market, and there’s already some products on this market like that.
An old mechanic friend of mine used to say “German cars are over-engineered and under-designed”, lol.
Having worked on every brand of car out there, his description, and your explanation make a lot of sense together.
I’ve never seen such a clear and concise comparison of German/Japanese manufacturing, you really nailed it.
Both approaches have their place, the key is to know when to apply them.
Well I live in germany and therefore use the train network on short and long distance frequently and while it is unreliable, “a day” of delay is something I have never experienced.
Most of the delayed trains are late by less than one hour (still atrocious, but not a day’s worth by any means).
I actually experienced only once a situation where we were given the choice of a hotel or a continuation of our travels by taxi (which we chose) because the train we were in was late one hour or something and the other (last for the day) train could not wait.Well, it’s based on experiences travelling through Germany proper - for example Denmark to France or Italy, including transfers. Often the delay will just be a couple of hours, but then you miss your transfer and you’re screwed.
Also if you’re on your way to Switzerland the Swiss have no patience for disruptions in their services, so if a train is delayed coming from Germany they’re likely to just not accept it into the country at all.
I have also heard from people who were told to spend the night in the train, which DB just parked in the outskirts of the city for the night. That way they could offer passengers a place to sleep in the cheapest possible ways. Pregnant women or families with young children were asked to check in to hotels.
German re-unification cost trillions. It’s entirely unsurprising.
We’re maintaining and developing OpenVMS OS, and both we and our customers need Cobol, Fortran, and other half-dead languages coders.
Many large companies maintain their old systems and use them for production or data processing purposes. Sometimes it’s too expensive to migrate off, but im many cases “it just works”And in many cases if it gets replaced it’s for a system that looks fancier but actually has more problems than the original… See Phoenix for the Canadian government employees pay.
I’m a COBOL developer. For old COBOL systems it’s not just a case of it being expensive to “migrate away”, it’s extremely risky and for no significant benefit.
Businesses have essentially two options, modernize what they already have, or tear everything apart and start from scratch. COBOL programs don’t “just work”, they’re good at what they need to do (business transactions). Therefore, there isn’t a significant need to rewrite everything, especially when it’s possible to modernize and reuse existing business logic contained within COBOL programs. For example, COBOL programs aren’t tied to old hardware, you can run your COBOL applications on the cloud instead. This is much safer and cheaper than rewriting everything.
I work primarily in a Long Tail language (languages don’t die, but they have a long tail where usage slowly creeps away). I tell the business that we could ultimately solve all the problems with the platform except for one: finding new programmers to hire for it. That’s what will ultimately force us to migrate. Doesn’t have anything to do with cost or ability to take on new features or handle new ways of doing things.
When it comes to COBOL developers, there are a lot of developers retiring but there are also a lot of programmers being trained in COBOL every year. It’s for this reason that the average age of COBOL developers has stayed roughly the same for the past 2 decades despite retirements. But that said the total number of COBOL developers is decreasing.
It is certainly an issue. Not many young programmers want to learn COBOL. COBOL isn’t taught in many educational institutions. There are very few online resources that programmers can use to self-teach COBOL. More often than not people are trained in COBOL by their employer. I didn’t know how to program in COBOL until I started at my current company (and even then I stumbled into this position accidentally because I wasn’t aware that junior developer jobs in COBOL existed when I graduated university).
It’s a shame.
I feel this way about mainframes sometimes too, I had a class in mainframes but we weren’t really taught about job options or where they still fit in the industry.
You mean I can use my decades of Fortran knowledge somewhere?! If I could get a wfh position in about 3 years, that’d be awesome.
If you actually do have decades of fortran experience, work for NOAA. Their weather models are mostly fortran and they need engineers. Specifically the NOAA EPIC contract that i worked on previously definitely needs people knowledgeable in fortran and was 100% work from home.
both we and our customers need Cobol, Fortran, and other half-dead languages coders
Visual Basic? (fingers crossed)
Oh, I’m sorry man. I don’t know everything, I’m working there less than a year, but I only heard of VB a couple of times. In order of popularity it’s like: C, C++, Java, then everything else
Such things make me angry. LoL
It can be viewed as a success. A bridge or building that only lasts five years wouldn’t be considered successful, especially if it took monumental effort to make it in the first place. For some reason, we don’t value that in software.
I wrote a Classic ASP app in 1999 that placed a web UI atop a mainframe application that dated to the late '70s and allowed easy navigation of really enormous data structures. I learned last year that it’s still in use at that company; amazing not just because my code is still around but because that fucking mainframe code is still running.
Isn’t pretty much all airport scheduling based off software from the 80s or something?
Probably! APOLLO and SABRE and stuff look ancient.
Why change what isn’t broken, right?
I’ve worked in that area. It was broken back in the 90s and I doubt the crusty old parts of the system have gotten any better. I was tasked with writing a more modern wrapper for part of the legacy system, and when I asked for documentation I was told they had literally nothing to give me.
I was just an intern at the time so maybe someone with more clout could have gotten sometime to dig in a forgotten closet for old technical docs, but it still strikes me as a very bad sign when technical docs for a system every agent uses all day every day aren’t immediately available on the company’s intranet.
That’s the thing though, it is.
I’ve seen those postings and some executive is living in dreamland thinking they can hire someone to do that for $25/hr.
My bosses tried to ask me if I knew anyone the could hire for a full time position at a hospital. I ask for more details and eventually they relent because they aren’t having any luck on indeed/craigslist/temp recruiter.
It’s a 24 hour on call position for ‘up to’ $55,000 to be the sole IT staff for a 100 bed hospital in upstate NY.
I literally laughed at them, but they seem to insist they are gonna find someone to take the job.
I actually think the job isn’t even legal as described.
Fucking delusional pricks.
With those requirements I would expect $500k with 6 weeks paid leave. What a bunch of clowns.
Hahahaha, what a joke.
Sorry, not interested in 24hr on call until they start talking $100k+. That’s asking a lot of someone.
Sounds like they need multiple staff, actually. You can’t do on-call without having a rotation. What happens if Bob gets hit by a bus? This tells me all I need to know about them. Typical SMB “leadership”, they lack any concept of managing systems - be it IT, finance, mechanical, whatever. All systems have their management models.
Remote? Do you connect yourself over telnet or what?
SSH to a KVMoIP or IPMI?
BMC is doubtful, other sources indicate that the hardware is from 1996, so it’s not just old software. So I’ll guess a KVMoIP device is bolted on (probably a relay on the power input, VGA, USB for keyboard and ‘floppy’ (Win3.11 was well before USB, but the hardware from 96 may have USB and the BIOS would likely make it viable for a DOS to use it).
Ooh, someone is about to make BANK!
Why would someone make a lot of money from this?
Supply and demand. The people that have a lot of experience with those systems are retired or should be retiring soon.
Supply is pretty low. So they can demand higher pay.
DB’s demand is pretty strong. If those systems go down, trains don’t run, and that costs them millions.
It’s cheaper to pay someone a lot of money vs having their systems fail.
Some retired old fart who can’t be bothered to learn fancy-schmancy Web 2.0. Rock on like it’s '93
Or a middle-aged fart who did learn new stuff but remembers the old stuff too
Web 2.0 was a mistake.
They’re gonna party like it’s 1989
Celebrating Ceaușescu’s death? /j
Why use MS-DOS? Why don’t we just re-write it in Rust?
The fact they’re still running on dos is a clue that either they can’t figure out how to upgrade or they don’t want to upgrade or they simply won’t allocate the budget to upgrade.
It generally boils down to money. Shops like that are toxic. They somehow don’t have the budget to keep their business afloat, means you’re not getting a raise.
If you take this job, you’re obsolete. Getting the next job will be tough. You’re interview at the next potential role what did you do at your current role? I ran dos on 30 year old machines. Interviewer: I’m sorry, but we need someone with experience in Windows ME.
You think the existing system is documented?
It’s going to be a mess of things written in 6 different languages, magic numbers all over the place. Unit tests? Predates all that. Even if you tried, the first you’ll know about an error is when you turn the news on and there’s two trains upside down and on fire.
It is definitely the exact opposite of this. Even though I understand why you would think this.
The thing with systems like these is they are mission critical, which is usually defined as failure = loss of life or significant monetary loss (like, tens of millions of dollars).
Mission critical software is not unit tested at all. It is proven. What you do is you take the code line by line, and you prove what each line does, how it does it, and you document each possible outcome.
Mission critical software is ridiculously expensive to develop for this exact reason. And upgrading to deploy on different systems means you’ll be running things in a new environment, which introduces a ton of unknown factors. What happens, on a line by line basis, when you run this code on a faster processor? Does this chip process the commands in a slightly different order because they use a slightly different algorithm? You don’t know until you take the new hardware, the new software, and the code, then go through the lengthy process of proving it again, until you can document that you’ve proven that this will not result in any unusual train behavior.
We should just re-implement DOS in Rust and call it RS-DOS.
DROS (DISC and Rust based Operating System)
10/10 would install Doom on it.
Play doom with physical rails and trains
Use railroad switches as logic gates and trains as binary information?
Tbh I think people would understand why it had to be done.
That’s really fucking cool, if you ask me.
Sign me up if you’re paying $300k+
lmao, 60k eur tops. wages in Germany suck ass, earning at least something is possible if you are running independent consulting or climbing corporate ladder, having some unique expertise or going extra mile as an employee is pretty much pointless.
How much of that 60k is left after taxes? Is it enough to live on, or buy a home, or buy a home and support a family, or none of the above?
35 to 40k (if your spouse is choosing tax class with a higher rate) after taxes or around so, depends on many factors - German tax code is complicated.
Is it enough to live on
Generally - barely above “paycheck to paycheck” level, but highly depends on location. In Munich you’ll be fucked with this type of salary.
or buy a home
lmao no. Houses are mainly for older and retired people or rich, vast majority of active workforce are apartment renters, more fortunate ones were able to save/get help from relatives for mortgage. Total home ownership rate in Germany is 46.7%, lowest of all OECD countries - and that’s including older people who got their homes during better economic times. Neat trick about Germany is that you have to have both stable job at big company and a lot of cash on your hands to cop a mortgage, since 20% downpayment + taxes/fees and other bullshit that run at around 10% of the total price make good barrier.
buy a home and support a family
Not really, adults in the household have to work, 60k is not ‘breadwinner’ type of salary at all. In general, tech workers aren’t special in Germany, if not for US companies branches they’d be earning the same as everyone else and in many industries (like transportation), where pressure from international market is not present that much, they still do.
It was good while it lasted, but Germany is heading into some pretty interesting times in general, younger population is absolutely fucked.
Assuming single with no kids, you’d get:
Gross 60.000,00 €
Net 37.209,78 €
Taxes 11.262,97 € (includes 929,97 € church-tax that you can get rid off by leaving your church)
Pension insurance 5.580,00 €
Unemployment insurance 780,00 €
Health insurance 4.847,85 €
Long-term care insurance 1.249,37 €
Those are all the compulsory insurances.
Having a partner in marriage who earns less than you and / or children will increase your net.
For the average German in your average City that’s somewhere between just short of wealthy and wealthy. There are poorly paid IT specialists who earn gross what you would take home net. It’s definitely enough that you can live quite good if your significant other works too and more than enough to raise a family. The median household income in Germany is 42k gross.
Also remember this is only the employee side of what you cost your employer, because they’ll have to double up your insurances, so you would cost them 75k a year.
Depends extremely on where you live. In Bremen you will be fine, in Schwerin you will be comparably wealthy, in Munich you might have to start collecting bottles on the street for some extra money.
60k is about 30-35k after taxes and mandatory insurances, depending on your tax class (Single, Main earner in a marriage, …). Your questions: Yes if you’re not in a particular expensive town., No, unless you’ve got huge savings or an inheritance. Depends on what you want for your family - you might get by well if you’re living in a LCOL area, otherwise… Not so much.
Migrating to FreeDOS might be feasible for them.
At least it’s not windows 8.
