cross-posted from: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/7477620
Transitive defederation – defederating from instances that federate with Threads as well as defederating from Threads – isn’t likely to be an all-or-nothing thing in the free fediverses. Tradeoffs are different for different people and instances. This is one of the strengths of the fediverse, so however much transitive defederation there winds up being, I see it as overall as a positive thing – although also messy and complicated.
The recommendation here is for instances to consider #TransitiveDefederation: discuss, and decide what to do. I’ve also got some thoughts on how to have the discussion – and the strategic aspects.
(Part 7 of Strategies for the free fediverses )
We should defederate with any server that has less than 7 degrees of separation with Meta. We can call it the Kevin Bacon rule.
And complement the FediBlock tag with FediBacon! It’s got success written all over it!
I just went ahead and defederated with my own brain. This way I never have to worry about Meta sludge ruining my life by existing on my screen.
I can understand defederating from Threads, but transitive defederation is bordering on insanity.
This will do nothing but exert peer pressure onto instances that wish to remain impartial. Transitive defederation will play right into Meta’s hands by fragmenting the Fediverse further.
“You’re either with us or you’re against us”
— level-headed, fair-acting groups of people throughout history
Only a sith deals in absolutes.
is transitive defederation for gab bordering on insanity
While my primary masto is a single user instance, basically anywhere else I exist on the fedi is a subset of infosec dot *.
Those instances are all run by someone who a) is cool with spinning up a whole bunch of instances, b) is willing to risk the costs, and c) is excellent at delineating policy. There’s a “no fucking threads full stop” instance, and a “no threads by default, but user can flip switch” instance, for example.
That’s a method of operation that works from my pov but doesn’t suit everyone’s needs. Personally, I want nothing to do with threads but am more able to express my anti corp tendencies than I was in my twenties, and I’m more willing to accept that “it’s just bandwidth, find the instance that meets your needs.”
My needs involve no threads at all, but I can accomplish that with a very small amount of effort given. My circles.
no thanks.
I don’t know. Calling Meta a nonexistent problem sounds naive to me. Sure, something “hasn’t happened (yet)”. Except, it’s Meta … plenty has happened already. How many times are we going to allow selves to be fooled?
Sure, something “hasn’t happened (yet)”.
Pretty much the definition of a nonexistent problem.
Sorry. But that’s just shallow word games, not to mention cherry picking my words.
The thing that has “happened” is that a mega corp with a track record has stated and acted on intentions to directly interact with the fediverse.
Calling that a nonexistent problem is like saying the sun doesn’t exist at night time.
It’s word games being used to point to something real. A longer way of saying “let’s not solve a non-existent problem” is “There is uncertainty in our understanding and predictions, so we should not treat predicted future problems the same as current observed problems”.
Using the phrase “non-existent problem” just points to this wisdom by reminding the person that the future is not a real thing but rather a mental image, ie it doesn’t exist yet, and may never exist the way we predict it.
It’s similar to “cross that bridge when we come to it” referring to not focusing efforts on future problems when there are plenty of present problems to solve.
im not going to get into this, again, as im sick of asking the same thing and no one ever having a valid response so ill just state it.
theres no technical reason to think meta can overtake the ap protocol and substantially alter it in any appreciable way. that they have a federating server in threads is not some crazy threat unless your own shit becomes dependent on that federation. if it does, its on the instance owner not threads.
as it is, there is zero reason to not federate with threads other than substantial resource use (flooding) and righteous indignation.
i run a public instance, and as soon as threads interferes with it, i will nip that shit in the bud. until then, i plan on providing an offramp for those trapped in metas walled garden.
I don’t federate with any instance that openly houses hate groups. Threads houses hate groups.
There’s a reason for you.
It may not be enough of a reason for you, but that’s a whole different thing to there being “zero reason not to federate”
you got the righteous indignation part down pat.
its work to block instances. im not going to operate like that. im treating AP like email. i dont block facebooks SMTP, i dont block Nestle email… im not going to block their AP.
i am providing assistance to humans wanting to leave the walled garden. you are not capable of that, apparently.
but you do you. thats what its all about.
edit: btw none of this is technical in nature. its just political. i stand by the fact there is no technical reason to not federate.
The fact that you equate vulnerable communities blocking instances that house hate movements that target them with righteous indignation is genuinely scary…
What can a hate group do when Meta’s federated to an instance with vulnerable people in it, that they can’t do when Meta’s not federated with that instance?
I’m not sure I understand your issue with the term here. “Righteous indignation” word for word means “indignation that’s justified”, so I don’t want to jump to conclusions, and I’m thinking I may be having yet another of my English second language speaker moments.
Indignation implies that it’s about being offended or upset.
The specific term you used usually carries an implication of pettiness, and of making a big deal out of nothing. The “righteous” part is normally meant in an ironic or sarcastic way.
righteous indignation
This is minimising a problem you’d rather not think about or address “too much”. For many it’s a real problem, both morally or in the abstract, and practically.
Here’s a good article outlining an “anti-threads” position (https://erinkissane.com/untangling-threads) that may answer both the “righteous indignation” point and some of your “technical” points too.
All of which gets to arguing that, yes, as my initial reply to you stated, there are “existent” problems and preemptively acting can make sense.
You want to be an off-ramp, and have your finger on the defed button … that’s cool (genuinely)! But dismissing urgency as illogical or something is, I think, out of line.
Your arguments strike me as either dismissive (“zero reason … righteous indignation”), straw man (“resource use”, “overtake the ap protocol”) or excuses, frankly (“It’s work to block instances” … threads is like one instance).
- Avoiding whatever unmoderated garbage threads is like to have (meta has a long track record here) or already has makes a lot of sense.
- Avoiding assisting their business model makes sense.
- Avoiding any remote appearance that a giant shitty company, after all of the mega-corp-social shit can still just waltz into a new (and probably fragile) open/free garden without the risk of being shuttered out unless they do everything possible to indicate that they’re trying to “be good” this time … makes sense.
- Not waiting to find out what “technical” shit they may end up pulling down the line … makes sense — eg, how sure are you that flow of users between the fedi and Threads will be net positive for the fedi … how do you know Threads won’t actually end up sucking up users from the fedi? How convinced are you that they won’t bend the de facto standard usage of the protocol (where mastodon is already doing this) to their own ends and then reform what the “big mainstream” idea of the fediverse actually means to most people?
- Wanting to send a message that the fedi is done with massive corps and their evil shit … makes sense.
- But, also, IMO … wanting to provide an off-ramp for Threads users also makes sense … I’m glad to hear your intentions on this.
With ActivityPub, Meta is playing on our turf. They don’t have home field advantage here. ActivityPub isn’t a protocol that they control.
I mean, for now.
Mastodon, through its dominance is already shaping what the protocol is and isn’t. For instance, the Server to Client API that mastodon runs is of its own making and design and just about every microblogging app relies on it such that any other platform tries to mimic it. It’s become a de facto standard. Should mastodon change their API, many other platforms will feel compelled to follow suit. There are now voices calling for it to be standardised. BUT … talk to people working on the actual protocol and they’ll say they hate this because the protocol already has a standard for this and it should be used instead … and app developers will basically say “well, everyone is using the mastodon API already … why would I use this thing no one knows about”.
Threads/Meta can do exactly the same thing over time. And once they have control over how some parts of the fediverse operate, which they will have by having “the standard” and the dominance of users to force people to comply … then they can influence what is and isn’t in the standard to suit their purposes (think surveillance and ads) and even add things that only work on Threads, which of course will presumably attract more users (as Threads is already huge).
More abstractly … “our turf” here isn’t the protocol. The protocol is over-emphasised as some magic element that makes everything here work. It’s just a tool. The stuff that actually makes the fediverse work are all of the software platforms, such as Lemmy and Mastodon, that provide the actual social media we use. And they just use the protocol. It’s the quality and design choices of these platforms that are “our turf”, and these depend very much on the developers and the users and their motivations/desires. Threads is big enough that it can distort the network of motivations. An example … There’s a mastodon mobile app (Mammoth) that is the only one to implement a recommendation/algorithmic feed. One of their key motivations (they’ve stated so publicly) is to be ready for when Threads joins the fediverse so that their app can attract Threads users. They also run their own mastodon instance, which I can only presume they’d be happy to modify with their own features.
Another way they can exert influence is through altering the way moderation affects the fediverse. Moderating what comes through from Threads is likely to be onerous. It alone will be a reason for some instances defederating. But some instances will want to stay connected to the large userbase of Threads, and will tolerate some of the garbage coming through. The net effect will be to splinter the fediverse between those that can’t and those that can tolerate a lower average quality of user/content. Such a hard splintering wouldn’t occur if all of those users were spread out amongst more instances instead of coming from a single source/instance whose size alone attracts disproportionate interest and gravity (to the point that this discussion happens again and again).
I mean, this would mean that the most rabidly anti-federation instances would wall themselves off from instances that are okay with giving Meta a chance, so it would reduce the drama somewhat. I wouldn’t mind no longer seeing all the endless doomsaying.
I’ll be honest, if this gets adopted I’m out.
Most of these ideas are ridiculous in how they desperately build up windmills to handle a surplus of lances among some fediverse users, but this genuinely applies the very thing you - completely out of nowhere - assume Meta would do to what you’re doing: EEE.
You’re trying to strong-arm users of AP into your modified version usage guidelines for it entirely to suffocate anyone disagreeing.
That’s despicable, even as just an idea.
how is strong arm
Are you here to have a discussion? Or just to harass people?
how is harassment
Yeah, strong arming instances to do something or another based on a personal preference I thought was meta’s job, not the fediverses.
The entire point is that each instance should decide for themselves. If they want to defederate with me because I haven’t made up my mind yet, then so long I guess, to me that says more about them then it does Meta.
Indeed, the entire point is that instances should decide for themselves – I say it multiple times in the article and I say it in the excerpt. If they think that you federating with Meta puts them at risk, then they should defederate. And yes, it says more about the instances making the decisions than it does about Meta – Meta’s hosting hate groups and white supremacists whether or not people defederate or transitively defederate.
Aren’t you from that instance that threw a tantrum recently and threatened to defed the programming instance because of a personal beef between the admins that was quickly resolved and only resulted in creating a bunch of needless drama?
The above OP is right, it really says more about the servers advocating these things than Meta. Stop wallowing in the mud and just be better than them. Lead by example, not whatever this petty squabble is.
Thanks for getting what I was saying.
I’m giving meta a 3 strike rule for my instance. Yes, I will probably eventually defederate with them - but I’m not going to immediately do it now. Yes, they’re a horrible company, horrible ethics, and I hate them. However, I’m not going to be one who just blocks them prematurely, they can prove themselves why they’re terrible to me. I’ll probably get overwhelmed with moderating and just cut it then.
Thank you for fighting the good fight. That’s the proper way to do it.
because refusing to talk to instance is strong arming
Splitting the fediverse in half just to get back at Meta is an awful idea.
it’s not about getting back at meta. it’s about protecting communities.
Meta disgusts me but i cant lie and say the opportunity that my family may without me pushing much may join the fediverse on threads sounds much nicer then the status quo.
I am all for protecting the fediverse from metas ideas so i do support defediration.
With this transistive tool what happens if i am on my own instance, defederated from meta but i dont the transition and federate with a community that is federated with meta.
Could i see threads from my instance trough the federated one?
Is my own instance safe from meta?
Will transistive defederation mean others will automatically defederate with my instance because i federate with an instance that is federated with threads?
Man just gotta respond to one thing here. I’m not for protecting anyone from any ideas. Better to have an immune system than a sterile environment that requires isolation to maintain.
does ideas include fascism
We really need better visualization tools for who is federated with what. Meta is just one large / recognizable company to pop into the fediverse. Others will move in over time, and if instances choose to do something like this (defed from any instance that didn’t also defed), then it’s going to be a complete mess trying to figure out who is federated with what. Those smaller defederated instances will need to be extra clear about who they are federated with and why, otherwise people will avoid them.
I personally think this is a bad choice to make, but instances are free to do as they please.
I envision brands creating their own instances that federate with Meta. Then you can get an exclusive Gucci account for some absurd amount of money and use it to flex on the plebs.
It’ll potentially just end up like emails (which are also federated, after all), where Gucci employees get an @gucci.com email address and an @gucci.com ActivityPub handle.
It might also help with the whole verification mess.
officialgucci@example.comlooks fakemain@gucci.comis clearly legitimate, as is anything else a company might want to do (ex.ronald@mcdonalds.com)
Mmm yes, a broken platform dealing in inane absolutes. Take me back to reddit why don’t you?
I’m not so sure that this sort of divisive policy is healthy for the Fediverse. ActivityPub is meant to connect communities, not split them apart. I feel like this is just going to cause even more fragmentation at a time when ActivityPub can really be showing off its capabilities.
I can’t imagine how this wouldn’t dissuade further adoption by other communities.
Activitypub is deliberately designed to allow disconnection as and when needed. Splitting apart is entirely the point of having defederation.
I do not understand this idea that the fediverse was always meant to be some kumbayah peace & love positive vibes only space and that utilising defederation is going to wound its delicate soul.
No. Federation is a system with teeth; if we defang it for the sake of being nice to everyone then it won’t be able to achieve its promise of freedom from corporate overlords. Independence and self determination is the point, not being chill and cool and like, totally copacetic with all mankind, man.
Right, but what this will end up doing is effectively creating two distinct Fediverses; one with Meta and all the users, and one that will sequester themselves off to an even smaller corner of the internet than before. That’s not a healthy outcome. And if all the EEE(E?) rants and ravings people have been posting lately are to be believed, that’ll only make these smaller communities even less able to resist Meta’s influence.
You said:
ActivityPub is meant to connect communities, not split them apart.
This is just blatantly wrong. I was adressing this and only this.
I don’t know if I agree with transitive defederation, I did not take a position on it, and I don’t know why you’re trying to argue it with me except that you know this kumbayah crap isn’t a position you can argue.
I just know BS when I smell it, and I’m sick of smelling this particular kind.
Okay, but that’s a disingenuous argument to be making. Yes, AP is designed with the options to block instances, but that’s not the core function it’s built around. That’s a failsafe, not the selling feature that would make communities adopt it. Communities can already exist without federating with other platforms: by running their own, non-AP platform in the first place. The developers of AP didn’t say “I want to make a protocol built around blocking connections”.
Nobody buys a car for its brakes, but you still need to have them for safety purposes. Defederation is pumping said brakes. It’s a necessary feature, but not the main point of the car.
A car without brakes is a death trap. You use brakes exactly in proportion to how much you use the accelerator. Your analogy is garbage. It’s like saying “you have a house for the space inside, not for the roof overhead”. It’s nonsensical.
Federation and defederation are two sides of the same coin. The one is the shadow of the other. Interpersonal boundaries are necessary for healthy relationships IRL, and they mainly come into play when telling people no, not when telling them yes. AP was absolutely designed with disconnection in mind. We know that because it’s a core function. If you want to tell me otherwise then you need to give me a quote, and then explain to me why I should care what the designer thinks anyway.
Pretending federation is about connection and not disconnection is disingenuous. It’s meaningless fluff that as far as I can tell is perfectly suited to convincing people to let their guard down, and may well have been designed for that purpose.
explain to me why I should care what the designer thinks anyway
Because they’re the ones who ultimately control the future of the AP protocol. How it behaves today may not be how it behaves tomorrow. If their intent was to create communities that are isolated islands on the internet, they would’ve just made a new phpBB. So understanding their design philosophy is going to be important when it comes to running a community on that protocol.
What matters is what can be done with the protocol. Defederation is baked in at this point, and if it goes off the rails we can just fork it.
And I can see you don’t have anything to back up your claim that federation is somehow an unimportant side feature of federation.
I have no idea why people are downvoting you but I agree fully.
A lot of folks here dont have much experience with social situations and life in general and it shows.
Studies show that big corporations behave like psychoaths. Lack of remorse, lack of empathy, hostile demeanor and impulsiveness.
Would you invite someone like this to your home and expect everything to be all right afterwards?
In the case of meta its also a psychopath with enough money and lawyers that they could murder you in cold blood and wouldn’t even go to jail so to speak.
Why would we federate with them just to defederate when (not if) they start pushing their agenda through? Ads, one way federation etc.
If its capability is connecting with corporations, I think its best for the long term health to not show that.
I feel like this was part of the Meta plan from the start. They know what they’re doing.
It was part of Meta’s plan for us to behave badly?
<shoots myself in the foot> Look what Meta made me do!
I could see it as being part of Meta’s plan to make the Fediverse fracture itself to make it easier to manipulate.
Definitely. My point is that it’s our own behavior that’s the link the chain, meaning we have an opportunity to not do it.
Eh, nah, not as a preemptive thing. If threads users become a problem, then transitive defed is a good option. Otherwise it just makes the whole thing more annoying than it’s worth.
Nonsense
