I’ve often assumed Harris didn’t want to insult her boss by going against him, because I got the impression she was planning to give Netanyahu what for once she took over - especially with him escalating things further and further. Did anyone else get that vibe, or was it just wishful thinking on my part?
Lovely, well as far as I know, the genocide in palestine will stop under Trump…
…when all the palestinians have been wiped out
Them she should have said that
Why did they think Trump is going to help Palestine? He’ll give Israel a black cheque to end Palestine completely.
They don’t think that at all. It’s Trump by default and Harris has to convince to switch. It’s an unfair emotional battle. All of these opinions were “Harris not good enough, therefore Trump”, and Trump never had to clear the ‘good enough’ bar.
Harris not good enough, therefore Trump
For many people it was never trump, but it was a choice between Harris or leaving the presidential vote section blank, or voting third party. Just because you (@Randelung) equate any lack of vote for Harris as a vote for trump doesnt mean the rest of us think like that.
That’s kind of how it ended up working out though, innit? Harris actually lost the popular vote.
Fair enough. I didn’t consider not voting (or third party for that matter) as an option, but, as you say, that’s my subconscious bias.
I’ve often assumed Harris didn’t want to insult her boss by going against him, because I got the impression she was planning to give Netanyahu what for once she took over - especially with him escalating things further and further. Did anyone else get that vibe, or was it just wishful thinking on my part?
Wishful thinking. There’s no guarantee this happens. You would have just removed the most powerful motivator for her to do something about gaza while simultaneously demonstrating to her that she had no reason to do so. All the while AIPAC and the ADF are breathing down her back and offering her bribes not to. It would be like expecting me to build you a house after randomly sending 1 million dollars into my bank account. Why would I? I have the money now and have given you no guarantee that I would do so in the past. You’ll just see me chilling in the Bahamas.
You mean she wouldn’t want a next term?
If she could win without budging on gaza then she would have just learned that she doesn’t need the antigenocide vote for her re-election campaign. The issue would most likely be completely dead to her.
Wishful thinking. Presidencies are always doing less than promised, never more.
Have people been keeping up on the news? Like privately Biden has been feuding with Netanyahu for months. It’s not like Biden is on board with what Netanyahu is doing. He’s been trying to change the course, but publicly attacking Netanyahu would have drawn a ton of fire from the right, which he was trying to avoid during the election season. It shocks me that people really think Biden is cheering this on.
Who is the fucking superpower here? The US could flex it’s muscles and Israel would have to obey. Biden actively chooses not to.
We don’t even have to think the dems are morally better overall and above supporting genocide. They just don’t want a full on war with Iran and increased tensions with Saudi Arabia and for this reason would harden on Israel before letting them annex the west bank which will inevitability lead to regional war. Thing would not be going this way with Kamala as president. Anyone who did vote for her out of protest is very privileged not to live in the West Bank. It’s time to call our representatives to push back on Trump expansionism in Israel. But I don’t have much hope at all.
Biden continues to approve arms sales to Israel, in violation of both domestic & international law. And Harris openly declared her intent to commit the same crimes.
I don’t really give a shit if he privately wagged his finger at Netanyahu.
It shocks me that people really think Biden is cheering this on.
Probably because Biden’s support of Israel is completely unconditional and not contingent in any way on their conduct. Yeah he may disapprove of their conduct, but this won’t affect material Americans support at all - that would be antisimetic or whatever. Because if this Biden’s tacit disapproval doesn’t matter. It can be ignored which is what Netanyahu has been doing. Stop sending arms and Israel’s government’s dreams of conquest will collapse within a week, probably along with this government. But that’s unspeakable, apparently, and the Israeli lobby in the US needs to keep it that way.
Now a government is about to take power that won’t offer any disapproval and could probably be talked into direct military action in the region. I would be surprised if we see American aircraft bombing Gaza and the West Bank within 6 months. Embroiling the US even deeper into this is in Netanyahu’s interest and the trump government won’t mind going along .
Election season is over, why is he not going public?
People will believe what is convenient for them to believe.
He’s been trying to change the course, but publicly attacking Netanyahu would have drawn a ton of fire from the right,
Thank goodness they avoided pissing off the right, else Trump might have won.
So let me get this straight: I’m supposed to vote for someone who thinks it is too politically inconvenient to be publically against an ongoing genocide? Who is sending arms and aid to a nation committing genocide??
There were snipers on the roof of my college because of the pro Palestinian protesters. Pro Palestinian protesters get lumped in with antisemites due to just having human empathy. The voters needed something more than what we saw in the news: furrowed brows, hand wringing, and money sent for bombs. Palestinians die wretched deaths even if you feel real bad about it.
I can imagine the energy that we all could have felt if Harris/Biden had actually did the right thing.
I voted for Harris by the way. Not because I expected she’d end the genocide, but because Trump isn’t a statesman and can’t be trusted if we get dragged into war.
Harris went from: The genocide in Gaza must be stopped at all costs
To: Israel has a right to dEfEnD iTsElF
Someone with a lot of money or influence got to her. I don’t think she was going to changed position back, no.
I don’t see why both those statements can’t be true.
You can say Israel has the right to defend itself and mean it as long as you’re talking about the immediate retaliation (even then, as a nation with access to high level intelligence and technology, the responses civilian death was still unacceptable).
You CANNOT say it in relation to the months that came after. Israel isn’t ‘defending itself’ anymore, their borders aren’t in dire need, their citizens as a whole are not in danger. But, similar to Russia prior to Ukraine’s successful long range strikes into their territory, Israel will spout nonsense about protecting it’s citizens that see danger on a scale 1/10000th of that of the occupied territory of Gaza.
We all know that when someone says “israel has a right to dEfEnD iTsElF” they intend for the statement to be a thought terminating cliche that supports maintaining the current status quo. That is, a genocide in Gaza.
This is such an incorrect take. But disinformation is what the internet craves.
Why do people have this idea that the economy will do better under Trump? Where did this come from?
That’s one of the bullshit things republicans have propagandized people about for decades. Wealthy people do better under them, and then generally republicans run some sort of scam that ends up in economic disaster and a bailout.
Or that Trump cares for the working class?
Trump inherited a great economy from Obama, but ran it into the ground. (His 2018 tax cuts, etc …) Trump got out just as the consequences of his actions started to happen, just as Biden became president. This left Biden with a crashed economy which he worked hard to improve during his election (the US is considered the best and strongest economy after COVID).
Now, just because it’s doing the best, it doesn’t mean everyone is in the best shape. So people are just remembering that the economy on the surface looked better during Trump ) because of Obama) and looked worse during Biden (because of Trump) and assumed that the surface was the same underneath.
What will be really interesting is that the economy isn’t as solid this time for Trump so he’s most likely going to do even more economical damage to the US that will cause it to take even longer to fix for the next president(s).
I think whats missing from many analyses is the general unhappiness people have with the current system. People are suffering now under establishment politics and they don’t believe that more of the same will improve their lives (citing, justly, at least the past 16 years as an example). They are hungry for something radically different. Trump appeals to that sense of radical change on the right. The democrats have blocked their own left wing alternatives and stuck with running establishment candidates.
I don’t believe the economy will do better under trump. I don’t believe people will do better under trump. He is a fascist and his populism is all based on dangerous ideas and lies. However, I am also terminally online and politically engaged. I can easily imagine how someone less engaged can be duped by his lies. It is therefore essential that the democrats provide an alternative left-wing populist candidate that also promised genuine changes to the economic system. So that these voters have someone to turn to who isn’t trump or the inevitable future trump clones. But they’ll never allow that to happen. It threatens their donor class too much.
From propaganda and ignorance.
Peoples lived experiences under Trump turned out to be better than their current ones under Biden, pretty simple. It’s all vibes.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” -George Carlin
But people were freaking the fuck out about the Covid restrictions. Trump opposed them but also made them more necessary for longer. I guess that’s what the average person doesn’t understand.
I’ve read, oh, a dozen ‘pretty simple’ explanations that claimed to explain what has happened. All of them had merits.
I don’t believe things are ‘pretty simple’ anymore.
Apparently a multiple time bankrupt “billionaire” businessman knows more about finances than the average person.
This thought process really concerns me. We really are surrounded by some truly ass ignorant people.
At least they will suffer right along with the rest of us.
Generations of propaganda that “Republican = good economy” is my guess.
I am a huge AOC fan and always have been, but after this election, I’m not voting for women in the primaries. Tens of millions of people just made up excuses to stay home. The media will obsess over any flaw, whether it exists or not, and people will fixate on it.
Maybe AOC will be the first woman president, but it’ll take America 20 years at least to change their tune on the issue.
The entire democratic party lost. The house, the senate. Everything. Virtually every voting demographic (except one), and women voted less than during 2016 and 2020.
This sweeping 2024 loss across all areas is not because Kamala is female.
Ok but I think that is the literal definition of bigotry, even if you seem to be implying that you’re just responding to other people’s bigotry.
They’re not misogynist, they’re just preemptively implementing what the misogynists want. For practicality you see. That’s entirely different.
This is the same way liberals historicaly responded to fascism. They’ll adapt to it before they’ll challenge it. What do you call people who adapted to working with fascists I wonder?
centrists.
The responses to Ocasio-Cortez from split-ticket voters included:
- “It’s real simple… Trump and you care for the working class”
- “Trump is going to get us the money and lets men have a voice. You’re brilliant and have amazing passion!”
- “I feel like Trump and you are both real.”
- “I know people that did this and it was bc of Gaza.”
- “You are focused on the real issues people care about. Similar to Trump populism in some ways.”
- “Because of Gaza”
- “I voted Trump and dems because he reached out to Muslims”
How in the fucking hell did Trump reach out to muslims?
And now Gaza has a snowball chance in hell to continue to exist.
Either these people are ultra dumb, or they gave bullshit answers.
Either these people are ultra dumb, or they gave bullshit answers.
They purportedly voted for Trump and AOC, they’re practically braindead. Ultimately though, that’s the electorate we have.
The final days and weeks the Trump campaign hit the swing districts saying all the things people had been asking Biden and Harris to say.
Biden made sure there was no question there would be 0% chance of course change. Trump, being Trump, could shrug his shoulders one day and decide to change course. Higher than 0% but still probably 0%.
Dishonest politics, but that’s how campaigns use issues to win elections. It sucks and we’re all in for the very preventable ride now.
He met with Muslims group in Michigan. She refused to speak with undecided voters, allowed Israeli family on stage to speak about “October 7” and refused Palestinians family to speak about the war crimes in Gaza.
“We can’t push policies that cause deflation! That will cause people to put off buying things and cause a economic recession, which will cause more deflation leading to a neverending ending spiral! Lets just hold inflation to 2% per year and hope people’s jobs eventually given them raises.”
We have been putting off buying things for years! Houses, cars, cloths, food - if the price goes down, no one will go ‘oh, I’m going to wait a bit longer and see if it goes down more’. No, we will buy like crazy! Every administration that ruled over this inflation spike - be them left wing or right wing - has seen their electoral chances tumble. But god forbid we see even a hint of deflation.
The main problem is that people don’t understand that the Vice President does not set monetary policy. Neither does the President. The Federal Reserve is supposed to be completely immune to political pressure. Fortunately, King Donald will do his best to put an end to that.
I happen to believe that the current policy was correct, and averted even worse problems - but that does not happen in a matter of months. If Trump somehow fails to fudge up the trajectory we are on, he will get to take credit for policies enacted during Biden’s presidency (again, not by Biden, but nobody will care).
Deflation just doesn’t happen in a bubble though.
From my understanding the primary lever that can be pulled for this is the Fed interest rate. With a high interest rates you’re trying to decrease the amount of money institutions spend and rather increase the amount that they invest/save. As it becomes easier to make money by buying bonds than by reinvesting into your business. This in effect removes money from the economy.
The problem here is this means businesses also spend less on salaries, thus triggering layoffs. This then also has a downward pressure on inflation as the working class ends of being layed off as unemployment rises. This puts more and more pressure on businesses to cut costs as more and more people have less disposable income to spend.
This is the downward spiral that’s being referred to here.
In effect you can’t create defationary policies without causing high unemployment, at least in a capitalist society.
Take a look at the history of the Great Depression and the New Deal that helped the U.S. get out of it. Effectively the government had to create jobs to stimulate the economy as businesses couldn’t or wouldn’t shoulder that cost but the government could. As disposable income rose, so did spending and in turn inflation turned positive again as unemployment fell.
Why the hell would you expect Harris to do a 180 on Israel once elected? Pure wishful thinking. If she won by toeing the party line, why would President Harris govern any differently? She could have gone maverick, knowing that there would be no time to replace her as the dem candidate, but the truth is she is perfectly happy with US policy towards Israel.
I see a lot of comments that basically summarize the constituent feedback as “well I guess they’re just stupid then, can’t wait til the leopards eat your face.”
First, keep alienating these voters, sure. See how far that gets you in the next election. We need to be listening to and understanding these voters now more than ever if we are ever going to get out of this. Whether you like it or not, their vote carries as much weight as yours (maybe more depending on what state you’re in).
Second, responding to economy concerns with “well actshually, the economy is amazing. What you mean is inflation” is about the worst response you can give. It’s incredibly dismissive. When someone is scared that they can’t afford a house, can’t see retirement, can’t buy groceries, they don’t care about GDP or stock market numbers. Whatever Biden tried to do to alleviate their concerns wasn’t enough. Inflation stopped but wages didn’t catch up enough. Trump promised to fix it. He is a charlatan but desperate people will cling to anyone who gives them hope. What they experience is a system so incredibly slow to respond to their needs that the "Fight for $15“ really should be the Fight for $30 at this point.
The reason Trump and AOC are popular is that they directly speak to these concerns, whether they have a plan to fix it or not. Both speak of systemic change to make it happen. Establishment candidates don’t.
What this election has taught me is that until the Dems learn to actually prioritize working class needs over identity politics they will lose. Every time. Look at how even women’s reproductive rights was not enough to get them to vote Harris, and yet on states Trump won where there were proposals to protect abortion access, those efforts were successful.
Yelling at voters doesn’t help, neither does educating them.
These things only affect individuals, and there’s hundred of millions of voters out there, in a constantly shifting cohort.
You may as well try to bail out the rising tide with a teacup. You can expend unlimited resources on the task, and you’ll achieve precisely dick.
It doesn’t matter how wrong people are, how stupid people are, or how fucked-up their reactions to things are. You cannot effectively change that at scale, except via constant, persistent social engineering over years or even decades.
If the opposition is offering free pizza, then it doesn’t matter how much healthier and better your free salad really is. Don’t waste your time on trying to convince people, don’t waste your energy on it, don’t waste your emotions on it. People are going to choose the pizza, and you damn well know it.
If you want them to take your offering instead, you need to come up with something that hundreds of millions of people will think is tastier than pizza.
Now sure, you can try and sell people the idea that the pizza guy doesn’t wash his hands after taking a shit. You can put up giant posters of the cockroaches crawling all over the stall, and sure you might make a dent.
But when the alternative looks like a bunch of dry bitter rabbit food to them, no matter how tasty it actually is, you’re fucked.
You need to address the actual concerns of the voters (no matter how stupid), and you need to show them that you’re addressing them, in a way they’ll actually notice and appreciate.
Not ‘ought to’. Will.
What it needs is some angry people who will get up on their hind legs and fight for the working classes. It needs people who are loudly and visibly sick of the status quo, tired of the bullshit and ready to rip the face off anyone who gets in their way.
Not the fucking charity-auction Moira Schitt ghouls schmoozing up to $LARGE_CORPORATION while laughing about the dirty poors, or smirking about how bombing Palestinian children is the only moral choice.
(Seriously, Trump ought to hire Matt Miller and Vedant Patel - they did more to undermine the Dem campaign than anyone else. The optics were an unmitigated disaster.)
Yes, amen, thank you. Abortion beat Harris by 20 points in my state! Clearly there are a lot of Trump voters who are with us on some things and we need to find to common ground to build a bridge and connect us so we can fix this. That common ground is pretty freaking obvious since 99% of us have one thing in common. But Nancy Pelosi has already said no so you need to fall in line and do what she tells you.
Those voters are a lost cause.
Anyone who votes Trump is too stupid and brainwashed to ever be fixed.
First, keep alienating these voters, sure.
Fuck 'em. What are they gonna do, elect a dictator?
Being the loudest dickheads in the room has been the maga brand since at least 2017 if not slightly earlier. The fuck your feelings party. The party full of the folks no one wants to spend a family get together with or talk to about anything of substance because of their unmitigated ignorant racist and bigoted bullshit.
I’m getting a little sick of being told we need to mollycoddle them while they continue jamming their fingers in everyone’s eye at every opportunity.
It’s cool that these people who care so much about Gaza absolutely led to its annihilation by electing Trump. 🙄 Good job, shit piles.
I don’t think people answering a question on AOC’s Instagram account is a fair sampling of her constituents. Even though there are clearly idiots among her followers based on example responses, they’re still going to be skewed toward voters who are more interested in politics on average.
This doesn’t really tell us much.
