My thoughts is that it’s a simple situation really. If they’re harassing or assaulting people, the women will call the cops or something, simple situation and get the guy arrested. If he’s not doing anything, it’s nothing harmful. Apparently that’s not a solid enough answer. What should I have said?
The time for debating conservatives was over a decade ago. Now is not the time for debate. Now is the time to dethrone them. Marginalize hate by marginalizing the haters.
Is there a magical barrier that keeps men who don’t say they’re trans from entering women’s bathrooms?
Yes, peoples expectations, someone who’s obviously trans can use any bathroom, because it’s expected. If a guy walks into a girls bathroom the unknown becomes a real threat. Unless there’s a Karen then all bets are off. Tbh smaller establishments don’t need gendered bathrooms if it’s just a single toilet.
A fictitious rapist can only enter women’s bathrooms for raping purposes if they loudly declare that they are trans.
Oh I see, it’s like bankruptcy.
Unexpected !dundermifflin@lemm.ee
“See I’m trans. You have to let me in here to rape people.”
The social contract, and the knowledge that it isn’t acceptable and any women inside would likely scream and the man would be perceived as an attempted rapist and would face consequences.
So, no. I don’t think a rapist cares much if they’re perceived as a rapist. And a lot of (maybe most?) rapists know that they probably won’t be convicted even if caught.
None of those things prevented rapists from entering bathrooms before.
In my experience what happens is you look at each other confusedly for a moment, wondering who is in the wrong restroom. Then you realise there are no urinals so it’s probably the women’s restroom. Then the man leaves a bit embarrassed. Source: Happened to me at least twice (once the signs were really unclear).
The social contract
and the knowledge that it isn’t acceptable
Rapists, well known followers of social contract who only do things that are acceptable…
It’s not concerning at all that this didn’t seem immensely silly and wrong when you typed it…
and any women inside would likely scream
Because if a bathroom allows trans women, women will then be unable to scream while facing an attempted rape?
the man would be perceived as an attempted rapist and would face consequences.
Are you advocating that any man who even accidentally enters a woman’s restroom startling a woman be declared an attempted rapists?
Otherwise, they will be considered an attempted rapist whether trans and allowed in the bathroom or not…when they start doing the attempted rape…
Yeah, this is probably the right way to go. There’s actually no bathroom police, for most people. It’s an issue in the first place because when someone is trans people will deputise themselves just to harass them.
It’s quite interesting to see them make this argument while also claiming that gun control laws can’t possibly work because criminals won’t abide by them.
I guess we need to allow everyone to use any washroom because we need a good man in the women’s washroom to be around to save the women from a bad man in the women’s washroom
Careful, conservatives have historically been against desegregating spaces.
Not if it means white men can go wherever they want!
Uhhhhh there are no urinals in the ladies so everyone is in a stall? So???
Does this fella want the ladies to shoot him?
(Using the ladylike Darringer from her pocket book, saying “ah do declare” of course)
The greatest thing in life is those 4 way street uninals.
Well you haven’t lived until you’ve had communal log over an open pit in the woods.
…so manly.
Lol remember the piss troughs from the 1980s? Gaze into another man’s eyes while you pee into a bathtub!
Nothing, they’re not genuinely interested in a discussion. They’re just trying to pin you with a bad answer and will keep moving the goal post until they think they gotcha.
And if they can’t “getchya”, they’ll just stop responding or change the subject without ever acknowledging that you’ve proven your point.
This. ☝️
It’s best to ignore them. There’s no use getting into an argument with someone who’s disingenuous to start with.
Nothing.
Nothing is good enough. Gendered bathrooms are about repression. That’s why they are so mad about non-gendered toilets that are popping up.
Gendered bathrooms are about repression.
Oh Jesus Christ fuck me. “Help! Help! I’m being oppressed!”
We’re in the middle of making a sensible culture shift. That’s all. I’m 53 and non-gendered toilets have been a thing forever, it just makes sense to make them more common. Some people don’t like that and some people have never been on an airplane.
And some people scream “oppression” at the drop of a hat, making their screams seem far less serious. (Same goes for “racism!”.)
Gendered bathrooms where a godsend for women.
There was a time women couldn’t travel far from their home bathroom. it was called the lavatory leash.
The current problem is bigots and “communal” toilets (in that order), not gendered toilets.
Explain the scare quotes.
Explain why you’re scared of quotes
Illiterate cunt
This has always confused me for years since this “debate” became part of public dialog.
Why don’t we just have all non-gender bathrooms? A friend of mine used to live in an apartment building where the common area had 4 non-gendered bathrooms.
Each had a fold-out changing table, a single toilet, and a sink, so everybody was accommodated. Men, women, non-binary, trans folks, a parent with their baby or young child, and disabled people because the door was wide enough for a wheelchair and the toilets had support bars next to them.
Fully inclusive to everybody, and nicer than the typical restrooms because they were totally private.
I wish all bathrooms were like this. It would be so much easier for me as well as so many other people.
I know right! It feels like one of those rare true win-win scenarios where all parties involved are better off by the change.
So all restrooms should be gender free?
Yes. A room with a bunch of stalls and sinks.
European type stalls that is, floor to ceiling, real doors.
I’ve only been in a couple non-gendered communal bathrooms and it was a little odd, but only because I wasn’t used to it. The actual mechanics of it were basically the same as a normal bathroom. Go into a stall and do your business then come out and wash your mitts.
I don’t have a problem with it being the standard. I guess I wouldn’t think it would be a good idea for high schoolers because they’re always in heat.
Thats the thing right. You dont care whos shitting in the stall next to you. You’re busy shitting.
This is (should be) true for any public bathrooms, no matter the sign on the door.
High schoolers have sex in gendered bathrooms to though
When I try to recall the few non-gendered public bathrooms I’ve been in, they all had private stalls with real doors. It was nice. I’d be happy if all public bathrooms were like that.
Yes.
It would be cheaper to build actual walls in restrooms than to double their size systematically
I don’t have gendered restrooms in my house and people seem to navigate those just fine. I feel like it would work for public restrooms too.
Yeah. All private ones are already.
I actually prefer men and women separate restrooms because using the urinals is faster than going in to stalls, which reduces the wait time a bit. Then again, if you have two non gendered restrooms, you’ll get double throughput. Also, it would take a while to get adjusted to seeing both genders in the same restrooms, maybe I’m overthinking it, I’ve heard a university near me has non gendered restrooms only and the students are still adjusting to it.
Apologies if I’m rambling.
a lot of queer spaces are converting regular bathrooms to gender neutral bathrooms and the signs often say “with urinals”… who cares if there’s a woman using the bathroom while you’re using the urinal?
Nah you are good.
The thing about this is that men are provided more space for essentials in the workplace, and making men stand to piss means less physically abled people have more trouble operating in that workplace.
So outside the gender ick issues there’s equality reasons that gender neutral toilets are a good thing.
I’m trans and the only reason I stopped using urinals is because it freaked the men out too much lol
They’re so convenient! You don’t have to touch them! And it feels like my bladder empties more completely when standing idk
Gender! 👏 Neutral! 👏 Urinals! 👏
Meh, urinals are pretty gross and you save pretty marginal amounts of time over quickly sitting down at a toilet
I mean, you could have urinals in one room and then gender-neutral toilets in another room. Urinals and gender neutral toilets are not mutually exclusive I think.
Probably should have changed the subject or said goodbye. Arguing with conservatives is exhausting and usually in bad faith. It’s about winning, not exploring a topic together.
Do you realize that this belief actually prevents you from discussing in good faith?
If you dehumanize the other, then you can’t be open to discussion with them.
I don’t negotiate with Nazis
“in your biased example the fact that the person is trans isn’t relevant to anything…what’s your point?”
“Counter question: What stops a creep from doing that even if there was an anti trans law?”
What should I have said?
"Wow, sadly I think it means that person has some serious mental issues, and we should get them some help.
Are you feeling okay? Do you want me to call someone for you?"
I don’t get why we have different bathrooms at this point. Its more efficient to just have them all be family bathrooms with floor to ceiling stalls.
Was at a brewery last night where the “bathroom” was a row of sinks, and then a row of doors labeled “sit” or “stand”. The commode cubicles were full length walls and doors, totally private, and this just makes so much more sense to me
Was at a church yard sale yesterday and they had the same setup. Pretty sure it was not a progressive church.
Amen! I went to a restaurant that had this layout. Each stall was like it’s own little room with a full sized door and a shared sink area. It’s more efficient use of space and you get a better stall. The only thing that I think would make it better would be a small side area with a couple urinals.
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These idiots don’t understand that is assault is assault. It’s not a defense that would work in court. They’re being obtuse to be bigots.
The argument made by the person asking that question is not based on any realistic fear they have actually thought through. On the big list of gendered violence, a cis dude saying they are trans to accomplish… being present in a bathroom without themselves getting harrassed… doesn’t even register.
Instead, this is just a typical attempt to punch down based on an imagined danger, usually on someone else’s behalf. There’s nothing an oppressor likes more than a piece of illogic that frames their target of oppression as, sneakily, the real oppressor. In this case, it is trans people wanting bathroom access without having to out themselves or to otherwise just not contradict their gender. Gender neutral bathrooms would also be acceptable, or even better, but cis people have insisted on gendered bathrooms. Rather than say, “yeah trans people shouldn’t have to put up with that cis bathroom bullshit”, reactionaries try to come up with ways to reframe the ask as its own form of oppression. This is also the mainstay of TERFs, basically just cis women that pretend trans women are oppressing them by wanting basic equal consideration.
Depending on who this person is, you may want to try various tactics. If you think you can be flippant and dismissive of them, definitely do that preferentiallu. Make them feel like they are being ridiculous and that if they really care about violence against women they should work on guaranteeing housing for all and hate cops. If you can’t be flippant, I recommend still not taking it seriously but just changing the subject to the actual act of oppression and telling them more or less what I said in previous paragraphs. All of this assumes this us a person whose mind you want to change, like that of a friend or family member. If it is a colleague, start documenting their transphobuc comments and see if anyone else has your concerns, get their documentation as well. If it is just some rando, just tell them to shut the fuck up with bad faith transphobia and move on.
You should have asked him if he’s planning to do that.
Not saying I have the answers, but I typically attack the person’s desire for oversimplification and binary stupidity. Like, “Do you feel like this question encompasses all bathroom related issues?” It gives me the time to think, while also assessing their vulnerabilities from an unexpected redirection. I ultimately attack their confidence in forming questions by adding edge case exceptions to their simplified outlook.
When someone poses a question like this, the are telling you that they lack depth. They do not have a good grasp of scales or complexity. They also lack the self awareness required to effectively empathize with others. This is a vulnerability that they have exposed. By exploiting this vulnerability, you invalidate their argument, take control of the rhetoric, and you increase the chance that their insecurity motivates growth of their self awareness at some later point.
