Legislation that Gov. JB Pritzker signed into law this month bans physical punishment in private schools while reiterating a prohibition on the practice in public schools implemented 30 years ago.
I’m of the position that violence (broadly speaking, including the smallest offences) is never the best answer to a misbehaving child (or adult for that matter), but there are times when it’s not the worst answer either. When parents don’t have the skills to raise children with other methods, the net result just becomes that the children aren’t raised at all.
Somehow I seem to have gotten through 14 years of parenting a good kid without once hitting her for any reason.
The most violent thing I’ve ever done is grab her wrist and pull her quickly when she was a toddler and on the sidewalk and suddenly decided to try to run off the curb and into traffic. And that wasn’t punishment, that was a last resort to stop her from accidentally killing herself.
This is commendable of course. Do you think it’s because you’re just a better person, or because the child was a better person? Where would you put yourself in the nature vs nurture dimension?
I think it’s because there’s never a reason to hit a child. It has no idea with being a “better person,” whatever that means.
I agree that there’s never a good reason to hit a child.
Surely a person with better self-control (like yourself, apparently) is a better person? Or a person who doesn’t turn to violence when they get too angry to control themselves. Especially as a parent, who is constantly pushed towards angry, at least at some points of parenthood. That’s what I was wondering about: were you a parent with superior self-control or were you a parent with the sort of a child that you didn’t really need superior self-control?
I had my first child decades ago, and until then I had the self-image of being a calm person with a pretty high level of self-control. That image sure vanished quickly, and I was poorly prepared for the dissonance.
You’re the one making this better and worse judgment, not me. All I am saying is that there is no good reason to hit a child.
Do you feel awkward being called a better person? I’m not doing it sarcastically or as a trap.
No, I just don’t think you are really in the position to judge it, only knowing a tiny bit about me. I could be horrific in other ways. But I appreciate it.
Studies have shown that even small acts of violence have detrimental effect on the brain so no, it’s never not the worst, it is always bad.
Can you cite such studies, please?
Thank you for asking. Here is a more recent one. https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/usable-knowledge/21/04/effect-spanking-brain
Great source, thank you!
This will sound like I’m shifting the goalposts (and perhaps it is), but I was at least on some abstract level thinking of something more benign than spanking.
I like how america is slowly making it into the XIX c. Well done america!
I’m sure whatever country you’re from has fully rejected out-of-date ideas.
Good job. Keep making conservatives actively confront their weird, inhumane, hateful bullshit on its face.
The gop is the party of hungry, beaten kids, sitting in understaffed schools, without schoolbooks, and distracted by construction noise from the publicly funded ten commandments statue going up near the school entrance between the active shooter drills. They sit there, nodding off and tired from working a double at the Tyson chichen slaughterhouse the night before.
And never forget, matt gaetz is sitting in the parking lot waiting to offer your kids a ride after school…
Associated Press - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for Associated Press:
MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - United States of America
Wikipedia about this sourceInternet Archive - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for Internet Archive:
MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: Mostly Factual - United States of America
Wikipedia about this sourceThis is overreacting. I was beat as a child and I only need minimal therapy now.
In school and 99% of scenarios, physicality doesn’t do any good. But if you have a really young child, like 3-5, and they hurt another child or an animal and show no remorse, I think spanking is acceptable as a punishment immediately after the incident. They might have trouble with developing empathy and need to understand they hurt another being.
The answer to a child showing such violent tendencies is therapy, not causing them pain.
How does their adult role model hitting them not just teach them that hitting is socially acceptable?
Teaching this to a kid without empathy seems like the worst imaginable circumstance lol.
And I sure as hell don’t want someone other than the parents ever making that decision.
This is the same logic given for school aged children to not fight back against bullies for decades, and bullying is now a huge problem.
I’m talking about a situation where your own child is exhibiting bullying characteristics at a very young age. You can’t sit them down and explain why pulling their sibling’s hair shouldn’t give them gratification…they still want to do it. Just when you’re not around. The consequences have to be emotionally driven, and something they can understand and feel even when an adult is not present. What’s your alternative? Timeout? Take a toy away?
I had a brother who tormented me for many years. My parents tried various things, and nothing worked. The thing that did work was me hitting him in the face with a metal belt when I was like ten when he physically attacked me for the millionth time. He just name-called after that, never touched me.
Obviously an adult is not going to do something like that. But how do you correct a very young child who is exhibiting signs that they are growing into a bully?
No it’s not the same logic. Someone in power hitting someone teaches kids that it is acceptable to use physical violence to get your way, this encourages the child to do even more violence. A victim fighting back against their bully is self defence, it is a different situation completely. I support training victimized kids to fight and stand up for themselves, I don’t support allowing adults to hit kids as punitive measures.
There’s no easy answer to the situation you describe, but the evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates that corporal punishment makes things worse, not better. Self defence against a bully is a completely different situation.
This is the same logic given for school aged children to not fight back against bullies for decades, and bullying is now a huge problem.
So you literally want to teach your kid to be violent? You’re staying very far from “teaching empathy” with this one…
I’m talking about a situation where your own child is exhibiting bullying characteristics at a very young age.
Yeah, those kids usually have violent parents. Of course you think this is a problem to be solved with violence. Too bad you haven’t figured out yet that you’re the reason your kid is violent.
You can’t sit them down and explain why pulling their sibling’s hair shouldn’t give them gratification…
You literally can. You just have no patience to talk to your kids, and use violence instead.
But how do you correct a very young child who is exhibiting signs that they are growing into a bully?
By not being the parent that normalizes violence as a solution to problems.
In school and 99% of scenarios, physicality doesn’t do any good. But if you have a really young child, like 3-5…
You think violence against children is only acceptable if you’re beating a toddler? That’s a really weird conclusion to reach…
I think spanking is acceptable as a punishment immediately after the incident.
Because you’re a shit parent who doesn’t know how to raise a child without resorting to violence. The evidence overwhelmingly shows that negative reinforcement is the worst way to discipline a child. If you think it works, you’re wrong.
They might have trouble with developing empathy and need to understand they hurt another being.
You’re teaching them, by example, to use violence. You’re the parent. Be a role model. How can you possibly think you can use violence to teach that violence is wrong?
But but but . . . hitting solves problems!
Just ask the guy who invented it . . . Hitler.
(I’ll show myself out)
What’s wrong with physical punishment? My dad hit me and I turned out fine after just a decade of therapy.
Careful now, I got in trouble yesterday for not putting a
/son my sarcasm.The
after just a decade of therapy.
does wonders.
Being sarcastic about damn near everything works for me.
This is the way.
Not gonna lie, they had us in the first half.
Fucking hell, how is this still legal in 45 other states???
We have a long way to go
I was unaware it was still legal until this.
I’m not a violent person. I’ve never been in a fight, let alone in jail for assault. If some school official did that shit to my daughter, it would be my first time for both.
TIL… what the fuck. This shit has been illegal Canada wide for generations now, I honestly thought this article was from the past…
Wait…is the modern day US from the past? Was there some sort of time loop?
deleted by creator
Nope, it’s still legal to spank children in Canada. As long as the force used does not exceed what is considered reasonable under the circumstances. Linked article
Personal anecdote: when I was in 3rd grade in the early 2000s, there was a student in class that had major behavioural issues and would act out all the time. I had witnessed an incident in class which the student was acting out in front of the teacher, which eventually escalated to the point where he started throwing his desk around and threw his chair at her. After the teacher returned to class a few days later, she had disclosed to the whole class that she had a signed permission form by the student’s parents authorizing her to use force on the student.
It would explain alot
Wait till you find out how often the state executes harmless restrained prisoners in modern day US.
Barely ever?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_in_the_United_States_in_2023
24 last year is still too many but it’s not like this happens a lot
Oh… I really thought that meanwhile that number was lower… Like significantly lower, like 2 to 3 people.
How many is a lot to you?? Like are you sure this isn’t copium??
How many is a lot to you??
More than 24 a year in a country with a population of 300 million
Like are you sure this isn’t copium??
Idk what that is. If you’re implying I think that 24 is ok, I don’t. 1 is too many. It can be too many and a small number at the same time.
Gotta make sure the kids stay in line so you can get them to work. Don’t forget how many child labor laws have been loosened or removed by conservative states
Cuz of little shits? You know how they say Karens are Karens cuz they never had consequences?
Can you imagine being unable to communicate with a child without having the option of hitting them?
It is entirely possible to give children consequences without hitting them, you lack imagination if the only way you can envision giving a child consequences is to hit them.
Why do you think, “if you do something I disapprove of, I will cause you pain,” is a good lesson to teach a child? When a child does that to another child, it’s called bullying.
There’s a difference between fear and respect. A child should NEVER fear the adult providing their care.
I would actually wager decent money that many of those little shits have been smacked around quite a lot. They learn to react how they were taught by demonstration. If mistakes are met with violence and aggression, then they learn to do the same to others.
I know a teacher who (unofficially) specialises in kids like those. They are hell on a new teacher. However, once they realise that they are not met with aggression, the veneer cracks. The young scared child realises that there is an adult they both cares and shouldn’t be feared. Very soon, just the idea that they might disappoint her is a far better motivator than any punishment could be.
Yes! This is the exact approach a good teacher takes with students who struggle with behavioral norms. There is a reason they are doing what they’re doing. They are reacting to adults the way they have been trained to react by other, shittier adults.
Once they trust you as a person who actually cares, they seem to become a whole new person. They are no longer scared to be vulnerable in front of you. It’s a sacred level of respect that teachers and/or mentor adults need to take very seriously.
I used to be the person who specializes in working with students who struggle with behavioral problems, and I can 100% assure you that exposure to violence from or among adults they are around is what led them to my classrom.
Christian (conservative) values do not differentiate between fear and respect. Preachers harp on their equivalence at the pulpit on a regular basis. They are taught by their respected authority figures that to fear is to respect, and they reinforce those values in their children. It’s no wonder that authority figures in communities that hold these values are some of the most abusive.
They worship a being that kills everyone who doesn’t do what he tells them to and tortures people forever for not believing in him when he is actively hiding from them. The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree in that religion.
Right? I’m often shocked by what is still legal, like the number of states that allow an adult to marry a child.
It’s frustrating how long it takes the legal system to catch up. I experienced corporal punishment in public school. It’s a barbaric and weird practice.
Barbaric, weird, and ineffective. It doesn’t actually address what is causing the behavioral issue. It only punishes the kid for reacting normally to whatever stimuli they are experiencing. It’s especially frustrating when the fix would have been something simple like listening to the kid’s concerns or trying to have a conversation with them to address the root problem.
Like everything else in this country.
The Cruelty is the Point
The thumbnail made me think this was about hitting children with busses, glad to see that’s already illegal
I thought it was going to be a !fuck_cars@lemmy.ml post, until I reached the corporeal punishment part.
hitting children with busses, glad to see that’s already illegal
…for now.
Showing a picture of buses made me think they meant hitting them with vehicles lmao
Otto is way too stoned to get road rage
same lol
When is someone going to spank me for once?
Bonk!
Oh come on, you never stop asking! I’ve done more paddlin’ than Lewis and Clark.
The data available shows hitting kids does absolutely nothing to increase desired behaviors and in many cases is linked to increase in unwanted behaviors.
What do you mean hitting children teaches them that hitting is acceptable?
Next they will tell us that beating our wives for dinner being late is unacceptable!
Yeah I can 100% confirm this. My parents beat me when I was a kid.
I’ve learned to lie better. It’s not something I’m proud of.
My mom wasn’t strong enough to beat me and I quickly got bigger than my step-dad, but the psychological and mental abuse was there. And now she questions why it don’t let her hang out with my son alone and will abruptly leave with him when I get even a whiff of it.
Edit: forgot my point, but yes, I too became a master liar.
To be fair, your case applies to any sort of punishment.
- I’m punished if I do something wrong.
- If they don’t find out, I don’t get punished.
Conclusion: need to hide doing something wrong better.
Doing it out of fear makes it a survival response. Unlike getting grounded and talking about what was wrong.
What kind of beating are you supposed to give children for them to actually fear for their lives? I understand that there are sickos like that, but it’s not that common. I’ve been belted my whole childhood, but I never had any survival response, cause I knew that my parents love me. During the whole thing I was much more worried about getting my PS2 taken away.
A child depends on their parent for every aspect of their survival. To have a parent turn on them in any respect is potentially a life-altering experience, and not in the way the parent intends. We have mountains and mountains of research that you can easily take advantage of. Two people can have the same experience; one receives permanent trauma, and the other just has a bad day. You were fortunate, but it is quite likely you are suffering affects (eg in relationships, self image, spiritual disposition) you are not presently able to acknowledge.
Lemmy back to making assumptions about comments. Not in the least indicated by the amount of downvotes to my original comment. Also Lemming really don’t like hearing truths that don’t vibe with them.
But to address your comment, I suppose you didn’t say anything wrong, but it assumes that I don’t know about adverse effects of corporal punishment and somehow approve of it.
I come from culture where corporal punishment is the default. 90-95% of boys (not so sure about girls, should be much less) experienced it, at least in the years of my childhood (it luckily seems to be going down, from my personal experience). But this doesn’t mean that 95% of boys get beaten to pulp with a bludgeon. Most of the punishment is a slap on the back of the neck or something equivalent. Do I approve of it? No. But unlike some, I’m also willing to acknowledge that it’s by far not the worst thing a parent can do, and the amount of potential trauma is likely negligible. And most children don’t see these as “parents turning on them” or “life threatening experience”. (Source: was a child who went to many different schools with children of various socioeconomic status)
I wasn’t saying I was fortunate, I’m pretty sure I have enough traumatic experiences, including some instances that I remember to this day. And just because all of what I said above is true, you don’t have to assume that my comments are an emphatic endorsement for child-beating, or beating any living creature, for that matter.
Parents who dont respect the bodily integrity of their children are already on the path to more serious corporeal punishment, and that is something that does happen, even if you didn’t see it. Furthermore, it perpetuates the issue, since the children (like you!) learnt that it is a valid parenting tool, and among those there are again future parents who take it further than a small slap, and so on and so on… simply say no to corporeal punishment.
and by the way, it does not take grievous bodily harm to traumatize children. verbal abuse takes it’s toll too, creating deep-seated psychological issues in many children.
The problem is that during childhood, the parents are literally the only lifeline for a child. Every experience that betrays the trust that children HAVE to have towards their parents has potential for trauma. A few isolated incidences might not do damage, but it’s like playing roulette: the more often you play, the higher the chance your number comes up, creating lifelong consequences like anxiety/fear/depression (or when happening in the first few years of your life, personality disorders like my AVPD), inability to have a stable relationship, or bonding issues with your future children.
Don’t hit your children. Don’t yell at your children either. Do not make excuses for people who do this.
Parents that beat their kids don’t really love them. They are releasing their anger on their kids. My mom left bruises and welts from the belt until I pushed her into a wall. I have also never hit my kid now that I have one. Because I take the time to chill myself before punishment.
Not all corporal punishment by parents is “beating”. I was belted, but it wasn’t done out of anger (maybe only sometimes). It was just a misguided method of disciplining, done “for my benefit”.
I have never seen, heard, or talked to anyone that spanked their kid after waiting for 20min. It’s always been in the heat of the moment. It’s a power exchange. An outdated punishment just like making kids eat castor oil, being denied food, or poisoning their kids by making them put soap in their mouth.
Also explains a lot about American culture being what it is.
We all learned to convincingly lie our way out of “the wooden spoon”
Hitting your kids just teaches them to self harm before problem solving
There was a time when corporal punishment was actively encouraged - Spare the rod and spoil the child.
It’s CHILD ABUSE!
To not allow TEACHERS to SPANK KIDS! I’m a Republican trying to Protect The Children!
