It’s sensible for businesses to shift from physical media sales. Per CNBC’s calculations, DVD sales fell over 86 percent between 2008 and 2019. Research from the Motion Picture Association in 2021 found that physical media represented 8 percent of the home/mobile entertainment market in the US, falling behind digital (80 percent) and theatrical (12 percent).

But as physical media gets less lucrative and the shuttering of businesses makes optical discs harder to find, the streaming services that largely replaced them are getting aggravating and unreliable. And with the streaming industry becoming more competitive and profit-hungry than ever, you never know if the movie/show that most attracted you to a streaming service will still be available when you finally get a chance to sit down and watch. Even paid-for online libraries that were marketed as available “forever” have been ripped away from customers.

When someone buys or rents a DVD, they know exactly what content they’re paying for and for how long they’ll have it (assuming they take care of the physical media). They can also watch the content if the Internet goes out and be certain that they’re getting uncompressed 4K resolution. DVD viewers are also less likely to be bombarded with ads whenever they pause and can get around an ad-riddled smart TV home screen (nothing’s perfect; some DVDs have unskippable commercials).

  • Victor@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    When someone buys or rents a DVD, they […] can also watch the content if the Internet goes out and be certain that they’re getting uncompressed 4K resolution.

    I’m sorry, is this a special version of DVD that can store 4K video? Uncompressed?

    • TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml
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      4 months ago

      They’re talking about 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray, which was introduced in 2016. The video is still compressed, but it’s still much higher quality than DVD and Blu-ray, and can hold 60-100 GB of data.

    • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      It’s easy as long as you’re okay with only being able to fit probably 1-2 minutes of video, the resulting disk not playing in any consumer player ever, and probably not even being capable of real time playback on a powerful PC with a fast drive.

    • Gestrid@lemmy.ca
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      4 months ago

      At the very least, it’s still (generally speaking) higher quality video than streaming. It’s not uncompressed, though.

      • Victor@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Surely not? DVD is 576p/i (PAL) and 480p/i 💀. Not even 720p. 720p looks like garbage on a 4K display IMO. I really hope you are getting higher resolution from your streaming services than that, otherwise I think you’re getting ripped off. (Streaming services are a ripoff to me regardless, but that’s another point.)

        • Gestrid@lemmy.ca
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          4 months ago

          Others replying to the comment included Blu-ray, so I did, too. I assumed it was a given to include that since others had already brought it up.

            • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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              4 months ago

              No, you’re absolutely correct. Many people just don’t realize how crappy the resolution is on DVD, and I would hate for people to buy some and be surprised at how bad it looks.

              I ripped all of my DVDs because I have them, and combined they’re something like the size of one or two 4k Blurays. So don’t go out and buy a bunch of old DVDs if Blurays are an option for you.

              • Victor@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                combined they’re something like the size of one or two 4k Blurays

                Ha! That’s pretty funny to me.

                I think that would be a fun hobby for me, if I had the time for it. To gather a sizable blu-ray collection, and rip into a smaller size media library. There’s so much to get into though, with all the codec options and settings and quantizing and shit. Mind-boggling when you haven’t even started researching yet. 😅

                • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                  4 months ago

                  Well, just start somewhere and optimize as you go. I’ve got an 8TB NAS (two 8TB drives in mirror), and it’s not even halfway full, despite having a ton of DVDs and Bluray rips. I haven’t bought many Blurays lately bags because Netflix was good enough, but I’m getting back into it.

                  DVD max quality is 480p, and it takes up ~2GB for longer movies at super quality m4v format with Handbrake (the first Hobbit movie was 2.5GB). 1080p Bluray rips are like 10x that.

                  I accidentally ripped a few with the wrong settings, but it’s easy to redo it. So just get started, but make sure you have plenty of disk space. I use Jellyfin for watching on my TV and it works pretty well and was pretty easy to set up.

    • Todd Bonzalez@lemm.ee
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      4 months ago

      4K BluRay discs are compressed with HEVC. There’s no way to get consumer 4K video uncompressed.

      Uncompressed 4K@30fps requires A 6000mbps data rate. BluRay caps out at 144mbps.

      A 90 minute movie would be 4TB. BluRay caps out at 128GB.

      • Victor@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Exactly. And a regular DVD caps at 4.7 GB if I’m not mistaken. Not even close.

        • Malfeasant@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          That’s just single layer - dual layer is something like 8.4 if memory serves (which it often doesn’t…)

  • Passerby6497@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    My favorite part about DVDs is how sometimes they look just fine but the video doesn’t actually play. I got a DVD from the library recently that the video stopped 10 minutes in the first episode and you couldn’t even play or rip past that point either.

    Physical media still really sucks in a lot of ways.

    • Malfeasant@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      DVD is better than Blu-ray in that regard - I’ve ripped DVDs that look like they fell off a truck and got run over multiple times and had no problem, meanwhile about 1 out of 5 Blu-rays I got from Netflix would have problems despite looking pristine. It has to do with the data density, Blu-ray packs so much more in the same amount of space, one microscopic scratch wipes out so much data…

      Of course some DVDs suffer from bad materials. I was re-ripping my collection recently, and I have a few that have sat in a closet untouched for years, not a scratch on them, but the drive won’t even recognize there’s a disc. Probably oxidation of the reflective layer.

    • Katana314@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      This is what’s made me a little more okay with digital video games. The chance that some bizarre event will lead to that game becoming unplayable is non-zero. But, that’s the case for physical game discs as well.

      I’m upset at events like The Crew’s removal and hope for more laws to make such things unlikely. Still, I’m generally accepting that by and large, publishers don’t try to delete or remove access to people’s games. There’s no specific motivation in it for that particular evil.

      Movies, however, I’m reticent. I liked being able to buy a few cheap movies on digital services, but Sony’s mass deletion of their library makes me hesitant to continue there.

      • zarenki@lemmy.ml
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        4 months ago

        Likewise, I’m far less hesitant to accept buying digital console games than video because I generally can expect that once I download a game on my one device that I’ll pull out the same device whenever I want to play it and it’ll keep working when offline and even after the servers are gone, until the hardware fails. Modern games’ physical releases rely so heavily on updates and DLC that the cart/disc you get isn’t complete anyway; buying physical effectively becomes a digital game with an extra point of failure (and partial resellability). PC gaming complicates things but at least some games are available completely DRM-free there.

        With video content sold online, streaming directly from some server is always the focus. As soon as the server disconnects you become unable to watch by default. Even if some service lets you pre-download within its app and watch offline (which probably won’t work indefinitely without checkins anyway), that’ll defeat the portability expectations for watching your videos on any device interchangeably.

        Blu-ray video isn’t ideal considering you cannot watch it on a phone, tablet, or linux system without cracking its DRM, but that’s still way better for lasting access than anything else major movie/TV studios are willing to let consumers access without piracy.

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Also, you don’t have to worry about some random service shutting down. There are so many online dependencies with modern consoles that of the service shuts down, you gave an unusable brick, regardless whether you possess the bits they sold you

  • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip
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    4 months ago

    The enshittification of streaming is enshittifitentional.

    Major B&M retailers of physical media are either dead, dieing, or have phased out physical media.

    What a perfect time to issue a deathknell to the whole concept physical ownership.

    Streaming originals that disappear will come back in limited release. It’ll basically be the Disney Vault of streaming. A company like Netflix would subtly drop references and nods to “removed” popular shows in their new shows to make you nostalgic for the old show. Then bring it back for a couple months.

    You’ll especially see them all fighting for the best Christmas specials, but they’ll pull this shit with Stranger Things by the end of the decade. They expect people to plan-hop and will use limited releases and seasonal specials as their carrot.

  • db2@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    It’s sensible for businesses to shift from physical media sales.

    Sensible to who?

    • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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      4 months ago

      Physical is practically dead.

      One by one I’ve seen pretty much any shop that specialises in physical media go bust. Virgin Megastores, HMV, Blockbuster, Game. The media section in my local supermarkets have gone from several aisles of games and movies, down to a single rack of recent releases. Even in gaming, I’ve had my disc PS5 for two years now, and the only thing I’ve put in it was Top Gun on 4K disc. The other games (BG3, Talos Principle 2) I purchased weren’t even available on disc.

      Consumers don’t want it in large numbers, so they stop making it.

      • Olhonestjim@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Really? Because used media stores are booming all over the place. Stores that sell new and used records alongside CDs, Movies, and video games seem to be in every mid size town I pass through.

        • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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          4 months ago

          The smaller towns like mine feel the effects first. It’ll trickle up.

          Game went that way, eventually being taken over by the used section, and now all we have left locally is CEX, which is used only. Most of the prices are about the same as buying new from Amazon. Anything really cheap is often the same stuff in subscription services.

          Game still exists, but it’s tucked away at the back of Sports Direct shops in out of town shopping centres, and their main products appear to be plushies and funko pops.

          It is dying, and I’m not convinced it can be saved at this point. Who has a CD player any more? DVD players have gone from a £30 box that everyone had to something stuffed in the attic and the apps are built into the TV. A 4K BR player is still £150+ even for a cheap one. You don’t even get Dolby Vision at that price point. I don’t expect the next generation of consoles to have disc drives at all.

          Physical media is on life support, and it won’t be long before they pull the plug completely.

          • Olhonestjim@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            When I think small town, I’m thinking a couple hundred people. I’ve never seen those kinds of stores there. Medium is a few thousand. They usually have one.

            The nice thing is that there are millions of discs and players still out there. For anyone who prefers physical media and avoids streaming (this guy!) there is no shortage. Prices could stand to come down. But even if they do quit making them, there are lifetimes worth of vintage media, and newer isn’t always better.

            • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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              4 months ago

              I’m talking a town of 35,000-40,000 people. There is not a single dedicated new physical media shop here. The most we have is the rack in the supermarkets. It all went online to Amazon, etc, and now it doesn’t look like it has long there either.

              And while that old media will last a decent while, it doesn’t last forever. The discs degrade, and fairly soon compared to CDs. Like 25 years or so.

              And if nobody is making discs any more, the drives won’t be far behind. It’s full of moving parts, so stock up on them. It happened to floppy discs, it’ll happen to optical discs too.

              • Olhonestjim@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                I didn’t say new store, I said vintage. If you don’t have one, I’d be surprised. There’s gonna be one somewheres nearby.

                As for aging media, you’re right about that. Best make sure we reform copyright law soon. They don’t deserve to gatekeep the entire world’s cultural history.

      • prole@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        I’ve had my disc PS5 for two years now, and the only thing I’ve put in it was Top Gun on 4K disc

        You are really missing out then, because if you know where to look (like psprices.com) you will often find sales on only physical copies at Amazon, Best Buy or GameStop.

        I’m talking like significant sales. Like AAA games less than a year old (that still costs $60 on PSN) for $15.99 kind of sales.

        I cannot tell you how many PS4 and PS5 games I’ve gotten, and which, for 40%+ off. Too many to count. I’ve saved hundreds if not over a thousand dollars doing this.

      • OfficerBribe@lemm.ee
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        4 months ago

        And customers. Almost everyone prefers to consume media in a simple way and that is streaming. Almost no one will go back to physical media. If streaming becomes absolutely unbearable, people would turn to digital downloads.

      • jqubed@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Yes, the costs to actually make and distribute a physical disc are relatively low on a unit basis, but the cost of distributing a digital copy online make physical media look astronomical.

        • Arbiter@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Even outside of cost, the level of control they can exert is vastly higher than any physical media.

          Being able to prevent someone from reselling the movie or game they bought is very appealing to rights holders.

    • conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
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      4 months ago

      For all the reality of “streaming rights are a shitshow”, what percentage of the population do you think is willing to buy physical movies?

      Because I don’t think it’s all that high.

      • dan@lemm.ee
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        4 months ago

        Someone go make Steam for videos and I’ll pay for media again. My stipulations are:

        • Once I buy it, it’s mine forever (otherwise piracy is better)
        • The file is high quality, DRM free, and in a selection of standard formats (otherwise piracy is better)
        • I can redownload it from the service at any time (otherwise piracy is better)
        • I can get everything I want to watch (otherwise piracy is better)
        • SGG@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Companies see that as a mistake. They want you on a subscription for life that they can arbitrarily change at any time.

          Profits not increasing enough for this quarter? Better cut content, increase prices, increase the number of ads.

          Profits increased amazingly this quarter? Better cut content, increase prices, increase the number of ads.

          Profits down? Better cut content, increase prices, increase the number of ads, and start adding extra paywalls to some content

          They want you to own nothing. Oh you unsubscribed? Sorry even the content you paid extra to unlock was only available while your subscription continued, you will need to start your subscription again and then pay to unlock the content again.

          A show isn’t popular enough? Better write it off, pull it from all distribution so you can claim it as a tax write off

          • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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            4 months ago

            I wouldn’t even mind the subscription if all the content was there reliably, and I only needed one.

            I subscribe to a music service, because all the music is there and it’s easier than swiping it.

            If I had to subscribe to four different ones to get access to all the artists I listen to, then I’d still be pirating that.

        • Stovetop@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Steam satisfies only your third point, though. Otherwise, no. You don’t actually own your Steam library, Steam itself is DRM, and it doesn’t have everything.

        • mrvictory1@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          FYI Steam had videos a few years ago, new purchases are discontinued but one can still playback their existing library.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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          4 months ago

          I honestly don’t mind copy protections, I just don’t like online DRM. If the service is good enough, I’ll look past that particular portion.

            • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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              Not necessarily. DVDs and Blurays have copy protections, but they don’t require access to any servers. Online DRM sucks because if your internet goes out, their servers are having troubles, or they just shut down the servers for whatever reason, you cannot use your media.

              So I’m mostly fine with offline copy protections (someone will crack it eventually), I’m not okay with DRM that requires online access.

          • dan@lemm.ee
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            4 months ago

            I won’t. “Copy protection” is much more about restricting and potentially even removing your access to something you’ve paid for than it is about preventing copying. I am not willing to buy something that can be revoked when alternatives are available.

            • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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              4 months ago

              Offline copy protection, like the copy protection in DVDs and Bluray, can’t be revoked, they’re literally designed to be static. It’s really not an issue since, given time, it’ll be cracked (and both are, I literally just finished ripping my collection). I’m fine with that form of copy protection, I’m not fine with online-only DRM because that’s totally revokable.

              • dan@lemm.ee
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                4 months ago

                Disagree. In order to keep those keys secure they can’t publish them, so they’ll have to license some sort of decryption chip. That just pushes the price up as some manufacturer ends up taking a cut from every player sale.

                Also means you can’t do what you want with it. You probably can’t play it on an open source device. Etc etc.

                • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                  4 months ago

                  Sure, I’d need specific hardware to access the media, but after I rip it, I can access it anywhere. The benefit to me of something like a Bluray isn’t the disk itself, but being able to legally buy media and rip it to a digital format at home. That’s a legally gray area since breaking copy protection measures is technically a copyright violation, but there’s also legal protection for backing up media for personal use, so it’s a bit of a gray area.

                  Given that there are no other legal or mostly legal alternatives, I’m satisfied with that as an option. Media companies rarely, if ever, go after people who rip media for personal use (probably because it’s not worth their time and it’s a legal gray area), so I’m okay with that status quo. If there were a legal option to get DRM-free media for offline use, I’d totally go for that. I tried that with streaming services, but the apps I used (Netflix and Disney+) failed when I actually needed them (my downloaded files “expired” on a trip when I didn’t have internet access), so that’s not going to work for me.

                  If this legally gray area goes away and I can’t easily rip media into a DRM-free format for personal use, I’ll go back to the alternatives I used when I couldn’t afford physical media and Netfilx wasn’t yet a thing.

          • dan@lemm.ee
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            4 months ago

            I know, I modified it to make more sense for video.

            • paraphrand@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              So then we have iTunes. The only one it does not cover is the permanent ownership. Companies have yanked stuff from iTunes libraries before.

              • thejml@lemm.ee
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                4 months ago

                That’s why you download it. Luckily iTunes m4a files are high quality and unlocked so I can instantly play them in anything, even my Synology apps.

                Video isn’t the same though. That’s all still encrypted.

  • Toes♀@ani.social
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    4 months ago

    I have a 4k BluRay player I picked up for cheap. But I only have like 2 movies for it.

        • Peffse@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          I thought those players only worked on special 3D TVs? I’ve never tried the feature because my TVs are always the cheap ones.

          • Toes♀@ani.social
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            4 months ago

            Yeah it does require a tv with that feature. Mine supports it but I’ve never thought to try it because it needs glasses. (and probably won’t because they are expensive last I checked)

  • AutoTL;DR@lemmings.worldB
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    4 months ago

    This is the best summary I could come up with:


    The end of Redbox marks another death knell for the DVD industry at a time when volatile streaming services are making physical media appealing again.

    But on Wednesday, Judge Thomas M. Horan of the US Bankruptcy Court for the District of Delaware approved a conversion to chapter 7, signaling the liquidation of business, per Deadline.

    Redbox’s remaining 24,000 kiosks will close, and 1,000 workers will be laid off (severance and back pay eligibility are under review, and a bankruptcy trustee will investigate if trust funds intended for employees were misappropriated).

    In April, Target confirmed that it will only sell DVDs in stores during “key times,” like the winter holiday season or the release of a newer movie to DVD.

    But as physical media gets less lucrative and the shuttering of businesses makes optical discs harder to find, the streaming services that largely replaced them are getting aggravating and unreliable.

    Still, places that offer DVDs have gotten significantly rarer recently, and relying solely on an increasingly cable-like streaming industry for home entertainment is a scary proposition.


    The original article contains 768 words, the summary contains 175 words. Saved 77%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

  • AbidanYre@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    No ads when you pause, but holy hell, we’ve been getting DVDs from the library, and sometimes it’s a good ten minutes of crap before the movie actually starts.

  • Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    I mean…I just bought Batman the animated series on DVD. Whole series too. I never got to watch it as a kid, but I hear it holds up even for adults.

    I also bought Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles DVD which has the first 3 movies from the 90s. The stupid Micheal Bay reboot from the 2010s, and also a movie called “Batman vs TMNT”. Which sounded bizzare enough for me to buy.

    Now I just need time to watch these things.

    • Dizzy Devil Ducky@lemm.ee
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      4 months ago

      May not be the same type of stuff, but I’ve seen comple box sets of shows like Courage the Cowardly Dog, Edd Ed N Eddy, and a few other shows for roughly around $30 a set at my local Walmart. It’s absolutely beautiful to see physical media box sets at a reasonable price crushes streaming prices.

    • RaoulDook@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      Because the discs will safely store that data for decades longer than any of your hard drives will likely work.

    • t_berium@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      Physical media cannot be altered afterwards. That’s a thing Disney likes to do, for example.

      Plus maximum video and audio quality. Some people don’t watch movies on phones or laptops, you know.

      • Deceptichum@quokk.au
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        4 months ago

        Or store them on a portable hdd and have redundancy without hoarding shiny plastic discs.

        • bluGill@kbin.run
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          4 months ago

          I store the discs because while ripping is of questional legallity by having the discs I have the morals right.

          • EngineerGaming@feddit.nl
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            4 months ago

            I find this to be an odd choice. No one is coming to your home to check. You KNOW you paid for the media. I’d throw the disks I know I would never use out, or sell them.

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              4 months ago

              Nobody today is not coming to my house. However the world has not always changed in ways I like. If the media companies want to make an example of somebody they might randomly pick me. If I have physical media they will not be able to convince the general public I’m a dishonest thief and so even though I might be legally in the wrong for ripping DVDs they will stay away: they are going to look for someone who they can make look like a dishonest thief in the court of public opinion. They are not looking to take me to court and win whatever damaged they are owned from my activity (it will cost them about 100 times as much $$$ in lawyers fees - they would probably win but it isn’t worth it), what they would be looking for is to make an example in the news about how much someone loses and if I have physical media they instead look like jerks for enforcing a law on something that the generally public wouldn’t even call a crime.

            • Agrivar@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              If you throw away perfectly fine physical copies, you are just contributing to the ever-increasing plastic waste poisoning our ecosystems, and if you sell them then your digital copies are now illegal. Just put them in a disc binder and stick 'em in a closet for fuck sake!

              • acosmichippo@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                you are just contributing to the ever-increasing plastic waste poisoning our ecosystems

                so are you. they’re all going to end up in a landfill one way or another.

                Just put them in a disc binder and stick 'em in a closet for fuck sake!

                you mean throw the plastic case away?

                • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                  4 months ago

                  If you’re going to sell the disks, just pirate instead, it’s the same in a legal sense (you have something you don’t have a legal claim to).

                  If you’re worried about space, get a disk binder or something. Disks aren’t that big, cases are, so ditch the case and keep the disk. I keep the disks too, but I have a ton of storage space.

    • Drusas@kbin.run
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      4 months ago

      I’ve started buying DVDs and Blu-ray again after years of not doing so because there have been multiple instances of me purchasing a movie on some streaming platform and then it no longer being available. Also, there have been even more instances where it’s less expensive to buy the physical product and then rip it than it is to buy the digital copy.

    • 0x0@programming.dev
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      4 months ago

      Because the current trend is to ensure the consumer owns less and less and just pays monthly for access rights.

      • Grimy@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        I really don’t understand why they don’t include this stuff on streaming services.

  • mctoasterson@reddthat.com
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    4 months ago

    Several tech YouTubers have talked about moving entirely to Jellyfin or similar, self-hosting their own movies and TV series from legally owned, ripped copies from their own DVD or Bluray collection.

    It takes some work and time to rip, encode, and organize the files. But if you want to go this route, there has probably never been a better time. You can routinely purchase used DVDs and Bluray from thrift stores for a few bucks per disc… sometimes less. If I had a server and hard disk space I’d probably be going this route for media consumption.

    Eventually the DVDs will go away entirely and then it will be impossible to create your own legal archival copies.

    • thecookie94@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      4 months ago

      “Self hosting their own movies and TV series from legally owned, ripped copies from their own DVD and BluRay collection”

      Ngl, whenever they say that they be doing that in said videos I smirk a lil. Yeah sure, that’s what you say when you’re in front of the camera&recording a video pointing out what others could be doing as well. All while they likely got stuff obtained from the seven seas on there as well, just like folk that are going to replicate that setup are going to have as well. Let’s not kid ourselves, a whole lot of content is only legally accessible via streaming services with no other options (shortly before it gets removed from the streaming services, leaving no legal way to access it), and that amount is becoming more each and every single day 😅

    • Entropywins@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      Be careful I started down that road with a 500gb external hdd and now I’ve got a 40tb raid array and a homelab consuming my walk in closet.

      • eletes@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        If you know plex it’s the same thing just open source.

        But they are just video player front ends for your media libray

        • GladiusB@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          I mean I have VLC. I have no issues with most media. I was under the impression it was a source for the media. Thanks.

          • FlavoredButtHair@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            Plex and Jellyfin organize your media using metadata and it’s pretty much your own Netflix, Hulu type thing.

            However, if you get a Plex pass you can stream your media outside of your network to friends and family. Or just yourself when you’re out of the house. But your PC would need to stay on, unless you have a NAS bay with the hard drives in it.

    • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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      4 months ago

      Honestly, I’d rip my collection, but at the time it takes to download that quality rip I’d be quicker just typing them all into Radarr and coming back later…