I’m curious to hear thoughts on this. I agree for the most part, I just wish people would see the benefit of choice and be brave enough to try it out.
Because Windows or iOS is already loaded when they buy the machine.
This is the only answer, and anybody who doesn’t agree just doesn’t understand users. They just use whatever you give them.
… and by implication, it guarantees that Linux will (almost definitely) never be the world’s desktop. Mainly because there’s no one single company to blackmail.
Android managed it, so can desktop Linux. We just need manufacturers who will ship it as default.
Astra Linux will be Russia’s main desktop if this war continues for another 4 or 5 years. China UOS (Deepin) will be China’s main desktop by 2030 or so if the USA keeps up with the trade war. Lots of countries will adopt Deepin if it’s cheaper and just as stable. Linux will never be the main desktop in the West but we’ll see non US allied countries become Linux countries in the next 20 years.
Imagine a state driven open source distro like deepin in some years.
Highly probable. But considering Microsoft has been subsidized by the US government indirectly for decades I don’t see it being much different except that the GPL license hopefully will allow for the OS to become a common good.
Uhm how is chinese state looking to make profit of Deepin?
What do you mean by make profit of?
I would really love a ‘standard’ Linux. Mint, Puppy, Fedora and so on are good enough.
I ‘pray’ every night for a killer Windows upgrade bug, but I think only Apple would benefit. Teens seem to have only iPhones as a status thing.
The author is an idiot.
When someone comes to me asking how to get into Linux, they do not need to hear a laundry list of distributions to choose from.
Only techies ask anyone how they “get into Linux”. Say it with me now. “People don’t buy, buy into, get into, install, or use operating systems” They buy fuckin computers. It is perceptibly to virtually all non-techies a feature of the device.
There are a million types of cars but people manage to pick one and buy it same with breakfast cereals or shampoo because they are obligated to make a decision or go hungry, dirty, or walk everywhere.
People don’t particularly like making decisions and they decided what OS they were going to use when they bought the computer and they have no intention of downloading an iso, write it to a USB, figure out how they boot from it, figure out the bios options they need to disable and what works differently than what they are familiar with.
You lost them around step 2 and lost all hope of moving forward unless the prize at the end is something much better than “does everything I used to do but differently”
The success of Chromebooks, android phones, and the steam deck is that it was driven by devices people wanted to use not an OS people wanted to use. If you want to see more Linux use that is the story you need to focus on.
This is one that we can’t just solve by putting computers on the shelf.
Some people have tools that don’t work on Linux natively. If somebody is using and is familiar with Microsoft Excel, there isn’t a straightforward way to install it and FOSS options aren’t the same. The same can be said of Adobe.
Linux as a desktop environment will have to be for enthusiasts for a while longer. Hopefully, somebody gets more feature parity with the existing suites and the transition can just work out of the box.
But Linux when compared to Windows and Mac is a case study of capitalism vs FOSS. We (Linux users) generally think Linux is better and maybe it is, but Microsoft and Apple spent tons of money to make theirs what they are today and we didn’t.
Microsoft and Apple spent tons of money to make theirs what they are today and we didn’t
Not personally, but there’s loads of companies that work and contribute to the kernel and all the surrounding software, they give funds, obviously not as huge as Microsoft’s paycheck, but with less I’d say we have achieved way way more in several aspects, application support is entirely on the devs, be it Microsoft (again) or Adobe or what have you, yet we’re able to run alternative suites that are at least an 80% of what those proprietary options offer, for the office suite in particular I think we’re pretty well off with Onlyoffice.
Money, though important, is clearly not a measure of quality in software
My point wasn’t that they spend money on quality. Much of what they spend on is perception and awareness.
Ah then I misunderstood, but what do you mean with that exactly, advertising?
Marketing is a big portion of it. There’s also less obvious versions. Microsoft was busy making deals behind the scenes with OEMs for a long while with the intention of getting Windows to be the default OS in stores. Early OEMs didn’t just wake up and start building for Windows. Bill Gates showed up at there office and convinced them to.
Apple donated a bunch of computers to schools. Many people just believed that it was because they cared about education but really it is an attempt to get kids hooked into the Apple ecosystem early.
Building brand loyalty isn’t just about advertising and it’s not even about making the best product. Early and repetitive access is more important. Advertising and product placement are more about awareness than loyalty. Loyalty is generally exploiting people’s fear of change.
The open source ecosystem by virtue of being free software just doesn’t have those billions of dollars to invest. For office software google docs are sufficient for a whole lot of use cases and easily shareable whereas more complex usage is easily handled by libre office.
Photoshop is legitimately better than alternatives but popular as it is only a tiny fraction of PC users use or need Adobe.
26M vs 2B is approx 1.3% of PCs
I also don’t need to select my car based on its ability to haul thousands of pounds of cargo or its performance on a racetrack either.
If we want photoshop for Linux we need to collectively bankroll it. If not there is plenty of space in the market for computers without photoshop because that is by far the majority of computers.
Alternatively coming soon to a web browser near you
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=vvNoZxoMuGI
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
If Lenovo or HP or whatever started selling their notebooks for way cheaper without the windows license on the machine linux would probably get a lot more usage. But they would probably have to put big warnings on that to avoid a big return wave, which would hamper the whole deal.
Actually OEMS get money for including Windows because they include shovelware trials of crap like Norton that is of greater value than the reduced cost of Windows to the big players. If sold at difference in cost the decrapified Linux version would be more expensive not less.
That’s not mutually exclusive with the author’s argument, though.
if a computer vendor offers multiple distributions to choose from, the problem of choice remains.
And if the vendor only offers one option, which one should it be? And how can a user verify that it’s a “good” option?
It wouldn’t really matter, does everyone wonder if the Android ROM they’re running is the best and if they should install a different one?
People do notice how good or bad they are, but that’s it, at most they’ll switch to a different vendor next time they buy a productHmm good point!
“Why dont more people use the linux desktop” its because they don’t care about computers. To most people computers are a tool and they are not interested in what the underlying software is doing as long as they can run a web browser.
Or because Windows comes pre-installed on almost all machines. Many people don’t even know what “operating system” is. It’s just a part of the computer for them.
steam deck proves this. If everyone loved windows so much they would install it on the deck but they don’t. Microsoft pays the PC makers in the states a lot of money to keep Windows Pre-Installed. Even then Hp put our a dev Linux Laptop because Dev’s want a Unix like OS ether Linux or Mac.
Valve made games “just work” on the Steam Deck. No tweaks, CLI, hacks, or major performance issues. They took away the friction. I hope that in time all games will just work on Linux. When that happens and I can use my gaming peripherals like wheels and pedals I’ll be giving up Windows on my gaming PC.
Man this is so wrong, I don’t even know where to start.
If everyone loved windows so much they would install it on the deck
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Valve has dedicated millions of dollars to making shit work on Linux so that MS cannot control them.
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Specifically on handhelds, Windows is ass. Because it’s not designed for them. That’s why Valve developed a version of Linux specifically intended for this single device.
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Windows is still installed on like 95% of gaming PCs because “everyone loves it so much”.
Microsoft pays the PC makers in the states a lot of money to keep Windows Pre-Installed.
What? No. MS charges the PC makers to install Windows, not the other way around… Why would they pay them?
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On the same token - anyone who also knows what an OS is shouldn’t care either. Use the best OS for your job and needs. Reap the benefits of all of the OSs that you can run and switch between them like an army knife. It is the best when all of them complement each other.
For me I dont agree with “Use the best OS for your job and needs” sometimes I am willing to use a less functional product because I believe that the future would be better with more FOSS software. Morally I cant dual boot windows to play the games that dont support linux because then im supporting microsoft and games that support mircosoft.
I’ve always said this to people. I use Windows, Linux, and MacOS. I use whatever best suits what I’m doing and I like that idea. It may end up being 20/70/10, but so what. Why battle a shitty Linux app If you have a good MacOS app. Or maybe your liking that windows app for a certain task.
In reality this is really only something a dev or power user would really do though.
I think the reason is that 1. Linux is still too hard for the average person and 2. The average person just doesn’t care
Yes, you don’t have to write bash scripts or compile the kernel yourself, but still, Linux is different in many ways from Windows. This is on top of the fact that most people don’t know much about tech in general and often have problems with (imo) very basic stuff. I honestly can’t imagine them downloading an ISO file, flashing it onto an USB stick and then booting from it. Most people probably don’t even know that Windows != PC
Then there’s also the fact that the average person just doesn’t care. They just want to get things done
(sidenote: I might sound elitist but I’m not. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect everyone to be interested in tech, just like it’s not reasonable to, for example, expect everyone to be interested in cars. It just so happens that the tech industry is tightly connected to freedom, privacy, etc. while the car industry is not)
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Mostly yeah
Linux is different in many ways from Windows
I kinda want to softly disagree with this point (and i’m sure others will disagree with my disagreement), because the average user pretty much does everything they do in a web browser. A few of them might have to use thunderbird for email, instead of their web browser, and thats about it.
And to be perfectly honest, Theres no significant functional difference, for those average users, between linux and windows. Just got to put the browser and email icons somewhere on the desktop where its visible and thats basically that.
I speak of personal experience (so take it with a grain of salt and skepticism), because I have pretty much my entire family on linux, though to be fair I got them on linux by basically saying “Listen, your computers old, and the OS is no longer supported. Either you can pay me a lot of money to get you a new computer and new version of windows, or I can install linux on what you have for free and you can keep going without any investment”. Being cheap, they always chose linux.
in my experience, almost all the terror that rises from the deep with regards to linux, comes the second you try to do anything more intensive than web browsing/email… Cause they you are running into installing things, tweaking things, problem finding, etc etc.
Yeah, but when I tried to get my mom to use Linux, she kept asking me how to do some things like moving a file, printing a PDF, saving a document in Libreoffice (even though she had no trouble doing it on Windows also with Libreoffice) etc. I’ve set up everything to be as seamless and close to Windows as possible but she still always had trouble doing something so I gave up, and reinstalled Windows. Ig my mom is just less tech savy than your family
¯\_(ツ)_/¯it takes literally no tech savy to open a browser.
Yeah, my mom didn’t have issues with that, but she did have issues with other almost as basic stuff
Because windows is preinstalled on the computer they buy. That is literally it
Yeah. Windows isn’t a choice. It’s what you get if you never question what OS you use.
Yeah no, that’s literally not it. It’s because Windows is the only user-friendly OS that they can install.
Nobody ever installs windows themselves
You’re focusing on the wrong part of my statement
He’s right, most people don’t install an OS. They use whatever it comes with.
Jesus Christ 🤦♂️
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Nope. Not true. Windows has an intuitive and easy to use GUI for everything. Linux depends on CLI for basic functions with commands that aren’t even the same across the various distros. It’s as simple as that.
@HughJanus windows is not user friendly. You are confusing familiarity with ease of use.
Most are familiar with it since its widely used as the first OS since school. Give it to a lifelong mac user and see how much they struggle. Even ones who are using windows for nearly a decade struggle as soon as they need to use anything more than office, chrome or the file explorer. They fear the control panel nearly as much as they would a terminal and i have to give detailed instruction on what to click
You people keep saying this but it’s simply not true. I used Windows for 20 years and never went into the CLI, which is basically a daily occurrence to complete basic tasks in Linux.
For example, today I went to download the new Simplex app. On Windows, download and run the .exe and it installs itself. Done.
On Linux, they only have a .deb version. So to install that on Fedora I have to install some other program, and the only way to install the program is from the CLI. Tried to do that. The first command I copied and pasted the first command into the CLI and…nothing happened. Not even an error message. Give up.
The end.
@HughJanus whos ‘you people’ here? My point was that just as terminal for linux is scary, many people find even the control panel in windows scary and hard to use. Your personal experience may vary but many issues you point to isnt linux specific.
Assuming you refer to simleX chat, I just grabbed the appimage from their github release page, marked it executable and ran it without a hitch. Took me 5-10 clicks and nearly the same as for Windows. Don’t have fedora RN but assume its the same.
whos ‘you people’ here?
“You people” who are delusional and incessantly lie about how “easy” things are.
My point was that just as terminal for linux is scary, many people find even the control panel in windows scary and hard to use.
This is not even remotely comparable. You don’t need the control panel to install software (a basic task), and even if you do need it for something, it’s fairly intuitive. You just click around until you find what you need. Using the CLI requires you to have a working knowledge of a fucking encyclopedia of gibberish commands.
Your personal experience may vary but many issues you point to isnt linux specific.
Yes. They are.
@HughJanus
Legitimately don’t remember the last time I *had* to use a terminal to install a program in linux, I pretty much just click to install everything using KDE’s Discover store, except for things I download off github which often come as appimages which are practically the same as windows executables in terms of ease of use
@vaidooryam@HughJanus completey glances over the solution for your precise problem and yet making strawman arguments of how tough linux is and calling others liars without providing any valid proof. End of our conversation. Stay classy.
LOL how exactly do you expect me to prove this? It’s just a case of simple observation and I’ve provided detailed examples. You just don’t like them.
Linux is not an operating system and pretending it is one is counter-productive. Take Ubuntu or Mint or SteamOS or whatever and call that Official Linux™ if you want, I guess. Or, we can actually promote those operating systems in their own right instead of calling them “flavor of Linux”
Most people don’t know how to install operating system, even if it’s just pressing next in the installer mostly. The reason Linux is not primary system is that it’s not preinstalled. It has a bit of chicken and egg problem with some support missing due to low user base, and base lowered by that soft missing but that would change in the instant if everybody suddenly bought PC with linux preinstalled.
Even the win mentioned with linux in gaming is basically just that. Linux preinstalled on steam deck.
They’re scared of installing a new operating system. It’s just so weird.
The issue isn’t an official Linux distribution, per se (and note: Canonical have wanted to be that for years with their Ubuntu).
The issue is that laptop and desktop retail machines come with Windows. And until that changes, Linux on the desktop will never see more traction.
There is probably only one real way this comes to fruition: a company, like Apple, that engineers their own hardware with full stack integration to their own Linux distribution — and the hardware has to be aesthetically pleasing, reasonably priced (unlike Apple), and with in-person support (a la Apple Store).
The closest to that we have, at least in the United States, is System76. But they do not engineer their systems. They basically cobble together all the parts that are known to work with the Linux kernel, toss them into an outsourced chassis, and sell them at what I would consider somewhat bloated prices.
That being said, I love what System 76 is doing with Pop!_OS, but the name sucks, the software versions will always be lagging behind unless using snap and/or flatpak, gaming on Linux is still an uphill battle despite Proton’s strides, and at the end of the day, the user will actually have to do something at some point on the command line.
What Linux desktop users need to embrace is that it is okay to not be the primary desktop operating system of the world. It is okay that it is relegated to geek enthusiasts, developers, and the like.
There really is nothing wrong with that.
There really is nothing wrong with that.
I don’t think it’s completely fine, because, as we see time and time again, Windows being the default, and so the largest player, allows developers, especially in the enterprise and education sectors, to be lazy and support only Windows for their applications. The expectation has been created that everyone has to own a Windows computer and that damages us, since it restricts our choices, for some people it can nullify entirely the effort they put into switching to Linux.
For example, in my country, to do the admission exam to university you need to install the SEB browser, which amounts to pretty much a Windows-only rootkit, now I wouldn’t enjoy putting that on my Linux system, but the laziness here is clear, they could have made a a live single-purpose Linux distro that boots up a locked down browser and checks that it hasn’t been tampered with when it runs, it didn’t have to be the only option, it could have been an additional option for privacy concious users, but why won’t they do it? Because it’s not trivial to build and the Linux market share is too small to care about and if you use it you are weird.To a certain extent it’s the fault of our institutions that don’t allow choice of OS most of the time, let alone forcing the use of Linux, if more would do the latter (because, let’s be honest, if they only let us choose they’d treat all other OSes as second class citizens), we might see companies developing more for Linux in turn.
That said, it’s not in such a bad situation and it can already be used without issue in many occasions.
If I could only count the number of articles that have made this argument before. Ugh. Nothing new to see here.
yesterday i woke up and didnt found the settings icon in the menu. i had to sudo apt the thing (ubuntu, maybe this is a garbage distro. would fedora or deb be more stable ? ) also why would i have to look up arch documentation for a problem i had with ubuntu ? people using windows just worry about… windows, not 90 flavours of the thing. nonetheless, windows has become bloated trash beyond win 7.
why would i have to look up arch documentation for a problem i had with ubuntu?
Because they’re all built on the same software for the most part.
I don’t really know what kind of issue you had, so I can’t say if the following would really work better for you, anyway my personal recommendation is Silverblue for (usually) fewer headaches
That’s Fedora, though. If they prefer debian distros, Fedora may not be for them. As a (very limited) frame of reference, I prefer debian distros and I love silverblue. It is now my daily driver. I both dislike and very much like the containerization of it all.
I hope you’ll overcome your love hate relationship and settle your differences.
sends hugIf they prefer debian distros
I want to suggest Vanilla OS, but until the new Orchid is released I’ll hold off from it, I thought it would be coming sooner by now, but I guess they still have a lot of work to do
Haha thanks!
Hugs back
I had gotten a used laptop with Win10Pro, and I only use Windows for work. I’ve always wanted to try Fedora, so I took this opportunity (I grabbed the Win10Pro key off of it beforehand, of course), and I’m very glad I did. Gentoo will be next, I think.
Vanilla looks very interesting! It looks like a very real prospect that I may be able to recommend to new users. Ubuntu’s Unity has caused several people to whom I’ve recommend it, to revert back to Windows. Maybe Vanilla will keep them on Linux. I actually stopped recommending Ubuntu because of Unity, and started recommending Mint to Windows users or Budgie to Mac users. I know it’s somewhat configurable, but the side app bar of Unity and the Windows 8 style app menu were among some of the reasons they disliked Ubuntu. They said that it felt “ancient”.
grabbed the Win10Pro key off
Oh that’s possible? I had no idea, well, not like I felt the need after discovering MAS on GitHub 👀
Good call on the change of recommendations imo, although I worry that those DEs might receive the Wayland treatment too late, that’s a pretty important aspect to me.
The “ancient” thing was just funny thoI use HBCD, grab the keys, and reboot into the Linux installation ISO.
I forgot about MAS!! Man, those scripts were so important when Vista just started losing its registration for kicks and giggles. I haven’t really gotten into Wayland, so I’m not familiar with it’s benefits yet, but know (just from reading comments) that’s they’re plentiful.
Good to know, thanks for the info!
MAS is the GOAT TBH- acronym overload
In my experience the only improvement I actually noticed on Wayland was finally being able to screenshare correctly distinct monitors and app windows, there’s definitely a whole lot of smaller things that got better with it though, as you say, so I think (if your hardware plays well with it) it is worth moving to
Silverblue
there we go, now we r getting somewhere.
You mean you have tried it before?
no but people kept recommending fedora (and debian). didnt know there were multiple versions of fedora. ubuntu doesn’t look as serious.
Ah I get it, it’s really solid so I don’t think you’d have regrets, plus you get up to date software!
Ubuntu is really just meh these days, it is still pretty reliable, but it doesn’t look like they’re really caring a lot about their users, just my outsider opinion, as I left it a few years ago now
i could really use a take such as yours. there necessarily should be a reason why u changed distros. now my doubts are getting confirmed
I did it for 3 reasons:
- hunting for PPAs, which was annoying
- older versions of software, especially for development, I used to try out new features a lot for things like PHP and other stuff (but it’s kind of a moot point now with things like Distrobox or Nix)
- upgrades to the latest major version often breaking because I first moved to the latest non-LTS and then, when it came out, to the newest LTS, contributed by the fact that the PPAs would break, since the devs behind them needed to push a new version for the last Ubuntu release
Today I still wouldn’t use it for their push of Snap, I just don’t dig it, I much prefer Flatpak for my apps
I literally don’t think the plethora of choices has anything to do with why Linux is not installed by the masses. The only reason is that Microsoft and Apple are huge market forces with the ability to advertise, make deals with other business partners, pre-install their operating systems onto hardware that’s sold, operate technical support services, and so on. They have completely flooded the market with their stuff.
Linux has these things, too, but nowhere in scale or scope, and with relative industry latecomers to sell it. If Linux were created 10-12 years sooner and companies like Suse, RH, Canonical, System76 were all formed earlier than they were I think we’d see a healthy amount of Linux out in the world, with maybe a few percent higher market share (which would be extremely massive).
Keep in mind that Apple, as a company, rebuilt itself truly not on the technical excellence of Macintosh, but by driving sales of iPods then iPhones.
Apple’s success came from Microsoft’s negligence. Too many people had Windows XP computers at home wrecked with toolbars and spyware and garbage.
And people gladly left for a walled garden platform that locked down everything and didn’t require them to administer their own systems.
The biggest success in the Linux world has been Chromebooks and Android, where Google administers the system for the user.
Most people don’t choose linux because they can’t administer their own system. A system that lets them administer however they want has no appeal to them. They instinctively know they can’t handle that responsibility. They need their hands held.
“There are 14 competing standards!”
“We should make a new one that has all the benefits of the others, and everyone can use that.”
“There are now 15 competing standards!”
Rinse and repeat.
This guy:
There are 100 competing distributions:
“Let’s add one more, one that’s standardized and designed to make it easy for users to start using Linux.”
There are now 101 competing distributions.
I have a solution to this I use. If asked I just tell people to use Kubuntu. You might pick a different distribution, I choose Kubuntu for a variety of reasons.
“What linux should I use?”
“Kubuntu”.
No other options given or discussed.
It’s my “official linux” even though I no longer use it personally.
Now you just have to do the same. Pick your own official linux that’s going to be the only one you tell people to use in real life.
Maybe in a few years they’ll decide to distro hop once they understand more, but right here and now they want one answer.
This is also the distro I tell others to use, it’s what I started on and I enjoy Linux now.
He’s wrong.
I use Windows because I have Windows software I need to use, whether for work or gaming, and I just want that shit to work with zero effort on my part.
