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Not every development team sees these issues as significant. Please fuck off, riling up a 3 year old PR is not a good look.
Social media has messed everything up. Look at all those new comments on a dead thread. People can’t help but get involved and are excited to hop on the hate train. It’s kinda gross.
I’m not denying the need to fix the language. I agree with that. I’m saying the response itself is troubling.
FWIW they didn’t merge it, they closed the PR without merging, link to line that still exists on master.
The recent comments are from the announcement of the ladybird browser project which is forked from some browser code from Serenity OS, I guess people are digging into who wrote the code.
Not arguing that the new comments on the PR are good/bad or anything, just a bit of context.
The line has been changed to be gender neutral 9 hours ago. Victory!
Also: https://exquisite.social/@thomholwerda/112717330526232080
And to build independent browser not sponsored by google is a soft of an ideological motivation. If only it is not a pure marketing lie. There are no technical reasons for being sponsored by Shopify but not by Google. I would say there is no much of an ideology either.
And other things about the project are also concerning me:
- It uses Qt for UI, while modern browsers can draw UI with their own engines. A redundant dependency which also will harm modularity and embeddablity.
- Modern browsers have complexity of operating systems. It’s just a waste of resources to build an independent browser from scratch, but not to make the engine reusable.
This is a poor choice.
The other things: It’s so independent (from google), but already got sponsorship and changed the landing page to a typical landing of a startup. This independence is populism. Just enough one for feeding their adepts with promises. I won’t be surprised of possible advertisement integrations made “for maintaining independence”.
NGMI.
additional transphobia https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/8046#issuecomment-860350155
Why are you posting on lemmy? Haven’t you heard about the devs?
This framing made me read the comment in the link as a transphobic joke (“ha ha I won’t accept your change of gender ie will misgender you”) which would have been a pretty smoking gun if left there, and in case anyone else makes the same incorrect interpretation I’d like to warn them that they’re talking about grammatical gender, in the PR.
I think it’s a stretch to call this transphobia; if anything it’s good ol’fashioned sexism, but a pretty tame one.
The
anonuser could be used by an advanced alien specie, trying to understand the technology underpinning operating systems in order to launch an attack against the humanity. Thus, the developer is specist against non human entities.No? Too extreme? Where do we draw the line between leaping to concussion and labeling people? Refusing to change a gendered pronoun to a gender agnostic one isn’t a great look. One can most certainly make an argument that it’s a sexist view of the landscape in favouring male users over others; but no where in the discourse that I could see did they attack transgenders, so it wouldn’t be fair to label the developers as transphobic. I think it’d be prudent to address the issue as they are, not leap to conclusions and apply labels.
It’s understandable to get offended at this, but really it could be a lot worse. Also probably we should separate the project from the developer, because with this logic, we shouldn’t even be using Lemmy, since the main devs are controversial to some people.
Not everyone here uses Lemmy.
…what? You’re on Lemmy. THIS is Lemmy. I don’t get what you mean. Or maybe you don’t get what you mean?
Go visit https://fedia.io and then tell them again that they’re on Lemmy.
Maybe he means lemmy.ml and lemmygrad perhaps? But even if you are on a different instance, you are still using the main dev’s fruit of their labor.
No, I’m using a completely different type of software. The communities on the three Tankie instances I actively block when they pop up.
Ahh yeah I’ve forgot about kbin and Mastodon. Is Lemmy federated well with your software?
Mbin runs fairly well, yes. The last major federation issues I saw were a quite a while back and were on Lemmy’s end, due to their own updates.
I know what Lemmy.ml is, but I don’t know what Lemmygrad is. It sounds like if Lemmy were a cold war era city in the soviet union.
It must be an allusion to Stalingrad and presumably the battle there where the red army beat the crap out of the nazis, so you’re not wrong.
Who are Lemmy’s main devs controversial to?
Those who aren’t Tankies.
I keep seeing this term “Tankies” on Lemmy, but I’ve only ever seen it on Lemmy. I can’t tell if you mean people who wear tank-tops, or people who drive tanks. Neither one makes sense given the context of this, or other threads I’ve seen the term in.
Starting to think it’s a slur of some kind, but I don’t see who it would be against.
It would’ve cost you less time to put that term into your address bar and let your favorite search engine take you to Wikipedia and other informative sources, than writing this comment and constantly wondering what that term means. It’s absolutely not a term related to Lemmy, it’s just that lemmy.ml, lemmygrad, hexbear and the Lemmy developers themselves are Tankies.
Tankie is a term that stems from the UK Communist Party (fringe political party) mocking some of its more extreme members that defended the USSR sending tanks in to quell civilian protests in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. And later, to mock those who defended Mao’s crackdowns.
Since then, the term has evolved to mean any westerner who proclaims to be left but defends the imperialist actions of Russia/their human rights abuses, despite them not even being remotely left wing anymore. To a lesser degree it’s also applied to China.
In short: a westerner who rails about how horrible and imperialist the west is, but falls silent or defends it when Russia or China do the same or worse.
They run lemmygrad and are dedicated communists, as well as having a very opinionated “bad words” filter that’s hard coded into the lemmy server software and not configurable without building it yourself.
Exsqueeze me? Where might one see this hard coded bad words filter?
It’s encoded as a regex which you can find here: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/blob/78702b59fd56f767f3d5612bfd60e294979f91f8/crates/utils/src/utils/slurs.rs#L74
It’s honestly not a terrible list, but there’s at least one entry in there that falls victim to the scunthorpe problem, and it sucks that it’s not something administrators can easily customize.
Edit: looking through the PRs it seems like they made the filter customizable at some point, so this is a little outdated. The whole communist thing still applies though.
AFAIK the devs are supporting communist ideologies, especially maoism and they like the USSR’s demolition of independence revolutions like the hungarian 1956 and the checzh 1968 uprising.
They also made a controversial statement about the Uyghur genocide too. I’m not sure about the specifics tho.
Ah fuck.
some people
Personal politics, what age do they live in? Gender neutral has been the norm for quite some time. Females are welcome to exist, both as users and as developers.
As a non-native speaker, I really have a lot of problems using a plural word as singular. When I read it, I always have to read twice to check whether one or more people are meant. I rather read and use “she/he” even with the additional typing.
“they” ist kein Pluralwort. “they” ist ein Pronomen der 3. Person Singular sowie der 3. Person Plural. Das ist genau so, wie “you” ein Pronomen der 2. Personal Singular und der 2. Person Plural ist.
“they” ist kein Pluralwort.
And yet the grammar attached with its use is plural and that’s super weird. “They goes to the store” is just wrong.
you don’t understand the language and thus everyone should comply with you? i’d rather read correct english than what you find more understandable
Is “He” not correct grammatically speaking?
Let’s be real here, I’ve seen every post about Lady Bird and every time someone comes in to make a huge nothing burger about this PR. Yall are just a gigantic mob out for blood for absolutely no reason.
Your concern should be whether or not the browser works, its not even finished ffs. If this were a released, absolutely 100% complete app, then sure! Go and be pessimistic about grammar. However I can garauntee you they have bigger obstacles to overcome.
You obviously understand English to a lesser degree than me. I nowhere wrote that I made demands to comply with me. Where on earth do you get that idea that offering a perspective is a demand?
then use “they”, do you speak exclusively with yourself? your linguistic choices affect others, just like others’ linguistic choices affect you (as you were noticing and complaining about)
then use “they”
After 30 years of education saying otherwise it is not so easy.
do you speak exclusively with yourself?
I don’t speak English with others at all. I’m not in an English speaking country.
your linguistic choices affect others
Having a hard time grasping completely new concepts is not a choice.
Some people don’t identify as either of those. And there already is a common word that can be used for either singular or plural, which is “you.”
And English is imprecise for “you” as well. For he/she/it grammar at least doesn’t change. Substitute that pronoun for they and suddenly the grammar switches to plural. That totally confuses me.
“They” can quite happily function as singular. I asked my friend about this and they gave me their opinion. They told me that they use “they” or “them” to discuss people when their biological sex is unimportant or unknown. I would like to ask them more but they have to leave. They tell me that they’ll be back later.
They (singular) say something. He/she/it says something. They (all) say something. You (all) say something. I say something. You (singular) say something. You’ll notice “he/she/it” seems to be the irregular outlier here. English is strange.
“He goes”. Correct.
“She goes.” Correct.
“It goes.” Correct.
“They goes.” Wrong. And that’s just confusing for people who never ever were taught that in any form of education. I know it’s an old construct and not a new innovation but for people like me it feels just off. It’s not malice on my part to act against different genders, I’m just explaining why that part of the English language is weird
It’s not wrong, it’s just generally offensive since colloquially “it” refers to objects rather than a individual.
And as it follows, “it” is used as a insulting term when people want to dehumanize something.
Also it’s “They go” and “I go”, perfectly serviceable for singular use.
“I goes”. Incorrect “They goes”. Incorrect
“I goes”. Incorrect “They goes”. Incorrect
You don’t understand that one is first person singular and the other is not? Is your basic English really so much worse than mine?
Yeah without the singular they your English is bad. Sucks for non native speakers but it’s how our language works.
Yeah - that’s probably all true. Most people seem to cope with “you singular” and “you plural” in English but struggle with “they/them singular” and “they/them plural”. I’m not sure why.
The issue is 3 years old, I honestly dont know why it is being dredged up again. I also dont know why any of this matters, use something else if you care about the dev beliefs some years ago.
The Ladybird browser, which is highly related to this project, just did a PR event yesterday. That’s why it’s coming up years later, right after people were alerted to the project and it got more scrutiny. I appreciate knowing about this, as opposed to not knowing about it. It gives me the chance to evaluate whether I want to dedicate energy into supporting a browser primarily being developed by a sexist who thinks not being a cis male == politics.
Primarily being developed by someone who was most likely a sexist, three years ago, and who is now being dogpiled by people who probably weren’t ever going to use his software anyway.
If anyone really cared about this, they should just fork the code and start their own inclusive version. Literally steal the asshat’s project out from under him. Instead, everyone is coming out of the woodwork to try and score asinine dunks on the dev’s shitty opinion.
For me personally, this is just the straw that broke the camel’s back. I’m not a fan of the languages it’s written in, its license, its immaturity, and that it’s mostly being developed by one person. Additional minor strike for communicating through discord. Now we learn that the most influential person on the project has some real bad vibes and it’s probably best to give this a pass as a whole.
In my eyes the whole selling point of the browser is being an independent underdog with a clean slate, but what’s the point if we’re starting with a list of IOUs for things that are already bad out of the gate.
Because trolls have nothing better to do.
Not allowed to call them “females” any more.
I must’ve missed that announcement at the last antifa meetup.
Buzzfeed made it a rule mate. Keep up
They live in the C++ age.
You joke but I realised I feel exactly the same about this as I do about the choice of C++, which is: deep sigh ok sure
What an odd thing to double down on
Seriously. Accepting the PR would have zero impact and take about 10 seconds and avoid all the drama.
They accepted one that adds gender neutral pronouns in more than one place instead lol
3 posts about… pronouns in the build log?
If you go through life looking for things to take offense, you will always be outraged.
If you go through life looking for things to take offense, you will always be outraged.
This is what I tell my sister. She got angry at me for hanging my hats on these little hooks that hang off of closet doors. I have many hats, and not much room. She got mad that the outside of my closet door had hats on it.
One doesn’t have to go looking, there’s lots of assholes who think it’s “apolitical” to assume that everyone working in software is a dude.
Bad example at the end though, loads of of people use “dude” as a gender neutral term though. But yeah I take your meaning about assuming men in dev.
Agree that dude transcends gender, bit the PR replaces “he” with “they”.
People who use “dude” as a gender neutral term should tell me how many dudes they’ve kissed.
an abrasive rejection to a polite change request
Does offense have to factor into it when judging a behavior as undesirable?
I was referring to OP, who decided today was the day to stir up a 3 year old PR on a small project run by a volunteer.
That’s not the way to gain allies.
Ah I see. Could have easily been all in one thread.
I only became aware of Ladybug recently from another post here so I found this PR informative and unfortunate even though it’s old. If this no longer represents their views and potential future behavior then why bring it up, else it’s not aged.
Sometimes it’s the only way to feel anything 🤬 awww it didn’t work.
