I feel like I’ve been kind of in the loop for most of the headlines regarding this confrontation. Yet somehow I can’t find it within myself to actually care about either side. It seems like both are lead by genocidal parties, hell bent on indoctrinating their populace into hating the other side. Yet at the same time people are able to discern which state is the good one. And some going so far as to believe that one state might even be right over the other.
So far from what I’ve read and heard, it seems that overall Isreal is just more successful militarily and is encroaching on Palestinian land, and is exhibiting control over some of it. Is that the reason why one might support Palestine? Is it the fact that Isreal has more direct power in the region and thus can easily execute its will a problematic issue for some? From what I can see, both sides have caused massive civilian casualties and neither side wants a two state solution, so neither of those reasons can be a contributing factor to side picking, right? That being said, I can’t find a reason for supporting Isreal, so does Palestine win out by default? But what of the people that support Isreal, do they do that purely because they’re an American ally? Is any of this side taking have anything to do with the insertion of Jews into the region? What is expected to be done outside of a two state solution or genocide by those taking sides?
I have a lot of questions, and I obviously don’t expect all of them to be answered in a single post. So maybe focusing on the elements you’re highly informed on would be helpful and then I can kind of piece together the details. Thank you in advance!
I think people just like to get mad about something.
This is as good of a thing as any to be mad about.
To everyone who takes offense to this: I’m not saying you don’t have reasons. I’m sure you do. Please don’t share them with me. I’m so far removed from the conflict and I have so many problems of my own that I cannot spare any thought for this war. My only sentiment on it is that I hope that innocent people stop getting killed needlessly. I don’t care what side they’re on, if they’re not intentionally part of the fighting, and they die as a result of the fighting, that’s the kind of person I’m talking about. With a special additional note of the same regarding children. Kids can’t really comprehend the reason for the fighting and death and therefore are incapable of “taking a side”, so they’re especially innocent in all of this.
In summary, stop killing people. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk
I can spot a bad faith question when I see one, and your comments confirm it.
I’m curious as to which side I was taking before I submitted this discussion. Because I think it’s quite clear that I simply thought this was just another battle in the middle east sparked by land and racial tensions, and despite one side being much better equipped for extermination than the other, it wasn’t particularly notable. My language doesn’t feel pro Hamas, maybe It could be seen as pro Israeli because of that though. But I feel like that’s exactly what everyone in this thread has been pointing out, that there aren’t just two sides, and people aren’t picking between Israel and Hamas (or even Palestine for that matter).
Heck I’m not even arguing with anyone here except you, so what do you think I could possibly be trying to achieve? Let me remind you the community we’re currently discussing this in is !outoftheloop@lemmy.world .
I’m sorry, Palestinians are lead by a genocidal party? Hamas does not lead Palestine.
You’re right, but they do lead the Gaza strip.
I was kind of under the impression that Hamas was a defacto ruling party in Gaza. Given their support (according to some in this thread) that Isreal has given to them previously to maintain Gaza, and their previous political standing in West Bank, as well as all the coverage surrounding the conflict. Perhaps I shouldn’t of over generalized by referring to Palestine. Because Gaza seems to be the only Palestinian state actually involved in this war. But then again, I’m also attempting to use the same language to describe the scenario as I see it as many of the media sources and supporters of either side do.
Would you say Hamas isn’t attempting to eradicate Israelis when convenient? Obviously they’re not as effective as Israel’s attempt to eradicate Gazans, but to me it seems like they want Israelis dead even more so than the Israelis want Gazans dead just due to the actions they have taken.
Would you say Hamas isn’t attempting to eradicate Israelis when convenient?
Hamas is a much more pragmatic organization than this. They were like that for a while, but stopped somewhere between 2000 and 2006. They also recently came out and said they’d lay down their arms and become a political party if a two-state solution is enforced. Now whether they mean it aside (I think they should be cautiously believed here) that’s not the rhetoric of someone going for an eradication campaign.
Check out this video of Michael Brooks succinctly explaining Israel/Palestine even before Oct 7.
There’s sort of 3 sides to the issue.
- A pro Israel side, which includes people that believe all of Palestinian land should also be only theirs as well as people that maybe don’t care about the land but care that Hamas is defeated and/or the Israeli hostages are saved
- Pro Hamas side: people that believe that Israel should be destroyed and Israelis killed, partly because of the damage that they have done to Palestinians
- Pro Palestinian side: Don’t want innocent Palestinians being bombed, starved or shot by Israel. Some also want a 2 state solutions implemented.
I don’t hear any real Pro Hamas people (since Hamas is very must a terrorist group), other than circumstantial (“Hamas is literally the only option Palestinians have aside the other side that is literally killing them”). Hamas basically wants to destroy Israel, which is what led to the October 7th attacks in which about 1,000 Israelis were killed. They felt that peace with Israel was not helping their goals, as Israel bombing Palestinians would help recruit more Hamas soldier with which to use to help destroy Israel.
The UN and many countries feel that despite Israel having the right to defend its citizens and attempt to infiltrate and destroy terrorists(Hamas), Israel is executing this plan in such a way that is unnecessarily killing thousands of innocent Palestinians(both through weapons but also starvation), about half of which are children.
A lot of the misinformation in regards to this topic are: “If you don’t support Israel you’re antisemitic”, “You’re either supporting Israel or you’re supporting Hamas”, “Palestinians overwhelming support Hamas”, “Israelis completely support what their government is doing”
I’m too lazy to source the above so obviously assume I’m lying/wrong (same with anybody else not posting any sources). You should read actual articles from reliable new sources, but hopefully the above gives you some information to understand what those articles are talking about.
people that believe that Israel should be destroyed and Israelis killed, partly because of the damage that they have done to Palestinians
Nobody important seriously believes this. Not even Hamas. Well “Israel should be destroyed” is a popular position, because that’s calling for an end to Israeli Apartheid. “Push them into the sea” rhetoric died in the 90s.
“Israelis completely support what their government is doing”
They do though. Specifically 80% of Israelis and 88% of Israeli Jews.
Mate, i have seen enough justification for 7/10 by calling every Israeli a legitimate target. And Hamas themselves called for the eradication of jews in their founding manifesto. Nowadays, that language isnt used on the new manifesto, but Hamas leaders (who just happened to sit comfortably in Qatar and Iran) have called for repetitions of 7/10, again, considering every israeli a valid target.
Mate, i have seen enough justification for 7/10 by calling every Israeli a legitimate target
That’s why I said nobody important.
Nowadays, that language isnt used on the new manifesto,
Uh yes exactly. Hamas radically changed their approach to the conflict in 2006, and then in 2017 updated their charter to reflect that.
Hamas leaders (who just happened to sit comfortably in Qatar and Iran) have called for repetitions of 7/10,
Yes.
again, considering every israeli a valid target.
No. They’ve actively denied that Hamas fighters were responsible for any civilian casualties, and claimed that any such cases are accidents. Now that’s obviously not true, but they definitely didn’t consider every Israeli a valid target.
Considering that most of the casualties were civilian, thats like believing the IDF when they say they dont consider every civilian a target. It is reqlly hard to believe any Hamas leader in that regard, once you see who was killed and how.
Considering that most of the casualties were civilian
66%, even including counting crossfire, the involvement of other less trained forces (including random Gazans who happened to enter through the hole Hamas opened) and Israeli friendly fire (the latter is not insignificant; there were multiple proven cases of Israel choosing to kill Hamas fighters along with hostages instead of letting them return to Gaza). Not denying the atrocities that Hamas actually committed, but given these factors 66% isn’t indicative of any deliberate targeting.
It is reqlly hard to believe any Hamas leader in that regard, once you see who was killed and how.
What I’m trying to say is: Hamas’s official stance is that Israeli civilians aren’t valid targets. If they do consider all Israeli civilians targets (which considering how pragmatic Hamas generally is as an organization would make absolutely no sense) they’re definitely not saying it out loud. They said they’ll repeat 7/10 against Israel, the political entity, not that they’d keep killing civilians, is what I’m saying.
I mean they kidnapped civilians and refuse to release them. This is an extreme form of violence against innocent people, even if you accept the claim that the killing of civilians was unintentional which I find extremely dubious.
A charitable interpretation is that they have an extremely callous disregard for civilian lives in their campaign. Uncharitably, we could make an argument that their behavior indicates a clear desire to kill Israeli civilians. Either way, their claims here are total nonsense and I think actually make their malice towards Israeli citizens more, not less clear. They know what happened on Oct 7th and lying about it demonstrates that they have no desire to avoid the atrocities committed in the future.
I mean they kidnapped civilians and refuse to release them.
This is a textbook case of don’t blame the player, blame the game. Whatever little of Gaza’s dignity Hamas will be able to preserve after the war will depend on the hostages. While it sucks for them it’d suck worse if after this is all over Israel starts “resettling” Gaza or continues their starvation campaign.
So, according to your numbers, 20-12 percent of israelis don’t support what the government is doing? Doesn’t sound like israelis completely supports what the government is doing in Palestine. Thats a majority sure, but there’s a not insignificant amount of people that don’t support what the government is doing in Palestine.
I don’t think anyone is trying to imply that all Israelis support what their government is doing, but 80% (including 88% of Israeli Jews, which are the main demographic we’re looking at here) is a very damning number. Related: I don’t have the total number for this one, but the number of Israeli Jews who believe Israel is using too little or an appropriate amount of firepower is 94%. Again not all of them, but these are pretty damning numbers and dispel the idea that there’s real domestic opposition to what’s going on in Gaza.
Maybe that’s my bias, but that seems to be a very… specific way of sorting sides. Mind if I rephrase that?
- Pro Israeli side, which includes people who care that the hostages be saved. Some also want a 2 state solutions implemented.
- Pro Israeli control of Palestinians side: people that believe any Palestinian autonomy will result in a repeat of the Oct. 7th massacre, partly because of the, well, Oct. 7th massacre.
- Pro Palestinian side, which includes people who believe Israel should be destroyed and Jews killed, as well as people who maybe don’t want want Jews killed but care that Israel is defeated and/or Palestinians are not bombed.
I’d say both phrasings are about equally accurate and objective.
Just in brief, ignoring some history and so on, Gaza has been under Israeli occupation for a while now, controlling essentially everything that goes in and out, including people. Hamas gained power there, and legit, the Israeli government has given resources to Hamas to keep them going, supposedly as an excuse to keep their thumb on the Palestinian population.
A lot of people supported the creation of a Jewish state coming out of WWII and the holocaust, but currently, and especially because of just how hard the Israeli military is going now, it’s becoming impossible to not see how much the Israeli government just wants to take control of all the land and wipe out the Palestinian people.
Of course, there’s more going on, and some people might disagree with my simplification, but I think this is as good of a simple explanation of at least my understanding trying to follow what’s been going on in the region since the early aughts.
Hot take: They are all raging cunts.
projection and lowkey racist lol, careful
Most people aren’t talking about the political parties but the civilians caught up in the middle.
Israel’s government and Hamas are both fucking awful.
Very few people actually support the genocide of Palestinians or the people of Israel.
But genocide is happening to one.
Shaun’s video on Palestine is the most rational take that I’ve heard so far.
I’d never heard of him before, but I ended up listening to him all day at work. He seems very rational and compassionate. I owe you one
Yeah this was the first video of his that I’ve seen, but I’ve also been going through his backlog. He does seem to have his head on straight.
I used to be more in the “Israel has a right defend itself after they were attacked” camp, but then there was continuous reporting about aid being blocked, and people being shot when trying to collect aid, and reporters being obviously targeted, and an apparently wholesale leveling of buildings… and then I saw Shaun’s video, and well that pretty much wrapped it all up.
I think it’s pretty clear now that Israel is using the attack as an excuse to just take over all of that territory, and they don’t care at all about killing everyone there.
I’ve been paying attention to this thing for close to 23 years.
When I came in, it was after a long period of time where the Palestinian government was sending suicide bombers. It must’ve been horrible to live through, but you can’t change minds by making their lives harder, and you’ve got to take responsibility for your own actions.
Shaun really won me over when early in the video he states that Israel being more powerful has more responsibility in the peace process. It’s not a revolutionary idea, but it was nice to hear.
Listening now. Thanks for sharing
I am by no means highly informed, but so far, I didn’t see a few things I think should be mentioned.
Both Israel’s government and Hamas are definitely bad guys who found stirring hate towards each other a convenient way of staying in power. After all, If you have the stongest rhetoric towards someone who wants to kill people of your country, of course those people will vote for you and you can get away with things you otherwise couldn’t.
There’s also another side which I haven’t seen explicitly mentioned and should be considered: surrounding islamic countries (who are surely not a homogeneous group). They are in a good position to help palestinian civilians, but don’t do very much for various reasons I know relatively little about.
They are in a good position to help palestinian civilians, but don’t do very much for various reasons I know relatively little about.
Taking in millions of refugees isn’t cheap or easy. Accepting large masses of Palestinians also tends to bring a bunch of Hamas terrorists that you suddenly need to deal with. Only Egypt and Israel border the Gaza strip, and the huge wall Egypt put down hasn’t always been there. Egypt has feared the extremism growing in the Gaza strip, especially Hamas forcing out other militant groups, for quite some time now.
Aiding Palestinian people fairly without also starting a conflict with Hamas is quite difficult, as Hamas has a tendency to loot and steal, making armed security a necessity. Even if a deal can be struck with Hamas, Israel committing war crimes against aid workers doesn’t really help either. What do you do if your truck full of food gets struck by an Israeli rocket? Shoot back? Declare war against Israel? I don’t think Egypt has the ability to fend off Israel, and I don’t think it’ll have many allies if its actions trigger a war, either.
They are in a good position to help palestinian civilians, but don’t do very much for various reasons I know relatively little about.
Palestine is under occupation. Every time anyone tries to help (like aid workers or even NATO), Israel attacks them. People say let them resettle in Egypt. They shouldn’t have to resettle, lose their homes, Egypt shouldn’t have to provide refugees services, etc. People always say, “Other Muslim countries should help them so they must not care.” False.
I’ll let others fill in the history of the rest of it. TLDR: Palestinian civilians are not all Hamas, but they are treated as such.
It can simultaneously be true that Palestinians should not be evicted from their homes and also that nearby countries (including Israel by the way) have an obligation to assist with the refugee crisis. There is no perfect solution to this crisis, and given the lack of collective consensus, each individual actor should be pursuing the least bad option available to them. I think for neighboring countries this includes letting in refugees at a minimum.
This whole thing is a major political problem that has been brewing pretty much since World War II. I’m by far not an expert so I might get some details wrong but I’ll try.
During the war, millions of Jews fled from the Nazis and the Allies were wondering what to do with all those refugees. One option was British-occupied Palestine. The reasoning was that it geographically coincided with ancient Isreael, the Jewish homeland. The problem is that it had been inhabited by Muslims for over 1400 years so obviously the Arab population wasn’t too happy about giving up the region their families had lived in for generations just because some western colonial power had decided to give it to some refugees.
The plan was to split Palestine into two states - Palestine and Israel - with Jerusalem as a neutral zone under control of the United Nations. Because of the unstable situation - including terrorist attacks against the British administration - this was never fully implemented. The state of Isreael was officially founded in 1948 but there was never any formal agreement on who controls which parts of the region. The Arabs got driven from their homes and only kept the West Bank and the Gaza Strip but were obviously never happy about that. While the general population would probably be okay with just being left in peace, there are radical groups like Hamas who want to take back what was taken from them by the British and Israel.
On the other hand, nobody who lives in Israel today was involved 80 years ago when the British decided on their plan. These people were born in Israel and have lived there all their lives. So in a way, both sides just want to keep their homes. There have been several proposals for how we could solve this, including an official two states solution that would regulate the borders (obviously not favored by Palestine), a single state solution (forcing two groups who have been fighting each other for 80 years could be tricky) and reverting everything the British decided and kicking out the Jewish population (obviously not favored by Israel). There just is no good solution and so the situation in the area is heating up more and more. From their own perspectives, both sides have good reasons for what they’re doing though the way they’re doing it is obviously not acceptable.
The state of Isreael was officially founded in 1948 but there was never any formal agreement on who controls which parts of the region. The Arabs got driven from their homes and only kept the West Bank and the Gaza Strip but were obviously never happy about that.
This is one place I just want to offer some correction:
There was a formal agreement between UN/West and the Jewish people who occupied the areas that were to become Israel. The British Mandate of Palestine had a sizeable Jewish population already which is why it was also favoured.
It was the Arab nations who completely disagreed and said “NO” to the partition plans. Under which a large portion of the southern half of Israel would become Palestine-Jordan. (Jordan was originally intended to be the Palestinian/muslim portion). The WestBank was accepted as Jordanian in this agreement, as well as Gaza ownership was by Egypt. Israel would originally honour those borders.
Once the British Mandated ended and Israel formed, All the surrounding Arab nations attacked Israel immediately, Calling for all Muslims within the Israel land to leave Israel and fight against it. Israel won this war annexing the entirety of Israel instead.
Israel would not actually take Gaza or the West Bank until later wars. They took West Bank from Jordan; Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt. They would later return Sinai to Egypt as part of Peace treaty, but Egypt did not want Gaza due their own history with the Palestinian’s of the region.
As for the Muslim’s who stayed in Israel after its forming? They’re citizens and have full vote/power/rights as every single other Israeli citizen. Since Israel is a democracy with a fairly secular government (even if it’s currently ran by right wing terrorists).
Thanks for the corrections. My knowledge about early Israel is fuzzy at best.
The situation is even more complicated) While the general population would probably be okay with just being left in peace, there are radical groups like Hamas who want to take back what was taken from them by the British and Israel.
As you said in your edit, the situation is extremely complicated, because it involved groups that are historically opposed for generations, if not centuries.
Ty for the brief historical perspective I’m sure it was a very shallow overview but it tied together a lot of the other stuff I’ve heard into a way that makes more sense.
real life lore has multiple videos around the entire Israel Palestine complex, this one for starters:
Thank you for the nice words. I just felt like with all the discussion of who did what in the last few years, people are forgetting why Israel and Palestine are fighting in the first place.
Of course there is a lot more to this. For example the fact that Jerusalem is considered a sacred place by three different major religions and so the question who controls it is not only political but also symbolic. It was literally the (official) reason for the crusades during the middle ages. In that way, a neutral Jerusalem might have actually been a good idea. Though of course we don’t know what other problems that would have caused.
A Neutral UN city not directly ran by Israel or Palestine would likely have settled a lot of tensions. Firstly, Israel couldn’t claim it their capital, which has been a major pain point for decades now. Something Trump further inflamed by moving the US Consulate to Israel in it.
If it were made a place where all religions of all type are allowed in all parts as a historical landmark, maybe there’d be a peaceful place where the three Bbrahamic religions could actually find common ground.
Instead they created a religious McGuffin to fight over.
People like taking sides, because it fits into any narrative.
You have Jews vs Muslims, White(not really) vs Brown, Western values vs Middle Eastern.
The progressives love Palestine because they are brown, Muslim and anti West/US and some because anti White.
The Nazis love Palestine because they are anti Jew. (although some Progressives seem pretty antisemitic nowadays too.)
The Conservatives love Israel because they are fighting Muslims and the middle east.
Moderates side more with Israel because the values align more than the theocratic Muslim ones and Israel is a good door into middle eastern affairs. But that requires Americans to think about stuff outside of the US, that’s not black and white, so there are not a lot.
The thing is, most of these categories aren’t actually that black and white.
Israel has taken in a lot of Arab Jews who fled persecution in their home countries. They are also allied with Arab nations like Saudi Arabia, Jordan and probably more. So the “white” part is not true.
The religions are mostly true, although there are Muslim-majority countries allied with Israel, so its not as clear cut. (Iran is kinda using Palestinians as an attack vector against Israel, and Jordan helped with shooting down Iranian drones)
The west vs middle east part is also a bit weird, since Arab nations are on Israel’s side. It’s more of a inter-middle-east conflict and the west is supporting Israels side.
Explain why many non zionists jews support Palestine. Also arab countries leaders are US puppets that’s why they support Israel but the entire populations are against Israel colonization
Buddy Zionist means believing Israel should be a state.
If you ask the four Jews who don’t believe that, of course they support Palestine.
And of course its the evil US pulling all the strings again. Why do some people base all their politics on “America Bad”?
Why people believe Us is evil? Because there is a ton of example of US illegal wars and helping overthrowing democratically elected leaders. Non zionist jews could be neutral if they didn’t believe in Palestinian struggles
The Nazis love Palestine because they are anti Jew. (although some Progressives seem pretty antisemitic nowadays too.)
Reactions by the far left on this issue seem to support horseshoe theory
Progressives generally don’t hate Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus or any religion or ethnicity in particular. They hate people who think it’s okay to harm innocents. Just happens that thinking it’s okay to harm innocents currently has a strong overlap with certain groups. Is that so hard to understand?
I’ll happily let you pray to whatever god(s) you like. If you want, you can do that right in my back yard. As long as we can agree that “Do not harm others” is kind of important. You know, that thing that is all over the Torah and the Bible. “Thou shalt not kill”, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” and all that?
No, progressives, leftists, however you want to call them do not want to overthrow western society, abolish conservative thoughts or anything like that. They just want to be left in fucking peace and believe that anyone who doesn’t harm others has a right to live their lives. Doesn’t matter if they are black, white, brown, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, straight, gay, cis, trans, Star Wars fans or Star Trek fans…
Oh and yes, we’re just as annoyed by the few very vocal Stalinist weirdos as you are. They do not represent the majority of left-leaning people.
Edit: some typos and grammar
I don’t like that theory. Democrats are on the spectrum of left and right. But if you are antidemocratic you are a whole different thing. And that way the communists and Nazis are the same. Its not really a horseshoe, just a separate bubble of extremists.
Edit: Democrats as in people who believe in democracy, not the party members.
since Arab nations are on Israel’s side
Are they? Pretty sure Ive only seen the opposite but Im not following the topic very closely
Not all Arab nations are united in their beliefs or how government / religion should be linked.
Saudi for example has absolutely no love for Iran. Saudi maybe a muslim Kingdom ran by Sultans. But Iran is a Theocracy ran by the Clergy and is far more hell bent on spreading their form of religion to even the other Muslim nations. Jordan for example is fairly secularly run Kingdom. Iran despises that too.
As for “Sides”. Israel has existing peace treaties and open relations now with several of it’s neighbouring muslim nations. Egypt and Israel have been allied for decades now. Egypt maintains a border wall and blockade of Gaza as well. Jordan and Israel have been fairly peaceful now for decades. And Lebanon frequently looks to Israel military support to quell Hezbollah. Up until Oct 7th, Saudi Arabia was also in negotiations with Israel to normalize relations towards a peace deal.
I mean, yes. Jordan shot down some of the Iranian drones that were headed for Israel. I think some states are more behind the scenes, because the population doesn’t like Jews, but the “monarchs” kinda see the writing on the wall. I mean Israel is a good ally to have in terms of military and economy.
Or Saudi Arabia. They have publicly stated that their AD systems shared information with Israel. Saudi Arabia really isn’t religious enough to care about Israel that much, at least not compared to more important goals that they can reach otherwise. Of course, they do fund various anti Israel groups, but not in any particularly heavy way that can be traced to them
Jordan shooting down drones that pass over their country doesn’t make them an ally of Israel. It just means they don’t like being caught in the middle of a war that others are fighting.
That sounds… weird. And ignores a lot of history behind why they are fighting. Do you have any sources for your claims or is that just your personal opinion?
Mostly just a personal explanation for why anyone cares. There a a lot of wars going on, many of them with more casualties. But for some reason this gets all the discourse.
Also I think the history is mostly irrelevant, in the sense that like .01% of people talking about it actually know it. In terms of why they are fighting it is somewhat relevant, but we should go too far back for justifications, only explanations. And for a solution, both sides need to look at the present and ignore history.
Oh and as for why people talk about this and not as much about many other wars:
- This is the continuation of a conflict that has been in western news for decades and has been flaring up every now and then.
- Israel and Palestine are geographically and in parts culturally close to Europe which makes them seem a lot more relevant to Europeans than what happens on the other side of the world.
- Israel is directly targeting civilians which is by all definitions a war crime
- Israel has traditionally been allied with the West but has always been controversial for the various reasons listed in all the other posts in this thread
- This is yet another conflict in an already unstable region (Syrian civil war since 2011, the Arab Spring in general, Iraq still hasn’t fully recovered from its war between 2003 and 2011, …)
- Israel has access to nuclear warheads, Iran may have some as well and is just one bad day away from fully engaging in the conflict on the Palestinian side
- The overall situation is very complex which means there is a lot to talk and argue about.
- This is stuff happening right now. People have been talking just as much about Ukraine and Syria and would have been talking more about many other conflicts if social media had been more present when they broke out.
Okay, that explains why you’re so far off the mark on some points. Framing progressives as “anti West” or even “anti White” is honestly insulting and sounds a lot like far right propaganda. Most left / progressive people I know that support Palestine do so because of a couple of reasons:
- Killing civilians is bad. While both sides have been guilty of that over the last few decades, Israel is currently taking it to a whole new level.
- Palestine has arguably the better claim to the region. Arabs have lived there from the 7th to the mid 20th century. On the other hand, Israel’s claim amounts to “It was ours in ancient times” and “The British said so during WW2”
- Israeli aggression comes from the government while Palestinian aggression comes mostly from Hamas, an extremist group who does not officially represent the country as a whole (yes, I know there are some members of Hamas in the government but their pseudo-military actions don’t seem to be officially sanctioned to the point where the president has urged them to adhere to the 1967 ceasefire since at least 2006)
I would argue that almost nobody involved in the overall discussion actually supports Hamas’ plan of eradicating all Jews from the area, not even the far right. Most people would be fine with a peaceful solution, be it two states or one. But because of the way Israel was founded (by a colonial power giving land that has belonged to Arabs for 1300 years to a bunch of refugees with no personal connection to the place), reaching a peaceful solution extremely hard if not impossible.
In conclusion: everybody sucks but at least right now, Israel sucks more.
Because everything is sports teams also virtue signalling
Nailed it. Nobody ever has ever actually cared about anything but themselves.
Israel responded with batshit overwhelming force to a terrorist attack by a contingent of Palestinian nationals and has comitted numerous war crimes against innocent civilians in the process.
Boy does that sound familiar
From the river of stars to the sea of galaxies, humanity will reign supreme.
Or something, inunno
