While rebutting another post here on Lemmy, I ran into this. This says exactly what I want to say.
I am not a friend of Biden’s Administration. I think they drug their feet over a variety of things ranging from holding Trump and his goons accountable for January 6th through rulemaking on issues like OTC Birth Control and abortion rights, and yes, I think he’s too quick to please big business. But then I remember what the alternative is, and … well, disappointed in Biden or not, I’m voting for him. Because my wife is a Black bisexual goth woman, four strikes under Team Pepe’s tent. And I have my own strikes for marrying her as a White dude, and respecting her right to not have kids since she doesn’t want them is another strike against me. And I care about my Non-Christian, Gay, Transgender, and Minority friends, and will never willingly subject them to Team Pepe.
Just vote for other people?
There is a struggle to understand that not everyone who isn’t a partisan of your rival party, systematically a member of your own party
when the bar is on the floor its easy to jump over it. Biden is also better than being boiled alive that doesn’t mean I am voting for him
Most of your grievances are things the POTUS has no unilateral authority over.
Not sure about his direct authority on drug classifications to enable OTC birth control. Also seems weird to focus on since this has been a hotly debated item for decades.
He has zero authority over abortion rights. The SCOTUS made this massive mess, and were enabled by Trumps appointees. This is trumps mess, and checks and balances explicitly prevents the POTUS from dictating this.
Trump prosecution is out of his hands. It’s Garland’s job. I’m not sure how much influence the POTUS can have here, but more to the point, the POTUS should be staying out of it, particularly since the plaintiff is his political rival. I don’t know what his authority is here in the technical sense, but it is appropriate to not have direct influence over the investigation.
Seems like there’s a lot of resentment towards Biden because of a general lack of understanding of the power structure of our government.
It’s telling that you left Gaza out of your comment. That is the #1 reason this president is facing a loss. If he would stop sending arms today, he would win in a landslide. You disingenuous shill. Edit: I was wrong to insult OP.
If he would stop sending arms today, he would win in a landslide.
… this the same American electorate in which under half of the Democratic Party is in favor of reducing aid to Israel?
It’s fucking insane how some people pretend that the US electorate agrees with all of their opinions, very conveniently.
The best time to completely cut off aid to Israel was 1998, the second best time was now.
I mean, I agree entirely, but “It would be both good policy and moral” is different from “This will definitely increase the support of the electorate towards the candidate, and overwhelmingly so at that!”
Personally what pisses me off is how we fund Israel’s single-payer healthcare program, but claim it would be wasteful spending to fund one of our own.
The US government will do literally anything, including funding universal healthcare for other countries, to avoid funding universal healthcare at home.
There’s a sick irony to it I’ve learned to enjoy, because the alternative is checking my medical bills.
Are you American? If so do you not have any connection to what’s going on in this country? A lot of representatives can’t go anywhere in public without being overwhelmed by protestors about this very issue.
Same energy as “Look how big Trump’s rallies are! There’s no way he could lose!”
Nice dodge there chief. I’m guessing either you’re not American or you don’t follow our politics too closely. And to be clear, I’m not a Trump fan. I don’t even consider myself a Democrat because I’m too far to the left to be on board with a lot of them.
How is it a dodge to point out that large protests do not necessarily signal majority support? Sorry that elementary-school level differentiation between “Looks bigger” and “Is bigger” is lost on you.
I’m an American and I follow politics very closely.
It was a dodge not answering whether you’re American. Where the hell are you getting your news if you don’t believe this is the main reason Biden is losing to Trump in a lot of states? The polls are pretty clear. And seeing some of the top Democrats flip (Pelosi was one I believe) on the Israel protests and/or Gaza is evidence enough for me.
I was replying to OPs points directly. They didnt mention Gaza at all. What the fuck are you on about?
But what is he doing, then? He could be taking a firm line against the genocide in Palestine, but instead he is giving public and material support to the perpetrators. He could be rallying the electorate by using the “bully pulpit” to pressure congress with popular policies the public wants. He doesn’t do that kind of thing, because they are antithetical to his neoliberal politics. He (and those around him) would rather lose to the right than concede anything to the working class.
Most people understand that the potus is largely a figurehead, but Biden isn’t even doing that right. Don’t keep blaming the electorate when the problem is with the shitty fucking leadership.
Don’t worry dem shills will keep doing exactly that, blaming the electorate.
Unpopular opinion but the simple fact is that you’re right. Turnout reflects enthusiasm and “status quo” and “you’ll be voting against the other worse guy” simply do not turn out voters.
I’m going to vote, I always vote, but I am deeply concerned about the Democrats’ electoral strategy. Trump promises to blow things up. He’s full of shit and his plans will make everything worse for a lot of people, including his own voters, but the promise of radical change in itself is enticing for a disaffected electorate.
The promise of more of the same is exactly the opposite of what motivates a disaffected electorate. The sometimes-voters will stay home if they aren’t given any reason to be enthusiastic.
Whole heartedly agree.
I know this is a reddit link which makes it bad but I don’t know where else there is such an easily accessible list: https://www.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/1abyvpa/the_complete_list_what_biden_has_done/
He’s not a saint and there’s a lot more I’d like him to do but for someone who has had a largely opposition Congress he’s done a lot.
Biden might be one of the better presidents of my lifetime
I gotchu fam here’s a politifact link.
Tl Dr for the lazy. Rough percentages that are liable to change. 27 percent of promises kept, 2 percent broken, 31 stalled by opposition, 30 in the works and 8 compromised.
That’s exactly it. That’s what the DNC tried to sell us on with Biden the first time around: a return to the status quo, despite the fact that our status quo is fucked and is killing us.
This time they’re trying to do what they did with Hilary back in '16: mock and shame us into voting. “He’s not Trump” truly is their only selling point.
Nothing is going to get better under these Democrats. They want to tell you that things will get worse for vulnerable groups if you don’t vote for them, but all that they are really doing is continuing to use the same social issues they’ve been using to divide to now control us. Things have already gotten worse for vulnerable groups under this administration.
Donald Trump is the best thing that ever happened to the DNC, and they don’t actually want him to go away. If he’s gone, who will their boogie-man be?
That’s common, there’s too many people who think the President can control gas prices or fix things by waving a magic wand…
It’s a fiction the Right pushes so that Republican get the thanks for when things go right and Democrats get the blame when things go wrong.
It’s a goddamn shame in what’s supposed to be a representative democracy that there are so many calls for those who supposedly should be the ones represented to change their views to conform with those who represent them and not the other way around.
But it’s power dynamics, innit? The Biden administration and their wealthy kind won’t be that harmed by a Trump administration, so they don’t have a lot of motivation to actually change anything. It’s those who stand to be horrifically harmed by Biden’s opponent who must swallow their morality and vote for monsters lest more harm come to them later on.
There are a lot of reasons things are the way they are - the fucked up way we elect a president, the fucked up way we count the votes, the fucked up way we apportion representatives - but the bottom line is that our government is broken and we’re not going to get actual representation out of it.
So unless progressives are going to move the red states en masse to actually change things, we need to get used to being an unrepresented minority, ruled by a different minority that has more land.
It’s a goddamn shame in what’s supposed to be a representative democracy that there are so many calls for those who supposedly should be the ones represented to change their views to conform with those who represent them and not the other way around.
Indeed there is. And I agree, we need changes to this system. But there are smart ways to do it, and there are dumb ways to do it. Allowing an authoratarian jerk in who will run roughshod over our rights and maybe even take away our vote entirely, causing untold pain to people you claim to support, is the dumbest and cruellest way of all. If you’re cool with that, you do you, but understand, I’m not going to be quiet about the choice you just made. It’s how we got Bush-43, and how we got Trump the first time around.
It’s those who stand to be horrifically harmed by Biden’s opponent who must swallow their morality and vote for monsters lest more harm come to them later on.
Biden isn’t a monster. Netanyahu is the monster slaughtering people in Gaza, and I’ve already written a whole missive on why Biden aids Israel while Netanyahu does genocide, so I won’t repeat it here. Biden IS squishy, and believe me, if I could get a more progressive candidate, I would take him or her in a heartbeat, but we’re not there yet. Not in a country where only 26% of the population willingly identifies themselves as Liberal and 74% says “no, not that.” I’m not saying we’ll never get there, but it takes hard work and dedication, like what Team Pepe has done to convert Team Red into itself. Surely, you folks on Team Green aren’t gonna let Team Pepe beat you at the ‘convert major party to our mirror’ game, are you? They have a rule over on Team Pepe: “Vote the Conservative in the Primary and the Republican in the General.” That rule works because they have leverage over even squishy Republicans that they don’t over Democrats. It works the same way over here. Biden is being pulled Left by angry voters, articulating that Netanyahu is risking support by attacking innocents unjustly. Pro-Tip: Trump’s voters want ALL the Muslims subjugated or slain, so he’ll face no such pressure. In fact, he’ll double down on supplying Israel because he knows that pisses you off and his main goal is to own the libs. So even by your ‘genocide’ argument, the only vote you have is Biden, to keep Trump out of office. Keep that in mind.
Edit: Brain Fart. Voting Biden won’t put Trump in office, thank god.
You’re making a lot of assumptions about my opinions and intended actions that just can’t be gleamed from a post kvetching about the sorry state the US finds itself in.
Maybe think about your own knee-jerk responses before you make up ones for others.
I’m just replying to your words, dude, and pointing out to anyone who may be swayed by your argument that your argument is flat out wrong and cruel to everyone who will suffer for a Trump victory in 2024. But I can see why you might not want to talk about that.
To everyone else: Remember that Trump’s campaign has admitted to leveraging dissatisfaction on the left to push them to sit out the election. They’re counting on this so they can steal close states like they did in 2016 with Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Mr. Albatross, there are two kinds of people that push the meme that you just can’t POSSIBLY vote for the genocidal monster of Joe Biden. One is the useful idiot that’s bought the bullshit being peddled by Russia and the Republicans. The other is the sorry sack of shit asshole that is actually pushing the bullshit made up by Russia and the Republicans.
Which are you?
Not once did I say anything about who people should vote for. The only sentence I used that talked about voting was saying people will vote for Biden.
You’re making up opinions so you can argue against them. Isn’t there a phrase for that?
Well, to be fair, I actually didn’t say you were saying not to vote for Biden until my very last comment. My first comment to you attacked the foundation of your argument, that you must vote for a monster to avoid harm coming to somebody else. Biden isn’t a monster. And I explained why he isn’t. And I explained that even with your ‘concern’ over what Biden has or hasn’t done RE: Israel, there is still only one choice for President, and that’s Biden.
But if we’re going to start accusing each other of dishonest debate tactics…what might it be called when somebody has concerns about how things are going, who thinks that both sides are equally bad, and who reacts to any criticism with semi-polite attacks on the ‘tone’ of the argument in order to try to make a person with an argument they don’t like look bad. So if we’re going to play this game, you might want to be careful with the stones in your glass house, buddy. ;)
Why not answer my point that Biden isn’t a monster, eh?
Democratic strategists, liberal pundits are making a living off doubting President Joe Biden’s viability in the 2024 presidential election. Why?
Because they need it to be a horse race to get keep people’s attention. They write those things because they get clicks and views and comments.
Notice how they’re not writing about how our system is failing everyone by being this way. That’s because they like the system this way because it keeps them on top.
If you think the system is failing us now, you must have been asleep from 2017 through 2020, especially for the part where unmarked, literally secret as in unknown, police came in and abducted people protesting the murder of a Black dude, and beat the shit out of them before releasing them. The system REALLY failed us then.
I get it. You think the Democrats don’t represent your issues in the Congress. I don’t agree with that, as a good half of the achievements listed here benefit the little guy in one way or another, but yeah. Biden answers to the moneyed class, and that is bipartisan. But you only get 26 out of 100 people in the room to flat out come out and say “Yeah, I’m with that guy,” pointing to you. In the polls, you might net another 25 people, and 49 people vote for the R in this accursed D and R duopoly we call our government. But pay attention to those numbers. You can’t afford to lose a lot of people. If Jill Stein picks off 3 of your 51 people, it’s 49 Trump, 48 Biden, 3 Stein, and all 51 of the anti-Trump voters suffer with Trump. Those are the rules the game is played by.
As I said to the other person arguing that it’s wrong to expect people to vote for people who don’t give them exactly what they want, I agree. We need better choices. But there are smart ways to go about doing this, and dumb ways to go about doing it. And allowing the authoritarian jerk in isn’t just a dumb way to go about doing it. It’s a dumb and cruel way. And understand if you’re a White Liberal choosing to vote Third Party or stay home and not vote Joe Biden the Genocidal Monster: you are benefiting from your White Privilege. You, like me, can keep your head down and pretend to be a Loyal Member of the Race, a Good American who pays your taxes and salutes the flag. You can scrub your Social Media posts and hide behind your anonymity on places like Lemmy, and go about your life. You will not be the first put into the cages by the Trump ICE. You will not be the first rounded up and deported to a foreign land with no citizenship. You will not be the first detained by the military during protests. Many, many people will pay the price for your privilege of voting third party or staying home because you won’t vote for no ‘genocider’. But remember two things First, you will have brought the genocide you say you oppose onto American shores. Second, once they are done with the migrants, the transgender people, the gays, the ‘sinful’ women protesting their rights to get a safe abortion, and so on, there’ll be nobody left to protect you when they turn their attention to you.
Again. Biden ain’t no bed of roses. But one of two people will win in 2024, just like one of two people would win in 2020, and one of two people would win in 2016. I consider you all who voted Stein or Johnson in 2016 or stayed home in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania to be responsible for what Trump did in 2017 through 2020, and if Trump wins in 2024, I’ll hold you all accountable for what happens in 2025 and beyond.
tl;dr - The system is broken but we still have to pretend it isn’t because otherwise its brokenness will allow terrible things to happen and the people who do those things will face no repercussions.
the people who do those things will face no repercussion
What do y’all think is going to happen when Trump wins?
tl;dr - The system is broken but we still have to pretend it isn’t because otherwise its brokenness will allow terrible things to happen and the people who do those things will face no repercussions.
No, you can either use the broken system and try to minimize the damage done (by voting for Biden) or you can stomp your feet and refuse to use the system by not voting, or voting 3rd party, and in doing so allowing Trump to get reelected which will do great harm to you and everyone else who isn’t named Trump. It’s really a simple choice. Meanwhile, work to change the system. Join your local political party and support progressive candidates who also want to change the system. Hell, run for local office yourself and fight to change the system.
You have a an angry bear charging at you your family and there’s no where to run. All you have is a dull knife. Do you try and fight off the bear or do you throw up your hands and scream it’s not fair while the bear kills your family?
Nowhere in my post did I say anything about voting.
Just keep pretending that this is a valid and legitimate government just like all the other centrists.
Fuck me for wanting something other than a dull knife to protect my family, right?
you are benefiting from your White Privilege
This is no longer effective rhetoric in 2024
if Trump wins in 2024, I’ll hold you all accountable for what happens in 2025 and beyond
Why should anyone care about you or your opinions? You don’t have the power to “hold” anyone “accountable”. So don’t pretend that you do
The working class deserves Medicare for All as a right, universal housing as a right, and living wages as a right. The working class has no interest in seeing its money sent to fund genocide in Gaza or a seemingly endless war in Ukraine against Russian aggression.
Unfortunately Biden does not represent the working class, he represents the ruling class, as does Trump. The working class is disillusioned with American bourgeois democracy and their upcoming nonparticipation in the presidential election could quite possibly result in another Trump victory. If that occurs then it will purely be the fault of Biden and the Democratic Party
you think the system is failing us now, you must have been asleep from 2017 through 2020, especially for the part where unmarked, literally secret as in unknown, police came in and abducted people protesting the murder of a Black dude, and beat the shit out of them before releasing them. The system REALLY failed us then.
Straw man argument, those police are not part of the executive branch, nor were they punished or prohibited from doing so again by the new executive.
get it. You think the Democrats don’t represent your issues in the Congress. I don’t agree with that, as a good half of the achievements listed here benefit the little guy in one way or another, but yeah. Biden answers to the moneyed class, and that is bipartisan. But you only get 26 out of 100 people in the room to flat out come out and say “Yeah, I’m with that guy,” pointing to you. In the polls, you might net another 25 people, and 49 people vote for the R in this accursed D and R duopoly we call our government. But pay attention to those numbers. You can’t afford to lose a lot of people. If Jill Stein picks off 3 of your 51 people, it’s 49 Trump, 48 Biden, 3 Stein, and all 51 of the anti-Trump voters suffer with Trump. Those are the rules the game is played by.
I think this is ignoring op’s main point… That the inherent problems that are causing the vast majority of our problems have gone largely unaddressed by both the democratic and Republican party. COVID marked the largest wealth transfer from the middle and lower class to the rich in our nation’s history, and we weren’t doing so great before that. So unless Biden is hell bent on a very progressive tax scheme that would transfer more of that hoarded money back into the system… I would hesitate to really claim he’s doing anything meaningful.
As I said to the other person arguing that it’s wrong to expect people to vote for people who don’t give them exactly what they want, I agree. We need better choices. But there are smart ways to go about doing this, and dumb ways to go about doing it.
You are conflating someone wanting more choices, or wantinf someone like Joe Biden to change his stance/policy based on what the vast majority of his voters want.
The complaint isn’t that Joe Biden isn’t exactly what I want, it’s that every time someone lays valid criticism at his feet and army of simps comes out to defend him with comparisons to trump.
And allowing the authoritarian jerk in isn’t just a dumb way to go about doing it. It’s a dumb and cruel way. And understand if you’re a White Liberal choosing to vote Third Party or stay home and not vote Joe Biden the Genocidal Monster: you are benefiting from your White Privilege.
Again, op didn’t say that he was going to vote third party, he just made valid complaints. In stead of saying, well yeah, we should probably change our position on that, you equated his complaint to racism.
You, like me, can keep your head down and pretend to be a Loyal Member of the Race, a Good American who pays your taxes and salutes the flag. You can scrub your Social Media posts and hide behind your anonymity on places like Lemmy, and go about your life. You will not be the first put into the cages by the Trump ICE. You will not be the first rounded up and deported to a foreign land with no citizenship. You will not be the first detained by the military during protests. Many, many people will pay the price for your privilege of voting third party or staying home because you won’t vote for no ‘genocider’.
Again, a strawman argument, mixed with some unprompted race baiting. I for one am not white, and have several complaints with Joe Biden and his presidency.
Again. Biden ain’t no bed of roses.
Which is inherently the problem. If progressive voters are staying at home, it’s not the fault of the voter. It’s the fault of the democratic party for claiming a geriatric center right is the best the party has to offer.
This is like blaming the progressive party for Hillary loosing, despite polling worse than Bernie in swing states. And despite her ignoring Michigan on the campaign trail.
This is why Democrats loose elections, because they would rather loose running a center right than win with an actual left leaning candidate.
My vote is inconsequential, living in a deep red state and what have you. But, I’m not mystified why people would stay home or vote third party. It’s upsetting, but my discontent is largely aimed at the party who refuses to change based on their constituents wants/needs. That when I have complaints about their neoliberal economics, or their participation in an ethnic cleansing, I get told by some white liberal that Im just “benefitting from my (non-existent)white privilege”.
Straw man argument, those police are not part of the executive branch, nor were they punished or prohibited from doing so again by the new executive.
The police I was speaking of with the line 'unmarked, literally secret as in unknown, police came in and abducted people protesting the murder of a Black dude` referred to the Federal agents that abducted and abused people in Seattle protesting the police you are mentioning murdering a Black dude. Before you throw an ad-hominem masquerading as an accusation of logical fallacy, maybe try reading the entire damn sentence and understanding what it says?
The complaint isn’t that Joe Biden isn’t exactly what I want, it’s that every time someone lays valid criticism at his feet and army of simps comes out to defend him with comparisons to trump.
Because you have one of two options, Biden or Trump, in the upcoming election, and if Biden doesn’t win, Trump will, and my argument is that will be WORSE. If you’re REALLY interested in holding Biden accountable, you should be turning out in EVERY election, and voting the progressive in the primary, and the Democrat in the general. But know it’s an uphill battle. Only 26 of America can be cajoled into labelling themselves a Liberal, let alone a Progressive, and 74% of America, when asked what they are, pick Moderate or Conservative. I’ll come back to that in a bit.
Again, a strawman argument, mixed with some unprompted race baiting. I for one am not white, and have several complaints with Joe Biden and his presidency.
To borrow Biden’s phrasing for this, what a load of malarkey. Again, try reading the whole thing. If you’re not White, not only was this not directed at you, if you let Trump get into office, you just committed an own-goal. Then again, you can be anything you want on the Internet, where the Men are Men, the Women are Men, the Children are FBI Agents, and nobody, and I mean nobody knows I’m a cat, so it’s not like a White Conservative can pretend to be a Black Liberal disillusioned by Biden who will stay home. I mean, I am not saying you’re that guy, but that guy IS out there and so it’s my job to tell you if you’re a minority that has run into that ‘Black Liberal disillusioned by Biden’ that if you do the stupid thing and stay home or vote Third Party in the General, Trump’s telling you in his own words that he’ll be retribution against you for all the times you inconvenienced a White dude…
Which is inherently the problem. If progressive voters are staying at home, it’s not the fault of the voter. It’s the fault of the democratic party for claiming a geriatric center right is the best the party has to offer.
And here is where I come back to the ratio of Lefties vs. Righties. You can’t convince more than 26% of people to say they are liberals. Don’t we all get a say, including the ~25% of us who will vote a Democrat in but don’t think we’re Liberals? And don’t forget: that’s 26% who say they are Liberals, not Progressives. So even people who share the same label with you may not agree with all your priorities. The United States functions on a consensus building system. You have GOT to convince a large number of people you’re right in order to build the voter coalition that gets you elected. And that means Biden gets to walk tightropes between the various constituencies that got him into office.
Nobody is saying you MUST go vote for Biden. Nobody’s holding a gun to your head and forcing you to hit that button for Biden. Stay home and don’t vote or vote for Jill Stein. That’s your right as an American! Gawd bless 'murica fuck yeah! But what you don’t have a right to do is announce that choice, or even hint of that choice, without somebody like me pulling up and pointing out the glaring flaw in your plan. It’s not a good plan. It’s a STUPID plan and you are STUPID for coming up with it. The good plan is to start RIGHT FUCKING NOW and put your money and your body where your mouth is and support progressives across your state in Primary elections, and have conversations with the 40% of Americans who don’t like labels like ‘Liberal’ or ‘Conservative’ why they should like your label and convince them that your answers really ARE the right answers and that they should vote with your guy or gal despite the big money moderate squishy dem saying they aren’t. It works! Look at Ocasio-Cortez! TYT gets this, and they understand why Team Blue is the only answer. Team Red made it clear that ‘Voting for the perfect candidate in the closest Major Party Primary, then voting for the winner of that Primary in the General, and keeping the heat on the winner’ WORKS. That’s how they went from Corporatist Party 2 to Corporatist Party 2 with engaged base to Team Pepe in a matter of 20 years. You should have started that playbook back in 2000 as well, but like they say…the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, and the second best time is RIGHT NOW.
Start by holding your nose and voting Biden, because Trump
willHAS destroyed everything you care for and promises to double down if he wins in November.The police I was speaking of with the line 'unmarked, literally secret as in unknown, police came in and abducted people protesting the murder of a Black dude` referred to the Federal agents that abducted and abused people in Seattle protesting the police you are mentioning murdering a Black dude. Before you throw an ad-hominem masquerading as an accusation of logical fallacy, maybe try reading the entire damn sentence and understanding what it says?
And with what authority can presidents order federal agents to secretly arrest US citizens…? My point still stands. The president is not in charge of federal officers working the streets, Trump had nothing to do with that, they were just doing cop shit, they are still doing cop shit.
Because you have one of two options, Biden or Trump, in the upcoming election, and if Biden doesn’t win, Trump will, and my argument is that will be WORSE.
No shit. That doesn’t mean I have to pretend the old man is a decent person or president. If you want progressive changes you have to be willing to share your discontent. If the old man thinks everyone is happy with his ethnic cleansing, why would he stop?
If you’re REALLY interested in holding Biden accountable, you should be turning out in EVERY election, and voting the progressive in the primary, and the Democrat in the general.
Lol, I’m willing to bet I’ve been voting for longer than you’ve been an adult. And like I said, it doesn’t really matter who I vote for in my locality, my state literally doesn’t have a Democrat in anything higher than the city office.
To borrow Biden’s phrasing for this, what a load of malarkey. Again, try reading the whole thing. If you’re not White, not only was this not directed at you, if you let Trump get into office, you just committed an own-goal. Then again, you can be anything you want on the Internet, where the Men are Men, the Women are Men, the Children are FBI Agents, and nobody, and I mean nobody knows I’m a cat, so it’s not like a White Conservative can pretend to be a Black Liberal disillusioned by Biden who will stay home.
Oh, I’m sorry I didn’t know that the people of color could not criticize the president without being a race betrayer…
I mean, I am not saying you’re that guy, but that guy IS out there and so it’s my job to tell you if you’re a minority that has run into that ‘Black Liberal disillusioned by Biden’ that if you do the stupid thing and stay home or vote Third Party in the General, Trump’s telling you in his own words that he’ll be retribution against you for all the times you inconvenienced a White dude…
Lol, I’m not black either. Pretty typical of white liberals to only think in a dichotomy of just black and white, and primarily only around election season…
You do understand that you’ve done nothing but prove my point right? I didn’t say I wouldn’t vote for the guy, I just said we should be able to criticize him without people like you implying it is racist to do so.
You can’t convince more than 26% of people to say they are liberals. Don’t we all get a say, including the ~25% of us who will vote a Democrat in but don’t think we’re Liberals? And don’t forget: that’s 26% who say they are Liberals, not Progressives.
A single study that only details how people feel about loaded political definitions is hardly an argument. Democrats overwhelmingly approve of increasing taxes on the wealthy, of reacting to our rapid climate change, to not involving ourselves with a genocide, and to policies like Medicare for all.
Americans are just overwhelmingly undereducated when it comes to political theory and language.
Nobody is saying you MUST go vote for Biden. Nobody’s holding a gun to your head and forcing you to hit that button for Biden. Stay home and don’t vote or vote for Jill Stein.
Lol, what have you been doing all over this thread? All I did was criticize the man and you essentially called me a race betrayer, and simultaneously doubted my ethnicity…
The good plan is to start RIGHT FUCKING NOW and put your money and your body where your mouth is and support progressives across your state in Primary elections, and have conversations with the 40% of Americans who don’t like labels like ‘Liberal’ or ‘Conservative’ why they should like your label and convince them that your answers really ARE the right answers and that they should vote with your guy or gal despite the big money moderate squishy dem saying they aren’t.
Lol, you really took that study as a literal reflection of American demographics… Did you ever think that maybe people don’t like labeling themselves?
Also, I’ve been involved in organizing in local politics for nearly two decades now. Mostly just working with NGO once the democratic party died in the state, but that happened fairly recently.
Again, my entire point was that progressives should be able lay legitimate criticism towards the president without being lectured too about party loyalty. And that it is not an accomplishment to only be considered a decent president when compared to quite possibly the worst president in the history of the country.
You response was to become a petulant little child, who was so self righteous they thought they could whitesplain racial politics to a person on color. Bravo.
On nearly every single issue, not only is he “better than Trump,” he’s actually good. On the environment? Actual progress in the form of a massive infrastructure bill that invests in green energy sources and tamping down on pollution. On education? He’s made student loan forgiveness a central tenet of his policy agenda. On the economy? He’s gotten inflation under control and the economy is actually doing great now.
The elephant in the room is Israel and Palestine, of course, but I wish people would pause and think before knee-jerk reacting to… not even his policies there, just headlines about his policies.
The fact of the matter is that the Middle East is a fucking mess and Israel is currently run by a government hell-bent on making it ten times worse, but Israel actually falling and the conflict overtaking the entire region would be a global catastrophe. Biden is doing what he can to pressure Netanyahu over the insane and genocidal treatment of Palestinians while not giving Iran and others the sense that they have free rein to invade. (And for FUCK’S sake, can we stop pretending Iran is suddenly the good guys? They’re supplying arms to Russia.)
This is a nuanced, complex, and fragile situation, and like it or not, Biden is exactly the right kind of person for the presidency at a time like this. Not only that, Trump would make it ten thousand times worse on purpose, because it would please Putin to see Russia’s influence in the Middle East overtake that of the United States.
There is literally only one sane choice on the ballot this year.
I agree with your first two paragraphs, but disagree with you minimizing the conflict with the rest. The Israel Palestine conflict isn’t a mess because it’s in the Middle East or ancient tribal grudges or religion or any of that. It’s because one group wanted another group’s land and so they decided to take it even though people already lived there. And now a genocide is happening. Same thing happened in the US, Canada, Australia, it’s basic settler colonialism, but happening recently enough that we can try to stop it this time. He’s acting way too slow. It’s a hard line for a lot of people, and for good reason. That’s the biggest crime you can do basically.
It’s one of the simplest situations in the world right now. And Biden hasn’t done anything about it but words and some small aid towards Palestinians. He needs to start taking actual action to stop the killing and start denying weapons to Israel, censuring them in the UN, using sanctions, things like that, that they’d be doing for any other country, like Russia. Netanyahu is making Biden look very weak. Iran has no reason to invade, that’s a silly worry. There’s no evidence that would happen. And Israel can defend itself with all the weapons they already have. The only reason Biden is acting slow is because he’s a self-professed Zionist and Israel Stan, and has been his whole life.
And Iran isn’t the “good guys” but that also doesn’t mean they’re the “bad guys” for retaliating when they’re attacked, that just invites other nations to keep doing that. Same excuse we give for helping Ukraine stop Russia. International law is there for a reason. The US has done plenty of horrible stuff to all of South America, that shouldn’t give them the freedom to start killing our officials or attacking near or at embassies. In this situation, we’re the ones defending the bad guys trying to ravage this conflict, which is Israel.
But on all other topics, Biden is good. But this is just an important one for a lot of people. This is the most we’ve been involved in causing ethnic cleansing since manifest destiny and the Native Americans. We have the chance to at least not enable a genocide and ethnic cleansing campaign from a country that we directly supply the weapons for, and we’re blowing it.
Your analysis of the Middle East completely disregards religion?? AND the history of conflict between the various powers?
…you sure you’re not over simplifying it?
Religion is used as an excuse now, but revisionist Zionism was actually originally a very secular movement. Now it’s one post of the Zionist tent but still not the only one. In the same way that religion in the US is often just a means to end to gain voters and power, the same is true in Israel, but to gain land.
And there are conflicts between the various powers involved, it’s how Israel succeeded to even become an apartheid state, Britain and France really fucked this situation up good, for example, but it all still comes down to a population trying to displace another population. Usually everything other argument is put up to obfuscate this fact. I’m just trying to cut through brass tacks (is that right? Just realized I’ve never used this phrase lol). Of course I’m simplifying out as well, and there’s a history to learn about it all, but people often use it as an excuse to dismiss because it’s too “complicated”. It is, but not as much as people think, is all I’m basically saying.
You’re getting down to brass tacks.
That was it 😅 Thanks lol
So obviously I don’t want to see the massacre of the Israelis any more than the Palestinians, but if “Israel fell” why would the conflict overtake the whole region? Israel’s existence, and constant poking of the hornets nests, is the catalyst for instability in the region. If it went away, wouldn’t there be relative peace over there? I’m not advocating for it… Just a thought experiment.
Na, Islam does a fine job of creating horrors while fighting itself. Like using children to clear minefields, for example.
https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/iran-iraq-war-child-soldiers-mines/
A couple of reasons…
First, because any such fall would be slooooooooow. Israel wouldn’t fall quickly, it would take a long time and would be absolutely catastrophic for everyone on all sides of the conflict, because they would take a lot of Iran and others with them.
Second, because it would reduce western, secular influence in the region considerably, while massively increasing Russia’s influence. Russia doesn’t give a shit about stability and quality of life in the region, they just want vassal states from which to work to expand. Russia doesn’t think any country that isn’t Russia should exist, especially near them.
Western influence in the region has been a curse on the Middle East, and most other places for that matter.
THANK YOU. This is what I was wanting to say.
The Middle East is a mess. Israel is hated by literally everyone around them, and I guarantee you that Russia is waiting in the wings for us to do the stupid thing and stop backing Israel. It would solidify Russia’s ties with Iran, weaken America’s stance in the Middle East, and make us look bad internationally. I guaranfuckingtee you that if Israel gets glassed by its numerous opponents in the Middle East because America held up aid over Gaza, that shit will be spun WORLD WIDE as America giving in to Antisemitism, which will be hung STRAIGHT on the Global Left’s shoulders. It’s fucking transparent. And calling Biden a genocidal Zionist just plays RIGHT into Russia and the Global Right’s agenda. Again, if you’re saying that bullshit, you’re either part of the Right-Wing attack on the Left, or you are a useful idiot being leveraged by the Global Right as a weapon to hit the Left with.
Oh, if I only had more Upvotes to give you, kescusay. :)
I guaranfuckingtee you that if Israel gets glassed by its numerous opponents in the Middle East because America held up aid over Gaza.
I don’t see how america holding up aid will instantly result in Israel getting glassed. It should be theoretically feasible to stop aid to Israel unless a) Israel stops its murderous campaign in Gaza or b) Israel comes under attack from a non Palestinian country. Unless Israel will fall within a few days, the US should be able to back them in case of an attack even though aid was previously being held back.
I’m a little confused, I didn’t realize that US stop supporting Israel would make them look weak. It would make them look strong in my books, especially if all the money is used for Ukraine.
As someone not from a western country, people always hated US using their military to police the globe.
Edit:
The situation is like the strong boyfriend defending their crazy partner. They look weak for bending over backwards for craziness.
Israel is hated by literally everyone around them…
Not to mention that Netanyahu staying in power (similarly to what will happen with Trump) is the only thing keeping him out of dealing with legal accountability. He can’t afford to lose any power.
I just like to think that we’re currently playing the Weimar Germany game. Let Trump win and you’ll have given the Republicans decades of power if not more. They’ve been planning for years to control the government through the supreme court, you think this is the worst they can do?
For those wanting acceleration towards collapse, that’s not guaranteed, and will cause many deaths in the process if it does, and there probably still won’t be any guarantee or high likelihood of some sorta takeover by the proletariat or what have you. Seeing as how most of the militant groups in the US are likely to be right wing, all you’ll have is a right wing take over after a collapse.
There is literally only one sane choice on the ballot this year.
Which is the real problem, has been a problem since before I could vote, and is a problem that cannot be fixed.
I think it’s possible. Generally, some form of ranked choice is happening in democratic strongholds. Shut out the fascists, and you get a broader range of Democrats.
I actually think it can be fixed, but doing so is hard work. It requires:
- Full and unreserved repudiation of Trumpism/fascism.
- Codifying the norms and standards he violated (and continues to violate) into law.
- Creating federal legislation that clarifies exactly what “emoluments” are to prevent the office of the presidency from ever being used for self-enrichment again.
- Going after every single Russia-compromised politician. Make politicians scared to get in bed with Vladimir Putin.
- Figuring out a way to cut off the sewage pipeline leading from Russian troll factories to our TV and computer screens.
- Implement ranked-choice voting at all levels.
If we’re shooting for the stars, for election reform, I think we might need proportional representation. First-past-the-post is only one problem in our first-past-the-post, winner-take-all voting system.
There are issues with that sort of system too, though I’d consider it preferable. We have a decent distribution of parties in parliament here in Sweden, but it’s still kind of tough to find a party you really jive with. At least you have options, but generally it’s all compromises and nothing really fits at all.
I think that’s always going to be the case. I’m not sure how to fix that beyond direct democracy, and even then, you generally still have to have some group drafting the laws and most people only get to decide yes or no. Trying to govern a large group of people on a large number of issues is just a hard problem.
Yeah, agreed on everything. Dark Brandon, you have my vote.
Netanyahu is a madman though and I hope he sees his day in international court for these crimes.
Oh, absolutely. The most despicable thing about him is also very Trumpian: He’s maintaining a grip on power to try to stifle an ongoing corruption and bribery case against him.
The sooner that man is out of power and in prison, the better.
This is where we are at. Choosing between a child murdering Zionist and an insurrectionist facing multiple civil and criminal trials.
🇺🇸 F R E E D O M 🦅🍔
Pepe belongs to everyone. 🐸
He should, but he’s dead now, because that was the only way he could be rescued from Team Pepe after they appropriated him like Fascists are known to do.
I don’t give a shit what fascists do. If you give in to them, they’ll “appropriate” everything you love. Don’t give in to them.
drug their feet over a variety of things ranging from holding Trump and his goons accountable for January 6th
Investigations take time. It’s not enough to just watch the tv, go “yep, that’s a coup, lock him up”.
You need to depose witnesses, gather the evidence, construct your case, etc etc etc. Had Biden sped the process up by pressuring his DoJ, he would become guilty of exactly what Trump accuses him of, as well as weakening the DoJ’s case by not giving them enough time to do a properly thorough job that would hold up well in court.
My main gripe with him is he’s not strong enough on Ukraine or the climate. But, he does try at least.
I get it. Investigations take time. And maybe that’s my own toxic meme I’ve taken in. We gotta get this right the first time or Trump skates on a technicality. And we all know how skilled of a technicality skater that fucker is.
We can’t limbo with the bar that low please raise it at least past the “not supporting genocide” line
OK. Biden doesn’t support genocide. No, really, he doesn’t. He supports Israel’s right to exist, for sure, and he sure wants to ensure that the 2000+ people murdered and 200+ people kidnapped last October get justice, but he doesn’t support genocide. Enjoy your limbo.
It’s Russian/Republican Propaganda that he does support genocide because he continues funding Israel, pushed by dishonest assholes who benefit from us being divided and uninformed knee-jerk-reactionary useful idiots that push that propaganda. Biden has said repeatedly that Israel’s continued indiscriminate attacks on Gaza make it harder for him to justify continued aid. But can he stop the aid? Let’s think about this RATIONALLY for a moment.
Suppose the US just says “Well, fuck you, Israel, you’re on your own.” What happens next? Here’s some ideas:
- Israel screams betrayal at the United States, saying that we are enabling a genocide that the Arabs have tried to push on Israel since its very founding in 1947, then again in 1967, and again in 1973.
- Iran launches a bigger attack at Israel, and starts another war similar to the Israeli War of Independence, Six-Days War, and Yom Kippur War, giving some truth to the accusations.
- Russia pushes the meme that Antisemitic Lefties in the US pushed Biden to abandon Israel. It’s a lie, but Russia is GOOD at making lies stick.
- American Jews, pretty faithful Democrats now, buy the notion that the Left abandoned them and become Conservative. Don’t say it can’t happen. It’s happening in Israel right now.
- Israel, abandoned by the US, approaches Russia, who they have good relations with. Russia asks for a few of Israel’s 36 F-35s, and Israel as a final Fuck You to America hands the planes over. Russia gets access to our stealth fighter technology, manages to weaken America’s standing in the world, and finds a new source of money for their oil reserves to fund their war on Ukraine more, all at the same time.
- Particularly scary, Israel, beset on all sides and feeling abandoned, decides to nuke Iran. Pakistan, who is known to be nuclear armed, and Iran, who might have a few test bombs of their own, retaliate, prompting a nuclear firestorm and long-lasting aftermath that makes the Middle East a hellhole to live in, and possibly affects the entire global climate.
- That nuclear exchange might prompt a global nuclear war with how much of a hair-trigger the world is on right now. Remember, kids, Global Thermonuclear War is a strange game, and the winning move is not to play!
I’m not saying all of these are going to happen, or even most of them, but it would SURE serve Putin’s interests if there’s a falling out between the actual authoritarian Netanyahu and the leader of the left-most party in the USA, driving Netanuyahu into fellow-authoritarian Putin’s arms! It’d also be quite a feather in Trump’s cap if Biden abandons Israel, loses enough of the US Jewish vote (in addition to the rabble-raisers here in the US who swear they won’t vote for Biden even if he does stop funding Israel because once a Genocider always a Genocider…) that he loses the election to Trump, and then Trump gets to restart the funding and say “See, Democrats are the real antisemites! Pay no attention to the picture of a cartoon frog dressed up as me gassing prevalent US Jews and Liberals from 8 years ago, that’s a lie…”
So. Once again. Limbo away. Just be fucking truthful about it.
Nice fanfic. All that writing just to excuse genocide.
When you can’t win on the facts, just throw out an ad hominem and run away. ;) Thanks for conceding my point, though!
Local resident declares themself winner of internet argument. Starving children destroyed with facts and logic.
Dude. This USA Today blog post is from December 2023. It doesn’t even mention Israel.
Cmon guys! He’s slightly better than a human pile of shit. Go vote! If you don’t vote for our babbling, senile, old man it will be 100% your fault if we get stuck with the other shit bag for 4 more years. We carry zero responsibility for proping this senile old man up, it is 100% on you, the voters.
Good thing the Republicans are all idiots, it lowered the bar so fucking low we can do whatever we want. Because we can’t possibly go the other way and do something better. We have to take advantage and get away with whatever we can.
-The DNC probably.
Someday the DNC will realize Republicans fall in line, democrats fall in love. Forgetting that gave us Trump over Hillary. The only hope that we don’t end up with Trump is us being fueled by hate. I am going to vote, but counting on people to take time off work and wait hours in line to vote only because they are so scared of another possible outcome is the worst reality. But here we are.
babbling, senile, old man
It’s true. He’s old. We don’t need to be ageist, though. The question is can he do the job, and he’s proven for the past 4 years that he can. I’d like younger, but the time for a younger candidate was 4 years ago, not now, when the Primaries are about wrapped up.
He does have a gaffe problem, but that’s not a function of him being senile. Are you ableist on top of being ageist? He’s not good with speech, but nothing, and I mean NOTHING indicates the man isn’t aware of what’s going on around him and can’t communicate.
the Republicans are all idiots,
Do you really believe that? That party managed to put a stamp on this country that will last long after I’m dead unless we hit LEV and I live to be a thousand years old. They managed to do what the Left couldn’t do and put their differences aside long enough to get 6/9 out of the Supreme Court, 28/49 Legislatures, 57/98 Chambers, and 4022/7386 legislators. It was their idea to “Vote for the best candidate in the Primary, and the winner of our Primary in the General” first, and that strategy has secured them several big wins, including overturning Roe V Wade.
take advantage and get away with whatever we can
Welcome to adulthood in America! Glad you could join us! It’s been this way forever and yes, I’m 100% behind you with the whole “Dems are shitty for using the bad behaviour of Republicans to cover for their own.” And guess what! I once believed as you did. Al Gore v Bush? My vote was ‘none of the above’. And then I saw the consequences of that vote, the utter shitshow that Bush the Younger visited upon the United States, and his utter mismanagement of the economy and Hurricane Katrina and of freedoms and liberty (do you remember “Free Speech Zones”? I do…) and leading us into a war based on nothing but lies and the fallout of that war and the crazy gas prices of 2004 and 2005 and 2006 and the economic collapse that took a good 2 years of unrecognised hard work as Obama had to stop and fix all the shit Bush 43 broke. I too was pissed when Obama cowtowed to Republicans and Insurance Companies and gave us RomneyCare repackaged as ObamaCare, but I recognise that that’s the way the game is played, and I look at my wife and my friends and all the people I don’t know like migrants that are just trying to escape a hell in their own country that Trump promises to unleash the military on when (not if in his mind, when) he’s returned to office and I realise a fact. The solution never HAS been and never WILL be to just stay home and let the Fascist takeover of our country happen. Like the Democrats know that they never have to change if you don’t show up in the election, the Republicans know you WON’T show up, so they can edge to the Right counting on you to stay home.
Like I KEEP saying. There is the smart option, of showing up faithfully every year, voting for the Progressive in the Primary and for the Democrat (however much you have to hold your nose to do it), year after year, accepting the proper amount of change in your direction given you represent a quarter of the American electorate at BEST, and there’s the stupid way of doing it, which is to stay at home and let the avowed Fascist win, and watching the protests get swept up on 20 January 2025 by military people and literal unmarked vans with Federal officers who are wearing no identifying marks at all, just like what happened in 2020 during Floyd’s protests. And if you advocate for the stupid way, I’m going to minimally call you stupid, if not outright callous and cruel, doing Russia and the Republican’s dirty work for them.
“It’s true. He’s old. We don’t need to be ageist, though. The question he do the job, and he’s proven for the past 4 years that he can.”
He can’t do the job. He can just do it slightly less badly than the last guy. The country and inflation is shit. Some of that is his predecessor, but he has done nothing to change shit. His cronies still dodge taxes, and I still pay nearly a 1/4 of my income to feds alone. He tried to pretend to forgive student debt by executive order knowing exactly how it would be shut down so he can pander. Kamala called for legalization of pot a month ago when their polls are low. Yet nothing will come of it. Because they are just pandering. He has done nothing, and since our previous president was so abundantly horrible, that actually seems like a good thing. I get it, “choose the less of two evils, welcome to adulthood” I am fucking 50. I’ve been an adult plenty long enough. I have never not voted because I didn’t like who was there. But I will fucking bitch about it online and I am not going to shill for shitbags. Yeah, I am all the ists if that is what you have to call everyone you disagree with, he used to speak ok, now he struggles getting a sentence out.
If thinking someone who was born a decade and a half before we sent and object into space is too old to make decisions on the governance of AI is agist… than I am agist. Trump, Biden, Bernie, all too old for the world we live in. So are all the senators that don’t give up their seats.
I get it is what it is and maybe some people just accept it. I won’t. I’ll vote but I won’t smile while I do it.
The key word in the title is Democrats. Leave those of us that are not Democrats or Republicans out of the conversation.
Hey, pal, I didn’t write the headline, so don’t give me crap about it. But here’s a fact you miss with your “not democrat or republican” nonsense. Do you claim to care about Non-Christian, Gay, Transgender, or Minority people? Then you must vote for the Democrat. Because come November, one of two parties will win the election. That’s just how the American system is designed currently, and it’s going to take LOTS of hard work to fix it, and there are gonna be LOTS of people who will fight you tooth and nail to stop that from happening. But until it happens, either a Democrat or a Republican will win that seat, like one has every year from 1860 until the present. That’s even more likely if the only time you’re pushing for an alternative is during the General Election and not, say, during the Primary or for local elections.
And to remind you, the two men who have a lock on that office in January consist of:
- A man who is admittedly old, who has a speech impediment and a history of engaging mouth before brain throughout his adult lifespan, who is a bit stuck in the past and thinks that solutions that worked on problems back in 1980 will work on problems today, and who is too friendly with Israel as a nation to recognise that Israel’s leader is more akin to his opponent than anyone on his side of the political aisle.
- A shithead who is only 3 years younger than the other guy, who doesn’t have a speech impediment to explain away his word salads, who once famously bragged that he could take any woman in the world he wanted despite her thoughts on the matter because ‘he’s a star’ and ‘he’s allowed to do that’, who mocked and denigrated disabled people willingly and openly, who quoted Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini freely and pridefully, and who encouraged shitheads to run down Americans protesting shithead policies, and who has a plan to double down on all that bullshit come DAY ONE and he promises to be a dictator “only for a day!” if he wins.
One of those two will be in office come January. Nobody else. Your third party or no-vote won’t change that. If you stay home or vote third party in 2025, you should be fucking ashamed of yourself if you even begin to think you’re a friend to any of the issues the Left stands for.
I’ll start with democrats are not left. They are to the right of people like Reagan and Nixon. Your party doesn’t give a fuck about Non-Christian, Gay, Transgender, or Minority people either, talking like they do then doing nothing to protect them makes them no different than their Republican counterparts. Using marginalized people as human shields to defend shitty politicians and their shitty policies doesn’t make you an ally, it makes you an enemy of their progress and keeps them further subjugated.
Cant change a system if no one has the balls to actually challenge it and refuse to keep propping it up.
And the Democratic Party needs to pull its head out of its ass and embrace its base, rather than smugly scheme in ways that are ruining lives.
I have no problem with Biden’s job as president. In fact, I got into a big argument with someone a few weeks ago because they keep parroting anti-Biden propaganda from astroturfed pro-Palestine social media groups.
Biden has been doing a great job for the most part, on a number of fronts.But I’m sort of bittersweet on that, because the harder I look, the more I see the illusion of choice, and an intentional effort to barely keep up with the will of the people.
2016, Bernie vs Clinton. He had the votes, but the party pulled some superdelegate shenanigans to give it to Clinton. And with the same confidence of someone who had just been handed a layup in the primary, she managed to smugly fumble the presidency by a tiny margin.
Post 2020 - Democrats had a majority, and instead of doing things the populous wanted, they wrung their hands about two candidates the Democratic Party had helped elect - Sinema and Manchin - and whether or not they were going to block bills.
The other day I did a deep dive into Elissa Slotkin - a candidate so unlikeable she had to move to a much more certain democratic district when districts were redrawn. When the senate seat came up, the Democratic Party cut deals with more liberal candidates who are vastly more likable, to get them to not run in the primary. So now Michigan is going to wind up with an unwanted centrist that used to be an ‘analyst’ for the CIA during the Iraq war. She’s going to pretend to be a democrat while being the same sort of heel the Sinema or Manchin was.That’s just the people. In their post 2020-majority they could have done so much legislatively that they didn’t even bother considering - like campaign finance reform or expanding the courts, or even changing the rules around judicial nominees to prevent future shenanigans, but that would impact their bottom line or their ability to inspire panic at election-time. They could have strengthened the ACA, but that hurts some of the corporations that donate to them. Or do things to help people so that their rights wouldn’t be at risk - like codifying Roe, instead of allowing it to continue to be a wedge issue that destroys lives, but gets people to vote.
The Democratic (and Republican) Party is playing us all.
I’m not disaffected with Biden. I’m disaffected with a political party that nakedly fucks around to preserve the status quo, rather than embracing their base and winning with an encouraged and engaged populous. They lack the mandate to lead because they only desire to govern. (In contrast to the Republicans which lack the mandate to lead, are unable to govern, and only desire power and to abuse the government for personal gain.)So go ahead, give me the downvotes.
This wouldn’t be an issue if we had ranked choice and a coalition government instead of this ‘winner take all’ nonsense that just incentivizes entrenchment rather than inspiration. But, you know, that doesn’t help the businesses that are political parties, so they ain’t gonna vote on it.You make valid points and we ultimately agree that we should change our voting system. But that happens from the ground up, voting for a third party in the presidential election does nothing.
What are they going to do? “Oh no, people are unhappy with the two parties…well we better dilute our power and give them ranked voting.”
Never going to happen. But you can work locally to get the changes and encourage that elsewhere. Voting third party is worse than slacktavism, as it’s both pointless and counter productive.
Don’t try to play the game you want to be playing, play the one you’re currently playing.
Circling back - I initially did not respond because I thought that my response would be caustic and catty.
It seemed that the first two paragraphs you wrote were in response to me, but the rest were just the same canned responses that get shared with everyone who throws out a ‘voting is pointless’ message. And that’s not really my stance, or my comment. It kind of upset me, so I felt that I couldn’t have responded politely at the time.
It is a reasonable conclusion to draw from my statements, but I don’t believe people should refrain from voting. I just believe political parties should deliver on their promises, and if they don’t deliver, then they should stop making those promises, or make way for parties that do.What are they going to do? “Oh no, people are unhappy with the two parties…well we better dilute our power and give them ranked voting.”
Yes.
It’s not ‘the norm’ as far as beliefs go, but I do kind of think that should be exactly what they do. They are here to lead and govern. That is what public service is. It is service to the public.
If they behave in protectionist ways for the sake of their party’s over the public interest, then they lack the mandate to represent the public.
Leadership is sometimes sacrificing the power of your party for the good of the people. But that’s also irrelevant as an argument. If democrats represent the ideals they claim to represent, then next time they have a trifecta, they should move towards expanding democracy at a federal level, rather than leaving it to states. Leaving it at the state level guarantees the sort of gridlock that holds back local organizing - only certain kinds of ballot initiatives are even seriously considered at a state level because it’ll harm that state’s power on the national stage. In terms of ideology, more U.S. citizens align with democrats than republicans (but huge numbers of left leaning folks don’t vote due to lack of representation). Their political aims would see more progress with a better represented (and presumably more engaged) populous in a coalition government where their ideas can enjoy broader support.
But they don’t run on ideas or by providing better governance. They’re a business that relies on laws and marketing campaigns to succeed in a given ‘business cycle.’Yes.
You missed the point: It is a rhetorical question. Of course they aren’t going to do that. It’s not how it works. These people got into power that way, and there is no way in a representative democracy that you are going to get enough of the reps who gained the power a certain way to give up that way. You are arguing what they should do, and I agree with you. But the problem is that focusing on that is just blind idealism. I’m pointing out the dirty reality of how politics works.
And this assault on “well washington democrats aren’t idealistic do-gooders!” is just a counter productive position (unless you want Reps to win instead). They are humans who have human faults, and primarily made up of people who have sought out the power, so a lot of those faults are going to be amplified.
But that’s the game we have right now. Ranked choice is great, but it ain’t going to come from people wringing their hands over “Well, washington democrats with their slim majority weren’t able to force through sweeping changes that some of their members don’t even agree with!” It’s going to come from getting your hands dirty locally.
It’s super easy to be like “I don’t like either party.” Good for you. I’ve known plenty of edgy 14 year olds who have been able to “reason” themselves to this same conclusion. But nothing you propose is realistic or will solve it.
Voting third party is worse than slacktavism, as it’s both pointless and counter productive.
Can you elaborate? Do you think it’s pointless if more red voters go for third party?
The only good argument I’ve seen against voting third party comes down to: dem voters are more likely to vote third party so more voting third party means more red votes.
Like wouldn’t it be a good thing in your eyes if existing red voters voted third party?
You are demonstrating my point why it’s counter productive: you’re less likely to get something resembling what you want, and more likely to get something almost exactly the opposite of what you want.
To elaborate, the issue is our FPTP voting system. With rational actors, it’s going to tend towards a two party system. The simple example is that if you have a progressive candidate and a liberal candidate, who both pull 30% of the vote, and some far right wing candidate that pulls the remaining 40%. . . every time the right wing candidate is going to win, and the liberals/progressives, who would be mostly happy with the other candidate left wing candidate, are going to end up with the exact opposite of what they want. So these two groups act rationally and coalesce around a single candidate, so now they get 60% of the vote and win every time, while not getting everything they may want.
So even if a third party does win at some point, which has happened in the past, it will quickly return right back to a two party system . . .usually because the third party won and the people whose vote was split realize that it was a terrible strategy.
So sure, if it was right wingers splitting the vote, I would be more likely to get what I want and that would be fantastic. But despite being dumbasses that will vote for Trump, they are still rational enough to realize that not coalescing around a single candidate would be a disaster for them, so they also have a single candidate.
And now that the parties are entrenched, there is no way that the people who have worked up through this system are going to relinquish the control they have. It has to come from the bottom up, or via some (likely violent) revolution. The latter would be more miserable for everyone, so if people really care about not having a two party system, they should be getting involved in local politics and getting it to switch the voting system first, and having that filter up. It’s not easy or fast, but it’s way better than the alternative.
In their post 2020-majority they could have done so much legislatively that they didn’t even bother considering - like campaign finance reform or expanding the courts, or even changing the rules around judicial nominees to prevent future shenanigans, but that would impact their bottom line or their ability to inspire panic at election-time.
This conspiracy theory is so weird.
How exactly are legislative Democrats supposed to accomplish these things when their bare-bones Senate majority depends on Manchin and Sinema? I mean really, specifically, how are they supposed to get things done?
Y’all are always like “they should do more” but you won’t give them the numbers to do it. In a 60/40 Senate we can make wonderful things happen, but you just won’t give it to us.
When the Democratic Party did have a 60-40 in 2009 they did not act. Where they did they self imposed compromises with the GOP or simply didn’t pass legislation they ran on. For example: codifying Roe v Wade with Freedom of Choice Act went from Obama’s alleged first sct in office to “not a top priority.” Then they got annihilated in 2010.
We know from precedent that when Democrats are elected there is no indication they will even promote what they or the party ran on.
Recent example: John Fetterman. Ran as a progressive, immediately said he wasn’t progressive once in office and now pushing for right wing immigration laws.
Republicans get what they vote for. Democrats do not. Which is why these threads are so ignorant and frustrsting to read.
They had a 60-40 majority for only a few months, and they passed a massive expansion of healthcare that has saved thousands of lives and lifted countless people out of poverty. And that’s after Republicans gutted it by killing the individual mandate.
these threads are so ignorant and frustrsting to read.
At least we agree on one thing. But you’re the one spreading the ignorance.
The ACA is the self compromising I was referencing. I thought that was clear, so I apologize for your feeling so provoked by my lack of explicitly referencing it.
I mean, doesn’t change much. You’re still saying that one of the greatest pieces of legislation in our lifetimes is worthless, so you’re still spreading ignorance.
I called it self-compromise within the party, not worthless, at any rate.
The greatest piece of legislation in our lifetime being a repackaging of the Republican Mitt Romney system is rather on-brand for this topic.
