People that spend energy on arguing their right to have opinions rather than defending the opinion are deeply uninteresting and often stupid people that I don’t not respect in any capacity.
I do agree those people you speak about are uninteresting and mostly stupid.
But we should respect stupid people, their ideas aren’t always worth respecting, but as people they themselves deserve considering.
And I praise anyone that has the patience to teach morons to be better people despite their own lack of judgment.
I described a behaviour and two qualities. I said that people with the behaviour often have these two qualities. I then said I dont respect people with that behaviour.
There are a lot if people that are stupid but still fun and interesting people. They have skills that I don’t have and perspectives that I don’t have. They have found ways to interact with the world that works with their shortcomings. I respect them.
Some stupid people decide to hide their stupidity by spending a lot of time arguing that they shouldn’t have to elaborate on their opinion and we should treat all opinions the same without scrutiny. They dont grow, they dont learn, they make their own shortcomings other peoples problem. I dont respect them.
I get that, most people are like you, it’s normal. Best thing for everyone is to avoid those persons.
But my point of view is a lot more optimistic, i think having this behavior isn’t all their are defined as. They can still grow and learn, especially on other area of life.
Depending on how much they rely on this behavior you can have two approach…
If it’s little, you can teach them better without them knowing, as long as it doesn’t directly clash with their dogma, but it requires to be subtle.
If they rely to much on it, the best course is to detach their opinions from the real world and only speak to them with very down to earth things.
I know it will not always really work, most of the time my optimistic view is to idealistic. I can have it because i’m more tolerant, maybe too much.
The goods thing is, even if i’m wrong, i can enjoy myself doing this, and for the rare time i do change something in that person, well that feels great.
I unironically think I respect them more than you do. If I had to chose between a uninterested moron and whatever smug energy you have, I would go with the moron.
Hahahahaha yeah, no. You dont need to be smart to be able to talk someone down. Not everyone who is smart wants to fight others every step of the way.
Making statements that degrade others like this shows a deep lack of understanding and empathy.
that the sky is blue for your doesnt mean its blue for everyone. Sure you can debate people, with consent though.
Have a good one.
I also dont respect people that start comments with a joker laugh.
No problem. Blocked.
Yeah those guys are the worst.
You are literally one of those guys. All your replies in this thread is you being that guy.
Agreeing to disagree isn’t something I put caveats on.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
If your opinion is that kittens are cute, I’m on board. If your opinion is that everyone over 30 should be sterilized unless they are in a top 10 percent earning category, you’re going to have to work for respect for that, and better have a damn convincing argument.
So, yes, unless.
Does the plain fact that somebody said it carry any weight?
If you’re a vetted expert in the field in question. Yes, I’ll give your opinion weight. I e. The millions of scientists and doctors talking about vaccines.
If you’re a chad who watched a YouTube video, no I’ll dismiss you as the idiot you are.
Yes
What if they simply see things differently?
Chocolate is better than vanilla. Argument? Of course not.
Argument requires shared assumptions. If the assumptions are not shared then you can’t argue.
And then what’s left? Respect for the individual?
“Chocolate is better than vanilla” is surprisingly ambiguous. If you said “I prefer chocolate over vanilla” there’s no argument because that’s a subjective statement. If you said “the human pallet prefers chocolate to vanilla, thus those that prefer vanilla are defective” well now you have made far more than a subjective statement that also labels those that don’t share it, you have to be prepared to defend that. If you said “chocolate is healthier than vanilla” then you might need to at least be able to provide some facts and figures like lower sugar content or something.
The point is: when it’s a matter of subjective preference, presented in a way that makes no judgments of dissenters, no arguments should be expected. Making a claim of fact may require evidence. And making a critique of others is asking for a fight.
Yes.
A reasonable position and uncritical acceptance of a narrative are indistinguishable without the reasoning behind it. And I sincerely wish I could give others the benefit of the doubt that they reasoned their way to their beliefs, and I used to. But that assumption has been repeatedly violated that I’d be stupid to maintain it.
But what if my perspective differs?
Argumentation cannot account for that.
Argumentation requires a shared perspective and shared axioms.
You can have different perspectives on observable facts. But if your perspective runs counter to observable facts then you’re simply wrong.
If a worldview is devoid of reason and no argument will dissuade the person, all useful dialog is impossible.
It isn’t a worldview devoid of reason. It’s perfectly good reason based upon a set of assumptions that differ from yours.
Reason is the house. The assumptions is the ground upon which the house is built.
Some ground is rock, some swamp, some flat, sloped… all require different house designs. Dig?
Correct me if I’m wrong, OP, but it sounds like you’re talking about retreating to the axioms of the particular belief system, as in there is a point where reason breaks down because you get to things that you (the person whose expressing their opinion) have accepted that’s different than me.
To me this is a bit of a Motte and Bailey fallacy as your question was whether or not you have a good argument and then someone replied to that and then moved to the set of assumptions which has nothing to do with argument.
For me personally, the other person has to demonstrate some level of critical reasoning for me to respect their opinions, even if their assumptions are different than mine. Beliefs that are entered into using reasoning are more useful than ones without because they can be changed which is what discourse is all about
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy
Today I learned! :)
Really? A worldview requiring accepting ideas without verification and contrary to logic isn’t devoid of reason? In what planet?
There is still a foundation that you should be able to explain. Do you want to just explain what happened instead of talking in hypotheticals? What is your hot take?
If your perspective differs, then to the extent that it’s not extremely outrageous, all the better!
Argumentation doesn’t require a shared perspective and shared axioms (except concerning the conduct of arguing). Fundamentally, it requires that we be willing to be taken on the perspective of others and lead them to where we are, or allow ourselves to be led to where they are. This isn’t common on online discussions because of the incentives of online “debates”, which isn’t to be persuaded or to spend time typing out thoughtful responses with which someone can bite and chew on to serve up something equally worthwhile.
In other words, it’s not that people disagree that’s the problem. It’s how we disagree that leads to the cesspool that internet discussions often devolve into. If you want to argue and try to understand another person, then there’s no reason that can’t happen.
But language cannot convey perspective. It can only refer to it. Language only works when perspective is shared.
If perspective is not shared then, tho we use the same words, the meaning we assign to them differs. We may appear to be communicating but we really aren’t quite, there’s something broken there, and that brokenness generally gets translated as “this guy is just stupid”.
This is a problem with language and the internet.
I know exactly what you mean!
But there’s a really easy way to solve that problem: ask for clarification and then check to make sure your understanding of the concept matches theirs.
For example, when you say “We may appear to be communicating but we really aren’t quite”, the meaning of the word ’ ‘communicating’ slides between different meanings. From my understanding, in the first case you mean a shared understanding of the terms under discussion, and in the second case you mean talking past each other, where people don’t really address the substance of the discussion.
Right? And you’re saying this is a problem of language and the internet?
If so, then I agree that it’s a problem of language, and one that language can just as easily solve. I don’t think it’s a problem of the internet, though, but the social dynamics of internet certainly don’t help.
Some opinions cannot be explained. For example “chocolate is better than vanilla”.
There are a lot of those. It’s the earth upon which all argumentation stands.
So at some point the question arises, “do I respect the individual?”
But for us, on the internet, the individual doesn’t really exist?
“I enjoy chocolate more” and “I associate chocolate with positive memories” are both explanations that are still personal experience that isn’t necessarily shared experiences but can be understood through communication.
Aye, those are preferences and largely entirely subjective (because I prefer vanilla over chocolate).
So at some point the question arises, “do I respect the individual?”
This question is always there.
There’s tiers.
I have no respect for an opinion that the holder doesn’t understand well enough to argue since they are parroting a “common sense” belief based on premises which are easily disprovable.
I can respect an opinion I disagree with which the holder understands, but up until the point where they are willing to argue in good faith. If they are deliberately spreading info which they know to be false because it’s to their advantage that others hold those beliefs, I thinknit’s a major problem. If they refuse to entertain any challenge to their opinion however obvious, that is also a problem.
The opinion I disagree with which I respect the most is one that is in total good faith which causes me to question my opinion. This is how I learn.
Depends on what it is about. We meet and you say :
- You’re vegan. Good.
- You use Linux. Good.
- You’re on the Fediverse. Good.
- You love bicycles. Good.
Now we meet again and you talk about privacy and then ask for my WhatsApp number (which is non existing) to continue that conversation later -> The heat is on! 🔥
So it depends on the threat level. That’s prudent.
Depending on what you mean by respect and opinion, yes. If you’re discussing an opinion then someone is probably going to expect you to explain why, that’s a logical point to cover in any such discussion. Even if it’s subjective. If it’s an opinion on something objective, then there’s an actual burden of “proof” and possible consequences, and the stakes rise accordingly.
There aren’t many reasons to “properly” respect an opinion that is irrational (not just subjective), factually wrong (“interpretation” only goes so far), dishonest, or anything like that. I’m skeptical of endorsing any opinion until I know why it is what it is.
I like chocolate feel free to be skeptical of endorsing it all you like I don’t need to explain myself
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good. no. valid. yes. as long as the premise is reasonable and its logical. If its about how you feel or everyone does it type of thing I just won’t care as long as it just effects you.
I have friends who i disagree with but respect because i know they’ve considered different angles and made a decision that feels right to them. I have friends who i disagree with and do not respect because they believe (or pretend to believe?) what their family, husband, tv tell them and can’t express any real thoughts or opinions of their own.
No. Your beliefs, yes. Your opinions, not at all.
But “respect” for a belief can have many meanings. I’m not going to try to change your beliefs unless you’re into that. So I’ll respect them in that sense. But I’m not going to adopt your beliefs or act them out just because you have them.
I do not respect your belief but I do respect you believing it. French law is very clear about the distinction
No, you could have great arguments while being an ass. When you don’t argue from any morals or ethics, or a ground floor of ascertaining the truth, I have zero respect for your opinions. I don’t really care about what a ‘good’ argument looks like, it doesn’t even need to be good, as long as your grounded in reality and ethics, you’re fine.
It depends on what your opinion is and what you mean by respect.
If your opinion is not well explained or backed up by evidence/logic and isn’t something completely subjective, what is there to respect?
If your opinion is reprehensible, downright stupid, or ignorant? You have access to the entire base of human knowledge and are still ignorant, so what is there to respect?
Your opinion is completely logical/uncontroversial or is well backed by evidence? Where does respect come into it?
I wanted to type something really snarky, but I’m trying to be better than that.
So I refer you to the fact that you should still have respect for someone’s opinion even if they don’t have complete knowledge on it, or to put it your way “You have access to the entire base of human knowledge and are still ignorant, so what is there to respect?”.
People are allowed to have opinions that should be respected even though they don’t have complete knowledge of a subject
What do you mean by respected?
An argument is only as respectable as the person making it.
What do you mean by respect? And is it an actual opinion, like “chocolate is delicious”, or is it just something bigoted you believe? That’s usually what people mean when they want “respect” for their “opinion”. If that’s the case, no, I don’t respect it and I don’t respect you.
Also by respect do you mean let you think your opinion without trying to convince you otherwise or do you mean allow your opinion to affect me without complaint
If it’s a totally subjective opinion, no. You can like food I don’t, or even have kinks I don’t.
If it’s even slightly fact-based, kind of yes, unless you keep it entirely to yourself. I don’t have to agree with it to respect it, though, if you have any reasonable kind of argument.
Like someone else said, in practice nobody actually cares what I respect.
