- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
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Downvote me into oblivion but Kagi ain’t shit. It’s a glorified Google frontend. The author is right that the web is filled with AI generated articles and fake reviews and lists but Kagi is not immune to this enshittification.
I even tried the same query the author was bitching about. Here is Kagi’s first two links for top 10 air purifiers. Notice how the first result is a BS website called top10.com and the second one is one of the “fake review” websites .
And here is Google’s. First result is Wirecutter, and this might be subjective but I trust Wirecutter reviews on most things.
Rest of the Google results are exactly what the author was mentioning. But Kagi was no different.
So $10/month to get the same shit? No thank you. I agree that Google turned to shit compared to what it was but it is still the best search engine out there. Now if the article was about privacy concerns then they would have a point. Which is what Kagi is all about anyway. So let’s stop the fucking act.
I pay nothing for running SearXNG locally on my machine.
TIL of this. Thanks.
My understanding is that a locally hosted SearXNG instance doesn’t really give you any privacy, unless you “dilute” your searches by letting others do searches from your instance too.
To be honest the “Privacy” aspect can be taken care of in other ways; like using a VPN for query dilution, for example. You don’t have to recruit 100 mechanical turks to do junk searches for you; although there are browser addons that can in fact do this automated searching for you…I’ve run them before.
SearXNG is a front-end that protects your privacy still. Hosting it locally dilutes it some; but provides maximal control; as you can use VPNs and control things much more tightly than you could if you hosted it elsewhere.
Route it through a vpn with gluetun and it does…
It’s not even comparable in quality. It’s like almost trolling to even suggest they are in the same league. If you don’t want to spend 10 dollars, fine, but maybe stop pretending that your instance is somehow the best quality search engine that exists… :)
Your argument clearly shows that you fail to see the benefits of doing it yourself. I get quality results from my local instance due to my persistence and work put in to adjust the settings necessary. I’ve balanced the privacy and functionality of the instance to fit my needs and it costs me nothing but a few minutes of my time each week to do so.
Kagi doing it for $10 a month sounds like they’re turning a neat profit off of you; and you’re refusing to accept that I have achieved levels of search competence that Kagi has without paying for Kagi or even using their free searches or service.
Whether or not it makes sense to you value-wise to pay or not pay for Kagi does not matter in this discussion. it only matters that none of the things Kagi can do that I find useful are things that cannot be done with SearXNG.
10 bucks is too much though for a search engine, at least for me. Especially now that I use LLMs to replace most of the usecases of web searches.
I never used Google much anyway the last few years, I use duckduckgo which isn’t quite as bad as google is now. Yeah I know it’s just microsoft bling with a lick of paint but they didn’t enshittify as much as google. But $10 + VAT is just a lot of money in Spain.
Maybe I’ll try the $5 plan though, I never come even close to 300 searches a month anyway.
Edit: SearXNG sounds much better actually, thanks!! <3
Edit2: I installed SearXNG and love it <3 Really thanks for the tips here.
This is a useful take: I too will use LLMs for search-- but not for search for journal articles with data and evidence. LLMs too easily confabulate these.
LLM-as-search is fantastic when you want a no-bullshit statistical result for what you’re looking for when you’re wanting an overview or interactive tutorial.
As long as it has footnoting so I can see where each piece of information was sourced from, AI chat has its use cases. Without that I genuinely do not see the point at all. It’s like when people “ask Google” something and just blindly trust the highlighted “answer” as infallible truth. It’s just a really, really bad habit to develop and I wish more people understood this.
Not infallible truth. But very often it’s something that is just for personal use.
Some things I’ve asked it recently were like “Which torch is smaller out of these 5 models?”. Once I find which one I want it’s easy to verify. Or “what does this Spanish expression mean?” or “how do I do …”.
Not everyone uses it to try and write authoritative stuff. And Google is full of clickbaity “comparison sites” that are nothing but fake advertising.
All of those questions you asked it return authoritative answers which you take on face value, unless you spend extra time fact checking them yourself.
Yeah but accuracy isn’t a given with the other methods either. If I ask some randos on reddit I won’t get a perfect answer either. If I google specs or reviews online they are often biased, wrong (think the magical Chinese lumens of torches) or even literally fraudulent paid reviews too.
So yeah for me the LLM output is more than good enough with a bit of verification if necessary.
I don’t really understand why people are suddenly hung up about holding LLMs up to this lofty ideal of an unbiased super-truth. Where did that requirement come from all of a sudden? It’s not really realistic and not something we’ve ever had in the past.
I feel the same about self-driving systems. People get all hung up if they crash once in a while, expecting them to be 100% perfect in all situations. But ignoring the concept that they already might be a hell of a lot safer than human drivers. They fail in different situations generally but why do we suddenly demand perfection?
I’m sorry, but citing other examples of bad research practices does not magically make AI reliable. That is a whataboutism.
Stract.com also looks promising.
stract has same issue mentioned above where search engines are actually the only time i want data on me to be easily accessible. not being able to search “food near me” is frustrating, and no privacy-centered google alternative i’ve been happy with has had that feature. im fine with my location and other relevant metadata on me getting used in a search, as long as that metadata is in a black box restricted to me that doesn’t create a profile for advertising companies
Yeah that makes sense. My comment had more to do with the potential of a open source search engine/crawler than anything it currently does. Though I feel the optics feature might be able to account for that eventually.
If kagi is just an aggregate of other search engines why not just use a searx instance instead? Its open source and customizable.
I don’t know. I find the underlying principle of kagi a bit problematic. For example, look at what they say in this piece here. I get that any search engine that is “free” but sponsored by ads is gonna be skewed towards the advertisers. But like kagi phrases their response, it sounds somewhat classist. If you can afford a good search engine, you deserve better search results. If you don’t, well, your bad. I mean, it’s OK if they finance themselves by being a paid service. But this should be only a necessary first step before finding other ways to finance themselves.
I’m still steering clear from Kagi after how they handled criticism after they started including Brave’s index
One of my best monthly expenses. I also appreciate being able to block low-quality domains from my search results.
I can do everything Kagi does for free…using SearXNG.
I have the big SearXNG portal bookmarked ( https://searx.space/ ) but I don’t find that I ever reach for it that often. Not being able to cull lower quality sites is just a little bit of extra toil I’m happy to pay to go away.
You do have to host it yourself or run your own personal instance to get the power of SearXNG; if you’ve not tried this, please do not write it off.
If hosting it yourself or even running it locally in a container on your machine at home is too technical for you; nobody is going to bane you for that. In fact there’s several guides and videos out there that might help you if you’re inclined to learn.
If not; you’re also free to continue consuming as you do.
How do you duplicate this feature in SearXNG? https://help.kagi.com/kagi/features/website-info-personalized-results.html
It’s basically the major thing keeping me with Kagi.
Isn’t that exactly what the “weight” in searXNG does?
weight
Where can I find that setting? I don’t see anything like that anywhere in the UI. If it’s in the config files and not in the UI, that isn’t particularly useful to me.
It’s in the UI on the Engines tab. However, you can only see it there, you still have to use the config file to actually change it, sorry. That’s not hard at all though.
If you don’t see this option, perhaps you’re running an older version? I’m running the latest docker.
That seems like a crutch instead of a real feature. I hate even just thinking about having to manage that. What if you want info from sites you do not already know about? Seems like finding new things through search is basically dead anymore.
Cory Doctorow is a smart guy, and has some great takes. But he also pays for Xitter Blue (or whatever they call it) so do with that info what you will.
What are you talking about, I don’t see any tick. Are you talking about the big text that says “NONCONSENSUAL BLUE TICK”?
Maybe I am missing something but it kinda looks like Lemmy is engaging once again in a favorite activity, finding reasons why someone is “problematic” whether true or not, because that’s more fun than just engaging in reasonable posting and commenting and letting people be worth listening to sometimes
That’s pretty much the entire Internet these days.
It’s honestly very perplexing to me
Like why did 5 people upvote just pure combative nonsense. What did they see in it that led them to say “yeah this resonates with me, fuck this guy for objectively false reasons! I support this message!”
It’s just confusing
I think it’s because people are taking their frustrations out on whatever seems to make people think something might be on the upswing. Even better, because you can’t necessarily see who upvoted nobody can call them on it.
It’s like the folks who go to see a movie and gush about how awesome it was when you’re sitting around shooting the shit, but the moment they get on the Net they trash it in as many ways as possible.
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I started using Kagi a few months before $10 became unlimited queries.
When I first switched I’d still, occasionally, swap back to google using bangs because I had to unlearn all the hacks I had to make Google turn up useful things. Now I can’t go back, Google is unsable without those hacks. Its barely usable with them.
Plus Kagi has a “fediverse forum” lens that lets me search Lemmy much more effectively than Lemmy’s search.
SearXNG has fediverse search functionality too.
