Ohh, just how will our little “But Biden saporz Genocide”-crybabies now explain away their “both side is bad” bullshit?
Mocking a genocide of 35,000 humans for internet points… 🤦♂️
Using the G word for the situation = instant disqualification from any serious discussion.
Sorry. This ethnic cleansing is clearly genocidal by now. They want the Palestinians in Gaza gone, and neighboring countries are not capable or willing to take them. That leaves death as the most likely fate for almost all Gazans. A million kids live there for fuck’s sake. It’s evil Nazi shit being done by the very fuckers who claim criticism of Israel is antisemitism.
They are Judeo-fascists, because no fucking group will ever be immune to fascism: Socialists, feminists, African Americans, trans people, every conceivable group of people for the rest of human history. There is no identity that cannot lead to fascism.
have to say you’re being pretty colourful with the lingo here, but at the same time that reveals you’re not a serious person.
Oh, got it. I can only use the term genocide after the genocide is fully completed. I guess it helps you virtue signal by saying “never again” without actually having to put in work when “again” comes around.
Last time I listened to the “boy who cried wolf” argument, I was proven wrong. We should have listened when Trump was called a fascist in 2016. It was unpopular to use that F word then, but what else can you call the Republicans now? It’s just what they are.
If you can’t use the word “wolf” until after it’s eaten all your sheep, you’re not a good Shepherd.
That’s your choices kids…the slow genocide of Palestine or shock and awe.
Yeah but deciding not to vote for Biden just feels like a good trendy way to express my sympathies with Palestineans… /s
I hope this gets posted in all the leftist boards. People need to understand Biden is a continuation of the United States’ wishy-washy policies on Palestinians whereas Trump is pedal to the floor full acceleration towards genocide. Biden has shown he can at least be pressured into taking minor steps in the right direction. Being able to claim moral purity at the expense of a genocided Palestine will ring pretty hollow.
I have a strict “no genocide” policy. Candidates that promote, endorse, allow, or sit idly by and let others do genocide are gonna be a no go from me.
It’s not going to change unless we make demands.
I have a strict “no genocide” policy.
That’s not one of the options though. You get to pick which genocide. You either get restrained genocide, or full genocide with a side of dismantling American democracy.
I expect to have Jill Stein and cornel west on my ballot.
Jill Stein, yes, Cornell West? I wouldn’t bet on it. He’s 2 for 50 so far… I guess if you live in Alaska or Oregon, you’re in luck.
He’s going to wish he stayed the Green candidate.
Either way, they’ll pull a tiny segment of the vote and won’t win a single state, just like always.
jill says they’re on track to hit 5% this november. that’s something worth voting for.
Hey, there’s a first time for anything…
2020:
Libertarian - 1.18%
Green - 0.26% (Howie Hawkins)2016:
Libertarian - 3.28%
Green - 1.07% (Jill Stein)2012:
Libertarian - 0.99%
Green - 0.36% (Jill Stein)2008:
Ralph Nader - 0.56%
Libertarian - 0.40%
Constitution - 0.15%
Green - 0.12% (Cynthia McKinney)2004:
Ralph Nader - 0.38%
Libertarian - 0.32%
Constitution - 0.12%
Green - 0.10% (David Cobb)2000:
Green - 2.74% (Ralph Nader)
Reform - 0.43% (Pat Buchanen)
Libertarian - 0.36%
Constitution - 0.09%
Natural Law - 0.08%In order to hit 5%, she would have to do twice as well as Nader did in 2000.
That is never going to happen.
Stein thinks the US forced Russia into invading Ukraine and doesn’t support US aid or involvement for Ukrainians. Hardly unexpected, since she’s dined with Russian oligarchs at anniversary dinners for RT.
As far as I’m concerned, she’s Genocide Jill. I don’t recall her criticizing RT when someone on there suggested drowning Ukrainian children.
What are West’s positions on Ukraine?
>she’s dined with Russian oligarchs at anniversary dinners for RT.
this contains both misinformation and innuendo. she went to one dinner, and she paid her own way. RT was one of the few outlets that would give her air time during her 2012 presidential bid, which is more of a commentary on the corporate media and political parties than on anything she’s ever done.
>Stein thinks the US forced Russia into invading Ukraine
she never said that. she has said it was an illegal invasion, though.
>What are West’s positions on Ukraine
i’ve heard him say similar things to jill, but also that the shooting needs to stop.
Neither of which are options.
if they are in the ballot, they are options
That’s not how it works. Either Biden or Trump will win. Anything else, you might as well not vote.
Trump isn’t lying I think. I just don’t think the Middle East will sit idly by after his final solution.
This is what I’ve been pointing out all along… Say what you want about Biden funding Israel, Trump is actively worse.
And no, Jill Stein or Cornell West are not viable alternatives.
Holy shit, what a moron. Biden should really send a thank you card for that nice little gift.
The general election will be a competition between two senile goons shouting “I love Israel more than you!” at one another from across a debate stage.
Then we’ll all get an earful about how voting is a civic duty and you need to choose which one is the lesser of the two evils.
Lol…MOST Democrats support this idea too… they just don’t come out and say it.
In all honesty I think if Trump was president right now, not only would I have been shot about 2 years ago (lots of Trump assholes around me and I was pretty vocal on the town page when I was on FB back in 2020), we absolutely would have boots on the ground in Gaza.
“Captain! Captain they’re shooting at us!”
Yeah, plenty of likely Brownshirts around me, and they may get the drop, but I’m not harmless.
Thankfully we’ve had four more years to get more people armed. A lot of us are no longer unable to defend ourselves and our communities.
But also guns bad
leftistsliberals
But sure, yeah… go ahead and just not vote. Letting Trump in will be so much better for the Palestinians.
A week ago, the difference between the two would have been that Trump would enable Israel in every way, while Biden would enable Israel in every way, but staffers would leak stories about how much Biden didn’t like Netanyahu from time to time. Now, Biden has started sending aid to Gaza while Harris is calling for a ceasefire, and this is entirely because 100K voters in Michigan voted uncommitted. When done properly, threatening to withhold your vote can be an effective way to make your voice heard.
Now, Biden has started sending aid to Gaza
But he hasn’t stopped sending weapons to Israel
Yeah, I’m not saying there’s been enough change, just that there has been some change, and it was brought on by people threatening to withhold their vote.
it was brought on by people threatening to withhold their vote.
Its definitely been a wake-up call to the party. Watching Biden shed 20% of Democratic voter turnout in a fucking primary is something. Obama and Clinton never had these kinds of problems in '12 and '96. And guys that did - Carter getting burned by Ted Kennedy in '80 and Bush to Buchanan in '92 - should have been a warning to the party as a whole.
Yeah, I’ll be honest, I’m very worried about this election. I’m still unhappy with Biden’s approach to Israel, but at least now they can credibly argue that voting for him would be harm reduction for Palestinians. Maybe that will be enough to drive turnout.
at least now they can credibly argue that voting for him would be harm reduction
Right until the polls close in November, at which point its back to business as usual.
Letting Trump in
Winner-take-all electoral college means you never really had a voice in the matter.
You should have moved to a Blue State before 2020, so your physical presence could be used to tip how many electoral votes that state produced, if you really cared about stopping Trump in 2024. That’s the only consequential method of putting a (very tiny) finger on the scale of a Presidential contest.
Wouldn’t it make more sense to move to a swing state and try to tip it blue?
Edit: tip it blue
From a population perspective, it wouldn’t matter. Your best bet would be to find a bright blue state that is on the cusp of getting a new house seat. That would boost up the EC total for the state and guarantee consistent adds to Team Blue. Moving to a purple state and hoping you are THE swing voter mostly just means you make the state more valuable to invest in by the various campaigns. You’re still going to be functionally feeding Red Team during red election waves (which blue needs votes the most) when your view is most likely to be in the minority.
Biden: We’ve been reluctantly supporting a very close ally, but it’s gone too far, and now we’re publicly condemning while admittedly still funding them. It’s a complicated situation, and I’m a cautious centrist.
Trump: Why are there still buildings standing in Gaza? That won’t happen on my watch. May as well wipe out the West Bank while we’re at it.
For the life of me, I can’t tell the difference. I have no idea who to vote for to help the Palestinians.
Oh, good.
So the only reason to not vote for Biden is also a reason to not vote for trump. At least Biden seems to be at least signaling for cease fires.
Color me surprised that the facist sympathizes with other fascists committing a genocide.
It was because Biden and the Democrats were against it. Trump literally looks at when the Dems are doing and says they are the exact opposite of it.
Same happened with the US border. The Reps kept demanding money for border security for months, including Trump. In the end, Biden agreed they could have it. The moment the Dems were ok with this, Trump demanded that the Reps be against it, and the Reps voted against the money. It didn’t happen in the end.
You’re wrong about the border. One of his main shticks is immigrates invading the country over the southern border. If they passed the border bill, and Biden shut down the border, he loses a huge talking point with his base and a huge fear of theirs that he can prey on.
He didn’t block it because Democrats were for it, he blocked it because he doesn’t actually care about protecting his base from any invasion, he cares only about himself.
You’ll see that he’ll keep talking about the border.
He didn’t block it because Democrats were for it, he blocked it because he doesn’t actually care about protecting his base from any invasion, he cares only about himself.
That’s a lot of words to say that trump tanked the border deal because the Democrats were ok with it.
No, it’s saying he tanked it because he wants to border to be open because he believe it helps him win.
Hell, the Democrats aren’t even “for it” it was just compromise…or really I think it was a political move to take that away from trump and get what they think is important (support for Ukraine).
Again, just watch, he’ll hammer on the border over and over again during the general election. At that point will you admit I’m right?
At that point will you admit I’m right?
Nix this part and you’re good, chief.
I tend to respond to obnoxiousness in kind. It’s certainly a weakness of mine.
Still uncommitted?
Remember Trump isn’t on the democratic ballot. You can’t vote against him until November. Your only choice in the primaries is to vote for Biden or vote that you are here for the other progressive and democratic choices down ballot but Biden has to earn that commitment by doing something against his own personal desire to be a Zionist and instead help starving children get food.
Uncommitted doesn’t mean I’m never going to vote for Biden. It just means he has to earn it through action.
Sure, but how many people are casting uncommitted or seeing how unpopular Biden is and are going to stay home in November because of it? My guess is not zero.
I get the protest and the timing, but it’s unclear if it’s really inoffensive in the general.
Then it sounds like Biden needs to take a firm anti-genocide stance to get those voters to actually vote, no? Do you think the number of Biden voters would decrease if Biden stopped the genocide?
I think the number of voters in general will decrease if Trump wins, considering he wants to get rid of elections entirely.
Do you disagree with the statement that Biden taking an anti-genocide stance, rather than his current pro-genocide with wrist slaps stance, would increase voter turnout?
Given that Trump is running in the Republican primary, I’m unsure how this would effect anyone voting uncommitted in a Democratic primary?
Well, you’re implying that you might vote for someone other than Biden in the general, and the impact of that is that Trump will become president and the impact of that is Israel will have a free pass from US leadership to completely annihilate Gaza and kill with impunity. So, in terms of actually achieving the goal of stopping the killing of Palestinians, voting uncommitted is not going to work. Additionally, by promoting voting uncommitted and making it a purity test, some people will be influenced by that and ACTUALLY not vote for Biden and this will be the same thing as voting for Trump in that the result of Trump winning will be the same.
This would be a much more productive conversation if you didn’t just invent things I didn’t say to argue with. I’ve implied no such thing.
I am explicitly using the Democratic primary as a method to express my displeasure with Biden, which you may recognize as the sole reason primaries exist. I’m increasingly confused by how many people seem to not understand that.
Will voting uncommitted or for the crazy crystal healing lady lead to the Democrats having a component and popular general election candidate come November? No, sadly, but that’s a criticism of the state of our decayed democracy not giving voters meaningful avenues to enact change in society, not a criticism of the electoral strategies that have to exist within said decayed democracy.
Will voting uncommitted or for the crazy crystal healing lady lead to Biden making meaningful changes in his stances regarding Palestine? Given his change in messaging from the guy that bypassed Congress to sell Israel munitions two months ago to someone that now doing the bare minimum of at least air dropping (nowhere near sufficient) food supplies to Gaza, the answer to that is seemingly a slight yes. Which has the benefit of aligning the presumptive Democratic Presidential nominee with the majority of voters, making him a stronger general candidate.
You know. The whole point of a primary. So, you’re welcome?
I’m increasingly confused by how many people seem to not understand that.
Me too, and I’m Canadian and don’t know much about US politics. Are there sources out there (e.g., US news, social media campaigns, messaging from actual Democrats) spreading the idea that an uncommitted vote in the primary means voting for trump in the election?
Gotta lie keep the support for israel high.
The irony of literally anyone (eligible) not voting for Biden specifically because of his handling of the Gaza situation, and thereby doing their part to help Donald “Gotta Finish the Problem” Trump win, makes my bones hurt. I hate this timeline and I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
If 2024 was the last election ever, then your logic makes complete sense, and I get to liberals every election is the last election ever, despite us seeing Trump’s desperate and flawed attempts at seizing power. He didn’t get more intelligent in the last 4 years or learn from his mistakes.
Imagine a crazy, crazy world, where Trump wins in 2024 and there’s a 2028 election. I know this is hard for some moderate libs to fathom, but you should recognize it as a real possibility.
If it’s incredibly clear that Biden lost because he’s Genocide Joe, then the next Democratic candidate might be someone younger who is ready to end the genocide (which the U.S is perfectly capable of single-handedly doing).
I’ve met people online that absolutely refuse to even acknowledge this is a possible world. They think Genocide Joe is the absolute best, pro-Gaza leader the Democratic party could ever put forth, and that losing elections due to issues like supporting genocide could never change the rhetoric and actions of future candidates in the party.
It’s fucking mind-numbing how little thought people put into this. Like I’m happy to agree that in a world where Trump wins, the years 2024-2028 are going to be worse in about every conceivable way, but then as we get into 2028 and beyond, there are scenarios that play out better for leftists in that world (e.g we get an anti-genocide, socialist leftist instead of some moderate Republican who is a reincarnation of Biden except on some social issues). The fact that moderate libs REFUSE to acknowledge this possibility is fucking exhausting.
And I’m not saying that it’s guaranteed to be better 2028 and beyond, it’s absolutely not, nobody can make guarantees about the future, but there is undeniable potential value in having Biden lose this election when you look beyond the next 4 years.
Politicians cater to the people who vote. If Democrats lose this November and there is an election 2028 they are going to look at the people who voted in 2024 and 2026 and try to get those people’s votes. If progressives don’t vote in the general election this year Democrats won’t waste time on them and will instead focus on conservative voters. Not voting will drive the Democratic party further to the right.
Withholding our votes doesn’t lead to better election outcomes. Voting should be a simple mechanical choice to pick the lesser evil. If people want better candidates then they need to do the work between elections. Refusing to vote and trying to lower voter turnout sets us back. Losing in 2024 will mean America becomes a fascist dictatorship. There is no value in letting the Republicans win.
I didn’t say withhold your vote, go vote for Jill Stein.
It’s sad that you have to resort to a strawman to make a coherent argument against me. This is the only response to me that’s coherent, I just wish it was a coherent point against an actual position of mine, instead of a made-up position you fabricated.
If 8% of the vote goes to someone who has been openly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine, while crowds are chanting against genocide Joe, it’ll send a pretty clear signal to Democrats what they need to do.
Hoping you’ll apologize for the unnecessary strawman honestly, it’s needlessly exhausting to have to deal with all the inane shit everyone is throwing my way, only to then have to deal with a coherent comment put together against a point I didn’t even make.
I didn’t say withhold your vote, go vote for Jill Stein.
Jill Stein has no chance of winning. She is a spoiler for Joe Biden and so voting for her is, for the purpose of counting the difference in votes between Trump and Biden, the same as not voting. We have a two party, first-past-the-post, political system where Republicans benefit from low voter turnout. So Trump benefits from anyone not voting for Biden.
It’s sad that you have to resort to a strawman to make a coherent argument against me.
A strawman is an argument that argues against a different, usually weaker, position rather than the other argument’s actual position. However if the two positions are in fact equivalent, such as not voting and voting for third party spoiler candidates, then the argument is not a strawman.
If 8% of the vote goes to someone who has been openly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine, while crowds are chanting against genocide Joe, it’ll send a pretty clear signal to Democrats what they need to do.
100,000 people already voted uncommitted in the Michigan Democrat primary, with more in other Democrat primaries undoubtedly on the way. The point has been made and no new information will be gained from any third party voter turnout in November. There is no reason why the Democrats cannot change course on Palestine and Israel right now. This would be much more beneficial, to the Palestinians, than waiting through a Trump presidency to finally get help to them in 2028.
Hoping you’ll apologize for the unnecessary strawman honestly,
My argument is that letting Trump win is not only unacceptable, but is counterproductive to the progressive causes your argument claims will benefit from such a scenario. The Democrats will respond to low voter turnout from progressives by shifting to the right to capture more conservative voters. This is a refutation of you argument’s central point.
it’s needlessly exhausting to have to deal with all the inane shit everyone is throwing my way
There were nothing but solid replies to your comment. I implore you to reconsider.
The information gained would be we’re refusing to vote for genocide supporters. Some people, like yourself will vote for someone in support of genocide as long as they’re on the ticket as a Democrat.
If everyone behaves that way, the democratic party doesn’t have to change. They can keep pushing moderate fiscal conservatives like Biden, over and over again, and Democrats will permanently retain power.
If they lose the general election by less than the third party vote, they know there are voters to the left that are voting that they could focus on capturing instead of catering to cultish fascists. Your entire original point was predicated on the idea that the Democrats would have to move right, but in a world where:
-
Republican: 46%
-
Democrat: 45%
-
Green: 8%
-
Other: 1%
There’s a very clear strategy for future Democrats to move left to win the election. It’s either purposeful ignorance or genuine stupidity to say the above is EXACTLY THE SAME as:
-
Republican: 55%
-
Democrat: 45%
This is why the idea of a “spoiler vote” is insanely dumb, especially when you’re advocating for voting for an actual genocide supporter.
The information gained would be we’re refusing to vote for genocide supporters.
The Uncommitted Movement is effectively doing this in the primaries, hopefully without the downside of Biden losing in November. Trump winning would still be catastrophic for the Palestinians, even if there is an election 2028. Trump will green light Israel’s genocide and millions of people will be killed or displaced in that region of the world alone. The Republican party will kill any hope of a Palestinian state happening, as they will undoubtedly support the settler movement. Biden has at least put sanctions on at least 30 Israeli settlers. There is at least of chance of Democrats working to stop the settlers and supporting a Palestinian state.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/04/israel-settler-violence-sanctions
If everyone behaves that way, the democratic party doesn’t have to change. They can keep pushing moderate fiscal conservatives like Biden, over and over again, and Democrats will permanently retain power.
MAGA supporters are going to keep voting for Trump or an equivalent as long as that is an option. They are driving the Republican Party further right, by consistently voting that way. We could do the same with the Democratic Party to drive it to the left. We need to collectively do the work to support potential progressive candidates for future elections, but Biden is the most progressive option we have right now for this election who has any chance to win.
If they lose the general election by less than the third party vote, they know there are voters to the left that are voting that they could focus on capturing instead of catering to cultish fascists.
Exit polling data can break down the ideological differences between Democratic voters. The Democrats will be able to figure out what kind of voters voted for them, without needing progressives to vote third party.
There’s a very clear strategy for future Democrats to move left to win the election. It’s either purposeful ignorance or genuine stupidity to say the above is EXACTLY THE SAME as:
I’m saying it’s the same as:
Republican: 50%
Democrat: 48.91%
Other: 1.09%
Where progressives simply do not vote. Since in both cases Republicans win the presidency. The Democrats are only going to cater to people who vote for them in general elections. edit: capitalization
exit polling data can break down ideological differences
You have an extremely naive view of the world, thinking that exit polling signals the same thing that voting far left does. Constituents aren’t the only interest group politicians listen to, we actually have hard data that for the purposes of at least law making they entirely ignore us, and we have very little influence even beyond that.
The miniscule amount of influence we do have is the ability to remove one party from power. Exit polls come absolutely no where near this in terms of influence. When other interest groups want to continue the Palestinian genocide, and you have exit polls signaling that Democrats are against this (as exit polls have suggested for the last 50 years) then Democrats happily ignore this, as they have been.
We’re in a unique situation where the genocide is ramping up, and for some reason the American left has latched onto this issue (rightfully so, but still surprising). If we actually funnel this clearly into a signal that we will essentially sacrifice our wellbeing (e.g put Trump in power) just to draw the line that genocide support is unacceptable, we might actually see an anti-genocide Democrat for once.
Exit polls are entirely different. They’re fine in a world where there is no institutionalized interest in perpetuating some harm, and the Democratic party is split on some issue, they can look to constituent preferences. But as Joe Biden said best, if Israel did not exist in the middle east, the U.S would have to invent an Israel to protect American interests abroad. Preferences will be ignored without consequences for those in power, and if you think otherwise, again, you’re being naive.
-
In your scenario there would be no Gaza to save in 2028.
False premise.
The irony of literally anyone (eligible) not voting for Biden specifically because of his handling of the Gaza situation
I left my primary ballot blank. There was nobody on the ticket who wasn’t going to continue the genocide (with perhaps Marianna Williamson as an exception, but I’m not indulging her vanity campaign). Come November, I suspect I’ll be in the same spot. Two candidates who are endorsing genocide, with the caveat that one is waving an Israeli sports pennant while the other repeatedly insists he feels really bad about it.
I hate this timeline and I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
Swing by Gaza. We’ll sell the Israelis the next round of ammo used to wipe you off the face of the Earth.
It’s a good thing that the only responsibility of a US president is deciding what to do about Israel.
If they were the only person able to veto something like a national abortion ban, or legislation criminalizing trans people, it would really mess with your calculus.
It’s a good thing that the only responsibility of a US president is deciding what to do about Israel.
Hey now, that’s not true. He’s also responsible for getting his Too Woke judicial nominees filibustered, appointing a bunch of corporate flacks to the Federal Reserve, doing photo ops at the US-Mexico border while wearing tacti-cool kit and frowning through a pair of binoculars, and fucking up the handling of the next environmental / weather disaster. And who can forget the most important job of any President? Fundraising!
If they were the only person able to veto something like a national abortion ban
Then we’re already fucked, because that would imply all this hemming and hawing about abortion being a losing issue for Republicans failed to pan out and now a bunch of sadistic right-wing fucks are crowding into the House and Senate.
Yes and these people become excessively angry with you when you point it out. Their goal isn’t really to find a solution, it is to express discontent. They are divorced enough from reality that when you mention that Trump would be worse, they tend to lash out at you instead.
“I don’t want to live on this planet anymore…” oh please, just stop. How horrible is your life? You sound like a whiny liberal. People are dying all over the world, being murdered for religious beliefs, sexual preference, politics…etc…and you don’t want to live because “that big bad republican might become President…” Please…
And people think Democrats will
vote onsupport Trump because Biden won’t denounce Israel…It’s at least in part Russian propaganda. They don’t want people to vote for Trump, they do want democratic voters to not vote at all, which will help Trump get elected.
Look at the people pushing the ‘genocide Joe’ thing. Invariably they’re anti-NATO and make excuses for Iran, Syria and Russia. Not that they’re doing it deliberately, but plenty seem to have bought the propaganda and are acting like useful idiots by spreading it.
Its at least in part Russian propaganda. They don’t want people to vote for Trump, they do want democratic voters to not vote at all
you’re making this up
suck my balls
Imagine banning people from your stonercringe community because they said you shouldn’t drive high
