My mother was the abuser in my home. She abused me and my father. That fact doesn’t prevent me from knowing that men are statistically more likely to be the aggressor. I don’t know what I’m trying to say with this comment. Life is scary and hard enough. May we all only share and receive kindness.
Xx love you.
That is very kind of you, cokeslutgarbage. Not my business but anyway: this may be the moment when a username deserves to be changed.
you were saying?
😂 I didn’t notice until you mentioned it.
Hoping there’s a r/rimjob_steve equivalent here on Lemmy! 🤞
Yeah it could probably use a cunt at the end for maximum efficacy
Not your business
no.
I think I interpret what your saying as that you’re aware women likely need more help, but so do men, and we shouldn’t assume the smaller one doesn’t exist because that group creates their fair share of issues too.
Thank you for that balanced take on this issue.
So sorry to hear that.
I read:
1 - men absolutely get abused
2 - we don’t need to entirely eliminate any of the existing narrative that women have it rough [but let’s add abuse of men to the picture]
No notes besides sending some love back, brother.
May we all only share and receive kindness.
Well said, @cokeslutgarbage
Is this Lemmy’s rimjobsteve?
I know roger simon won’t show up. It was always his father who would beat him with jumper cables.
I assumed you said that (about how men are far more likely to be abusers) to try to mitigate any reactions that take your very reasonable comment out of context. Any time someone points out that abuse or injustice can happen from the non-typical side of a binary situation, someone inevitably jumps in with a “well achually…” response. Sometimes it’s said with the best of intentions. Sometimes it’s just trolling our pushing a personal bias.
I disagree with others who say you are perpetuating something negative by saying that. That’s clearly not what you are doing. You are just trying to provide a preemptive response to an inevitable counterpoint. Your overall point was well-made and reinforces the tragic but insightful story behind this post.
I hope you and your dad have found peace and happiness away from your abusive mom.
It’s because you can’t say or do anything in regards to this issue without attracting people that have an agenda that has nothing to do with helping men but is simply anti-feminist.
I’ve read plenty of times online how people don’t even look for help because they were convinced online that help for men does not exist. But it does and it should be spread instead of people trying to persuade people it doesn’t exist just because they want to spread their ideology.
This is exactly how I interpreted it
I don’t know what I’m trying to say with this comment
That despite being actual victim of abuse, and further witnessing your father be a victim of abuse, You still try to push the narrative that women are the only real victims and the only ones deserving of support.
and I dont say this to be mean, or snarky, or cruel to you. You’ve just got to realize how internalized you’ve got this shit.
You still try to push the narrative that women are the only real victims and the only ones deserving of support.
???
When did he said that? Are you brain rot? He’s just acknowledging the fact (yes, FACT. There’s a good number of articles that support this) that women are more prone to be abused by men than men are, and this definetly does not invalidate his suffering or from other men at all.
I don’t know what I’m trying to say with this comment.
That’s a indicative of nervousness over even discussing the problem. Which shouldn’t be the case. The existence of a larger problem doesn’t mean people should feel nervousness over discussing smaller problems.
Also this isn’t a smaller problem for the person affected. A man that is abused is no small problem for that man. It’s the biggest problem in their life, just as for a woman that’s being abused that’s the biggest problem in her life. The fact that more women are being abused than men doesn’t lessen the effect of the abuse on the individual whether the victim is a man or a woman.
There’s a tendency for statistics to override empathy for an individual. “Ah well, that doesn’t happen very often, so whatever.” But it did happen for that person and it’s just as horrible for that person as it is for individuals in that statically larger group.
So we should make an effort to prevent statistics from negating empathy. There shouldn’t be a stigma against someone talking about a problem that’s statistically less probable as if low probability means something didn’t happen and isn’t worth talking about. It happened and and we should be aware of how statistics can have the tendency to turn us into statistical psychopaths which prevents real problems from being addressed.
That fact doesn’t prevent me from knowing that men are statistically more likely to be the aggressor
Right there.
He is a victim if abuse, and deserves support and understanding. He deserves to be heard without caveats. He shouldnt feel the need to have to basically hide his abuse by saying “Yeah, I was abused, but women have it so much worse” to avoid a deluge of critical comments and attacks. Which very often happens anytime a man is a victim of abuse and speaks out about it in any capacity.
He deserves support, and understanding, and resources. Same with his father. Same with all victims of abuse.
But men don’t have access to such things, because societal misandry on the topic means resources for men are downright nonexistent, because if a man tries to access currently available resources, they’ll be shut down and viewed as an abuser trying to get to vulnerable women, and anytime someone does try to provide resources for men separately, They are either attacked with dubious claims like trying to take resources away from women, or are just straight shut down and ridiculed.
And statistics are only based on reported/known crimes. male victims of abuse, domestic or sexual, are far less likely to report due to the social stigmas associated with toxic ideas of what men should be.
So you’re basically one of those sexist trolls who argue that men get abused too, therefore they couldn’t possibly be responsible for most of the abuse. And that women’s suffering is invalid.
To solve the problem, we have to accept the facts and the fact is, despite the fact that men sometimes get abused, they’re the ones doing most of the abusing and therefore are the ones who need to be fixed. Deal with that fact.
Project harder, troll.
And the slave racket keeps churning out more broken people while you squabble with me to try to be right about something.
Is you arguing with me going to do anything to save any abuse victims? Any of the male ones who are clearly the only ones you give a fuck about? Hmm?
Oh damn, you got me. Yep. I only care about male victims
He deserves support, and understanding, and resources. Same with his father. Same with all victims of abuse.
You’re fucking stupid lol, and people like you who put the label of sex in domestic violence + abuse can honestly go fuck themselves too.
A N Y O N E is capable of violence. To lessen a HUMAN BEING’S suffering just because of their sex? THAT is sexism my friend, literally the definition right there. “Men need to be fixed” because about 14% more are abusers compared to women? Not accounting for rounding, margins of error, silent cases? Considering the fact that men are far more likely to stay quiet in cases like this because of the extreme stigma that people like YOU create in circumstances like this.
Remember, YOU people brought sex into it. I don’t see male or female when I see someone suffering from domestic abuse, I see a victim!
You don’t see “female victim” on the news when you see a woman getting in a car crash, you don’t see a “male victim” headline when a man gets murdered in a street, you see VICTIM. That’s because that’s what they are and that’s what’s important at the end of the day.
The statistics say men are responsible for most of the domestic violence, but good job proving you have a shitty sexist agenda by parroting what I was telling everyone else to benefit you, while rejecting the truth.
The only ones who are going to suffer is… about a quarter of U.S. households, give or take
Parroting what you said huh? Where did I repeat a single word you said?
shitty sexist agenda
That my friend, is what parroting actually is. You brought sex into it because you want to make a specific group of people’s suffering seem insignificant solely based on the genitals they were born with. That’s literally sexism. Victims are victims, giving a specific group special attention leads to ignorance of the other group, and especially considering that about 36% of domestic violence victims are indeed men, that is NOT something that can just be ignored. It is totally ironic that you are sitting here telling me that I have a sexist agenda when you are literally downplaying just how many domestic violence victims are men, solely based on the fact that they are men.
rejecting the truth
I need citations please, show me where I denied any fact based evidence you presented. I said men are victims in an estimated 36% of domestic violence cases, everything you just stated seems like it was an attempt to somehow “prove” that I said something other than what I said.
Again, the very first sentence in my statement holds just as true as everything else I said, you are fucking STUPID.
Thank you for saying this. It is the same when men get raped by other men. “It is male on male crime” is such a stupid take, it is blaming the person who got raped because of the gender they were born into.
There are resources and help for men. You aren’t helping anybody but sexist trolls by pretending they don’t exist. The only thing you are “achieving” is that some victims don’t even try to get help.
Gonna break out all the alts for this, huh?
Because that part is completely irrelevant to the fact that men can be victims of domestic abuse and it’s often used to dismiss the men who are victims.
And the fact that he feels the need to pre-emptively dismiss himself that way is sad. He shouldn’t have to feel that way.
But why bring this up in a thread about abused men?
Because you all constantly bring up the fact that men are abused whenever women talk about their suffering in order to invalidate what they’re saying.
And now that the shoe’s on the other foot, you complain.
And while you’re squabbling with me over it, the slave racket will keep churning out more crushed souls.
“Every time there’s discussion about women’s issues there’s men who try to divert it to their problems and that’s annoying, therefore women should do the same thing so that men get annoyed too”.
Is that really how you want this to work? An eye for an eye?
Should I even bother justifying that with a response knowing you won’t ever listen or care unless it happens to a man anyway?
Yeah, he’s maybe taken it a bit far, but his point is still valid. If I’m talking about my experience with abuse it should be allowed to stand alone. I shouldn’t have to acknowledge its place in the meta.
It’s fine to discuss its place in the wider conversation, but I shouldn’t be forced to engage with it when sharing my experience. When people do try to push this it does unfortunately come across as invalidating my experience.
The original commenter posting that bit makes it seem like they’re minimising their experience for fear of others’ reactions.
Watch an episode of 90 Day Fiance if you have a hard time imagining the woman being the abuser.
Absolutely, since women generally are the weaker of the two they don’t use violence/physical force a lot of the time, their weapon of choice is emotional abuse.
Of the 13 women I’ve dated, 8 were physically violent with me. I’ve been slapped, punched, kicked, scratched, bitten, spat on, hit with blunt objects, and in one case burned by women I was with. And I suspect that number is as low as it is because the violence came mostly from women I was going long-term with; flings and one night stands were less likely to hit.
I never struck any of them. Not once.
Of the five I’ve dated, none have used violence except my last ex, who started slapping me once during a drunken argument. So one out of five I guess.
That tracks with what I’ve read. Women are responsible for most of the nonreciprocal domestic violence cases, by a whopping 70% or some such.
Cowards are cowards, they hit people when they know they won’t be hit back.
Also mental abuse, in the form of concrete gaslighting.
Violence and physical abuse is always also emotional abuse.
That is not necessarily true. Yes, women are generally weaker than men, but individual variation means a woman can be stronger than a man.
Aside from that, the difference in strength doesn’t matter that much- no matter how much my mom hit me, I never really had the desire to hit her back. Even when I was a teenager and could have wrecked her, I didn’t want to. Then on top of that, there’s the very real problem of authorities getting involved, they’re going to assume the male is the aggressor, really limits your available options…
It was the same for my dad. I still remember their last fight before the divorce. They were cleaning up after dinner, and my dad dropped the ice cube tray, scattering ice across the floor. This set my mom off and she started screaming at him about how worthless he was, and she tried to kick him in the gut. He caught her foot, purely out of self defense, but that threw her off balance and she fell on the cat dishes, which led to some pretty gnarly bruising… I didn’t see the whole fight, I was upstairs, but I heard it going on and came down just in time to see my mom sitting on the floor (sobbing, like she hadn’t started the whole thing) and my dad standing there with a look of “I can’t take this anymore”
Anywho, the point of all that was, it’s not about physical strength - an abuser has a meanness that their victim(s) lack, and that matters far more.
Today I wish I didn’t learn…
It is a man’s duty to learn from horror.
Yeah… you don’t see feminists complaining about fair representation in sanitation industries.
Same goes for the draft.
A lot of feminists in the US supported the Equal Rights Amendment, which would have made women eligible for the draft. The fact that women would’ve been eligible for the draft was used by anti-feminist groups as a fake feminist argument against the ERA.
I’ve also heard plenty of feminists complain about “men’s” and “women’s” sanitation products, including men for whom women’s razors work better and women for whom men’s razors work better.
A lot of feminists in the US supported the Equal Rights Amendment, which would have made women eligible for the draft. The fact that women would’ve been eligible for the draft was used by anti-feminist groups as a fake feminist argument against the ERA.
Most MRAs would LOVE to see the ERA passed, so long as it was passed without that rider that basically enshrined any kind of traditional benefits for women. And by that I mean that were the ERA to pass groups like NCFM would be launching entire fleets of lawsuits nationwide.
But then, there are all kinds of laws I’m amazed manage to stand without being tossed on equal protection grounds, even without the ERA.
For example, all the laws that exist to punish men who fail to register for Selective Service (because charging them with failure to register is so unpopular it hasn’t been enforced since the 80s), by requiring you provide proof of registration in order to get access to various benefits or jobs if male. Meaning (for example) male applicants literally have one more requirement to get state jobs or be admitted to state colleges in my state.
Or the Affordable Care Act, since the contraception coverage mandate applies to all categories (but not all brands within each category) of women’s contraception, including barrier methods but do not apply at all to any form of men’s contraception (even noting there are currently only two approved by the FDA at all - condoms and vasectomy).
I’ve also heard plenty of feminists complain about “men’s” and “women’s” sanitation products, including men for whom women’s razors work better and women for whom men’s razors work better.
They were talking about sanitation jobs, not sanitation products. Feminists routinely fight for equality in high-status cushy office jobs, but not so much in things like sanitation workers which are also heavily male dominated. It’s just another example where equality is great so long as being more equal benefits women, and if it doesn’t then we should just ignore it or even fight against it (see shared custody laws).
It depends on the feminist, but feminism itself is actually pretty egalitarian
Where are you seeing feminism and feminists advocating for mandatory militarily service for women?
Why should they?
To be egalitarian
Preposterous. Egalitarian would be with a view to bettering everyone’s rights to the same level, not worsening one’s rights to the level of the other’s.
I dont think murder should be a right.
The same ones that are against traditional gender roles. I don’t think they’d argue for mandatory military service so much as no one should be forced to serve in a war
Then why no big vocal outcry when Russia attacked Ukraine and Ukraine allowed women, children and the elderly to flee if they could, but men who were hypothetically of fighting age were required to stay?
Feminism has often spoken out against the draft, recently and historically. And the majority of feminist scholars and groups are anti-war and anti-military in general. Stop trying to push this on feminism. Being anti-feminist isn’t the way to tackle men’s issues.
Can you show me evidence of ‘feminism often speaking out against the draft’?
Also, how come you completely ignored my point about feminists ignoring fair representation in less-desirable jobs?
He wasn’t weak like some bigots may claim. It’s just not that easy to fight the whole world alone. And he tried just that. A very tragic story that is really good to know to start untangling the problem.
If you want a good band that talks about that and are pretty aproacheable, IDLES is a good recent punk act with a lot of bangers. Search for them on youtube, their videos hit hard and their live on KEXP is fire.
This is why, you’ll never see your father cry
This is why, you’ll never see your father cry
This is why, you’ll never see your father
IDLES - Samaritans
You are goddamn right.
New album out soon! I can’t wait! Fucking class act.
My god, what an awful story.
This is really depressing. Men need those type of resources as well.
There are shelters for men. You can find them for example here (this is for Canada): Men and Families Canada
1-866-887-0015 for male sexual abuse survivors toll-free 24/7
Menand Canada for further resources
Heads-up Guys Canada especially for mental health issues
This is a list based in Ontario with additional helplines and resources in Canada also for women, indigenous people, LGBTQ+ and other minorities.
I was abused by my ex-wife for years. The treatment I received from government agencies was more damaging than most of what I got from her.
Certain organisations that are used to inform governments, from elected officials to social workers are based on the assumption that only men are ever abusive, that all men are abusive and the women can do no wrong. It started with the Duluth model and was followed in Australia by a study done by White Ribbon that specifically excluded straight men from participating. I know this is the case as I attempted to participate and that is exactly what I was told at the time.
Our bureau of Statistics has clearly shown that at least ⅓ of victims are men.
This is what is meant when people talk about the patriarchy and toxic masculinity hurting everyone. It’s not “all men are bad!” But rather the idea that men aren’t allowed by society to have feelings other than anger, or are unable to be raped, or need to just “man up” when they are suffering-It’s all bullshit, and so harmful to men and boys. I’m so sorry for what you went through, and I hope you were able to find peace.
That just sounds like deflection.
Men only shelter got shut down by me because feminists protested.
Do better women.
Uh oh! Looks like somebody called out feminism on some horrible behavior. Downvotes for you sir.
I think the toxic masculinity is another subject aside from domestic relationships involving man on man violence and how it’s given a pass (especially on tv) . Beavis butthead /jackass type stuff. At least that is more in context of what I’ve seen it meant to be towards.
Domestic abuse however should be considered regardless of gender. It would be better to drop the gender out of it entirely when discussing it. We should acknowledge anyone can be a victim or even an abuser. it’s actually very common that even both are abusers but that often doesn’t get addressed other than being ‘one cancels out the other’ or ‘you’re both bad for eachother’.
Eh, no. A lot of this crap is also being pushed by the latest wave of feminists who are of the “all men are rapists” type. I recall seeing this video a few years back about a guy trying to get into a meeting for those left after male suicide. Guy’s brother committed suicide, he wanted, needed to talk about this and was denied entry by a bunch of feminists who literally cheered that his brother had killed himself.
Everybody deserves equal treatment, men, women, or whatever you identify as. In the past few years though, there had been a clear push against white men because they must all be racist or something? It’s weird.
Either way, this is not just “toxic masculinity”, way too easy to again push it on that.
As all the popular things, feminism was pretty fucking great up until a certain point. Then it became a parody of itself.
I’m on the side of every woman still struggling in a man-made world. For every “feminist” of the vengeful variety I have nothing but disgust.
Those types of misandrist feminists have always existed
Yeah but now that women live on an equal footing, feminism’s energy comes more from these people than it did before.
When there was justice to be sought, plenty of the movement’s energy could come from love.
It is still toxic masculinity, people just aren’t prepared to acknowledge the massive role women play in propagating it.
So the belief by neo-feminists that all men are rapists and undeserving of sympathy is due to all men’s toxic personality? Am I getting that right? Seems like victim blaming.
“Toxic masculinity” doesn’t imply “masculinity is inherently toxic”, but rather it refers to behaviors that are generally considered masculine, and are being described as toxic. You can talk about toxic femininity as well. A lot of people do, in fact, they just call it “being Karens”.
… and that most men are guilty of. When we blame men’s suffering on toxic masculinity, we are referring to the toxic masculinity in the behavior of men, and therefore we are blaming men’s suffering on men’s behavior.
thats a reach
Calling it toxic masculinity isn’t victim blaming. Men are victims to toxic masculinity every day and it isn’t because they have a “toxic personality”, it’s because the “masculine” image and roles in society they are expected to uphold are toxic.
The opinions of “neo feminists” are not what is typically held true either. Very few people think that way.
“Toxic masculinity” is absolute dog shit as a name for it, and I’m sure the parent commenter is reacting to that.
People use the adjective in plenty of adjective-noun pairs as an intensifier all the time. The ones railing against “deviant homosexuals” are not distinguishing them from the vanilla ones, nor do people who decry “evil pedophiles” recognize and support a non-evil variety. Thus, a lot of people hear the name “toxic masculinity” the same way, as if it is denouncing masculinity as a whole.
I agree with all of that in every way.
I had the same issues with my first wife. At one point when we were separated she attacked me in public and tried to steal my keys so she could take my car, while I was holding my kid. I had scratches all down the arm that wasn’t holding my child, and I ended up retreating into a store, where she continued to attack me. When the cops showed up I was immediately cuffed, and she was treated as a victim, despite onlookers and even her telling them that she had attacked me. I would have definitely gotten booked except that a female officer was called to talk to her, realized what was going on, and made the male cops uncuff me and arrest her instead.
At the hearing for a restraining order the judge literally laughed, and gave her partial custody of the kid with no restraining order for either of us, and the local DA let her off with anger management courses and nothing on her permanent record.
Did you keep photographs of the scratches? Even if they don’t become useful for you, they can be useful for history books when describing this problem in the future.
Im sorry to hear this, remember men will always be there for you!
I have a feeling that only scratches the surface of what is abuse. It’s a whole family dynamic. And I would prefer it if gender wasn’t part of the discussion It really slants it like you say.
I’ve seen people blame the victim of abuse simply because they aren’t the abuser and ‘should know to leave’ when it is actually a very dangerous situation they are in.
And in some of the programs on the subject of addiction it’s actually more common that you’ll get both parents are actually abusive however our way of being programmed (like in the programs you’re saying) we might side more with who shares our gender. Or worse: start thinking the person who is being abused deserves it because they are somehow annoying others into abusing them. Or even wants to stay for the abuse and people lose respect for the victim for not leaving.
In Australia (more so in New Zealand) they are at least a decade behind on what is going on in America when it comes to addressing abuse dynamics. They still struggle a lot to get cops to take abuse seriously and very behind on the training. Lots of these programs even believe that abusers think victims have evolved to take a hit. I dunno, some sort of messed up biology involving whomever or whatever the gender is they believe is the more common and whatever the gender of victim is most common.
sure, ok in worst case scenario let’s say there might be some fucked up narratives like that out there amongst why an abuser abuses, I’d like to see that (or any idealogical bases for abuse) challenged towards the individual abuser rather than confirmed to the victim.
I’ve heard many horror stories like this…
Had a friend who called the police on his abusive girlfriend when she pulled a knife on him, they arrested HIM for abusing HER despite him having witnesses…
I’ve also knew a guy who had to leave home because of his abusive wife, and when he asked about Abuse Shelters for men, the office kept recommending him to Anger Management programs meant to rehabilitate abusers
There was rape training at one of the unis I went to, including sexual violence against men and women stats. The rape stats were pretty bad as they are, but the one that really stuck out to me was that 1 in 10 men got raped. Really fucking high, much higher than expected. And you never hear much about it until a friend of a friend got held down by several people and raped. Refused to come forward to the police or even get tested for STDs because he was afraid of what society would think.
That feeling can help us understand where women were at about 50 years ago. That’s the thing feminism was fighting originally: the total societal blind eye, alone feeling.
Women today don’t even know what it feels like, to have no one care. Which is a testament to the success of second wave feminism, at least in this domain.
Another suicide by gamedev.
But gamergate was only racist altright hate, I’m sure of it /s
Swing and a miss, bud
Thanks for sharing
It’s well known now that gamergate and large parts of the “MRA” movement were organized specifically to radicalize young white men, as a test run that would eventually become the alt-right pipeline to radicalize even more people. Steve Bannon and his band of merry trolls were heavily involved.
So, yes, it really was sexist, racist, full of hate, and directly led to the alt-right movement online.
It’s well known now that gamergate and large parts of the “MRA” movement were organized specifically to radicalize young white men
Organized by who? And to what extent? Bannon exploiting something doesn’t mean he caused it.
This information is not hard to find, if you cannot or do not wish to learn about the entire situation, which is much more complicated than could be boiled into a reply here, perhaps you are willfully doing so. please look it all up. There have been plenty of articles and even documentaries made about it through the years since. It is not my job to teach you about it, and I’m not qualified, nor do I have sources ready.
It is fair to say you simply don’t want to respond for any reason. But, it is malicious to attack me for asking the reasoning behind a claim you made. No matter what source I find, if I respond to it, that may not be the source you are citing. The plenty of sources, is what makes it impossible for me to respond to any individual claim based on them.
I’m not citing a source, I’m speaking generally. Search YouTube for a video called “how to fall down the anti-sjw rabbit hole” to get started, great video by a great YouTube creator called Three Arrows., but really it is not difficult.to find this sort of information. I am also speaking generally instead of specifically on purpose because my goal here was to leave a comment. Not to have a debate.
I’ve seen a fair number of those videos, like the Foreign Man in A Foreign Land video too, but those seemed to attack gamergate with a broad brush- the issue is edgy 4chan/kiwifarms/8chan or whatever users. That doesn’t mean the criticism of mainstream games sources weren’t valid, or criticism of Feminist Frequency weren’t valid.
Gamergate was a false conspiracy that radicalized young white men. It was a horrible attempt at a “return to normalcy”. Gamergate was one of the first dominos to fall in this current realm of disinformation.
If you grew up on 4chan and haven’t read It Came From Something Awful, I highly recommend it. It lays out how gamergate was the inflection point. It also makes the case that counter culture is now forever dead. Makes you feel pretty bad about things, actually. It feels pretty correct though.
Also, it’s an incredible anticonsumerism piece. If you ever feel like you can no longer fight the machine, this book tells you that you’re not alone.
Holy hell, thanks for the rec. Another piece I recommend on similar themes: https://medium.com/curiouserinstitute/a-game-designers-analysis-of-qanon-580972548be5
Thanks for the link. Good read so far.
While we’re throwing out Qanon dissections, Gabriel Gatehouse’s The Coming Storm is a wild listen. I heard about it when he guest interviewed on Jon Stewart’s The Problem. The stuff he said there was so interesting that I checked out the podcast. Gabriel’s moved on from BBC now, but I’m eager for more of his reporting.
I read half of this book yesterday and felt like I was having Vietnam flashbacks. I remember so much of this. Thanks again.
I honestly still don’t understand what gamergate is or was.
I “lived” through it, and both read and saw post mortem videos about it, as well as had various people try to explain it to me. And yet it never made any sense to me.
Nobody can, it seems, point to the specific thing it was about. It’s vague, it’s nebulous, and it seems to me more like there was controversy for controversy’s sake.
Game media’s mailing list and their gamers are dead articles all coming out at once.
Now someone gave you an exact fucking event. It’s not even hard to find, so I kind of question your intent.
It’s because it was a lot of things. People are right* in saying there were some toxic elements of it, like on 4chan. But there were also people criticizing how IGN and others seemed to be very lazy in their reviewing, and criticizing Anita Sarkeesian for (from my perspective) valid reasons.
It’s because it doesn’t make any sense on the surface. Why were people so angry? Why was the jovial jokey part of the internet being so serious and violent? It marked a shift of the internet being srs bzns to serious business.
srs bzns to serious business
Never thought about it that way, but it’s a great observation
Gamergate was a false conspiracy
What was the false claim?
Gamergate was one of the first dominos to fall in this current realm of disinformation.
I agree it led to popularity of a lot of the same outlets that helped elect Trump, I also agree it led to mistrust in main stream media sources. So I guess I agree that’s true to an extent.
The idea that there was a grand conspiracy against men, and that it started in the gaming industry.
Here in Poway, we had someone shoot up our synagogue as a result of this movement. It’s a dangerous rabbit hole. 4chan can be bad, but 8chan (in it’s “prime”) was much worse. It’s platform was well designed, and full of vitriol.
The idea that there was a grand conspiracy against men, and that it started in the gaming industry.
But that wasn’t a claim of gamergate. There were a lot of “points” of it, but no one said there was a coordinated conspiracy against men, it was somewhat related to the MRA movement that was growing at the time. But MRAs also weren’t claiming it was a coordinated conspiracy against men.
Here in Poway, we had someone shoot up our synagogue as a result of this movement. It’s a dangerous rabbit hole.
People have committed terrorist acts because of a lot of things, there are christian, muslim, terrorists. So that invalidate those religions? There are socialist terrorists, does that invalidate socialism? No “key actors” in gamergate encouraged murder.
4chan is and always was bad, and 8chan was just more of the same 4chan.
I remember during Occupy Wallstreet, 4chan was in someways seen as like a robinhood type community. Connected with Anonymous. I agree 4chan was bad even then, if only because of the glorification of violence/gore. But it wasn’t as hated.
8chan was where everyone went during gamergate because they thought Moot was a feminist/ anti freedom of speech. Weekendgunnit on reddit also ended around the same time. A lot of angry young men who believed the world was out to get them, consolidated in one place. It was a powder keg.
I’m super grossed out to say this, but I was one of them. I was there. It was bad. As soon as I matured and gained a SINGLE ounce of human decency, I immediately disavowed 8chan. It’s not the platform, it’s the people.
I’m glad you grew out of it.
I was already a married ‘adult’ with a child of my own by the time 4chan arrived on the scene and had spent enough time online since the early 90s to know what had arrived. It was created by a 15 year old so there’s no surprise that it was populated by 1. kids and younger adults without life experience having any regards for ethics, morals, legality, or even thoughtful reasoning, and 2. evil creepy older fucks that migrated from Usenet’s darkest corners looking to take advantage of those kids, together who created the most fucked up collection of forums with the some of most vile and evil content possible because moderation was just not done. It fucked up a lot of social radars for the young people that became engrossed the chan-troll lifestyle and community.
I even attribute it to why we have Qanon grandmas now, the Q conspiracy made the jump from chan conspiracy trolling to my in-laws cousins believing its real because their Facebook feed is where they do all their best research. I even give it a lot of credit for the rise of Trump in 2015-2016, as I watched The_Donald on reddit explode from the chan kids pouring in with their obvious trolling, then the braindead right wingers embracing the literal crazy.
It sounds like you got into the worst subset of people within gamergate, the type on Kiwifarms too. But, that wasn’t the vast majority of people, my interaction with gamergate was just seeing what was on Twitter, and Youtubers like Thunderf00t.
It’s crazy when you discover that feminism was created by a man and woman in the UK in the 1970s and got co-opted by a bunch of psychopaths into the fucking terrible movement it is today.
They found that domestic violence is roughly 50-50. Meaning it’s caused sometimes by men and sometimes by women at fairly even pace.
The shitbag movement it is today only seeks to serve women and has vehemently denied men access to support.
Fuck the shitbags running the movement.
and got co-opted by a bunch of psychopaths into the fucking terrible movement it is today.
Interesting. So In this theory of yours about how movements work, who exactly owns and dictates the movements? The ‘gov’ment’? The neighbour you hate? A woman calling the cops on someone? celebrities? People with opinions and jobs? A person with a magaphone/picket sign? Someone posting online?
What a weird question. No one specifically owns and dictates the feminist movement, and op didn’t imply that there was. The answer you’re demanding is at the core of cultural movements evolve, which is an incredibly complicated topic and I think it’s kind of shitty to ask this pose this question like some obvious truth they’re missing or something.
Modern feminist culture is incredibly poisonous, because its values were gradually eroded from bad actors. The people who dictate movements are simply the more passionate and convincing people that choose to try to. If a movement happens to have pretty vague ideas about its goals, it’s actually very easy to undermine its greater purpose to more nefarious specific goals. Or rather, it’s hard to keep from happening, because often the more selfish and destructive people are the ones who seem most passionate.
Modern feminist culture is incredibly poisonous
What authors or activists do you think represents modern feminism and what makes upu think they are poisonous?
Imagine thinking that feminimism didn’t existed before 1970.
Hating women isn’t how to support men. Your post is toxic. You are toxic.
Sounds to me like he’s hating on those women who coopted the feminist movement specifically, and not on women in general.
And they think those are Brits in the 70’s…
someone getting helped isn’t a dig on someone else. That post is not addressing the issue. it’s nothing more than lateral infighting. Getting yourself heard isn’t poking holes in someone else’s life saver til you get what you want. That’s just being a psychopathic bully.
There is debate about how this is measured and the scientific methodology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#Gender_differences
Findings regarding bidirectional violence are particularly controversial because, if accepted, they can serve to undermine one of the most commonly cited reasons for female perpetrated IPV; self-defense against a controlling male partner.
They also stated if one examines who is physically harmed and how seriously, expresses more fear, and experiences subsequent psychological problems, domestic violence is significantly gendered toward women as victims.
As both Fiebert and Archer point out, although the numerical tally of physical acts in these studies has found similar rates of intimate partner violence amongst men and women, and high rates of bidirectionality, there is general agreement amongst researchers that male violence is a more serious phenomenon, primarily, but not exclusively, because male violence tends to inflict more psychological and physical damage than female violence.[3][79] Male violence produces injury at roughly six times the rate of female violence.[4] Women are also more likely to be killed by their male partners than the reverse (according to the US Department of Justice, 84% of spousal murder victims are female),[78] and women in general are more likely to be killed by their spouses than all other types of assailants combined.[80] In relation to this, Murray A. Straus has written “although women may assault their partners at approximately the same rate as men, because of the greater physical, financial, and emotional injury suffered by women, they are the predominant victims. Consequently, the first priority in services for victims and in prevention and control must continue to be directed toward assaults by husbands.”
Basically men right’s movement are using bad science. And if you are spreading the notion that feminism is just a bunch of sociopaths, then you are spreading misogyny / fascist propaganda.
Basically men right’s movement are using bad science.
Yes, bad science that considers mutual violence to be mutual violence, and not exclusively women defending themselves from violent men. Frankly, this is just another example of hyper/hypo-agency (basically men are treated as having more responsibility for their actions than they actually might and women are treated as having less - it’s the same tendency that plays into women getting lower bail when arrested, lower sentencing for the same crimes, that sort of thing, in this case that a woman engaging in IPV isn’t responsible for her violence, but rather responsibility for that violence belongs to the nearest man).
A fun followup for the reader: If women’s IPV is primarily defending themselves from violent men, what would that lead you to predict about rates of abuse in gay male and/or lesbian relationships, and does that prediction match reality?
Differences in physical harm basically come down to size/weight and if anyone is using a weapon. This basically means a petite woman should have open season to beat on her SO as much as she wants, but if he raises a hand in his own defense that makes him the abuser - he should just take it indefinitely. Or leave, because leaving an abusive partner is the easiest thing in the world if you aren’t a woman (see above about agency).
Fear expression is one of those things bound up in cultural nonsense - it’s unmanly to be scared of a girl, so most will process around that or just bottle it and refuse to express it. Related is why NISVS has a bad habit of getting results that suggest that women force men into non-consensual intercourse about as often as men do that to women in the previous year but then wildly different lifetime numbers - give it a few years where you’ve internalized the message that that’s not a thing that can happen to you because you’re a man and eventually you believe it.
Hell, I was sexually assaulted a couple of decades ago. Was playing driver for the group, had been up 22 hours because I’d had an early morning and we were doing a late night and when we made a stop for two of the people in the car that was going to take a bit, I leaned the seat back and napped with one other person in the vehicle (a woman). Woke up to her midway through performing a sex act on me, noticing the others were on the way back and her saying “I guess we’re more than just friends now.” Took me a decade to recognize that as sexual assault rather than just filing it away and trying to ignore it because that’s not something that happens to men.
The problem is that this topic is getting politicized by fascists. And some facts remain: 84% of spousal murder victims are female. This is what is happening today to overwhelming women. So if someone wants to post some emotionally manipulative meme to further fascist ideology, I’m not willing to engage in a debate about what men suffer. Because that is the strategy of the propaganda.
Campaigning for men’s rights is absolutely justified, but you have to do it far away from fascist propaganda.
Yes sexual dimorphism is the driving factor here, men on average have 60% more upper body strength and also longer arms. I could go around all day strangling women with my bare hands without much resistance. And that is why we have evolved social mechanisms to prevent that. That is not the same as discrimination against men.
In the meantime, men are still overwhelmingly murdering women.
LMFAO you are so propagandized
Way to go ignoring the entire history of feminism and its formation
This world sucks
I fucking hate having eyes when I read about this level of injustice. Fuck this world…
Yeap, nobody cares about men
Some people do. I do.
Society ingeneral does not…
There are shelters for men. You can find them for example here (this is for Canada): Men and Families Canada
1-866-887-0015 for male sexual abuse survivors toll-free 24/7
Menand Canada for further resources
Heads-up Guys Canada especially for mental health issues
This is a list based in Ontario with additional helplines and resources in Canada also for women, indigenous people, LGBTQ+ and other minorities.
There are shelters for men. You can find them for example here (this is for Canada): Men and Families Canada
There’s a certain irony here, as Men and Families Canada was started by the Canadian Association For Equality (CAFE). CAFE who got their first real taste of gendered bullshit when they tried to do a series of talks on men’s issues at the University of Toronto c. 2008, starting with one about suicide in men. Angry feminist protests ensued.
Ever seen the “Big Red” antifeminist meme? She’s a real person and she became a meme because of these protests, in which at one point she was basically shouting a Jezebel article at the crowd and calling anyone who tried to engage things like “fuckface”. She became the meme shorthand for “angry feminist” for a good while afterward as a consequence.
No one does.
They tell you to open up and talk about your emotions, to be vulnerable and they leave you cause you’re weak, and spread rumors about your sexuality (because straight men arent supposed to have feelings) when you do.
You ask for help, and you get ridiculed and called weak and told endless stories about how hard real victims/women have it.
Anything you do except suffer in silence is unacceptable.
And just by the gods make sure you don’t make your silent suffering to noticeable to impact others, because god damn then the ridicule and the “well ackshually”-ing about other peoples suffering will really start.
I think you need to re-evaluate the people you surround yourself with, friend.
Gonna have to find me a whole new intelligent species if you don’t want to be surrounded by a society that does this.
You can’t fix the world, but you can at least influence who you personally interact with. Easier said than done, but any little incremental improvement still means today is better than yesterday.
Hopefully the folks on here have been mostly good to you!
Society does those things.
Friends don’t.
You’re technically right. But the fundamental flaw in your logic is not obeying the #1 rule in everyone’s life (at least it should be) :
Keep toxic people out of your life, no matter their sex. Women can be the same pieces of shit that men can be. The statistical quantification or prevalence by trend doesn’t matter. Keep. Them. Out. Period. Family, friend, coworkers, significant others? Whatever. OUT!
And if you end up totally lonely by this? Well. Still better being totally lonely than being under the foot of arsehole just not to be lonely.
There are awesome people out there. You just got to weed out a legion of sand before finding a pearl. Or two.
Wisdoms of an old, misanthropic, eremitic fart.
Rarely do I ever hear such sage wisdom, well said!
Yeah, being a man hasn’t changed over the years.
Those who succumb to feminist bullshit aren’t rewarded; they’re chastised.
Has nothing to do with feminism.
Its this toxic idea of stoicism, that men arent supposed to be anything but strong and not feel anything but anger, thats the problem.
It actually has a lot to do with feminism.
As soon as men start behaving like women, they start being less attractive to women.
Women won’t tell you this, so you’ll have to figure it out yourself using your powers of observation.
Yeah, no.
Not even men?
Yep, the shitty thing is that it’s generally other men that are the problem when it comes to “less manly” things like getting abused by a woman. Since every man is “supposed” to be tough you’re generally thought of as weak if you admit to something like this. I say this as another guy.
Gay men do
That’s kind of a hyperbole, there are resources and advocates for men in Canada.
That’s awful. He deserves to be remembered. Thanks for posting. Are there shelters in place now in Canada?
I believe there is only one in the whole country
Kind of an unfortunate username for that comment 😐
No, this is not true. Why are you writing this? That’s the opposite of helping people.
Yeah, there is for example this in Hamilton. Men’s shelter Hamilton There are a few in Toronto and others in bigger cities.
People can find the closest to them for example on this site: Canadian centre for men and families
Fucking disgusting, poor guy was a literal hero and was spit on for it
This is just life in the slave racket. Abuse victims are denigrated, subjugated, and treated as the real threat to their community and not the abuser. They are treated like that because the society NEEDS most of its people to be abused and to tolerate it so they can be exploited throughout their lives without challenging their exploiters, or even worse, tearing down the system that benefits the oppressors.
Abuse victims who actively rebel or who try to help other victims jeopardize the system’s access to slaves, you see. So they have their spirits driven completely into the ground to stop others rising up against them.
Why do you think things like rape or domestic abuse are seldom punished? Or even murder to an extent? Especially since the government has had access to mass surveillance for over a decade and thus has the power to end such crimes completely?
The powers that be WANT this and NEED it for their system to survive.
That is the slave racket.
Damn that devolved into conspiracy bullshit real quick. Shame.
Is it conspiracy bullshit that megacorps and billionaires directly benefit from, and spend millions on, sowing division among the people?
It’s conspiracy bullshit to think that the government has nebulous access to all listening and recording devices, has an army of goons to review every second of every piece of footage, and when murders or rapes occur they actively ignore it because the division helps them profit.
It’s conspiracy bullshit to say that the billionaires and corporations are coming together to crush the spirits of the working class to have subservient slaves and that their entire existence is dependant on this apparent cycle of slavery through breaking down the hopes and dreams of the working class.
And yes, it’s conspiracy bullshit to think they’re directly spending money on sowing division in people. The only corporations that benefit on division work as military contractors or reporters.
In reality, they just don’t give a fuck about us. Politicians want to be re-elected with the least possible work done, corporations want to make the most money with the least possible cost, and billionaires want to keep as much money as they can until the heat death of the universe. Overwhelmingly, most aren’t malicious, just apathetic and trying to ascribe malice to everything, to think everyone is in the shadows conspiring against you is what sane people call paranoia.
That’s a complete misrepresentation of what the other commenter was saying.
It’s conspiracy bullshit to think that the government has nebulous access to all listening and recording devices, has an army of goons to review every second of every piece of footage, and when murders or rapes occur they actively ignore it because the division helps them profit.
None of this was said or implied.
And yes, it’s conspiracy bullshit to think they’re directly spending money on sowing division in people.
Why? Isn’t that the purpose of Rupert Murdoch’s?
“None of this was said or implied”
Really? Then why mention mass surveillance like it matters then? If they can’t actually go through all the data it means fucking nothing.
Isn’t that the purpose of Rupert Murdoch’s?
Gee wizz what was one of the two industries I listed that actually do profit off of divi- OH YEAH The News!
I represented their arguments exactly as they were laid out and stipulated my position accurately. They’re a conspiracy nutcase that thinks everyone in power is out to get them and the only people who actually benefit off spending money to divide people are the guys making guns and the guys recording it. Period.
Okay, let me spell this out like you are a four year old then:
The claim is that the government has the power to stop abuse en masse and improve life for everyone, but doesn’t, because they benefit from it.
The NSA program (which has been well-known for over a decade) is an example of that.
I represented their arguments exactly as they were laid out and stipulated my position accurately.
LMFAO no you’re not; you’re going off on a completely different tangent about the system as a whole instead of addressing my main claim, specifically how domestic abuse is allowed in order to maintain it, and you’re doing it because you perceive any negative talk against the system as an existential threat to it.
You only address a claim literally everyone else on Lemmy makes: that corporations actively exploit and abuse their workers, and you label it as conspiracy shit.
And you do it because I’m right and you know it, people are realizing it, and that inconveniences and threatens you.
You are exactly the kind of motherfucker who keeps the slave racket going. Because fuck them kids. Fuck them abuse victims. You ordered your Big Mac five minutes ago and you want it NOW
Slave racket? That’s a severe overexaggeration. Can we please not use such loaded and extremist words for the issue of male DV victims?
It applies to all abuse victims, not just males
I legit can’t tell if you’re trolling. lol
This is just life in the slave racket. Abuse victims are denigrated, subjugated, and treated as the real threat to their community and not the abuser. They are treated like that because the society NEEDS most of its people to be abused and to tolerate it so they can be exploited throughout their lives without challenging their exploiters, or even worse, tearing down the system that benefits the oppressors.
This is absolutely true. It may ring strange to the ears of some people because we’ve had Me Too since some years ago, but what did usually happen to a woman abused by someone in a position of power 20 years ago? How often would they have gotten justice? The same happens today if you’re victimized by a religious institution in a very religious community, by your boss in a workplace where everyone is scared of unionizing, or in a household in a community where most people would lean towards disbelieving you or ignoring the issue.
I’m going to go ahead and say that most people, when faced with very clear warning signs of someone else being abused, choose to do nothing about it because they’re cowards. We absolutely need better systems to deal with these situations, but given that they do not exist yet, individual acts of bravery save people from getting their lives broken. Please think about this next time you think someone close to you may be suffering.
