Yeah because I’d like to continue my $40k lifestyle instead of being forced to starve in a communist utopia.
Everyone knows, when Workers share tools rather than using tools owned and controlled by 1 dude, everyone is forced to starve. You can tell because tools have mystical qualities and influence the minds of whoever owns them, that’s why it’s better to only have 1 evil Capitalist, than have everyone be evil and also starve.
The problem here is “no one deserves a yacht”.
That’s what makes this communist utopianism.
Denmark is a drastically better place to live than the United States. Your life would be better if you had been born there.
Who benefits by hiding this fact from you?
And in Denmark is that a result of them making it illegal to own yachts?
The original quote is “Temporarily embarrassed capitalists,” which I think says a lot more about where we are.
It’s not that nobody deserves a yacht, it’s that capitisim gives yachts to the wrong people. My middle school librarian deserves a yacht, my 9th grade science teacher deserves a yacht, Jefferson Bezoar does not deserve a yacht.
It’s not that Bezes doesn’t deserve a yacht. It’s that he doesn’t deserve 176.9 million of them. If all money in the US was distributed equally then everyone in the US could have a small yacht. But of course we can’t be ignoring the rest of the world.
If money was distributed equally among adults in the US, everyone would make around $90k/year income. Not enough to afford a yacht. Not even enough to afford a house in some parts of the country. That’s kind of mind blowing to me.
And it would last just one generarion, because that amount of money would not be generared if not for those suckers hoarding money
However, if that’s to every adult, then couples would be making $180k combined, with which they might be able to save up for a yacht or a house
My household income is $180k and we are definitely not yacht rich, and our house is very modest. I’m in one of the most affordable cities in the US.
Woah hold on there, it’s not like the Bible (that they point to as the source of authority e.g. that is why what Israel does is “good”) says “the worker deserves their wages”, or “treat the immigrant and poor among you as your own”, or “whatsoever you do to the least of these, it’s like you are doing it directly to me”, or even more foundational basics like “show kindness to people”… right?
The effects of brainwashing are quite strong. We need to find a way to get even stronger if we want to overcome.
They’re called guns
I mean that is how America was first founded, but it definitely was not ONLY those. The real enemy (mostly) isn’t people, but ideas. And even framing the issue as “us” vs. “them” smacks more of conservative divisive thought that distracts from finding real solutions.
The hard part is that it is SO much easier to destroy than to create. And occasionally you need to do both.
“For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
Ephesians 6:12
Precisely.
Also Revelation 3:15-16 where Jesus says that He will spit lukewarm people out of His mouth, lamenting that they were neither hot nor cold.
Also James 2:19 citing how even demons “believe in God”, and tremble in fear as a result.
Also Matthew 18:6 better a millstone be hung around someone’s neck and be thrown into the depths of the sea than to lead a little one stray.
Also 2 Tim 3 having the outward appearance of godliness but denying the power thereof.
Also Matthew 24:24 about false teachers.
And there are TONS of verses saying to never add to the Bible - not Christ and vote Republican, or even simply vote along with Pro-Life policies (to the exclusion of all else). In fact there are several verses about who to judge, and also who to not judge - hint: judge the Christians but do not set up to be judges of the secular e.g. 1 Corinthians 5:12 the extraordinarily simple & plain language:
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
I wish most Evangelical Christians could - or rather would - read the Bible, rather than cite it as the reason/justification for the most heinous actions of murder, avarice, abuse, and so on. Ignoring everything that Trump does while inventing the most trivial of excuses to investigate Hunter Biden (fine… investigate him if we must, but in that case shouldn’t we also investigate Trump’s family too? especially since they were not merely family but he had them working inside the actual WH?).
Hey I have another verse btw: “Test everything against what you know to be true”. I stand with atheists, yes and some Christians too, and Muslims, and whoever it is that will actually be decent to one another. Whatever words are used, the actions define the person.
I was with you until you had to go and make it about politics.
Matthew 7:1-5: “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
True Christianity is not about using the Bible to whack others over the head with for misbehaving, it’s about working on yourself first and foremost. A very important part that too many people seem to forget is that Jesus did not just talk the talk, he walked the walk.
Judging a politician fairly and accurately is an extremely difficult job because we do not know them personally, and almost all the information we have about them has gone through many levels of filters (journalists, editorial boards, our social circle, etc.) which often tend to either leave out certain details or amplify and exaggerate them based on whether they agree with this politician or not. And just like the politician themselves, each of the people in each of the layers is a sinner, just like you and me.
So by all means, vote for the guy you think best represents your interests, but be careful about condemning others for choosing someone else because they don’t share the same judgement. They might know something you don’t know, or they might just be confused and propagandized, but if they’re you’re neighbors, it’s far more likely that you might one day come to depend on them than it is for your favorite politician to become dependent on you personally.
I used to think as you did. However, keep reading forward in Matthew, all the way to the end of the chapter (and beyond!) - in particular verses 15–20 are extremely relevant, I promise you, whether you want to call it “politics” or whatever, they are the literal words of Jesus and worth considering, imho:
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
You seem to be telling me never to judge, or at least to be careful doing so. But we ARE commanded to judge! Not the “world” - i.e. what right do I have to tell some woman that she cannot have an abortion? again, 1 Corinthians 5:12 explains that she is to be left to God to deal with, not me - but our “chosen leaders”, THOSE are PRECISELY the people that we are COMMANDED to judge!? (and not, “if we feel up to it”, it is the command that is given so… I guess we better GET up to it then, as in if we need a year or ten of training, let’s get busy doing that then?)
Verses 21-23 also make a hella good point as well:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
I watched a video in 2021, I can never find it again but I think it may have been in Montana or some neighboring state, and in it a literal, currently-sitting iirc, Senator was speaking behind the literal pulpit of that church, it having been handed over to him for that purpose. He said that COVID was not real, and that although he was young, he had talked with 90+ year old senior Senators and thus THEY KNEW what was what, and that it was all a media hype - thus they should only ever pay attention to Fox News that told the “real story”, while every other station was lying to them. I bet it made sense to that congregation b/c they were a rural, not densely populated area, and 2020 passed leaving them relatively unaffected. However, this was a couple weeks prior to the Delta wave hitting… and he was telling them to ignore the factual news. I will never know how many people died as a result of this one person spreading such blatant misinformation. If he has since repented and stepped down from his position of authority, then that’s wonderful… but it still would not go back into the past and change what he did, nor does it abrogate the responsibility of that pastor who handed over that pulpit, meant to convey the authority of the Word of God, but which was used that day to spread political (Worldly) propaganda (and falsehoods at that even!). i.e., it is not me bringing politics into this, I am stating that politics has already been brought into this by many wayward churches. Just look at the statistics of how many young people are leaving religion behind in droves… and for good measure, b/c much of that “religion” is false, with much having been added, and some rather important bits taken away as well.
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
I pray that you will consider these words of God. You do not have to justify yourself to me - I am not your keeper - but you WILL be called to an account, and I would like you to receive blessings and be rich rather than admonishment and be poor. That is the measure that we ALL are held to, hence why I stated it - if it were not so then I would not have said it.
Also, may I point out from the very words that you chose to quote … that passage of Matthew 7:1-15 never says to not remove the speck from your brother’s eye. It says to FIRST remove the plank, then SECOND, after you can see clearly, remove the speck. Remaining in our ignorance and simply “not judging” anyone was never an option - both the plank and the speck have no place in His Kingdom. Also, please do not skip over the final verse that I left you with: “Test everything against what you know to be true”. I do not ask you to believe ME, but I am also saying to not believe a politician who, from ther fruits, have shown themselves to be of the world rather than of God. If they were confused… well, again, these are not MY words, but the very words of scripture condemns such a one: again Matthew 18:6 better a millstone be hung around someone’s neck and be thrown into the depths of the sea than to lead a little one stray. Maybe they should have gone to school a bit more, or apprenticed underneath someone for a bit longer, but when you take on a LEADERSHIP role, and for heaven’s sake especially when you choose to stand behind a literal PULPIT… that is supposed to mean something? And it seems that it does, to God at least, although free will I suppose means that we get to choose if we will go along with Him or not. i.e., 1+1=2, not whatever we want it to be, not even if we pray for it to be otherwise while asking God to set aside His very own Will that He created the universe to implement. Somehow even the atheists know that, and are afraid to go against it, while Evangelical Christians these days have spun up a nice story to absolve people of any responsibility for wrong-doing, if we only “meant well”, or perhaps “didn’t know”. But God isn’t Santa Claus, and hell isn’t fiction - this shit is life and/or death and moreover, of the most important meanings of those words even: eternal.
At least, that’s my two cents:-).
that passage of Matthew 7:1-15 never says to not remove the speck from your brother’s eye. It says to FIRST remove the plank, then SECOND, after you can see clearly, remove the speck.
Yes, that is correct, and that’s what I was trying to tell you, to judge yourself first and foremost, and only once you’ve found yourself without fault, to go on and judge others. Seeing how you mislabeled this as “Matthew 7:1-15” when it is really only verses 1-5 (and I labeled it correctly, I double-checked), perhaps there’s still some work you oughta do on yourself, just saying ;)
As for Matthew 18:6, again, that’s a reminder for YOU (and me) to be careful about choosing our words so we do not lead anyone, especially children, astray with any false logic or arguments. It’s saying that God’s punishment for those who do this is more severe than having a millstone hung around your neck and be thrown into the sea, so there is no need for US to add to it. See also John 8:7 (“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”).
As for the false prophets, I don’t think it’s too far fetched to just assume that ANY politician is more likely than not to be one of them. After all, it seems that the majority of them is mostly in the game for personal gain, as they invariably all seem to get rich off it while you and I pay the bill via our taxes. Has any of them ever kept their promises? Or isn’t expecting them to solve your problems for you kinda like… picking grapes from thornbushes?
Just to be clear, I’m not claiming I have all the answers, I am just trying to give you another perspective (see Proverbs 27:17). But the more I read the Bible, the more I see it to be about personal responsibility than anything else. Yes, most of the people in almost ANY church are sinners, THAT’S WHY THEY’RE THERE. As Matthew 9:12 says, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.”
Take care and be well, my friend.
an old client always said:
“i’m working on my second million…”
…
“i gave up on the first one.”
“I AM A MILLIONAIRE, I AM A MILLIONAIRE, I AM-”
[smash cut to an apartment like mine that leaks when it rains too hard]
My husband and I own a house, but I’d give it up in a second for living in an apartment, if it meant housing for all
I’d wait in longer lines for healthcare, if it meant healthcare for all
I’d eat foods I don’t much care for, if it meant food for all
I’d wait at a bus depot or train station, if it meant equitable transportation and saving the planet
It’s hard for me to fathom that there are people who wouldn’t do the same, who are willing to let others suffer for the tiniest bit of potential luxury
And before someone comes in with “lOoK wHaT a GoOd PeRsOn YoU aRe,” I’m really not. It doesn’t take a good person to not wish suffering on others.
The lines are still long with private insurance, you’re not getting in for specialty procedures very quickly no matter what payment method you use. I say this as someone who does specialty neurodiagnostic procedures in the US. We don’t care if you can pay or you have this insurance or that, there’s a line everywhere and unless you’re coming in through the ED, you have to wait in it.
Thank you. This is also an important point.
My comment was more of a thought experiment, since none of the things I listed actually require sacrificing the other.
I’m not trying to start an argument or take away from your point, just trying to preempt the inevitable conservative arguments against universal healthcare.
Yeah, I fully understand, and I appreciate that. It’s always an important point to make!
This means you’re a good person but these trade-offs are false dichotomies. None of it is necessary to provide these services to all. We already have incredibly long wait times for healthcare in our ruthlessly for-profit system. The only thing that keeps those services from everyone is the greed of the extremely wealthy and the stupidity of those who fall for their lies.
I’m well aware, but I’m saying even if it were true that we had to, it would be well worth it.
the irony is that we wouldn’t need to sacrifice much (if at all) for those benefits – in other words, you could be completely selfish and still have a better life
- US is sitting at 28 vacant homes per homeless person (city of Helsinki saved the country of Finland €15000 per person per year just by buying them a house)
- healthcare for all (and better quality) would cost us about 2/3 what we’re paying now
- we produce (and have) plenty of food for everyone but companies would rather throw it away if they can’t make a profit (John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath)
- better public transit means more convenience for everyone with the added benefits of better air quality, nicer neighborhoods, less wear-and-tear on infrastructure, cheaper commuting – !fuck_cars@lemmy.ml
but companies would rather throw it away if they can’t make a profit
Not just companies, I feel obliged to point out. The rot goes much deeper - independent farmers did the same at the time. The sickness is in society itself.
Nowadays we just pay farmers not to farm.
Just pointing out that independent farmers throw out food that is unprofitable to sell. It’s not like they’re greedy or something. When there’s a lot of food transportation costs mean you can lose money sending your food to market.
In that case no people are starving because food prices are very low. The problem in the Great Depression was that the conservative government didn’t want to intervene in the market and buy up the cheap food, so people did starve. This is part of the reason why conservatives lost power for twenty years.
Don’t forget that doing the bare minimum of simply wearing a mask when out and about during a global pandemic was too much for the majority of people to handle.
It wasn’t the majority
Minority of people.
I wouldn’t do those things, but we shouldn’t have to. We don’t have to give up quality medical care for everyone to have it. Or give up houses for everyone to have a place to live. The resources for these things are held by the ultra wealthy, not by the middle class.
You’re right about the healthcare thing, because we can just hire more medical professionals and give them better working conditions (including but not limited to pay).
Housing is different. Single family houses take up a lot of space. Space that necessarily reduces space available for other homes. You need to increase average housing density in order to be able to house everyone at a price that is affordable within a reasonable distance of opportunities for work and social activities.
Single family houses worked just great when we didn’t have 8 billion people. Density is a function of population too
Yes. And today they don’t work great. I’m living in today, and hope to plan to live in the future. I don’t plan to spend any more time living in the past, so I don’t advocate policies that might have worked in the past if they don’t also work in the future.
That said, the large single-family homes that dominate America and my own home country of Australia actually didn’t work “just great”. They created an over-reliance on the automobile, and by extension the fossil fuel industry. They ramped up rates of health problems relating to the fact that people get less exercise when they can’t walk or ride a bike to do basic errands. They isolated people from their sense of belonging to a community, and they stunted the growth in independence of children who now require to be driven by parents everywhere, rather than getting on their bikes and riding. The lawns that are synonymous with houses are also terrible ecologically.
So yes, if you look narrowly at it from a housing affordability standpoint, in the past, single family homes worked “just great”. But that’s not true today, and it was never true if you look at it from the broader societal impact.
Woah woah woah. That’s coMmuNiSM
Komrad, Do you think we can trick them by calling it Republic+?
I would love it if humanity allowed us to all live equally. If there wasn’t an overwhelming number of people that want to just take advantage of others who are willing to wait a little longer in line or give up luxuries for cheaper alternatives, it would be perfect.
Life, as beautiful as it can be, is also tainted by harsh realities. By all means, be charitable and kind when you can and help others to build a solid community. However, always be aware that there are also people that survive by draining the resources of others. As far as raw nature is concerned, both strategies are valid if it improves survival rates.
I can’t offer any magic solutions or even be a “perfect” person myself. Speaking from an animalistic point of view, my own survival depends on thinking about myself first and then the survival of my DNA second.
Thinking about the brutal realities of life is something I do often and balancing my needs with the needs of others is tough! If I die, or my resources are drained, I can’t support anyone else.
Humans are capable of great things and can work great together. Even one on one, most people are excellent to each other, actually.
Unfortunately, all it takes is a thin layer of anonymity to expose the worst in people. We see it online, in traffic and during times of crisis. Even now, people are more likely to express their real feelings and tell me that I am wrong or I am trying to be a “pseudo intellectual” in one case. Cool. That is within their rights but it doesn’t improve my outlook on society in any way.
This ain’t it, chief. The “bad” people you describe are few and far between and not doing any tangible amount of harm.
You know who’s really draining resources? The rich, landlords, CEOs. Hell, even suburbanites who live with 3-stall garages and Dodge Rams are draining more resources than the proverbial “welfare queens.”
That you see these people as what stands between us and equity instead of the people who are truly responsible is by design. It’s a sick, sick world. I’m well aware of the ill-intentioned people in this world, but they’re not the ones you’re describing in your comment.
You know who’s really draining resources? The rich, landlords, CEOs.
That’s mainly who I am referring to, btw. However, I do have a much more grim view on nature itself.
Its perfectly natural to see the world through rose colored classes. Unfortunately, I have seen too much of what the common person is capable of and not just on TV. I really want to believe that everyone wants to do “the right thing” in this world. By the same token, “the right thing” has a million different definitions.
I simply accept that everyone is capable of both wonderful things and also horrific things. It doesn’t take much to push a completely sane person into insanity. As an extreme example, war can do that to people. As a simple example, someone getting served cold fries at restaurant can be just as transforming.
By no means am I saying that living your life in fear and paranoia is a normal and healthy thing. It’s not. Everyone just needs to understand the best and worst of any situation.
If anything, doing as I suggest in my top comment would drastically reduce things like violence and hoarding resources. While it’s true that we are capable of both good and bad, it is also true that inherently inequitable systems like capitalism and the state greatly exacerbate the bad.
Therefore, the proper way to address this is to replace our current unjust/inequitable systems with systems that provide basic needs to all.
As a simple example, someone getting served cold fries at restaurant can be just as transforming.
What.
And I believe what you say, in principle. However, people are still going to be people. Unless there is a massive shift in how an entire society thinks, a fair share is simply not enough for a lot of people.
Capitalism is just a symptom of the human condition. A lot of people desire power and control and will build empires to feed those desires. IMHO, this behavior is baked into our DNA at a very primal level. When we cannot get power and control ourselves, we tend to form hierarchies under people who do. Some societies are better at it than others but it always happens, one way or another.
To say a few simple steps will be reduce violence and resource hoarding is absolutely true. Unfortunately, I have to circle back to the previous paragraph: People will always desire more power and more control and will squabble over the most trivial things in an attempt to maintain what power and resources they may already have.
Again, I wholeheartedly agree that we can improve our own lives by helping those around us. It helps to surround yourself with people of a similar mindset, actually. However, I choose not to minimize the hell that is mother nature and what has shaped life on this planet for millions of years.
What
Have you never seen anyone completely loose their shit over the most trivial things? I have. Plenty of times. While I intended to use a made up example, I guess weirder shit has actually happened: https://abc7ny.com/mcdonalds-worker-shot-matthew-webb-michael-morgan-brooklyn/12100882/
People are as brilliant as they are stupid.
I’ve seen people lose their shit. I’ve worked in customer service. Most of it stems from the stress of living under capitalism and the pressures of a hierarchical state.
There’s a lot to unpack here, but I’d urge you to read Mutual Aid by Peter Kropotkin. Even just the first chapter or two, I think would change your opinion about human nature. I’ve experienced many setbacks, but I’ve seldom been so cynical to think that human nature is inherently selfish and greedy. TL;DR of that book, our ability to evolve relies more on mutual aid than on power and control. This applies even to other animals, when you start to look at it. The book cites multiple examples.
If you’re not up to reading that, then AudibleAnarchist has been uploading an audiobook:
This is tangential and anecdotal, but I’ve been beaten, abused, stolen from, manipulated, raped, humiliated, bullied, jailed … and I still don’t believe this crap is human nature. The kind of society I (and many others) envision can be a reality. I know it can.
That last paragraph is horrible. I mean that in the most supportive and sympathetic ways possible and I am sorry anyone has had to go through that. If I could hug you now, I would hug you now.
Unfortunately, I believe some people are just assholes. Same as you, I have been stolen from, bullied and abused as well. Even our combined experiences would be a cakewalk for some other more unfortunare people. In some ways, I am actually sympathetic to the people who feel the need to do those things to others.
Again, people are capable of great things! However, my experiences have not left me with fear or hate but rather, an abundance of caution. My opinions are just the summation of my experiences, after all. There are very few people that gave a shit when I was in my darkest of places, excluding some family. Quite honestly, other people have their own issues to deal with and my problems are not their concern.
The peudointellectual appears.
It’s not an intellectual conversation.
If a pseudointellectual could hang with actual intellectuals, they’d just be an intellectual.
Would love to own a yacht but only if I had enough money to pay people to do maintenance. Owning even a much smaller boat is fucking annoying.
would it even make sense to own a yacht on your own? how much will one person realistically use one
