“oppressive govts that use socialism to hide their atrocities” => welcome to European politics.
All of those ‘Socialist’ governments in the EU, with the highest quality of life, highest quality of happiness, and some of the least wealth disparity in the world, are committing atrocities against their own people?
Some of these governments probably commit atrocities in countries other than their own, but that would be because of Capitalistic and Imperialistic policies, not Socialistic ones.
“against their own people” is a chauvinist attitude. Why would it be particularly bad to oppress people in “their own” country vs other countries? The only way this logic works is if you subscribe to nationalism and are projecting it onto others.
EU countries overlap with NATO, an aggressive military force that, among other things, destroyed Libya, turning it from the highest HDI African country into a hellscaoe with open air slave markets fought over by warlords. Would it be worse for that to happen to Germany?
EU countries also still have their own neocolonies. Sahel countries are still trying to kick out the French, who saddled them with debt and still controls their banking systems. Would it be worse if that were happening to French people?
Finally, there are no socialist countries in the EU, nor “socialistic” countries. Every EU country is run for and by capiralists and by capitalist parties. They have social safety nets left over from the cold war when they were combatting and coopting communists and they are now being slowly dismantled by capital.
I think you missed my point, entirely. I wasn’t saying that governments committing atrocities in other countries versus their own people were any different, morally speaking.
I was simply pointing out that the quality of life for the working class, and low amount of wealth disparity, etc in this country is largely due to Socialist policies keeping Capitalism in check, and also pointing out that Capitalist policies cause atrocities, in general.
This was in response to the comment saying that countries were hiding atrocities behind the banner of Socialism.
Atrocities of any kind are abhorrent and I agree that they need to be denounced. I also agree with pretty much everything else that you said. Socialism is near dead and dying in Europe. I just think that the sprinkle of Social policies that is left in the EU still holds back Capitalism from being quite as horrible as it could be.
I think you missed my point, entirely. I wasn’t saying that governments committing atrocities in other countries versus their own people were any different, morally speaking.
Then why say “their own people”? It doesn’t make sense. Parent didn’t use that qualifier. Maybe you used it because it is so often used in combination with the other terms? Either way, I am singling out this qualifier because it is a way that PR and propagandistic terms color our thinking. It does not mean I think you were being malicious.
I was simply pointing out that the quality of life for the working class, and low amount of wealth disparity, etc in this country is largely due to Socialist policies keeping Capitalism in check, and also pointing out that Capitalist policies cause atrocities, in general.
But these countries don’t have socialist policies! They are capitalist countries run by capitalists and capitalist parties. I already described the causes behind their social safety nets.
This was in response to the comment saying that countries were hiding atrocities behind the banner of Socialism.
I understand. I actually interpreted parent as being critical of the Eastern bloc, but I didn’t comment on this.
Atrocities of any kind are abhorrent and I agree that they need to be denounced.
I agree in the abstract sense but just like with “their own people”, what gets called an atrocity, how its veracity is established, and how often it enters discourse are all subject to the propaganda we are all immersed in. In addition, the context in whicj atrocities are “denounced” matters. Were the people tallying up lists of Saddam’s crimes in 2003 just denouncing atrocities like good, empathetic humans? Were they not helping to build consent for a much worse invasion? What about the US’ genocidal sanctions on the country for the prior decade plus? We, of course, do not live in a vacuum and what we are told to denounce is often aligned with ruling class agendas.
The overall topic of this thread is that baby leftists want to keep criticizing and denouncing the targets of US empire that they are told to hate. They have not engaged critically with the denunciations themselves and when others do so they begin insulting and deflecting. And they certainly don’t exist within any project to actually achieve anything against atrocities, because if they did they would be laser-focused on their own country where they can do actual organizing work, which will largely be in the US and Europe.
As an example of liberals’ having their attention to atrocities dictated by think tanks and imperialist media, we can look to Yemen. I could not get liberals to care about the US-backed bombing campaigns and US blockade of Yemen. Schoolbuses bombed, weddings bombed, basic civilian infrastructure bombed out to attack food, water, and electricity. Aid rotting on ships because the US prevented them from docking and unloading for 8+ months. Nobody even talked about Yemen in the US or Europe. Not regularly. You don’t see lemmy.worlders bringing it up all the time as atrocities you should denounce every time the topic of the US itself comes up. Every time target countries of US empire are mentioned, hiwever, it is time for kneejerk denunciation ans bad faith insults at anyone with a modicum of understanding of geopolitics.
I also agree with pretty much everything else that you said. Socialism is near dead and dying in Europe.
It’s gone. It fell with the USSR and then NATO-led balkanization of Yugoslavia. Europe is capitalist.
I just think that the sprinkle of Social policies that is left in the EU still holds back Capitalism from being quite as horrible as it could be.
I might agree but I frame it differently. The social policies remain because they are too popular to remove, but capitalism is eating away at them from multiple directions. Privatization is everywhere, as are benefit cuts to siphon into militarization. The latter is only possible due to fearmongering over Russia. But more dangerously, European countries oppress the left, such as banning communist parties or even expressions of solidarity with Palestine. That results in “the discourse” being dominated by liberald and protofascists. But the liberals are presiding over declines in conditions due to capitalism, so when they lose popularity, protofascists gain it. This will produce repeated one-two punches of austerity, dismantling social programs, and scapegoating marginalized people. And all while the US drains Europe’s industrial base. Europe’s utility as a forward base against the USSR is gone and they are now a bloodbag for US’ vampires.
What you’re missing there is that the Europe you describe is only a small sub-set of countries. The rest are committing atrocities against their own people in the form of continuously increasing the number of people living close to poverty and by enacting policies that ended up making majority of the youngest generations unable to buy/rent homes and/or eventually have children.
Be sure to consider that the past examples of US imperialism were widely supported by Americans just like you. In hindsight, we can often see more clearly since we aren’t immersed in the contemporary propaganda.
Really, Masses, Elites, and Rebels: The Theory of “Brainwashing” should be required reading for anyone considering themselves a Leftist.
Thanks for sharing!
No problem! 🫡
Yet you are completely missing the point. Oh, the enlightend one!
You are banned from /c/hexbear
It’s easy, mmmm’kay!
Lemmy.ml is a default instance, so many newbies start there and find out how the admins operate there. So that’s a funny thing with lemmy
I chose it as my first instance since I wanted a leftist one. Oh boy did I earn an experience
Basically horseshoe theory
Good
Fixed it .
Based & Redpilled
Weren’t you saying you ML mfs don’t support authoritarianism like a week ago?
Why is this fixing it? Both memes work, they dont contradict each other
Average ml user
Just ignore the part you don’t like because it makes you feel bad. Typical.
Why not just change it to “imperialism is bad” lmao
Unless there’s some good imperialism somewhere…
“Quit hitting yourself, quit hitting yourself, quit hitting yourself”
How is this a shitpost? there’s no shit!
Its a magnet for shitpost comments, comrade
Wait, are you saying “both sides bad?” “Both sides are the same?” Am I hearing this right?
Look, if either Xi Jinping or Donald Trump is going to emerge as leader of a global hegemon, then any and all criticism of Xi Jinping is the exact same as being a Trump supporter. When are we going to do something about all these secret Trump supporters pretending to be leftists?
At least, that’s what I’d say if I accepted the absurd logic of lesser evilism the liberals were constantly berating everyone with.
Silence, imperialist.
No u.
Both sides can be bad in different ways. Just because both sides are considered bad, doesn’t mean they are the same.
Correct, whether it’s about countries or parties.
No, they are saying one side being bad doesn’t make “the other side” perfect or immune to criticism
The US participating in the Palestinian genicide does not excuse Russia invading Ukraine. The US invading Iraq does not excuse nationalists in India attacking Muslims
It is not the same thing, and western imperialism doesnt make non-western imperialism ok. Even if it is a lot worse
Right, and what I’m saying is that by that very same logic, Trump supporting the Palestinian genocide doesn’t justify the democrats supporting the Palestinian genocide - they should not be considered immune to criticism either, and when people criticize them, they should not be assumed to be supporting the other side.
Right, so I was replying to you trying to make the meme into a " both sides bad" or “both sides are the same”-argument, pointing out how it is not
I find your answer to my reply irrelevant to the point I was making
It’s not saying that both sides are bad? You sure about that one, chief?
Nothing is as black and white as it is in your head.
Grow up 🫶
Non sequitor. Where did I say anything was black and white?
imperialism against imperialists is good
Oh, you reminded me to check out Yanis Varoufakis’s latest videos!
He talks of imperialism and the differences between China and the USA.
Thanks for the meme!
For those interested: https://lemmy.world/post/23027760
Why is that post heavily downvoted?
Your instance is full of incurious liberals
That i agree with
Subscribed.
No no, you don’t understand. America bad, therefore anything against America is automatically good. It doesn’t matter who it is or what they do.
Ah yes, the Noem Chomsky. Famously when he was defending Pol Pot’s regime.
100% this.
As a Venezuela ln who’s against Yankee imperialism and our current oppressive “”“”“Socialist”“”“” government, I approve this message.
Would be nice having the “real socialists” condemn the fake socialists
We do though, look up BadEmpanada
literally Canada :(
This is literally why the LGBTQ+ community trusts neither the left nor the right, because historically both sides have brutalized them.
That’s cuz LGBTQ+ attack all of them with their fake victim narcissism, the REAL question is why would anyone sane tolerate their nastiness Hell even LGBTQ+ attack other LGBTQ+
What do you mean by „fake victim narcissism“?
Same as the disability community.
Corporate leftists, the “libruls”, are right wing political actors pretending to be left wing for a variety of reasons. Supporting business over people is fascism and the liberals are fascists who don’t mean to be.
Supporting business over people is fascism and the liberals are fascists who don’t mean to be.
Fascism - Any right-wing, authoritarian, nationalist ideology characterized by centralized, totalitarian governance, strong regimentation of the economy and society, and repression of criticism or opposition.
I understand your sentiment, but please stop pulling shit out of your ass.
The LGBTQ+ community is not a monolith and you do not speak on behalf of us.
“NOOOOOOO you have to pick one of the two teams or you’re a RADICAL CENTRIST!!!”
Lol, this place has changed its tone a lot now that the US election is over
Not really the point, but that’s a funny little oxymoron; to be a radical anything you’d need to be actually committed to something so much that you want to do actual ground work to further a cause.
It is a real thing but the term radical is used a bit different
The radical in the term refers to a willingness on the part of most radical centrists to call for fundamental reform of institutions.[1] The centrism refers to a belief that genuine solutions require realism and pragmatism, not just idealism and emotion
So not radical as in extremist action but radical change
Radical centrism:
^needs ^more ^jpeg, ^I ^know
You could’ve gone with Radial centrism though
Now hang on. If you pretend the two teams are the same and refuse to pick a side because neither is perfect so it doesn’t matter, you are an enabler of fascism.
You can support a team while acknowledging their flaws. Refusing to play because the better team isn’t perfect is either naive or malicious.
Once you talk about “both teams”, you imply there are only two instead of supporting those who to this day resist all states
If you’re talking about a presidential election, there are two teams. The rest of the time, you should work on your own team, but when the big race is happening, there are only two viable contenders.
Shouldn’t you be then using some amendment to restore democracy? Because that surely isn’t democracy.
My preference is the first amendment, although progress has been slow.
The meme is about US imperialism versus (supposedly) Chinese imperialism. And the election is over, not every meme is about that anymore.
So the two teams are China and America?
Yes, it’s an anti tankie meme
Or you can not join a team and evaluate things individually based on their merits
That’s what I do.
Not surprisingly, the Republicans are always the worst and the only local opposition that has a slim chance of winning are Dems so I end up voting a straight Dem ticket despite refusing to register for the party. If there was an independent with a chance of winning I would consider them, but haven’t seen any on the local positions.
Yeah sure that works, unless one team is the Republican party.
You still have to commit to an actual decision when the times come. Adjusting each cycle is what everyone should be doing, knowing that each person will likely stay where they’re at because why wouldn’t they?
If you like being ineffective at driving change, then yes this is an option. Otherwise, you’ll have to work through one of the gate keepers.
You do have to take the context of power structures around you into account, but you do not have to assimilate into tribalism to be an effective voter.
Oh, absolutely true. Never call yourself a Democrat. Don’t join them, use them.
Is this intentional misinterpretation for mischief purposes, or is this your best?
No, I’m saying there are “radical centrists” who pretend they are above the fray and claim both sides are equally flawed, while invariably showing up to vote for conservatives.
