Lemmy’s continuing the progression from liberal privilege to MRA “activism”. smh.
Saw this comment and thought I was on Reddit.
I think you got lost along the way.
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Hot take bruh
“woe is men” isn’t a comparison to women.
Women are victimized by the patriarchy in many ways. Men are victimized by the patriarchy in many ways.
Everyone suffers from the patriarchy. We need to dismantle the patriarchy both by fighting our own fights AND by supporting eachother.
We don’t win by dismissing eachother’s pains as invalid or less important.
I agree, as a woman who very much cares about inclusive feminism. By silencing men who talk about their issues/pains, we push them further away. By pretending like men don’t have worries/fears/needs/wants, we’re doing them a disservice.
The Patriarchy hurts everyone. Men need to know that if theyre abused by a woman, it doesnt make them “less of a man”, nor is it “their fault”. No one deserves abuse. They, as victims deserve to be acknowledged and handled with care, and have their abuse investigated/taken seriously just as much as a woman does.
There’s room enough for us all to be equal.
We aren’t silencing men. We are asking men to extend empathy to women too and not just other men. Men only caring about men is just another patriarchal tool.
I dont think men *don’t * extend empathy to us. I think Ive seen a hard shift from my parents (Gen X, they were young when they had me), to my Millenial husband and my friends. The vast majority (that Ive met, admittedly), seem like they’re on our side.
But it feels like theyre also trying to be like “Hey, we’re dealing with shit too”, and we’re turning around and being like “Not right now” and its been “Not Right Now” for 30+ years.
Are men perfect? Nah, but neither are we, and we have to make space for them to be validated as victims/people with struggles too. And we can also remind them to call out each other when theyre incorrect, and we need to do the same thing for each other which is what Im trying to do now.
Dont be the reason that Lib women get an even worse rep than we already have. We can discuss both perspectives!
I once saw a gif on Reddit of a little girl being forcibly kissed by a little boy (both about 6), and she shoved him off and he looked sad. The entire thousands of comments focused on the little boys first rejection. No one even noticed it was the little girl’s first sexual assault. She even wiped the kiss off, reminiscent of victims cleaning themselves after assaults.
When I pointed this out, people were angry. How dare I suggest that little boy is a monster. But I wasn’t. I was entirely focused on the little girl’s experience and I wasn’t advocating for anything relating to the boy. In fact, I think an appropriate “punishment” would be to explain to him to not touch people without asking etc. And that’s it.
But men were so unable to extend empathy to a girl, to a woman, that they literally couldn’t absorb this information or perspective take as her. This was like 3 years ago. It was astonishing. No, men do NOT empathize with women. Men empathize with themselves as an idealized version of who they would be as a woman - that’s projection by definition and is entirely how they feel entitled to control women and objectify them.
Everyone suffers from the patriarchy.
Can you define “patriarchy?” Once you do, can you understand how men have an advantage over women? Lol
men are empowered in a patriarchy by definition and women disempowered.
Are you not even trying to understand how toxic masculinity has forced men to shut up and swallow their feelings, has prevented them from pursuing passions for being “too girly”/not lucrative enough to provide for their family? How its pushed “strongman” narratives, and anything less than that is seen as “weaker/less than”? You cant see how male rape/abuse victims are treated differently than female rape/abuse victims?
Like, if you really cant open your eyes to how that may really affect someones mental health/quality of life, then I think you should do some work on learning empathy.
The 25 year old dude working at the gas station is not the reason the patriarchy is an issue. He’s struggling along with the rest of us, and we’re telling him he has nothing to complain about and has it easier. Thats not okay.
Yes, men are the real victims of the patriarchy
The patriarchy is hierarchy. Like all hierarchies, it’s pyramid shaped. It’s not a rectangle with all men on top and all women in the bottom. It’s a SMALL group of rich men oppressing everyone else. Sure MOST men are given more “power” than MOST women in the structure. That’s the deal the small group of oppressors gave to keep their power. They also give power to strong women who toe the line. But the idea that most men aren’t oppressed in the patriarchy is utterly ridiculous. You seriously think every man you see around you is secretly part of a cabal trying to keep you and other women down? You think that they have no problems, no burdensome expectations placed on them by the patriarchy to keep them in place? That they benefit from toxic masculinity instead of suffer by it? I’m sorry but you have a very dark view of 50% of the population if you think they’re the oppressor class and you’re in the victim class.
We’re all victims of the patriarchy unless we’re old rich white men. The only thing that separates us is the degree of victimisation.
Define “patriarchy.”
When did the US ban spousal rape? When did women get the right to vote? When did women get the right to divorce or have credit cards?
Maybe men are pushed to the extremes because of people like you shitting all over them when there is a post about men’s issues.
Men, being in charge of the patriarchy, aren’t pushed by women. They are pushed by themselves and other men. This is patriarchy 101 and part of why you all sealioning about male abuse isn’t taken seriously anymore unless you are specifically talking about your abuse experience for emotional support. Try advocating for policies to help abuse victims instead of trying to find a creative way to say ‘women bad’ without getting flamed.
Women aren’t bad. People who belittle and dismiss victims of abuse are bad. Nice strawman though!
And people who pretend to care about abuse just to abuse women? Are they bad?
No idea what the hell you’re talking about anymore but clearly, abusing anyone is bad.
I’m sorry that someone apparently hurt you in the past, but that’s not my fault or my problem. You should seek help from a therapist instead of just blindly lashing out at anyone who wasn’t born the same sex as you.
Lol yet again a man shows a PROFOUND lack of empathy. Par for the course. Yes, I’m hysterical and not smiling and catering to your feelings, so I must see a therapist and be medicalized. More sexism.
Don’t attack a whole gender? What did you all just do by electing Trump?
Not gonna lie. You’re doing an awful job at advocating. I understand what you’re saying but you’re doing it in such an offputting way that I have to wonder if you even care or if this is just you venting.
Being justified and right doesn’t mean you can act however you want in the name of that just cause. If you’re not likeable then no one is going to listen to you.
I refuse to be performative in my speech. Go police another woman.
Go police another woman.
The fact that this was your response only demonstrates that you are an unserious person with nothing of value to add, and are in fact part of the problem.
This is what you’re doing.
No.
Vulnerable narcissists make up a large portion of incels
Gr8 b8 m8
This one’s low hanging fruit tho, need to try a bit harder
So you are okay that men can be abused?
Most people are. We deserve it for some reason.
This will keep happening as long as the left treats any acknowledgement of mens issues as a moral failing
You are a problematic man.
I dont think he is problematic .it seem pretty correct that the left doesn’t offer solution to men actually.
This statement clearly indicate you spend too much time on Xitter. Time to go meet a few real people and talk to them.
I’ve seen some good folks in the past few years. Like That Dang Dad and F.D Signifier. But I’m just on YouTube. I’m sure I miss lots of hate.
F.D is great actually. Need more like him.
What left is doing that?
How? By refusing to accept that female on male abuse is a thing. Go find a mainstream leftist place and bring it up. See what happens
We’re in one right now and that isn’t happening.
Lemmy isn’t mainstream. Most people, even the terminally online don’t know it exists
I’m skeptical that there exists any leftist mainstream place that isn’t actually a right-wing place disguised as leftist.
I’m also skeptical that all of those loud but irrational voices are genuine. Especially given Russia’s MO for online trolling where they push both sides of any issue to extremes to sow division. Not to say that I believe everyone on the left is rational and reasonable. But why would the tone be so different between “mainstream” and “non-mainstream” left places if the position you’re talking about is as ubiquitous to the left as you claim it is?
Looking at how many people are angry about this ki da proves your point.
Whew that was quick https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/14541652
It’s not a “thing” compared to male on female abuse which is significantly more pervasive and takes up more attention. Its obviously a thing in that it happens. Most women would rather focus on reducing male violence which typically will benefit male survivors. Just like how structures that help women sexual assault survivors also tend to help the few male survivors and so we don’t per se need to explicitly help the smaller male demographic, since they are included and the larger female demographic still hasn’t been served either.
We just don’t care to hear you sealion about these abuse victims when you do nothing for EITHER demographic and instead use male victims to deny help for women and thus men. It’s not about giving men help, it’s about being a vulnerable narcissist and making women a bad guy.
This shit right here is what I am talking about.
Lol
You are a cancer to liberal causes.
Good, I’m not a fucking liberal. I’m a socialist.
That’s truly a joke.
It is my current understanding, from various experiences - and I want to state that I publicly engage with men and women who’ve had violent experiences in various ways on a regular basis - that men are FAR more likely to be supported when facing domestic violence by the left, the very same woke/feminist left.
The right? They don’t give a flying f*ck. As always. The incels and their variants? They don’t care. They’re in a political crusade against social justice.
So where are the men’s shelters? Why is female on male abuse considered funny? And I don’t care what conservatives think
Who considers female on male abuse funny? I have yet too see any feminist, any worker in a shelter, any of those, find any kind of domestic violence funny.
I’m not talking about Xitter pen keyboard heroes here. I mean real people.
Who’s laughing at violence against men?
Taters, conservatives, and their kind, high representatives of the most toxic masculinity.
You clearly can’t begin to fathom what’s it’s like for people who experienced violence and domestic violence. I’ve never seen a female survivor not listening to a male survivor. I’ve never seen a left wing feminist working with female survivors not taking a male survivor seriously.
Actually, from my experience, which, I think, is significant at least in my country and generation, they’re literally the ONLY ONES who take them seriously (except some of their close ones, friends and family, of course - not all will, but some may).
Look through this thread. Look at the people bitching about the comic. But please keep telling me how much kinder and better women are.
Wtf is that pink blob though
A blob fish.
One of nature’s most aptly named creatures
They only look that way thanks to explosive decompression. Most blobfish are pulled up too quickly and end up expanding like that. At their normal pressures they look like almost any other fish.
More wtf than before
Always remember…
That’s derogatory towards people who have mental health issues, though, most of whom are MUCH more likely to be victims of abuse than perpetrators.
This is kind of just victim-blaming though?
Why is never in quotes?? What is this implying?
There can be a positive “crazy” but it’s quite a gamble
Ah yes, the Vickie Mendoza Diagonal
Oh… wouldn’t you like “to” know?
It’s implying that this is a braindead MRA meme.
…sarcasm: quotes always imply sarcasm…
Really applies to most things. I’m not a dude, trans woman, but I’ve gotten sexually harassed a lot both pre and post transition and the response I got pre and post transition is night and day. Pretransition people treated me like I was crazy for feeling unsafe and like I was supposed to enjoy it.
Honestly, men should be allowed to feel unsafe around women, or really allowed to feel unsafe in general, and be taken seriously for it.I’m a guy.
I’ve been sexually assaulted multiple times in my life by both genders. The last time was at the hands of a boyfriend who made me no longer want to be Bi. I haven’t been with another guy since and only date female now.
Honestly the response has never been in my favor. At the hands women it was ignored or blamed on me and by men I was told that I should have enjoyed it more. I’ve been belittled for not being gay enough to take being assaulted in public. And told I was being a problem for having it done to me in a work setting with apologies made for the perpetrator and then myself sent away.
I never get to feel unsafe and I never have gotten to feel seen for it. Not by other men. Not by the LGBTQ community, not by women, not even by doctors. It’s devastating and yet there apparently is no right time to ever bring it forward. It’s horrible that it feels we have specific socially acceptable ways to be traumatized and most of them are against men. And yet the loudest resistance feels like from the people being hypocrites cause it makes for an easier narrative.
I don’t like people anymore.
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to type all that. I’m sorry.
No need to apologize. Glad you shared. Never apologize for getting something off your chest.
I’m sorry no one treated your abuse seriously.
Thank you.
I’m sorry I kinda had a panic attack after I sent that.
Thank you again.
I’m a guy and I have a cnc/rape kink (want to be ) but if a girl try to do it for real I would kick her ass no matter how pretty she would be. If you start thinking with your brain I don’t understand how a guy could enjoy someone that toxic and disgusting.
One downfall of what I only hesitantly refer to as modern feminism (although really I’m talking about terfs and the terf-adjacent) is that it has painted men as dangerous by default. I’m also a trans woman so I’ve seen both sides of the coin, too… I do feel less safe now, this is true. Many things were easier when I was living as a man. But I was never dangerous or an abuser.
Nonetheless, a former partner used accusations of abuse against me and turned so many people on me. The only ones that stuck by me were former romantic partners, who knew the accusations couldn’t have been true. For everyone else, it was so easy to accept that a man - even a clearly gentle one - would be an abuser.
In reality I’ve been a victim of abuse - physical, emotional, sexual… All long before I transitioned.
Im so sorry for you,hope you are better now ❤️
I guess if she’s suspecting other women, it’s up to the bros to be there for him. Remember to support your bros and get them to seek help! (There’s nothing unmanly about heart to hearts about abuse).
An abusive partner accusing the other of cheating is very often a projection of the fact they themselves had been cheating. Since they know they would cheat, and were/are, they either assume the other person is the same way, or simply don’t want to draw attention to their affair. It’s an awful thing.
It can also be a sign of past trauma. I.E. they were chested on before, and are projecting the behaviors of the past onto you. Also awful, but in a much more sad way.
I was once seeing a girl for a couple weeks that FUCKING ROOFIED MY DRINK so she could look through my phone while I was lying there watching her unable to move. It was absolutely fucked.
Good thing you managed to stay conscious, holy shit!
Didn’t even know that was possibleDepends on the type of drug, not all date rapes do the same thing. I think this one was GHB but I don’t actually know.
GHB
I think that is the point where I would consider pressing attempted murder charges. That shit is insanely dangerous and it’s withdrawal can apparently be worst than that of fucking Heroin. Like: There are places that are otherwise very open to drugs that have zero tolerance policy on that stuff.
Thats horrible! Now it exist some kind of drug testing straw that color themselves if it detect something. But just to think that its a possibility is horrible.
Well this was at my fucking house with this girl I was seeing, I didn’t expect to get roofied lol
That’s horrible, I hope you’re doing better now
I’m married now, and this was over a decade ago. As soon as I was able to function again I kicked her out of my house and never spoke to her again.
From « a couple weeks ago », to « I’m married now » oh boy, that escalated quickly but then I saw the decades word! Good for you you were able to ditch this abuser.
Edit: ha, I misread the whole thing, my bad
Terrifying. I’ve had other reasons to only use a passcode, but now I have another.
It’s possible if you did a lot of weed or if you are a redhead, it might be harder to roofie/sedate you
I’m not either of those things. But I’m a pretty tall muscular man so my body weight probably helped.
I have both, plus a few other weird genes with things like how I process alcohol, and I survived a couple of roofie attempts myself. Anesthesia doesn’t work well on me either. They tend to look surprised when I’m fine after their doses lol.
I think though, that we should let everyone try those drugs so they know what it feels like. Part of why I didn’t realize I had been drugged, imo, was that I didn’t know what those other drugs felt like and I assumed it was the alcohol. Even though I thought it was weird I was responding to alcohol like that. Now, I immediately recognize the feeling versus alcohol. I wish I had just tried a mild dose previously in a safe setting because it would have helped me escape sooner the first time. What do you think about a program like that being available to the public? I think it could especially help college aged people.
Idk, I never had any problems trying any drugs I wanted to lol
You never had issues finding roofies?
Ok you got me there. I never had a roofie dealer and wouldn’t know where to get those.
Most dealers refuse to sell or carry it due to date rape concerns
Al…right. Let’s do a little sanity check and let’s see how up or downvoted is gets.
- It is absolutely true that violence against women is structurally endemic in our societies and they represent a large majority of domestic violence
- It is also absolutely true that domestic violence against men is clearly under-reported, to an unknown but significant extant
- It is absolutely true that abuse is abuse
Those assertions do not contradict each other.
Ignoring female-on-male violence and shaming men who are victims of it is also structurally ingrained in our society.
That’s also true
1 is questionable, in part because of the claim that we don’t know how under reported it is in 2. But also because there have been studies going back to the 70s suggesting that most violent relationships involve mutual violence, and the ones that don’t aren’t a large majority of men abusing women. For example, the woman who founded the first women’s refuge in the UK had written that many of the women entering her shelter were as violent as the men they were leaving, giving a number a number that was pretty close to numbers Strauss, Gelles and Steinmetz came up with from their research in the 70
Those studies get questioned or minimized not because they have particularly bad issues with how they are done, but because the field is essentially subject to ideological capture and research that contradicts the goals of the activism at the time is worked against.
There’s also some playing with terms and definitions that works against men in this kind of thing. To use a trans example, all women in the UK who rape are trans - this isn’t because trans women are particularly likely to rape, but because rape is defined in the UK as requiring the perpetrator to penetrate the victim with the perpetrator’s penis, which means cis women are incapable of “rape”, but if you’re a TERF and need something to support your point… For an example regarding men, Mary Koss (a prominent sexual assault researcher, enough so that you almost can’t talk about the topic in the US without touching something descended from her work) was asked a question about men being raped by women about a decade ago in an interview. She responded with incredulity, asked how would that even happen, and when given an example who had been drugged into compliance was told by Koss that that wasn’t rape, but “unwanted contact” and in other places she’s made a point about the importance of keeping rape a word for female victims because men just don’t feel hurt or shame in the same way.
Or NISVS where you see a couple of interesting things. One is playing with definitions where if a man copulates with a woman against her will it’s “rape” but if a woman copulates with a man against his will it’s “made to penetrate”, with the latter being a subcategory of “Other” so as to obscure any kind of direct comparisons between them or that the two are as similar as they are. You also have this clearly demonstrated phenomenon that they seem to actively avoid discussing where previous year rape numbers are pretty similar (if you consider being “made to penetrate” equivalent to “rape”) but in lifetime numbers men’s reporting drops off drastically. I suspect this is caused by men not categorizing what happened to them in this way, in large part because they get told again and again that it doesn’t count, that they were lucky, or similar until eventually they believe it.
Ha! #2 is wrong because you said extant instead of extent. I’ve got you now, sensible internet stranger! 🤓🤓🤓
Damn. I’ve been exposed!
Under-reported probably does not begin to capture it. I doubt 99.999% of instances of women hitting their man have ever been reported in human history, speaking from experience mostly due to pride.
Its a total double standard, as is almost everything with women. There I said it.
Rather than plain mysogyny, men and anti DV movements which men are part of should engage in their conception of pride, seeking help, admitting you can be a victim too and listening to other males victims. And if course when they want it legal action.
If you wish to solve the issue, that’s the main way to go.
If you want to promote a conservative backlash about feminism and spread basic misogynistic views, you’re on the right track though.
I’ve been working with movements and research efforts to make men more aware about reporting victimhood and seeking mental health help for years. I won’t prove it because it would likely make my identity public, which I’m not comfortable doing here. Guess what ? I’m working with more feminist actors than you can imagine in your little echo chamber.
Also : “immensely under-reported”, if that suits you better. But considering your visible agenda, I doubt it will.
100% on all points
I am a 6’6’‘, 280lbs man and my ex-wife was a 4’7’’ 97lbs woman. She would hit me and psychologically abuse me a lot, and nobody would give a shit because “how can she hurt you? You’re such a big guy!”
She would use weapons, you bastards! She would hit me while I was asleep! She would hit me in the nuts! And even if it didn’t always physically hurt, it definitely hurt in other ways. Fuck off with that mentality.
I have been abused by both my mom and my partners. They took advantage of my insecurities, because of their insecurities. No one ever acknowledged it until recently. I have no trust in ever getting a relationship with someone who treats me equally. According to my therapists, I responded by turning into myself instead of developing a personality disorder. Apparently I’m too sweet.
I don’t know that turning onward is a bad idea. It can be, if we get terrified and refuse to go deeper. What I mean is, grief work and rage work and all the icky stuff is necessary, as are breaks from the heaviness. Be gentle with yourself, friend.
abusers are trash, no matter what their gender. May they all rot.
My wife once hit me in front of my kids because she didn’t like my pointing out a double standard in how she was treating them. The one she was favoring recently started hitting the other one in a similar manner–basically just to silence her when she said something he didn’t like–and when I pointed out the similarity to my wife’s actions and suggested he had learned it from her she got mad and claimed that rather than hitting me she had “hit my hand away” which is a lie and she knows it. It is 100% classic spousal abuse and gaslighting, and yet due to the sheer size difference between us–I’m a foot taller–I feel ridiculous calling it that, and don’t want to find out what else my son learns is OK from his mom if I’m not around, so here I am still married to her, mostly trying to forget the abuse when it’s not actively happening. She’s been abusive, but I’m not really in any physical danger, so staying seems like the rational option in my situation… I imagine that’s relatively common among men.
Hey man, I don’t know your situation and all the details, but it’s not at all ridiculous to call it spousal abuse or gaslighting. That’s fucking dark, and that your son is picking up on it is darker. Your other kid likely isn’t blind to it either, especially since she’s started receiving that sort of treatment and being treated as the scapegoat. That sort of situation leaves deep scars on both spouse (you) and children. You don’t have to be in physical danger (though abuse often escalates) to be in danger. Damage from abuse lasts a lifetime.
Woah stop making men feel safe and seen. Next thing they’ll become feminists, or worse, empathetic and caring humans!
I actually spoke with some who said talking about problems specific to men, is somehow anti feminist, because it puts men into a victim role.
“Feminists” that base their feminism on pure misandry are counterproductive to the movement
“Feminists” that base their feminism on pure misandry are counterproductive to the movement
…but are also quite common and not called out or excluded for it.
Hell, I can point you to the sexual assault researcher who is the origin of that 1 in 4 number you hear thrown around and also coined the term “date rape” asking in confusion how a woman could even hypothetically rape a man and when given an example where the man was drugged into compliance declared it to be “unwanted contact” and not, you know some kind of assault or rape. This was about ten years ago, not like back in the 70s or something.
That’s not what helps men feel empathy, though. That’s not how empathy is developed. If it was, movie actors and kings etc who have empathy extended to them constantly, would be the most empathetic people on the planet. Yet they are the least empathetic.
The thing that gets men to feel empathy, is the man feeling empathy. It’s like a mental weight - you have to choose to lift it. I can’t make you do that by rolemodeling. You have to actually take time and do the work. Actually sit down and think and perspective take without projecting or objectifying. Just radical acceptance. You have to do that work. And only then can you be truly caring, empathetic, or a feminist - by examining your own actions as a man. It’s great to allow men to have a sense of community outside of toxic masculinity, but this isn’t how men develop empathy or Feminism and that’s weird to phrase it like that. Like it’s valid for men to punish women by removing rights, voting for Trump, removing empathy, and not being prosocial. In fact, that’s quite controlling and abusive.
Literally my ex, any the typical reactions, where somehow I’m to blame for her insanity, because men are all bad and women are always right.
Ironically, she was cheating. Its always projection with the psychopaths.
