War crimes are war crimes.
Oh, so when do you take to the court half of western Germany? Up to late 70s justice ministry officials were in 30% ex nazi party members. Not mentioning BND ( ex org Gehlen ) which was nazi organization run by nazi army officer.
Did the Germans return robbed pieces of art? Did the Germans repay restitution to the victims of German nazi camps ( yes, German because first nazi camps were created in Germamy like in Dachau 1933, then in Austria )
Did Germans repay for the victims of Intelligenzaktion ( killing action of Polish elite, educates people like doctors, academics, politicians and members of police and army )
Did Germans repay for intentionally robbing and demolishing any industrial or even cities like Warsaw?
Please let’s talk seriously about war crimes
As usual. Yes, two things can be bad at once. I’m not sure why every time the soviet union, Russia or China is criticised, there’s always a vocal minority going “WHAT ABOUT”. Yes, those are important issues too. Make a post about them. Don’t try to excuse war crimes with other issues. War Crimes are universally inexcusable.
You forget that Germans were allies of Soviet Union in the beginning. Yes, allies. Then the roles got reversed after they attacked Soviet union. It’s hard to be surprised that the Soviet union reaction of treating them badly after the war knowing how they treated civilians in Soviet Union
Still Germans died not of poisonous gas but the harsh realities of gulags. The same gulags were many eastern Europeans thrown into for nothing. Stil they weren’t subjected of the nation wide “final solutions” which they wanted to enforce on Jews and Polish ( yes, they were to be killed in their final solution but on the second place )
They started the war, they dealt with cruel people, they blame Poles about everything including the change of borders as if Poland didn’t lose the eastern border.
That’s the Soviets who decided about the change of eastern lands of German, not Poles.
Germans should know the meaning of the word “selbstschuld”. Actions have consequences and when you start wars with superpowers, the consequences are very big.
I see in recent years increase of German propaganda to portray themselves as prime victims in the ww ii on par with the Jews.
Still it’s the best class propaganda as “Polish Atrocities Against the German Minority in Poland” which have been proved by even German journalists to vastly fake
https://annas-archive.org/md5/f1080fdfe86c9cd59178192c0f5cc781
All war crimes are bad. The germans were horrible genociders who commited more war crimes than we’ll ever know of. But it does not excuse those committed by other nations.
Stop with the murding half a million people apologia.
So show me the facts confirming murdering half a million people. Facts not lies. German POWs died not because of mass genocide action but because or harsh realities of Soviet gulags ( harsh living conditions, diseases and little food ).
If that’s what constitutes for you war crimes, even soviet prisoners would have to be called victims of war crimes.
It’s absurd of your terminology invention
You forget that Germans were allies of Soviet Union in the beginning.
What? No. Is this more Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact nonsene? If the USSR and Germany were allies because of a non-aggression pact, then so were many other Allied states allies of Germany. The USSR signed that pact to buy itself time to build up their war capacity, knowing that Germany was likely to eventually try to invade. The Nazis came to power as virulent anticommunists, as fascists always are, because fascist movements are always funded by the capitalist class.
Lol. No, it’s only the public part. Germans disclosed the secret part which clearly stated what I said.
Soviets trained Nazi tank and artillery crew and provided them place for military training in times when they were forbidden to have heavy arms.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kama_tank_school
It’s a basic history material from the secondary school maybe
To characterize a communist state and an anticommunist state as “allies” is absurd. Two states can’t be more at odds with each other than that.
Soviets trained Nazi tank and artillery crew and provided them place for military training
That all ended before or just as the Nazis seized control the German state. So no, they didn’t train Nazis, because the military wasn’t a Nazi one yet.
My grandfather jumped down from the train that was supposed to bring him to a gulag (he was a soldier (vehicle driver) in ww2, just like all other German males at that time) with six others and walked 800 000 km home over many nights (at daytime they’d be seen and captured to be brought to a gulag, which basically equalled death), before dawn broke they always went to a farm and asked if they could hide there for the day (the farmers were very friendly despite having been enemies not long ago (enemies in wars usually exist on a political level, but not on a personal one), most didn’t reject them and let them sleep, usually also gave them something to eat and if they were lucky something to take with them for the next night).
He was the only one who arrived back home, all others either were captured or died.
There he went to the American zone since he had heard his chances for survival were best there. They threw him into a pit (went a few meters down, he broke his arm from falling down), gave him some stray, water and bread (apart from the bread basically like many animals are kept). After eight years (including frequent physical and psychological torture (= for example telling him to lay off all clothes and stand at a wall, pointing a gun at him telling him it’s time to die like once per month)) he was so ill that they expected him to die within a few days so they set him free so he could visit his wife and children one last time.
He recovered and lived to become 90 years old.
Just because one side was very bad it doesn’t mean the other sides were angels. I’m not defending the Nazis in any way, but I’m sure there were many cases such as his. And he didn’t do anything special as far as I know, didn’t have a high rank or anything, he just was a normal vehicle driver in his country’s army.
Edit: Another example: https://lemmy.world/comment/12283788
If you read Enemy At The Gates: The Battle for Stalingrad by W. Craig, the closing chapters discuss what happened to the Germans at the tail end of their Eastward Campaigns, and also discussed the Russian side of the battle. Also just a really good book for showing the horrors of war. The number of lives lost was absolutely crazy, and plenty of POWs were taken that were executed, starved, or died of many other causes after their capture due to brutal mistreatment. More senior officers were kept alive and turned into propaganda pieces by the Russians.
Literal Nazi apologia? Upvoted on Lemmy.world? Color me shocked!
Yeah,I really don’t care how many Nazis got worked to death after that they did, it’s a shame they let so many of them right back into the west german government afterwards.
Wonder what the world would look like today if Germany had been thoroughly purged of Nazism, rather than a slap on the wrists.
It would have been really funny if they had given like Austria or half of Germany to be “Israel” on top of actually removing the Nazis
Funny and probably would have dramatically changed the world stage as it exists today.
Wild that they let some nazis survive. Hope they at least put them to good use for labor as reparations.
In the capitalist countries they were given cushy leadership positions instead lmao as you’d expect
Post war Nazi career paths
Get job (allies) 😀
Get job (Soviets) 💀
And if you were a Nazi who was “employed” by the Soviet Union you were most likely not a scientist
How the hell do you figure that? They were the only ones who would be of any worth.
You are literally commenting on a post about 500 000 German prisoners of war in forced labour camps… r u stoopid?
On another note I just had a thought about the German scientists who fled the Reich pre WW2 due to prosecution and the German scientists who were employed post WW2. Did they ever meet and work on projects together lmao.
“Hey Albert, I didn’t know you were in Princeton, too!”
“Remember that time you hunted me and my family, wanting to execute us through forced labor? Haha, good times. Those sure were the good ol days.”
“And we just laughed and laughed…”
So we doing nazi apologia now? Who cares how many nazis died lmao
Clearly not enough, seeing how
the fourth reichWest Germany actually had more nazis in its government after WW2 than during it.Wehrmacht was not a Nazi organisation. Members were free to join the party but they were not under any obligation. The SS was an explicitly Nazi army but completely separate from the Wehrmacht.
German people were compelled to ‘support the troops’ in the same way that Americans are compelled to support their many illegal invasions of sovereign territory. The British continue to build and operate colonial era warships. The main difference is they were on the winning side, lmao, etc.
Not just Germans. Lots of Frenchmen and Alsatians too! Some had to wait until 1956.
Nice, Lemmy is finally not a leftist echo chamber, we can have Nazi apologia!
Imagine seeing the world so black and white that detailing a Soviet War crime in world war two is the same as apologising for the Nazis.
The Nazis were absolutely horrible genociders who commited countless atrocities. Now, does that mean we should just ignore other countries atrocities. No it doesn’t.
No one fucking cares how many nazis died other than nazi apologists like you lmao. Get an account on stormfront instead.
The west didn’t purge the Nazis hard enough.
dare I say, a certain someone should not have stopped at Berlin
Theoretically it’s possible that somebody randomly chose a war crime from 7 decades ago to soapbox about.
In reality its almost always a Nazi apologist. It also happens far more often than somebody making posts for things like the Rwanda genocide
I was reading through wikipedia on world war two, and found out that over half a million german prisoners of war died in soviet gulags after the end of the war.
I’m pretty well read on world war two and I’d never heard that before, so I decided to post it on “today I learned”.
There’s a real problem with Neo-nazis, less on lemmy, but it’s increasing worldwide. But you’re accusing the wrong person.
Were you really under any impression that the comment section on a post about war crimes against Nazis was going to go any other way? You knew exactly what you were getting into.
Rules for thee, but not for me
Yes I was to be honest. I didn’t imagine I would be accused of being a nazi because I detailed war crimes against them.
Not to mention I’ve made similar posts in the past about nazi war crimes against the allies, I believe one was specifically about the soviets, and people were quite respectful and intelligent in the comments.
For context, the Nazis took 6 million POWs and murdered 3 million. Far higher death rate, far higher in totality. The Nazis destroyed large parts of the USSR and murdered millions of Soviet civilians and POWs.
I definitely get what you were going for, and you’re not wrong. Unfortunately the internet isn’t the most objective place, and the thought process for most is just going to stop at, “Bad thing happened to Nazis… Meh.”
I’ve heard a lot about the Rwandan genocide, but this is my first time hearing of OP’s thing. It’s more interesting to read about something novel, which is probably why you see more of this being shared.
It actually rules that they worked all those Nazis to death digging a ditch between the Don and the Volga.
The source of your quoted text is from Erich Maschke, a literal dyed-in-the-wool Nazi.
He joined the SA in 1933, the Nazi party in 1937, and was in charge of training the Wehrmacht general staff in Poland during WW2. He was publically in favor of German colonization and domination of the “Eastern territory”.So allow me to disregard his opinion on the treatment of German POWs by those he wished to have eradicated.
– regards, a German, whose grandfather lost a leg in a Russian POW camp and returned as an alcoholic who beat his wife and kids daily.
When you fight literal Nazis and still can’t come away looking like the good guys.
Won’t shed a tear
My mother worked in Germany in the late 60s (We are Norwegian) and her boss’ (and life long friend of the family) husband was 16 when he was literally drafted from HJ to the SS in early 45. He was a good jugend and it was an “honor” and such BS. But having spent all his childhood in nazi Germany he knew nothing else. He was captured by the Russians in Czechoslovakia and spent 5 years as a POW and the only reason he made it as far as becoming a POW was his age and because the SS NCOs made sure he didn’t get the SS serial number tattoo since he was so young.
God knows how he manages to survive, but I never knew him to not eat every morsel of food on his plate, and he never talked about his experience.
I shed no tears for Nazis, but I do shed tears for the duped and the “innocents” of any conflict.
Love posting nazi propaganda
interesting, I wonder where that source comes from 🤔
Erich Maschke Zur Geschichte der deutschen Kriegsgefangenen des Zweiten Weltkrieges Bielefeld, E. und W. Gieseking, 1962-1974 Vol 15 p. 207
interesting, I wonder who Erich Maschke is 🤔
Interesting! we’re just taking Nazi lies at face value now, it would seem.
I’m not sure which German you expect to have conducted this research other than a former Nazi, seeing as basically everyone left was a former Nazi. And I don’t see how you can just dismiss the government report as Nazi lies when even the Soviets report a figure of 350 thousand dead.
I can dismiss it as Nazi lies because it is false information published by a lifelong Nazi party devotee and propagandist. that’s literally what those words mean. Of course the West German government commissioned a lifelong devoted Nazi propagandist for this report, nearly 80% of the post-war West German government were former Nazi officials. you should take everything they say, especially figures about the soviet union, with a gigantic mountain of salt, because it is Nazi propaganda.
So your definite stance is that it’s outright false information and Nazi propaganda that the number is 30% higher than the one the Soviets themselves put out?
Source on the 350 thousand figure?
Quite literally the first paragraph of the article:
According to Soviet records 381,067 German Wehrmacht POWs died in NKVD camps (356,700 German nationals and 24,367 from other nations).
Or in more detail lower down in the section titled Soviet statistics:
According to Russian historian Grigori F. Krivosheev, Soviet NKVD figures list 2,733,739 German “Wehrmacht” POWs (Военнопленные из войск вермахта) taken with 381,067 having died in captivity.
How did that shitstain live through 1982?
It says in the article, “West Germany.”
Thank you for your thoughtful and comprehensive answer.
In case you’re being sarcastic, West Germany was not de-Nazified to any real extent, the Western Powers were extremely lenient on punishing Nazis in general.
It’s on a LW community, what did you expect lmao
To be fair, OP is also a blahaj user. Lemmy.world’s issues aren’t exclusive to Lemmy.world users.
yeah, well… on the one hand, you can look at it as a response to what happened during the war, with RU losing 20+ million.
On the other hand, you could consider: stalin killed and gulag’d so many of his own people, what does anyone expect him to do to POWs?
ain’t right. but you can’t say it was exactly unexpected.
Well yeah. Stalin was at least as evil as Hitler, he just executed his enemies (real or perceived) - Jews included - via gulags. TBH the only practical difference between them was their core ideologies and which ones were sides with the Allies when the war ended.
