If we had a normal election I’d be voting 3rd party because of the Dem’s unwavering support for Israel with a genocide happening there. Unfortunately our choice is like choosing between a shit sandwich or pureed cauliflower for dinner. Pureed cauliflower sounds disgusting but when so many people are going to choose the shit sandwich I better vote for Cauliflower so I don’t eat shit
This is a good way of putting it.
If you wring the water out and use a good butter, pureed cauliflower makes a really good mashed potato alternative.
My son is a pretty good cook and has done this. Unlike a shit sandwich people actually finds ways to make food that’s good for you taste decent. The only people a shit sandwich is good for are those selling the shit. A fitting analogy for our election.
What a great idea. Since this country began, a 3rd party candidate has never won the Presidency. And that’s because everyone but you understands that in a First Past the Post system, voting for a third party candidate will ONLY ever benefit the party you least want to see elected, whether you are in a “normal” election or not.
Unwavering support < are you a liar or just ignorant? The Dems are the only party with members that DON’T support Israel. The Republicans are the party with unwavering support, and they fucking LOVE it when a liberal throws away their vote.
I wonder how many Republicans read comments like yours and just start belly laughing?
More like a shit sandwich and a shit sundae.
Not imo. One side wants to kill me with no regulations on air, water, and food so a shit sandwich would be acceptable to them if it lines their benefactors pockets. The other side may want to get me to eat cauliflower because not only is it good for me but it lines their benefactors pockets
They both have shit in them, there’s just more of it or maybe a different consistency to the shit in the other.
We may be doing a lot of choosing the lesser evil but gd there is such a huge margin between them right now. I am not willing to give a rapist traitor a 2nd chance to damage the country more than he already did. Hell I expect him to try and pull off something right on election day and if not that a Jan 6th 2.0 right after it. Putting the country into a civil war would not bother the diaper wearing orange shit sandwich in the slightest.
I will not at all be shocked if republocans under trumps command try to push election certification to the house whole complaining of fraud that didn’t happen.
I can already feel libs re-calibrating their ‘electability’ meters to accommodate Harris’s reactionary immigration policies and ‘law and order’ posturing.
This is a huge step to the right but libs couldn’t give any fewer fucks about it.
“Oh, these policies are a step back. Welp, let’s let Mr. Dictator Day One do some more insurrection from the Oval Office, that’ll fix the country.”
Who said they wanted cheeto man in the white house? Certainly wasn’t me.
“Okay kids, today we’re going to take a vote! Raise your left hand if you want everyone to be kicked in the genitals. Raise your right hand if you’d like everyone to be irreversibly sterilized! You can also choose to abstain from voting by not raising either hand.”
Two out of the five kids present raise their right hand. One out of the five kids present raises their left hand. Two of the kids abstain.
As the children are being taken to the sterilization room the kid who raised their left hand turns to the two kids who abstained and asks “Why didn’t you vote!? Now we’re all going to be sterilized!”
One of the two replies, “Well neither of us wanted to be kicked in the genitals!”
Who said I wasn’t voting?
If you don’t vote Dem you’re willing to let him win and don’t see any difference between how the 2 candidates who can actually win differ enough to choose one over the other when one is a fascist
I’m not saying I won’t vote dem, I’m simply expressing dissent against some of their policies.
People here act as if observations about a candidate are themselves votes, and if you make enough negative observations about the democrats it will directly cause their loss, but if you balance them with negative statements about the republicans, they will somehow cancel each other out. Worse, people here seem to give more weight to statements or observations about a candidate than the actual candidate themselves, as if nobody saying anything about the democrats doing something bad will prevent it from manifesting into reality.
We’Re BeInG StRaTeGiC!
I totally appreciate your sentiment and generally agree, but with the caveat that the problem you’re facing is not just a problem with this current election, but an inherent issue with your electoral system.
She wrote in a second post, “Democrats sue to kick us off ballots, hire operatives to infiltrate and sabotage us, lock us out of debates, fight ranked-choice voting, then act concerned that Greens have only won 1400 elections. So which party is authentic, and which is predatory?”
Not wrong. But I still think you’re dishonest for continuing to court peoples’ votes when you aren’t on the ballot in enough states to win.
In her 2017 book, What Happened, Clinton wrote: “So in each state, there were more than enough Stein voters to swing the result.”
No. You’re just unlikable.
But they are on enough ballots to get 507 electoral votes (out of 538). They don’t have a chance of actually winning those, but that’s a stupid argument.
Besides, even if they didn’t, and by some miracle actually got a few delegates to hold the balance of power, they could instruct their delegates for the party that will enact some of their policies, you don’t need to win the whole thing to be effective.
And how many millions of “centrist” suburbanites that voted for Obama but not Clinton get balmed for her loss? Why are those to the left of the Democratic Party line always blamed while those to the right are coveted? Republicans are always turning extreme rightwing positions into mainstream issues, so why cant the left do the same? Either Leftists are an insignificant voting block, or their support for leftist candidates is as sabotaging the Democrats. You have to pick one.
Agreed. The Green Party sits on their ass until presidential election. They haven’t moved the needle. Best case scenario, they’ve convinced a few non-voters to participate. Worst case, they’re dishonest opportunists.
This angle also needs to be considered). She’s not running in good faith. She’s essentially functioning as a 5th column to pull away voters who would otherwise vote for Harris.
I’m not saying Harris shouldn’t be pushed on environmental issues. I am saying that trying to do that by voting for Stein is actively harmful to the goal of not letting the fascists win this election.
Fascists and Putin are sure to support her however they can. Cue the trolls.
More importantly, if you are voting for her because of the environment, voting for stein is actually harmful to that goal because it helps trump win, which means instead of making baby steps in the right direction, we’ll run full steam in the wrong direction.
The Dems aren’t making baby steps in the right direction, though, look up the progression of natural gas exports under Joe Biden. They’re actively making big steps in the wrong direction.
One metric is the only thing you go by? Do you really think that climate change is driven solely by how much natural gas we export?
Ok, can you please give me other metrics? How many nuclear plants have been built? How much has been invested into new rail infrastructure, whether for freight or for passengers? Have there been any new tariffs on the import of electric vehicles? Any regulation against single family housing, against car dependency, or against meat consumption?
Please, what metrics have improved, other than renewables being installed (at a much lower rate than in many countries)?
There… are no metrics in the link you sent me… There’s “plans to reduce emissions by X year”, but no mention to progress so far. There’s “investment into carbon capture and sequestration” (famously known to not work) but no metric. There’s “a pause in the approvals for new natural gas projects” (but the ones approved keep opening up)…
Have you even read what you sent me?
How many nuclear plants have been built?
You do realize that Stein is against nuclear power and the Green Party constantly fear mongers against it?
Wrong. http://gpus.nationbuilder.com/officeholders
You’re the one sitting on your ass.
The DSA has far more electeds in every level of the government, and they’ve managed to do it without spoiling presidential elections. It’s easy, all you have to do is run through the Democratic Party primaries, they figured it out decades ago, curious that Jill Stein and the Greens somehow didn’t.
managed to do it
without spoiling presidential electionswith the support of Democrats and their donors. AOC backs them, they are a complete fake left organization to draw you in and accomplish nothing.Democrats have you fooled.
Lmfao. You mean AOC who the DNC hates and has struggled for years to freeze out of the party? Seems like some small third party has you fooled.
DNC loves having AOC fool you and influence young people with her social media to vote Dem. You’re a complete idiot.
Says the person who thinks third parties are viable, would you like me to name the dozen socialist parties that have failed?
If you actually supported any of the policies that you claim, you would be working to make them viable instead of working against your own interests.
Most of the greens here on Lemmy convinced me to never consider a green canidate.
The trouble with supporting a third party – and I say this as someone inclined to support a third party – is that anybody who actually does it is either (a) an idiot who doesn’t understand the game theory of first-past-the-post voting, or (b) an incredibly fringe nutjob. The result is that all third parties absolutely destroy all their credibility and ruin any chance of getting more mainstream.
If you’re a third-party-inclined person who isn’t an idiot or a nutjob, your only real option is to vote for Democrats in general, and ones who support ranked choice voting in particular (because you sure as Hell aren’t gonna get it from the Republicans), and then switch to your third party of choice only after ranked-choice voting is passed.
My state is nowhere near anywhere close to being a swing-state. My vote for president carries very little weight. For this reason, I vote for whichever party actually aligns with my ideology.
An acquaintance once tried to scapegoat me and my vote for Jill Stein as the reason that Donald Trump won in 2016.
That’s not how the electoral college works.
If you live in a deep Red or deep Blue state, you definitely aren’t responsible for Donald Trump’s win in 2016, BUT we need to defeat Trump, and we need every vote we can get, everywhere we can get it, so Trump finds it hard to steal the election, because we know he will.
At least, if you live in California or Oklahoma, your nonsense vote won’t give us Trump, but unless you are CERTAIN you can throw your vote away, I’d ask you to look at your wife, sister, and/or mother and ask yourself if you want them subjected to Project 2025. If you don’t, and I hope you don’t, save the protest votes for your city/county/state governments where they might actually accomplish something.
Virtue signalling into the void. Don’t get me wrong, I did it too in 2012 because I was disillusioned with Obama and I live in a deeply blue state. But that’s all it is. You’re better off writing an encouraging letter to your candidate of choice, or talking to your neighbors about the city council, or any number of other things that might actually make a material impact on someone’s life.
Your point is that doing something is more effective than doing nothing? You sure got me there. I have to say that I agree.
It doesn’t do anything, but neither does voting for a Democratic president in a non-swing state. They could just leave the box blank too. They’re not choosing “should I check the president box or talk to my neighbors”, they’re at the voting booth, presumably because other races matter, and filling in the box because it’s there. None of the options in that race matter and the comment you’re replying to is explicitly about how it doesn’t matter, so why are you even complaining?
If you’re a third-party-inclined person who isn’t an idiot or a nutjob, your only real option is to vote for Democrats in general, and ones who support ranked choice voting in particular (because you sure as Hell aren’t gonna get it from the Republicans), and then switch to your third party of choice only after ranked-choice voting is passed.
The Democrats are going to give you ranked-choice voting so they can potentially lose your vote… Thank god you are not an idiot.
San Francisco has ranked choice voting because there’s no way in hell a Republican could win here. That’s what we should be aiming for.
The Democrats give us nothing. We voters take.
Maine and Alaska use RCV now, and while Alaskan politicians are trying to ratfuck the votes (because Sarah Palin lost to a Democrat under FPTP), both states have seen people not get a Republican thanks to their vote for Third Parties on the Left, as long as they at least grudgingly mark the Dem ahead of the Rep on the RCV ballot.
Colorado’s going to vote on this this November, too, which means I can actually vote Third Party without being ratfucked by that choice. Then I’ll happily say 'Vote Green to hold Blue accountable, but make sure Blue shows up before Red so Red doesn’t ratfuck all of us on the Left."
If you wonder about the constant use of ratfucking in my post, have a read and see what it means…
I would absolutely vote Green but to do so would be unthinkable until we have ranked choice voting. We should band all the leftists together for one big push to get that enacted everywhere. Once we do that we can go back to our divisive bickering.
Libertarians == conservatives who smoke weed
The Green Party sits on their ass until presidential election.
They hold over 140 offices across 20 states. Seems a little disingenuous to claim that.
That’s a drop of LSD in a lake.
Across an entire nation, they have 140 whole offices. They have more people on their party organizing committee than people in office. None of those 140 are even at the level of state legislature, despite there being many races with unopposed Democrats that only have a few thousand total votes cast in them.
The last election for my state rep had 4,000 votes cast. He had a single opponent from a party I’ve never heard of who got 1,000 of them. There were more candidates running under that low name ID and sparesly funded local party than there were Green candidates. If they were a real party trying to advance progressive causes, this would be an ideal place to build local representation. Single-party state, tons of DINOs to challenge from the left, and low turnout that could make successful challenges possible.
That’s uhhh. A very interesting data point. Really kind of hangs the light on the problem…
Wow, 143 elected offices is massive. Such prestigious positions as “Neighborhood Council”, “Conservation District”, “Town Commission”, “Planning Group”, “Park Commission” (Pawnee reference??), “Select Board”, “Zoning Board of Appeals Alternate”, “Water District Board of Commissioners”, “School Committee”, “Advisory Neighborhood Commission”, and gasp what’s this? The mayor of a California town of 22,000 people? Why if all of them banded together and moved to Connecticut (and somehow became popular with the residents there), they could collectively make almost 77% of an entire Connecticut General Assembly and literally no other offices including mayorships, governorships, all of the other state legislatures and the federal legislature, and all the god-knows-how-many positions in local governments.
So now the goalposts are moved from they don’t do anything but presidential candidates to they don’t do enough? Maybe if they had better funding they could run more candidates. Saying they do nothing but presidential candidates is still disingenuous no matter how much you want to belittle their othet work.
I don’t think it bodes well she sat with Putin at a conference, whether there was “language barriers” or not.
>Third-party fringe candidate who gets less than 1% of the vote having dinner with Putin, Trump’s national security advisor who was later arrested for lying to the FBI about his ties to Russia, and several major Russian political figures before an election in which Russian interference provably helped Trump win.
>The US president acting in an official capacity and meeting with the leader of a major world power.
“They’re the same picture.”
Boy,
Russian botsJill Stein stans are really tripping over each other to see who’s the biggest, dumbest idiot, aren’t they?-
Third-party fringe candidate who gets less than 1% of the vote
-
President of the United States, who got over 51% of the vote
God damn, who is going to have more influence over national policy I wonder?
Jill Stein stans are really tripping over each other
The SCOTUS recently decided a president can’t be held liable for acts committed in official capacity as a means of shielding the Cheeto-in-Chief from any and all criminal liabilities. It appears some folks on Lemmy are piling on board with this reasoning, so long as they can use it to shield Genocide Joe. A democrat could shoot a man on fifth avenue in broad daylight, and you’d see people on here defend it.
Funny that you took that 5th avenue example right from your dear leader talking about his followers, you.
you took that 5th avenue example right from your dear leader
Why do you people assume history started in 2016? That saying is over a century old.
I would need a source on that, my search shows blank.
It doesn’t matter though, since it’s still ironic that you say it now as an argument when your dear leader has said it about you, and your comments just prove that he was right and that you don’t care about facts, but are deep into the cult and would do everything for him.
Classic projection, but quite the dumb approach.
It doesn’t matter though, since it’s still ironic
Going with the “I’m rubber and you’re glue” defense.
Really proving Technician’s point with that hot-take.
Reactionaries gonna reactionary.
Got caught spewing incomparable pictures and childish responses?
Are Jill Stein and Tankies the same? Just asking questions…
Got caught spewing
Fascist speak strikes again. Lemmy’s really taken a downturn since the last Reddit exodus.
Idiots gonna sound REALLY idiotic.
Wow. You really don’t see the irony in that sentence, do you?
irony
Woof. Really need to crack a dictionary, brother.
-
Willie Wimmer is spouting some pro invasionist nationalistic bs on all the fringe media since he left Bundestag.
So we have a fine assortment of people here.
Yeah, interesting that the supposedly left-leaning Stein sits next to an openly right-wing nationalist conspiracy nutjob whose last book title was:
Der Putsch des Establishments gegen Donald Trump
The establishment coup against Donald Trump
The fact that the only responses to this picture have always been whataboutisms is very telling. When ranked-choice voting comes, and I think it will, my first choice vote is gonna go to a leftist party with real principles.
Oh come on, she had another American there to make sure nothing fishy was going on. The always beyond reproach Michael Flynn.
Flynn pisses me off so much, it amazes me you can spend your entire career serving your country in mostly a leadership role and still end up a traitor.
Wasn’t there a cushy job at a military contractor he could have filled? Or was he so bad that nobody would offer him one?
Putin obviously could give two shits about the planet. He just knew that she’d pull more votes from Clinton than Trump.
I honestly can’t recall if it was some sort of geopolitical analysis in the comments or actual news anymore, but years ago I read that climate change and the collapse of the North Atlantic Current would eventually open up vast areas of Siberia to mining/drilling, improve farming conditions in Russia, harm farming, solar, and wind in Western Europe, while dropping the temps in Western Europe. It would also raise temps in the eastern/southern U.S. and make hurricanes more dangerous and economically damaging along the entire Atlantic and Gulf coasts.
What I read concluded that climate change would be a major boon to Russia and any sensible leader there would want to facilitate it.True. Unfortunately, there will be no way to hit the brakes on climate change once it has progressed to the point of a green Siberia.
So what if they we were at the same dinner? I’ve had dinner with my enemies too. It seems like a lot of you are imagining much greater nefarious activity than you have any real evidence for, or I am missing something?
Lol @ ‘predatory’. mfs really think they own all the votes, huh
This is 100% about them feeling entitled to the Muslim vote and Jill being tied with Harris in polling. The fraud AOC is lashing out because someone is legitimately a threat to them staying in power.
This is the bed Harris decided to make for herself, and if she loses it will be her fault.
She’s also tied with Hugh Janus in polls. It was a real official poll. My source is Trust Me. I am not a troll.
Adding /s
LOL yes I think that went well over the heads of some.
Jill being tied with Harris in polling
LMAO
What the fuck is “cair”?
It would be easier to admit you don’t have enough info on the subject to be commenting
The only person here pretending to know anything is you. This was your response to a question. I’ll take that response to mean “a very unreliable bullshit source”
I’m not the one asking questions on info that’s widely available
That website is cancer on mobile, but I assume it’s a polster.
Apparently polling is going crazy atm, and poll aggregators are having to restrict the polls they are looking at to only the polsters they have heard of before because so many random ones are showing up.
Cancer because it doesn’t contribute to your echo chamber
Do you not know what “on mobile” means?
The Council on American–Islamic Relations. They’ve been in the news for years now, due to all the Islamophobia stoked by the right. If you don’t know who they are, that’s kind of on you.
Way to earn yourself a tag
I have no idea what you’re referencing or care anything about your opinion of me. In a post that is otherwise filled with comments where they look like nutcases, you’ve somehow managed to generate one thread where the Stein boosters look like the more informed and politically mature side.
Yep earned it well
The more you read, the funnier it gets 🤣 what a mook
See also:
legitimately a threat
LMAO
The same way Nader was a threat to Gore.
And that seemed to work out well for everyone.
I’d like to see your source on that polling data, champ. Also, it’s so funny you fucks turned against AOC.
AOC has always been garbage. As requested
Yeah, right? AOC is a bad ass until her party is suddenly unfavorable because some of them but not her aren’t supporting Gaza hard enough. But unsurprisingly, none of these people ever complain about Uyghur genocide—the other Muslims.
It’s easy for Jill to be hard on this topic because she knows the presidency is out of her reach. But AOC is still in play, and sadly—in the actual world we live in—she has to play the game to win.
It’s ironic to me that you people can acknowledge that Jill Stein is just virtue signaling from the side lines because it costs her nothing. She’s not actually spending political capital on something that has any chance of happening. She’s just paying it lip service.
You understand this. That’s good.
But then in the same breath, you applaud AOC for saber rattling to pack the supreme court and other ideas that are impossible without a super majority. Which only served to make Biden look weak and disenfranchise progressive voters.
And look how that turned out. Biden left. Now there is actually a shot at beating Trump.
I consider that a success.
But unsurprisingly, none of these people ever complain about Uyghur genocide—the other Muslims.
You know who else doesn’t complain about it? Other Muslims, because they know it’s bullshit.
https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330
#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
Reason: Genocide denial
Best of luck with your censorship efforts.
Me, talking about real genocide.
You, denying genocide.
You, suggesting I’m censoring the right to deny genocide.
Me, still talking about real genocide.
That’s not what that means. That’s not what any of that means. And you know it. Why such bad faith arguments? If your argument were rational and logical then the genocide in Gaza isn’t happening either. Because there’s large groups of people that don’t really care about it. Probably even large groups of Muslims who have other larger going concerns than it.
It was the United States that blocked that UN visit: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-usa-rights/u-s-germany-slam-china-at-u-n-security-council-over-xinjiang-diplomats-idUSKCN1TX2YZ/
Last month the United States, Britain and other western countries objected to a visit by the United Nations counterterrorism chief to Xinjiang, concerned the visit would validate China’s argument that it was tackling terrorism.
Delegates from Muslim countries did visit. From the US’ own propaganda outlet: Arab League Visits China’s Xinjiang Region, Rejects Uyghur Genocide
If your argument were rational and logical then the genocide in Gaza isn’t happening either.
Speaking of rationality & logic, that sentence is sheer nonsense.
Because Uyghur is 100% sinophobia made up by US propaganda
What about the Rohingya in Myanmar, or Sudan? Are those propaganda too? Or do they not qualify because it doesn’t fit your narrative?
Are we just picking random genocides out of our ass now? I was responding to the fake Uyghur claims
“Fake Uyghyr claims”? Removed for genocide denial.
According to article 2 of the genocide convention, actual killing is not necessary for a genocide.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/genocide-conv-1948/article-2
"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
✅ (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
✅ © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
✅ (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
✅ (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037
"The declarations follow reports that, as well as interning Uyghurs in camps, China has been forcibly mass sterilising Uyghur women to suppress the population, separating children from their families, and attempting to break the cultural traditions of the group.
The US Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, has said China is committing “genocide and crimes against humanity”.
The UK parliament declared in April 2021 that China was committing a genocide in Xinjiang.
A UN human rights committee in 2018 said it had credible reports that China was holding up to a million people in “counter-extremism centres” in Xinjiang.
The Australian Strategic Policy Institute found evidence in 2020 of more than 380 of these “re-education camps” in Xinjiang, an increase of 40% on previous estimates.
Analysis of data contained in the latest police documents, called the Xinjiang Police Files, showed that almost 23,000 residents - or more than 12% of the adult population of one county - were in a camp or prison in the years 2017 and 2018. If applied to Xinjiang as a whole, the figures would mean the detention of more than 1.2 million Uyghur and other Turkic minority adults."
You are using the people claiming there is a genocide as the source for the claim.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
Background
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a “Strike Hard” campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
Counterpoints
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States in 2019 which:
- Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat’s delegation upon invitation from the People’s Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People’s Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People’s Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (A/HRC/41/G/17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, “The review did not substantiate the allegations.” (See: World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur’s amounts to a crime against humanity, it’s still not genocide. Even the U.S. State Department’s legal experts admit as much:
The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China | Colum Lynch, Foreign Policy. (2021)
A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror
The United States, in the wake of “9/11”, saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq’s alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University’s Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the “Military-Aged Male” which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: ‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes)
In summary:
- The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
- China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to actually charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the Hague Invasion Act.
Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is “led by God” on a “mission” against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China’s treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes “genocide” and “crimes against humanity.” Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
Why is this narrative being promoted?
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China’s reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China’s economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
So you can’t say you’re for the Palestinians when you’re actively willfully ignoring all other genocides.
I’m not ignoring them, Im not the one trying to create a strawman.
I mean, I could make the exact same garbage argument about you denying the Canadian genocide of the Flemish, which I just made up. Myanmar & Sudan aren’t even germane to the issue, so what’s the point of this diversion?
So you acknowledge that you’re disregarding them as genocides?
No. The only person who brought them up was you, and for some reason you’re still doing it.
Is this some attempt at, “Have you stopped beating your wife?”
Obviously they meant “tied for the Muslim vote”
https://www.cair.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/CAIRMuslimVoterSurvey.pdf
Obviously they meant “tied for the Muslim vote”
It wasn’t obvious, it was a line constructed in fantasy and intended confusion. IAnd the way they argue and respond gives me hardcore troll vibes. These people are here to sow distrust, confusion and despair. In line with a country known for doing this kind of thing, russia.
Tankies = Green Party
It really is as simple as that.
Tankies = Green Party
It really is as simple as that
You people are delusional.
No, ‘we’ are not. If you take a step back and think about it, it makes perfect sense.
Lots of noise and confusion, distrust, ‘both siding’, etc. And all of that happens magically around…presidential election time.I will maintain my position, tankies/greenparty are propped up to sow distrust and it is a well known mechanism from russia. Do I think all these poor lost souls are on a payroll? Of course not, if only they were. You can fix income, mentalissues are much tougher to solve. You can indoctrinate swarms of people to do your bidding if you take the time and effort. Again, exactly what russia decades ago started doing to the west. They are ‘activated’ (throw the right amount of messaging on several social media channels to do so) always, and I mean always, around presidential election time.
A good question to ask would be why it is that Stein person is only in the picture around presidential election times. I never hear about the groundwork of a true party to gain ground on the more ‘boring’ levels that gain no notoriety or attention, like local boards, mayors, etc. Always they spring to life around presidential election times where they stand absolutely no chance. Why is that?
And for greenparty/tankies to start calling other people delusional is just sad. Lost souls is what they are and I fear we will have to say goodbye to them as I see no real way to mend their minds, they are that lost.
A good question to ask would be why it is that Stein person is only in the picture around presidential election times. I never hear about the groundwork of a true party to gain ground on the more ‘boring’ levels that gain no notoriety or attention, like local boards, mayors, etc. Always they spring to life around presidential election times where they stand absolutely no chance. Why is that?
Or maybe it’s because you don’t pay attention (and the media wilgully ignores more radical opinions). I know crazy.
So tell me, which of Stein’s or the Green Party’s policies makes them “tankies” exactly?
Not the policies, I talked about the people advocating for that party
That doesn’t fit the narrative in this echo chamber even a little bit. <strawman> <gaslight> <ad hominem> <logical fallacy of your choice> <accusation of bad faith>
You picked a very fitting username
Not obvious
This is 100% about them feeling entitled to the Muslim vote and Jill being tied with Harris in polling.
I’m not saying this is the best structured sentence ever, but you need to work on your reading comprehension (though I have a feeling you are being intentionally obtuse).
You’re simping for Stein and thus Trump all over the thread
Yeah that’s just plain fucking false equivalence. But I suppose libs aren’t one logical fallacy short of enlightenment, so that tracks.
My favorite type of person is one who thinks anyone who disagrees with their wrong opinions is a lIbErAl, whatever the fuck that even means.
this website made my firefox on mobile crash. twice.
That’s a cool Ocasio-Cortez pose. It sort of reminds me of some Jesus poses from all the biblical drawings (which all come from not the Bible since it didn’t come with pictures in it, so they are made up, but I digress)
Does anyone else feel like it sets a really bad precedent to attack anyone running under a different party?
Nope.
That’s how all elections work?
nah she’s right. Jill Stein just runs as a spoiler and she hasn’t done shit in the meantime. RFK wanted to do the same thing but he was too crazy so he spoiled the red votes more so he quit to openly help the red ticket. Jill Stein is just not as open about it.
What have they done to not earn the hate? I don’t see them getting any national offices, and you only really hear about the greens during presidential election cycles.
So yeah, they’re just a joke spoiler party and deserve to be called as such when they’re only really getting national attention on the presidential run with 0 existing infrastructure.
Nah. This “attack” is calling into question her work in politics. She wants to be president but does fuck all for years and springs up when it’s convenient?
Next question.
does fuck all for years and springs up when it’s convenient
Oh I didn’t know she was a Democrat.
democracy enjoyers when people vote for parties that best represent their interests: 😡😡😡😡😡😡
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AOC states that Jill Stein somehow leads the most decentralized political party in the US, does so from a position that holds nearly zero organizational authority, and that their primary electoral goals are anything other than Secretary of State to ensure fair treatment in ballot access. Stein wasn’t even the nominee last cycle.
AOC is not ignorant. She’s sold her soul to neoliberals.
Wonder where Stein’s money comes from right before elections.
Some people are asking.
Definitely not from the treasury department despite qualifying for public financing.
It is admittedly a little ironic that the Greens’ existence has likely resulted in the rollback of environmental regulations. It’s almost like their top leadership post-Nader is just accelerationist in philosophy.
I trust Greens to protect environmental policies much more than the DNC, they would follow through with their promises and not just spout populous bullshit while doing nothing.
What actions have the Greens taken to inspire your confidence?
I trust Greens to protect environmental policies much more than the DNC
Idk if I “trust” them to do anything, per say. I’ve never seen a Green candidate assume office.
But the argument I see from Democrats is that you have to vote for the liberal guy accepting kickbacks and sinecures from the O&G industry or you’ll get the conservative guy accepting kickbacks and sinecures from the O&G industry, instead. My current crop of Dem-aligned city and state officials are hugely in the tank for the petroleum industry, they’ve done little more than greenwashing when it comes to waste management and sustainable development in their districts, and they are openly hostile to environmental groups in town.
If the Green Party becomes the refuge for people disillusioned with the O&G aligned local democrats, who is to blame for that? Insidious Machiavellian Jill Stein? Nefarious GOP ratfvckers? The shadowy hand of Vladimir Putin? Or the Democrats who consistently fail to deliver mass transit, waste recycling, and environmental regulation, even within their base strongholds?
The greens hold over 140 offices across 20 states.
Funny that you can readily cite this statistic but don’t actually link to what those offices are. Out of embarrassment, maybe? Or maybe because it would show that the Greens are an extremely fringe third-party in no position at all to run a candidate for POTUS except as a Russian-planted spoiler for the GOP?
They do have a handful of municipal offices scattered nationwide. Do they have any state legislative offices?
I’m not entirely clear on the policy consequences of these wins, though. Are they just rebranded Dems, or do they have a real Sanders/Ventura-esque impact on how these governments operate?
In a country of 300 million people. You calling this some kind of achievement?
- Populist.
I don’t. They’re not a serious party, and due to how shitty our electoral process is, all they do at the end of the day is strip votes from the Democratic candidates.
I wish that wasn’t how our elections worked, but it is. Pretending that’s not the case is a self-defeating strategy.
They’re not stripping away votes that they are not entitled to, that’s not how things work. We wouldn’t vote for your shitty candidates if they were the only one on the ballot.
Tell me you don’t understand the tactical implications of FPTP without telling me you don’t understand the tactical implications of FPTP
This isn’t about “my shitty candidates”. Stop being obtuse. You are intentionally confusing the issue and misleading people.
There is no confusion, if liberals were so concerned about my vote and getting FPTP then they should abandon their party and support 3rd options.
Yes, they are shitty candidates. When their only policy is ‘joy’ and people are falling for it, they are shitty
Good luck convincing 70+ million people to vote for your shitty Russian stooge.
their only policy is ‘joy’
Nice talking point, but it’s a little out of date at this point. You should ask for the updated list.
Nobody is entitled to any votes.
We wouldn’t vote for either of your shitty Putin compromised candidates even if they were they were the only ones on the ballot.
Enjoy another loss
A loss for us is a loss for everyone, including you. Unless you don’t live here, which would explain a hell of a lot
k1nsey sits in a nondescript building in Moscow with a desk and a computer next to 120 other people. The pay isnt great but it keeps him out of Ukraine.
It’s great that they can pretend that’d be the case while standing literally no possible risk of being elected. It’s easy to stand by your morals when there is no risk at all of having to defend or enact them.
And that sweet sweet Putin money.
I would rather vote for what I want in government and not get it than to vote against something and get it anyway. Democrats voted against Trump and his policies in 2020 and got someone keeping his worst policies, and now want someone even further to the right than Biden was.
This is a completely infantile concept. You wanna throw a tantrum for something you want, regardless of how asinine or unlikely it is, and despite all facts pointing to its irrationality? smdh. 🖕🏽
Look at their comment history. Joined almost exactly a year ago, had maybe 5-ish comments. Then a month ago, Harris replaces Biden giving Democrats a solid chance at the presidency, and suddenly they now have around 200 comments, every single one of them being in /c/politics and promoting Jill Stein and conflating Kamala Harris with Republicans (e.g. calling her voters “BlueMAGA”).
I don’t care if it’s their intended goal or not; the actual effect of their rhetoric is “I want enough leftists to throw their vote away to a Russian plant so the US elects a fascist into office.”
Voting for the same people and policies and expecting a different result is the infantile concept
And, just to be clear, how has voting Green ever changed literally anything?
Just to be clear how has voting for the same people expecting different results changed literally anything? We are having the exact same conversations about wages, housing, employment, healthcare education, etc. that they were having during the civil rights movements, that they were having during the Great depression. If we’re continuing to have the exact same conversations, things are not getting any better
You do realize everyone here recognizes how terrible you are at being a troll, right? …right?
So voting for a random third party and changing absolutely nothing is an infantile concept?
That’s the exact argument against voting for Green party candidates.
With what power? If the Green party continues doing nothing, gaining no local seats, no congressional seats, then how are they protecting environmental policy?
They’re helping Trump win like they helped him win in 2016 by acting as a spoiler party, and everyone knows that Trump is a champion of the environment.
Spoiler doesn’t exist, we would never vote for your politicians even if they were the only ones on the ballot. If it wasnt for Hillary and Co Trump would have never won. The person YOU supported gave us trump.
Then they should join the DNC and reform it from the inside. Join the progressive movement. Shift the Dems back to the center-left. All they’re doing as a separate party is siphon votes away from DNC, which gives an advantage to the RNC, which erodes their own efforts to push green policies.
Reforming from the inside is liberal fantasy. The party is operating as designed and they will not allow anyone to vote away their power.
The solution is to abandon the DNC and support an actual party representing the working class. 3rd party’s do not siphon away votes because we wouldn’t vote for your party if there were no 3rd option on the ballot. We are not democrats so we would not vote for a democrat
In a first past the post democracy there is no 3rd party. There is only the thing that is slightly better. Who is better in everything you want? Trump or Harris? If you say something else. But Harris is Closer to what you want and you choose the 3rd option you are choosing to help Trump win in your state. You choosing 3rd party is one less vote Trump has to win. If you want the green parties policies Trump is the furthest away from it. The time to move the party was during the primary. Now we have to vote for the furthest left thing that has the strongest chance of winning OR we get the right wing thing. Potentially never getting a chance to vote again if you listen to Trump.
The most minuscule way protest votes are possible is if you live in an overwhelmingly Blue state and you know Harris will win sure vote 3rd party but in Georgia when 11,000 people decided the outcome we can’t risk a movement of voting 3rd party. Title 9 , abortion, climate change belief in government, federal agencies, EPA, postal service, FTC, SEC, redistricting to make fair election maps for the senate and congress, manufacturing, and so much more is on the chopping block for Trump and Republicans let alone more supreme court and federal judges
That sounds like a bunch of lesser evil bullshit, lesser evil doesnt exist. That’s bullshit liberals tell themselves to make them feel better for not having the proverbial balls to vote their conscience and do what’s right. It prolongs the suffering of marginalized because they prefer a slow agonizing death over a quick one. There is also the choice of no death. 50.yesrs of liberal ‘lesser evil’ has grown into an enormous one that they can’t control. This is the bed they made and want non Democrats to help them out of the mess they created. Good luck
I voted 3rd party as a protest vote in a few elections up to 2012, but I recognized that it was exactly that. I also have lived through a term with Trump as president. Because of Trump, women in this country have lost their reproductive rights. That is just the most obvious example of how he has hurt this country. The fact you are still not recognizing that Trump regaining the presidency is an existential threat to democracy is exasperating, especially when the majority of Democrats are allies to a good portion of the Green Party’s so-called platform. Ultimately, you need to face facts: Stein is clearly a shill for Putin and a spoiler for the election.
The protest vote is a vote of capitulation for the duopoly. A 3rd party vote cast out of conviction is a vote for democracy. Yours is based on fear and irrationality.
Dems are only mouth pieces for progress, all talk, zero action. Rince and repeat every election cycle.
I am sure your moral high ground will comfort you when Trump opens concentration camps in our own country for the undocumented (among others), and we literally live in A Handmaiden’s Tale. When the “dictator on day one” throws away our constitution and strips our lives away, remember how stoic you are! It could be the last election your vote is even counted for the Green Party, so I hope you are proud of your convictions!
The Dems aren’t perfect, but they aren’t comprised by Russia like both The Green Party and the GOP. Yes, I’m scared. I saw what happened last time. Why the hell aren’t you?
Like a rabbit in the open terrified of the wind. Everything you claimed is hyperbole
He won’t care because he’s not in our country.
Putin owns this lady. You’re a dumb, bad, selfish person, Jill.
Ah yes the tried and true Democrat response to any criticism from the folks on the left
Step 1. Blame Russia Step 2. ??? Step 3. Profit
She just responded to AOC…
Jill seems to think the Dems are running Biden.
Care to drop some key policy differences between Harris and Biden?
Downvoted by 14 people, no single answer
i got an answer for ya. shut your stupid fucking mouth kid
Removed, civility.
Go on with the ad-hominem, still can’t answer. Blue MAGA indeed
That’s not what an ad hominem is. Unsurprising that you don’t understand that, since you also think “Blue MAGA” is a real thing.
Stance on Israel
Harris was talking big on housing recently. That was stuff I never heard from Biden. Did she mean it? I think no, but I could be wrong.
Maybe if Harris would actually post a policy plan I’d have more enthusiasm about her. Real frustrating to see another Dem candidate trying to appear progressive while actively saying nothing and towing party line.
Walz is a boss tho.
You’re getting downvoted for asking for policy plans from a politician. What bunch of idiots would elect a POLITICIAN that has NO POLICY PLATFORM OUTLINED
Lol figures. I’m like I wanna go out an canvas: what are my talking points, for real. It’s feeling like I’m with her all over again.
Progressive politics are popular! Run on them ffs. I don’t want this we’re not going back crap. All the party is earning at this point is my begrudging vote because duh the other option is worse.
This election could be a landslide instead it’s still polling within margin of error.
The epitome of useful idiot on the left.
