So the federal government will hold a substantial amount of Bitcoin? Presumably by the Treasury? Who will make policy decisions and regulations about how the bitcoin can be held and distributed across the government? And this will be different than our current system because the money is in the computer now?
With USD, the government can print as much of it as they want. With BTC, nobody has that ability. What this means is that if you have USD as a result of your labor, someone else can print as much as they want, which robs you of your labor. Wealthy people know this very well, so they hold their value in businesses or real estate or other things that only the wealthy have access to, but absolutely not USD or other fiat currencies. Anyone can hold their labor in BTC, and nobody, not even the government, can print it privately to rob you of your value.
That alone is enough to make it an excellent currency, but it goes way beyond that. Anyone can send any amount of BTC to anyone else in the world instantly for almost no fee. BTC can be divided down as small as desired, making it useful for many things that USD isn’t. The list goes on from there. This is why, a decade ago, when people were ridiculing btc as never being worth “real” money, so many intelligent people were able to predict just how useful and popular it would become.
There is nothing magical about holding a whole number bitcoin.
I did say “value” as well, bitcoin has undeniably proven itself as an excellent store of value.
Anyone can mine it according to agreed upon rules, nobody has special control over it.
You absolutely can send it instantly for almost no fee. That’s the only way I send it. I use the lightning network to send BTC like millions of other people.
You know so little about something you think you know so much about. You have just absolutely proven your ignorance repeatedly. It’s time to slide the keyboard to the side and start doing a little research.
I did say “value” as well, bitcoin has undeniably proven itself as an excellent store of value.
Oh yes, massive volatility and no official backing make it a great store…
You absolutely can send it instantly for almost no fee. That’s the only way I send it. I use the lightning network to send BTC like millions of other people.
So you can cheaply do Bitcoin transactioms… By not doing Bitcoin transactions and taking your exchange off of the blockchain, thereby negating most of the advantages. And by doing that you’re relying on trusted third parties with special powers for fraud prevention, which goes against everything most crypto people applaud?
You know so little about something you think you know so much about.
Ah yes, personal insults really make your argument more persuasive and informative, and always do wonders to motivate people.
Lightning network doesn’t involve trusted 3rd parties, and it is directly connected to the blockchain in a trustless 2nd layer network.
Whatever, sometimes it’s volatile, that has decreased massively over the years, and during all that volatility, it was consistently rapidly increasing in value. Not only is it not inflating like even the best fiat currencies, it has outperformed every other asset or investment in the last 10 years.
Pointing out that you are talking with confidence about things that you can’t even be bothered to research is an important thing to say because there are people who will mistake your confidence for actual knowledge. The appropriate behavior is to research and say things you learned. When they are refuted, you should check to see if maybe you were mistaken, not double down because you dislike the feeling of being wrong.
Lightning network doesn’t involve trusted 3rd parties, and it is directly connected to the blockchain in a trustless 2nd layer network.
What are nodes and watchtowers? The way the whole layer works basically negates all the upsides of Bitcoin transactions, stripping much of the privacy aspect: https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.12470
There are much, much better cryptocoins out there, and it’s a much more nuanced case there. Bitcoin with lightning transactions are basically a less safe, more power hungry and more complex way to be less safe than with a normal bank.
Hell, even the original developers are leaving the Lightning project because they don’t support whats going on.
I’m not very interested in cryptocurrency generally but I’m interested in how the tech works–in addition to the aforementioned issues with security if one party controls a significant amount of the lightning network, wouldn’t lightning also be inefficient if a large percentage of transactions are one-offs? It would generate a transaction on the blockchain to open the payment channel between two accounts and a second transaction to close the account, correct? So if the actual number of transactions is two or less it doesn’t offer any actual advantage?
This is one of the most ignorant bonerjams for crypto I think I’ve ever read. What you’re saying is why a government would want crypto…from your own perspective.
Governments have a Treasury and print currency for a reason, whether you like that or think it’s fair or not. One surefire way to fuck up control of your own currency system is putting it on a system with public accounting and access. Never going to happen. If anything, they would make their own digital currency, which then nobody will use for obvious reasons.
Governments don’t want crypto. Trump is only saying this because he is appealing to crypto investors and crypto bros. There is no way this is ever implemented.
A large number of Democratic politicians just signed a letter saying they want the exact same thing. I just posted it in a comment, or you can search it. They released it on July 26th, 2024. I commented it yesterday.
Governments do want BTC, and governments all around the world are holding it. Every year, governments hold more and more of it. This is public information. The fact that it disagrees with your imagination doesn’t change the facts.
Governments hold all kinds of investments thats not relevant to what is being discussed. The above comment was talking about goverments using crypto as a reserve currency. Governments holding crypto would only be relevant if it was a majority of their investment portfolio which would be fucking insane.
We shall see. At the moments both Dems and Republicans are discussing it, it is becoming a non-partisan issue as we speak. It is a matter of getting ahead of any other country that realizes its value and use. Citizens are welcome to come along for the ride and help equalize wealth inequality, or they can stay uneducated and bitter and stuck in the past.
You just explained emphatically why no country will ever want to hold gold. The US holds 19% of the world’s gold. Maybe you want to reconsider your stance.
Nobody is going to hold crypto over gold. I don’t even understand where you’re coming from on that one.
Put it this way, crypto has no use on this planet except in the crypto bro hemisphere because:
no government would ever allow their transactions to be tracked
no government would ever allow their Treasury transactions to live on a blockchain
the US Dollar is backed by gold and silver
Crypto only works in the here and no. Say there is a nuclear war that wipes out half the planet. Crypto ain’t surviving that.
If you’re of the frame of mind that crypto in any way shape or form works “all the time”, you’ve been in the game too long and have lost perspective. It works solely for individuals in the here and now of this very specific point in time on our planet, and that’s about it.
Yeah, heard it all before. They said nobody would ever give real money for internet points. They were wrong. They said a bitcoin would never be worth a dollar. They were wrong. They said no government would ever acknowledge bitcoin. They were wrong. They said no US government would ever accept bitcoin for taxes. They were wrong. They said no government would ever make it a national currency. They were wrong. They said bitcoin will never be worth 10,000 USD. They were wrong. But sure, I’m sure you are positive it will never go any further, that governments would use it as a reserve currency. I’m sure you’re accurately calling the next line.
If half the world is nuked to hell, then gold or special paper isn’t going to buy you bread either.
Only one way to find out who’s right, the people who have consistently been right for over a decade or the people who have consistently been wrong. You’re free to place your bets wherever you choose. If you prefer your value to disintegrate by inflation to save your fragile ego, then more power to you, it doesn’t change what’s happening in the slightest. Upcoming generations can see it clearly, you can be the elder stuck in the past or the one that embraces the future. The only one that it affects is you. Your choice.
Being wrong in the trajectory or worth of something is one. Knowing the limitations and real-world applications of it is another. You still can’t go to any store and use crypto, can’t use it offline, can’t trade it offline, and can’t store it offline (don’t get me started with hardware wallets, the chain is still online). Governments would never use it for this reason. Trading something online because you can catch profits in its market is something done with produce. It’s no different than any other profit scheme in a tradable good whose value is determined by what people will pay for it.
As far as El Salvador…oof. How’s that going for them? Not so well.
Also, your point in inflation…wow, you don’t seem to understand economics. Any physical good sold is prone to inflation due to supply and demand. The currency doesn’t determine how inflation works at all, so I’m not sure where you got that from.
Example: Florida grows oranges and are literally falling from trees, while Maine doesn’t have the climate to support that type of agriculture. Therefore, oranges are cheap in Florida, but more expensive in Maine due to transport costs. Suddenly, there’s a bad hurricane or cold snap in Florida that wipes out an entire years worth of orange crops. Now you have inflated Orange prices, the price of fertilizer goes up in Florida, agriculture equipment demand goes up in Florida, and orange farmers have less money to operate for the next growing season. Inflation.
Bitcoin prevents the arbitrary creation of new currency by a single powerful entity. I don’t know who told you that creating tons of usd can’t affect inflation, but you literally will find no economist claiming this. This isn’t in the slightest a disputed claim. It seems like you’ve come into economics through some sort of anti-crypto mindset, and now you just assume that anything you heard from a “cryptobro” must be the opposite of the truth. Just take a sec to think about how people who are always wrong have created the 9th most valuable asset in the history of the world. Maybe your armchair hunches may need an adjustment.
Printing currency devalues it…that’s how that works. If you’re unfamiliar with the concept, and don’t want a boring read about it, read on how it’s been used in espionage.
My point is that (read this carefully): absolutely no government on this planet with any substantial worth would EVER give up control of its Treasury. Thinking that governments are just looking for a better system is wrong. That’s not what they need to manipulate global currency inflections and to control actual valuation of flowing currency in their favor. You’re assuming they are looking for a solution to economic fluctuations, which is also wrong. Bitcoin solves none of this just by existing.
I think you’re just too far gone, friend. You don’t seem to understand the basic functions of an economy, and are focused on the crypto line of “we were right!”. What Bitcoin holders were right about was making a digital transaction worth something that others would pay for, reasoning aside. It could have also not worked out that way as well, just like practically 99.99999% of all other crypto currencies that launched. It’s only worth what people are willing to pay for it, which is something the crypto faithful don’t like bringing up. They also don’t like bringing up that vision of Bitcoin’s usefulness has still not come to pass. Everyday retailers aren’t using it, the majority of people aren’t walking around transferring BTC in offline wallets, and you still can’t directly trade it for currency without a transient middleman who is backing the transaction with their own hard currency (Coin banks and what it).
So the cryptobro crowd was right about the valuation, which is largely bolstered by their own trading, and wrong about everything. It’s still just worth whatever people are willing to pay for it.
It’s going fantastic for El Salvador, I don’t know why you would think differently. It is hilarious hearing someone say you can’t use btc in the real world. I use it for Uber, airbnb, groceries, amazon, flights, restaurants, and way more. I think you are imagining the state of bitcoin at least 7 or 8 years ago, things have changed tremendously. The largest retail stores in Japan accept it directly. Many of the largest stores across Europe take it. There are countless resteraunts all over the world taking it directly. There are literally thousands of atms across Europe that will exchange it for cash. There are many 2nd world countries that use it regularly across Africa and South East Asia, South America, the list goes on and on. Your information really truly is way outdated. The future got here long ago, but I guess there are still bubbles of people completely oblivious.
The currency doesn’t affect inflation? If every day the number of usd doubles, would that increase inflation, decrease it, or keep the value the same? That is extreme, but it should really clear things up for you.
You are right that if there are less oranges and the same demand, then oranges will go up in price. Now apply that same logic to the currency itself. If there is more of a currency and not more demand for it, should the value of that currency go up or down?
This really isn’t complicated economics, I guarantee that if you crack open any intro to economics textbook, you will have your current understanding completely annihilated.
An agreed upon set of rules where everyone has an equal opportunity to support the system in exchange for a reward. If you get caught printing usd, then guys with guns come and shut you down because you’re not allowed to do that. Only the government can do that. In BTC, everyone has equal rights to it, and this right is enforced by math.
So the federal government will hold a substantial amount of Bitcoin? Presumably by the Treasury? Who will make policy decisions and regulations about how the bitcoin can be held and distributed across the government? And this will be different than our current system because the money is in the computer now?
With USD, the government can print as much of it as they want. With BTC, nobody has that ability. What this means is that if you have USD as a result of your labor, someone else can print as much as they want, which robs you of your labor. Wealthy people know this very well, so they hold their value in businesses or real estate or other things that only the wealthy have access to, but absolutely not USD or other fiat currencies. Anyone can hold their labor in BTC, and nobody, not even the government, can print it privately to rob you of your value.
That alone is enough to make it an excellent currency, but it goes way beyond that. Anyone can send any amount of BTC to anyone else in the world instantly for almost no fee. BTC can be divided down as small as desired, making it useful for many things that USD isn’t. The list goes on from there. This is why, a decade ago, when people were ridiculing btc as never being worth “real” money, so many intelligent people were able to predict just how useful and popular it would become.
Anyone can buy fractional shares.
I notice you didn’t say “value”, which is smart.
Everyone can print it privately. And it’s insanely easy to get robbed.
That is amazingly, blatantly and intentionally false. Bitcoin transactions are horribly expensive in real life.
Oh my, you have gotten some terrible information.
There is nothing magical about holding a whole number bitcoin.
I did say “value” as well, bitcoin has undeniably proven itself as an excellent store of value.
Anyone can mine it according to agreed upon rules, nobody has special control over it.
You absolutely can send it instantly for almost no fee. That’s the only way I send it. I use the lightning network to send BTC like millions of other people.
You know so little about something you think you know so much about. You have just absolutely proven your ignorance repeatedly. It’s time to slide the keyboard to the side and start doing a little research.
Oh yes, massive volatility and no official backing make it a great store…
So you can cheaply do Bitcoin transactioms… By not doing Bitcoin transactions and taking your exchange off of the blockchain, thereby negating most of the advantages. And by doing that you’re relying on trusted third parties with special powers for fraud prevention, which goes against everything most crypto people applaud?
Ah yes, personal insults really make your argument more persuasive and informative, and always do wonders to motivate people.
Lightning network doesn’t involve trusted 3rd parties, and it is directly connected to the blockchain in a trustless 2nd layer network.
Whatever, sometimes it’s volatile, that has decreased massively over the years, and during all that volatility, it was consistently rapidly increasing in value. Not only is it not inflating like even the best fiat currencies, it has outperformed every other asset or investment in the last 10 years.
Pointing out that you are talking with confidence about things that you can’t even be bothered to research is an important thing to say because there are people who will mistake your confidence for actual knowledge. The appropriate behavior is to research and say things you learned. When they are refuted, you should check to see if maybe you were mistaken, not double down because you dislike the feeling of being wrong.
What are nodes and watchtowers? The way the whole layer works basically negates all the upsides of Bitcoin transactions, stripping much of the privacy aspect: https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.12470
There are much, much better cryptocoins out there, and it’s a much more nuanced case there. Bitcoin with lightning transactions are basically a less safe, more power hungry and more complex way to be less safe than with a normal bank.
Hell, even the original developers are leaving the Lightning project because they don’t support whats going on.
I’m not very interested in cryptocurrency generally but I’m interested in how the tech works–in addition to the aforementioned issues with security if one party controls a significant amount of the lightning network, wouldn’t lightning also be inefficient if a large percentage of transactions are one-offs? It would generate a transaction on the blockchain to open the payment channel between two accounts and a second transaction to close the account, correct? So if the actual number of transactions is two or less it doesn’t offer any actual advantage?
Someone memorized the script really well.
This is one of the most ignorant bonerjams for crypto I think I’ve ever read. What you’re saying is why a government would want crypto…from your own perspective.
Governments have a Treasury and print currency for a reason, whether you like that or think it’s fair or not. One surefire way to fuck up control of your own currency system is putting it on a system with public accounting and access. Never going to happen. If anything, they would make their own digital currency, which then nobody will use for obvious reasons.
Governments don’t want crypto. Trump is only saying this because he is appealing to crypto investors and crypto bros. There is no way this is ever implemented.
A large number of Democratic politicians just signed a letter saying they want the exact same thing. I just posted it in a comment, or you can search it. They released it on July 26th, 2024. I commented it yesterday.
I think you underestimate the willingness of the sycophants in his administration to do his bidding.
Governments do want BTC, and governments all around the world are holding it. Every year, governments hold more and more of it. This is public information. The fact that it disagrees with your imagination doesn’t change the facts.
Governments hold all kinds of investments thats not relevant to what is being discussed. The above comment was talking about goverments using crypto as a reserve currency. Governments holding crypto would only be relevant if it was a majority of their investment portfolio which would be fucking insane.
We shall see. At the moments both Dems and Republicans are discussing it, it is becoming a non-partisan issue as we speak. It is a matter of getting ahead of any other country that realizes its value and use. Citizens are welcome to come along for the ride and help equalize wealth inequality, or they can stay uneducated and bitter and stuck in the past.
You just explained emphatically why no country will ever want to hold gold. The US holds 19% of the world’s gold. Maybe you want to reconsider your stance.
Nobody is going to hold crypto over gold. I don’t even understand where you’re coming from on that one.
Put it this way, crypto has no use on this planet except in the crypto bro hemisphere because:
If you’re of the frame of mind that crypto in any way shape or form works “all the time”, you’ve been in the game too long and have lost perspective. It works solely for individuals in the here and now of this very specific point in time on our planet, and that’s about it.
Yeah, heard it all before. They said nobody would ever give real money for internet points. They were wrong. They said a bitcoin would never be worth a dollar. They were wrong. They said no government would ever acknowledge bitcoin. They were wrong. They said no US government would ever accept bitcoin for taxes. They were wrong. They said no government would ever make it a national currency. They were wrong. They said bitcoin will never be worth 10,000 USD. They were wrong. But sure, I’m sure you are positive it will never go any further, that governments would use it as a reserve currency. I’m sure you’re accurately calling the next line.
If half the world is nuked to hell, then gold or special paper isn’t going to buy you bread either.
Only one way to find out who’s right, the people who have consistently been right for over a decade or the people who have consistently been wrong. You’re free to place your bets wherever you choose. If you prefer your value to disintegrate by inflation to save your fragile ego, then more power to you, it doesn’t change what’s happening in the slightest. Upcoming generations can see it clearly, you can be the elder stuck in the past or the one that embraces the future. The only one that it affects is you. Your choice.
Being wrong in the trajectory or worth of something is one. Knowing the limitations and real-world applications of it is another. You still can’t go to any store and use crypto, can’t use it offline, can’t trade it offline, and can’t store it offline (don’t get me started with hardware wallets, the chain is still online). Governments would never use it for this reason. Trading something online because you can catch profits in its market is something done with produce. It’s no different than any other profit scheme in a tradable good whose value is determined by what people will pay for it.
As far as El Salvador…oof. How’s that going for them? Not so well.
Also, your point in inflation…wow, you don’t seem to understand economics. Any physical good sold is prone to inflation due to supply and demand. The currency doesn’t determine how inflation works at all, so I’m not sure where you got that from.
Example: Florida grows oranges and are literally falling from trees, while Maine doesn’t have the climate to support that type of agriculture. Therefore, oranges are cheap in Florida, but more expensive in Maine due to transport costs. Suddenly, there’s a bad hurricane or cold snap in Florida that wipes out an entire years worth of orange crops. Now you have inflated Orange prices, the price of fertilizer goes up in Florida, agriculture equipment demand goes up in Florida, and orange farmers have less money to operate for the next growing season. Inflation.
How are you thinking Bitcoin solves any of this?
Bitcoin prevents the arbitrary creation of new currency by a single powerful entity. I don’t know who told you that creating tons of usd can’t affect inflation, but you literally will find no economist claiming this. This isn’t in the slightest a disputed claim. It seems like you’ve come into economics through some sort of anti-crypto mindset, and now you just assume that anything you heard from a “cryptobro” must be the opposite of the truth. Just take a sec to think about how people who are always wrong have created the 9th most valuable asset in the history of the world. Maybe your armchair hunches may need an adjustment.
Printing currency devalues it…that’s how that works. If you’re unfamiliar with the concept, and don’t want a boring read about it, read on how it’s been used in espionage.
My point is that (read this carefully): absolutely no government on this planet with any substantial worth would EVER give up control of its Treasury. Thinking that governments are just looking for a better system is wrong. That’s not what they need to manipulate global currency inflections and to control actual valuation of flowing currency in their favor. You’re assuming they are looking for a solution to economic fluctuations, which is also wrong. Bitcoin solves none of this just by existing.
I think you’re just too far gone, friend. You don’t seem to understand the basic functions of an economy, and are focused on the crypto line of “we were right!”. What Bitcoin holders were right about was making a digital transaction worth something that others would pay for, reasoning aside. It could have also not worked out that way as well, just like practically 99.99999% of all other crypto currencies that launched. It’s only worth what people are willing to pay for it, which is something the crypto faithful don’t like bringing up. They also don’t like bringing up that vision of Bitcoin’s usefulness has still not come to pass. Everyday retailers aren’t using it, the majority of people aren’t walking around transferring BTC in offline wallets, and you still can’t directly trade it for currency without a transient middleman who is backing the transaction with their own hard currency (Coin banks and what it).
So the cryptobro crowd was right about the valuation, which is largely bolstered by their own trading, and wrong about everything. It’s still just worth whatever people are willing to pay for it.
It’s going fantastic for El Salvador, I don’t know why you would think differently. It is hilarious hearing someone say you can’t use btc in the real world. I use it for Uber, airbnb, groceries, amazon, flights, restaurants, and way more. I think you are imagining the state of bitcoin at least 7 or 8 years ago, things have changed tremendously. The largest retail stores in Japan accept it directly. Many of the largest stores across Europe take it. There are countless resteraunts all over the world taking it directly. There are literally thousands of atms across Europe that will exchange it for cash. There are many 2nd world countries that use it regularly across Africa and South East Asia, South America, the list goes on and on. Your information really truly is way outdated. The future got here long ago, but I guess there are still bubbles of people completely oblivious.
Stagnant economy, and global trade down as GDP is also reducing: https://www.reuters.com/technology/short-cash-el-salvador-doubles-down-bitcoin-dream-2024-02-02/
Bitcoin solves no problems here. Same issues as any currency.
Regular people say the “crypto dream” doesn’t work as advertised:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/17otops/just_got_back_from_el_salvador_thoughts_on_bitcoin/
Every dip in the market destroys net worth:
https://www.npr.org/2022/06/19/1106168947/what-the-crypto-collapse-means-for-el-salvadors-economy
The currency doesn’t affect inflation? If every day the number of usd doubles, would that increase inflation, decrease it, or keep the value the same? That is extreme, but it should really clear things up for you.
You are right that if there are less oranges and the same demand, then oranges will go up in price. Now apply that same logic to the currency itself. If there is more of a currency and not more demand for it, should the value of that currency go up or down?
This really isn’t complicated economics, I guarantee that if you crack open any intro to economics textbook, you will have your current understanding completely annihilated.
Responded elsewhere, but again, this is called devaluation.
check out the eRupee
What’s mining again?
An agreed upon set of rules where everyone has an equal opportunity to support the system in exchange for a reward. If you get caught printing usd, then guys with guns come and shut you down because you’re not allowed to do that. Only the government can do that. In BTC, everyone has equal rights to it, and this right is enforced by math.