You seem to believe that progress and maintenance of the status-quo can easily remedy the damage done by a legitimate fascist regime as seen in the Trump party. Even if you got your dream candidate in after another 4 years of Trump, they wouldn’t be able to reverse the damage done – simply due to entropy, and quite possibly due to the fact that our Democratic system would be completely broken after another 4 years. I don’t see any evidence whatsoever that there is anyone who can rally the Trump cult base who has affixed themselves to his personality. DeSantis was supposed to be a more finely-groomed copy of Trump and he failed miserably. Republicans hitched their wagon to Trump and with him goes the party for better or worse.
By all means, try to influence Biden to further action. However the calculus is pretty simple:
If your goal is to minimize genocide, both in Palestine and Ukraine.
If your goal is to ensure that we don’t fall further into fascism.
If the choices on the ballot in November are a constant, regardless of anything else that happens.
If you understand the nature of entropy in that maintaining let alone building-upon a trillion-piece puzzle is exceedingly more taxing than smashing it.
If other guy is significantly-worse for Ukrainians, Palestinians, US, and the World.
If you understand the mathematical trend of FPTP and the Spoiler Effect.
… Then one understands the logical choice is voting for Biden and doing anything else from not voting, voting Republican, voting 3rd-party, writing-in – is utterly self-defeating and short-sighted to the aforementioned goals.
If you don’t understand these things, then yes, one might have built their ardent beliefs atop a house of cards.
Of course if Biden gets ahead of the polls, pulls aid too quickly, he risks jeopordizing the votes of nearly 7 million Jewish-American voters who still strongly support Israel. He risks losing independents who 1/3 side with Israel and 1/3 are undecided on whether Israel is going too far. So until you and I can convince THOSE people that what Israel is doing is wrong, then it’s natural for Biden’s team to be wary of losing those critical votes (who dwarf the Muslim population and dwarf the progressive population).
biden will push us further into fascism just as he has for the past 50 years. voting for him does not, in fact, ensure we don’t fall further into fascism.
i can believe the other guy is worse without believing its moral to help biden maintain power.
You say entropy dictates that the perfect candidate will not achieve leftward momentum. And you offer me… entropy in its stead. Great. By that logic there is no winning out come, just a march into tyranny, in which i get to decide the speed at which we fall! How delightful. If that is the case, then we should just cut to the chase and get on with the Revolution. Its better done sooner rather than later wile we still have some freedoms and the highest chance at success! And if it fails, then we have the result of the current trajectory anyways.
Or we can wrestle control of the Democratic Party. Start shifting that window heading back to the left.
No I offer you stability. If one imagines the complexity of our collective system as a trillion-piece puzzle, what you suggest is to simply let the side who has openly broadcasted that they intend to smash it with a hammer. What I offer is at least some semblance of stability; sure perhaps some pieces break off here and there. At best, it sets us up to be able to build upon that puzzle down the road. In this crisis when faced with the dichotomy between stability and chaos, yes I’ll take stability anytime. And even if one argues the former isn’t perfectly stable, it only has to be better when choosing between two inevitable outcomes.
There’s no evidence of some “Revolution,” impending – only more suffering and oppression. You seem to admit that your interest is not in caring about the suffering of Palestinians or Ukrainians. Unlike you clearly, I have kids to think about. Palestinians would rather just get the guy who has publicly resisted Israel’s actions as opposed to wholeheartedly emrbaced. Meanwhile Ukrainians know the fate of their country is at stake.
… And here you are trying to wax poetry about some violent revolution…? Please…
I’m happy to wrestle with the Democratic party… But there’s a time and place. That time and place is most obviously during primaries – especially during non-incumbent years when we are teetering on full-blown fascism. Moreover if you feel that strongly about it then be the change you wish to see and run for office.
Otherwise please stop playing chicken with full-blown fascism and trying to drive wedges among Biden voters. The only people thanking you are Trump, Putin, and Bibi. At the same time, Ukrainians and Palestinians weep.
Here i am mocked as an armchair warrior, with one hand dismissing my point of view and with the other saying that i don’t actually care because i didn’t do anything warrior like.
Your stability is poison, its complacency with the status quo. The status quo that is currently systematically harming the innocent.
You also claim that i have some anterior motive and am using Palestinian children as a pawn for some yet undeclared actual motivation. Turns out, i support Palestine for the same reasons i support Ukraine, and i balk at the restrictions the US puts on the aid we give Ukraine, just like i resent Biden for not doing it for isreal.
And the gall of accusing me of anterior motives when you openly state the reason you want stability is that its not your problem because it’s not affecting you or yours! Such unethical and short sighted thinking will damn us all.
Hey buddy, you threw the first punch in this thread; I was merely reciprocating the same tone I was dealt. If you don’t like it served back, then don’t dish it out. I will happily reflect the level of courtesy I am shown. Moving on.
What systemically-harms the innocent more is giving in to full-blown fascism. There is no group you’re trying to speak for – Palestinians, Ukrainians, or women who lost Roe thanks to Trump – who would legitimately do better under or prefer Trump over Biden. That’s pretty much the end of it and all that counts at this stage of the game.
In that respect stability is by no means poison; it’s a means to maintain what we’ve got lest we take further steps back – e.g., letting Trump stack the courts even more
It’s really insightful how you neglect to place blame on Republicans for blocking aid to Ukraine, while you name Biden specifically in holding aid for Israel. What a curious double-standard in levying blame.
you openly state the reason you want stability is that its not your problem because it’s not affecting you or yours! Such unethical and short sighted thinking will damn us all.
Don’t play strawman games with me, please; they are childish. Quite the opposite: you’re trying to speak on behalf of Ukrainians and Palestinians when they overwhelmingly support Biden over Trump and their lives are on the line. If Trump gets in, MORE genocide will occur for both. And in that respect, I am the one who cares about these two groups because I know that LESS genocide is better than MORE genocide when faced with an ultimatum between two inevitable choices. Evidently, you do not.
I don’t want trump to win either. What i want is either the Democratic Party to put up a candidate that is more progressive, or correct Biden on his current actions. My options to achieve that is by design limited. I voted against him in the primaries. Looks like it didn’t take. And now it’s letters to congress that don’t get read. And rattling my cage as hard as possible. Is the pattern that voting Democratic in the election is going to lead to maintaining the status quo, which is the slow march to fashism to stop the full on sprint. Both paths lead to failure. The alternative is too show my lack of confidence in the party the only way given to me… voting third party, which i know means a trump victory. “But now Is not the right time!” Ok then when will it be the right time to demand representation? Does anyone think that any future republicans will not be just as bad? There will never be a time where voting for the non designated candidate will end the world. So it might as well be right here and right now.
Things need to change, and i will do my damndest to pay the piper now and not foist the cost unto the children of the future like my ancestors did to me.
It seems that there is no hope for Palestinians, and the future looks to contain yet more violence due to our demand for “stability”
I hope the appeal to stability tasted bitter as you spoke it, that there was some pang of regret as a sign of empathy.
I think Biden should hear Palestinian advocates out, absolutely. And I think that is happening, don’t you think? Consider where the administration was post-October 7th and where they are now. We couldn’t dream of Biden saying “indiscriminate bombing,” or that conditioning aid is now on the table or the public anti-Bibi remarks. Now they are calling for ceasfire and even voting it instead of vetoing it – and now it’s being vetoed by China and Russia. A far cry from the hugs on the tarmac before. Which is what we all wanted, right…? Trump wouldn’t move, and all I’m saying is that such a position is playing a very dangerous game.
I am all for you advocating on behalf of Palestinians. I am not for claiming one won’t vote, will vote 3rd party, etc. That is self-defeating. If we can agree on that then we are good.
Like I said I can’t in good faith agree with the notion of voting 3rd party or independent. This first is precipised on the false notion that Biden and Trump are similar when the one is holding back leaks in the dam (and admittedly some liquid gets through) while the other intends to blow it up. In doing so, many people will suffer more – Women, trans, Palestinians, Ukrainians, my kids. You talk of revolution and choose to offer up my kids as sacrifice? You choose to risk even worse outcomes for both Palestinians and Ukrainians who are desperately hoping Republicans don’t get in power and all pathways to “reaching” the White House fall flat? Your letters may or may not be read, but it’s clear that Biden cares about shifting the issue relative to weighing the political gambit of losing less-informed voters who currently side with Israel. Welcome to Democracy.
There is certainly more hope for Palestinians under Biden than Trump, and these two choices are the only end-result. Voting third-party does fundamentally nothing but ensure more blood on your hands instead of less.
Does he hear Palestinian advocates out? I thought that when he condemned isreal, that was a preamble to action. Looks like i was wrong. It’s apparent that his condemnation was for my ears and not isreal. Hoping to appease the cage rattling long enough to get past the election and doing nothing to even mitigate the reason for why he is disenfranchising his base. He said ‘hey let’s not be super obvious about committing the genocide guys! Here’s more guns! If you keep this up i might make you pinky swear to not bomb humanitarian aid workers!’
Do i advocate that you and your children pay for the cost of change? You are damn right i do, because this is the time when i can pay my damn share. It’s unfortunate to be the ones who have to clean the mess of generations of such heinous evil, but someone has got to do it and at some time. So its right here, right now. by forestalling it, you put an even higher cost on your children and their children and their children. You want someone to blame? Blame the past generations, but they are not going to do anything about it. Your children are already paying for global warming, oh look at that Biden have more subsidies to expand oil companies, against his campaign promises. Didn’t stop him from making speeches about the importance of fighting climate change as we fail our obligations.
This really has nothing to do with trump, he’s the boogie man the democrats hold over us as leverage the enact things they actually care for and it’s not passing progressive bills. The next presidential election it will just be desantos. Same shit different year. You advocate staying on course which has lead us to this point, and wile i am not there yet, voting third party seems to be the only way out of the tantrum spiral, at the cost of a truly terrible 4 years under trump.
Our UN Delegation is no longer vetoing ceasfires – This was a demand of your group here just weeks ago
Biden just yesterday has now moved to conditioning aid. This is also an action.
Of course it may not be as quickly as you’d like, but you are also not privy to all information, polling, and expertise… And it is, indeed, action.
Sorry but I am just not convinced of this mentality. Look I’ve been there. I’ve been sub-22-years-old and full of spitfire, viva-la-revolution, Che Guevara posters – but those times are long-gone. Your path only spells widespread death and destruction and setting the country back literally decades. Even more people will be subjugated and even more people will be genocided.
So yes, between more or less genocide I’ll take less. Every time. Since I don’t even buy that you’re of voting age let alone American I just don’t take much stock in what you’re saying here.
You seem to believe that progress and maintenance of the status-quo can easily remedy the damage done by a legitimate fascist regime as seen in the Trump party. Even if you got your dream candidate in after another 4 years of Trump, they wouldn’t be able to reverse the damage done – simply due to entropy, and quite possibly due to the fact that our Democratic system would be completely broken after another 4 years. I don’t see any evidence whatsoever that there is anyone who can rally the Trump cult base who has affixed themselves to his personality. DeSantis was supposed to be a more finely-groomed copy of Trump and he failed miserably. Republicans hitched their wagon to Trump and with him goes the party for better or worse.
By all means, try to influence Biden to further action. However the calculus is pretty simple:
… Then one understands the logical choice is voting for Biden and doing anything else from not voting, voting Republican, voting 3rd-party, writing-in – is utterly self-defeating and short-sighted to the aforementioned goals.
If you don’t understand these things, then yes, one might have built their ardent beliefs atop a house of cards.
Of course if Biden gets ahead of the polls, pulls aid too quickly, he risks jeopordizing the votes of nearly 7 million Jewish-American voters who still strongly support Israel. He risks losing independents who 1/3 side with Israel and 1/3 are undecided on whether Israel is going too far. So until you and I can convince THOSE people that what Israel is doing is wrong, then it’s natural for Biden’s team to be wary of losing those critical votes (who dwarf the Muslim population and dwarf the progressive population).
biden will push us further into fascism just as he has for the past 50 years. voting for him does not, in fact, ensure we don’t fall further into fascism.
i can believe the other guy is worse without believing its moral to help biden maintain power.
the spoiler effect is story telling.
What? No, you people just say anything without any actual basis or understanding of it sometimes.
yea. you are just telling stories, not doing science.
k
i wrote a pretty in depth treatment of this yesterday, but i don’t like to just spam copy pasta everywhere.
you might want to ask your self “what would a critical rationalist say about my postulate?”
You say entropy dictates that the perfect candidate will not achieve leftward momentum. And you offer me… entropy in its stead. Great. By that logic there is no winning out come, just a march into tyranny, in which i get to decide the speed at which we fall! How delightful. If that is the case, then we should just cut to the chase and get on with the Revolution. Its better done sooner rather than later wile we still have some freedoms and the highest chance at success! And if it fails, then we have the result of the current trajectory anyways.
Or we can wrestle control of the Democratic Party. Start shifting that window heading back to the left.
No I offer you stability. If one imagines the complexity of our collective system as a trillion-piece puzzle, what you suggest is to simply let the side who has openly broadcasted that they intend to smash it with a hammer. What I offer is at least some semblance of stability; sure perhaps some pieces break off here and there. At best, it sets us up to be able to build upon that puzzle down the road. In this crisis when faced with the dichotomy between stability and chaos, yes I’ll take stability anytime. And even if one argues the former isn’t perfectly stable, it only has to be better when choosing between two inevitable outcomes.
There’s no evidence of some “Revolution,” impending – only more suffering and oppression. You seem to admit that your interest is not in caring about the suffering of Palestinians or Ukrainians. Unlike you clearly, I have kids to think about. Palestinians would rather just get the guy who has publicly resisted Israel’s actions as opposed to wholeheartedly emrbaced. Meanwhile Ukrainians know the fate of their country is at stake.
… And here you are trying to wax poetry about some violent revolution…? Please…
I’m happy to wrestle with the Democratic party… But there’s a time and place. That time and place is most obviously during primaries – especially during non-incumbent years when we are teetering on full-blown fascism. Moreover if you feel that strongly about it then be the change you wish to see and run for office.
Otherwise please stop playing chicken with full-blown fascism and trying to drive wedges among Biden voters. The only people thanking you are Trump, Putin, and Bibi. At the same time, Ukrainians and Palestinians weep.
Here i am mocked as an armchair warrior, with one hand dismissing my point of view and with the other saying that i don’t actually care because i didn’t do anything warrior like.
Your stability is poison, its complacency with the status quo. The status quo that is currently systematically harming the innocent.
You also claim that i have some anterior motive and am using Palestinian children as a pawn for some yet undeclared actual motivation. Turns out, i support Palestine for the same reasons i support Ukraine, and i balk at the restrictions the US puts on the aid we give Ukraine, just like i resent Biden for not doing it for isreal.
And the gall of accusing me of anterior motives when you openly state the reason you want stability is that its not your problem because it’s not affecting you or yours! Such unethical and short sighted thinking will damn us all.
Damn you and DAMN your stability
Hey buddy, you threw the first punch in this thread; I was merely reciprocating the same tone I was dealt. If you don’t like it served back, then don’t dish it out. I will happily reflect the level of courtesy I am shown. Moving on.
What systemically-harms the innocent more is giving in to full-blown fascism. There is no group you’re trying to speak for – Palestinians, Ukrainians, or women who lost Roe thanks to Trump – who would legitimately do better under or prefer Trump over Biden. That’s pretty much the end of it and all that counts at this stage of the game.
In that respect stability is by no means poison; it’s a means to maintain what we’ve got lest we take further steps back – e.g., letting Trump stack the courts even more
It’s really insightful how you neglect to place blame on Republicans for blocking aid to Ukraine, while you name Biden specifically in holding aid for Israel. What a curious double-standard in levying blame.
Don’t play strawman games with me, please; they are childish. Quite the opposite: you’re trying to speak on behalf of Ukrainians and Palestinians when they overwhelmingly support Biden over Trump and their lives are on the line. If Trump gets in, MORE genocide will occur for both. And in that respect, I am the one who cares about these two groups because I know that LESS genocide is better than MORE genocide when faced with an ultimatum between two inevitable choices. Evidently, you do not.
I don’t want trump to win either. What i want is either the Democratic Party to put up a candidate that is more progressive, or correct Biden on his current actions. My options to achieve that is by design limited. I voted against him in the primaries. Looks like it didn’t take. And now it’s letters to congress that don’t get read. And rattling my cage as hard as possible. Is the pattern that voting Democratic in the election is going to lead to maintaining the status quo, which is the slow march to fashism to stop the full on sprint. Both paths lead to failure. The alternative is too show my lack of confidence in the party the only way given to me… voting third party, which i know means a trump victory. “But now Is not the right time!” Ok then when will it be the right time to demand representation? Does anyone think that any future republicans will not be just as bad? There will never be a time where voting for the non designated candidate will end the world. So it might as well be right here and right now.
Things need to change, and i will do my damndest to pay the piper now and not foist the cost unto the children of the future like my ancestors did to me.
It seems that there is no hope for Palestinians, and the future looks to contain yet more violence due to our demand for “stability”
I hope the appeal to stability tasted bitter as you spoke it, that there was some pang of regret as a sign of empathy.
I think Biden should hear Palestinian advocates out, absolutely. And I think that is happening, don’t you think? Consider where the administration was post-October 7th and where they are now. We couldn’t dream of Biden saying “indiscriminate bombing,” or that conditioning aid is now on the table or the public anti-Bibi remarks. Now they are calling for ceasfire and even voting it instead of vetoing it – and now it’s being vetoed by China and Russia. A far cry from the hugs on the tarmac before. Which is what we all wanted, right…? Trump wouldn’t move, and all I’m saying is that such a position is playing a very dangerous game.
I am all for you advocating on behalf of Palestinians. I am not for claiming one won’t vote, will vote 3rd party, etc. That is self-defeating. If we can agree on that then we are good.
Like I said I can’t in good faith agree with the notion of voting 3rd party or independent. This first is precipised on the false notion that Biden and Trump are similar when the one is holding back leaks in the dam (and admittedly some liquid gets through) while the other intends to blow it up. In doing so, many people will suffer more – Women, trans, Palestinians, Ukrainians, my kids. You talk of revolution and choose to offer up my kids as sacrifice? You choose to risk even worse outcomes for both Palestinians and Ukrainians who are desperately hoping Republicans don’t get in power and all pathways to “reaching” the White House fall flat? Your letters may or may not be read, but it’s clear that Biden cares about shifting the issue relative to weighing the political gambit of losing less-informed voters who currently side with Israel. Welcome to Democracy.
There is certainly more hope for Palestinians under Biden than Trump, and these two choices are the only end-result. Voting third-party does fundamentally nothing but ensure more blood on your hands instead of less.
Does he hear Palestinian advocates out? I thought that when he condemned isreal, that was a preamble to action. Looks like i was wrong. It’s apparent that his condemnation was for my ears and not isreal. Hoping to appease the cage rattling long enough to get past the election and doing nothing to even mitigate the reason for why he is disenfranchising his base. He said ‘hey let’s not be super obvious about committing the genocide guys! Here’s more guns! If you keep this up i might make you pinky swear to not bomb humanitarian aid workers!’
Do i advocate that you and your children pay for the cost of change? You are damn right i do, because this is the time when i can pay my damn share. It’s unfortunate to be the ones who have to clean the mess of generations of such heinous evil, but someone has got to do it and at some time. So its right here, right now. by forestalling it, you put an even higher cost on your children and their children and their children. You want someone to blame? Blame the past generations, but they are not going to do anything about it. Your children are already paying for global warming, oh look at that Biden have more subsidies to expand oil companies, against his campaign promises. Didn’t stop him from making speeches about the importance of fighting climate change as we fail our obligations.
This really has nothing to do with trump, he’s the boogie man the democrats hold over us as leverage the enact things they actually care for and it’s not passing progressive bills. The next presidential election it will just be desantos. Same shit different year. You advocate staying on course which has lead us to this point, and wile i am not there yet, voting third party seems to be the only way out of the tantrum spiral, at the cost of a truly terrible 4 years under trump.
But as I said, there has been action:
Our UN Delegation is no longer vetoing ceasfires – This was a demand of your group here just weeks ago
Biden just yesterday has now moved to conditioning aid. This is also an action.
Of course it may not be as quickly as you’d like, but you are also not privy to all information, polling, and expertise… And it is, indeed, action.
Sorry but I am just not convinced of this mentality. Look I’ve been there. I’ve been sub-22-years-old and full of spitfire, viva-la-revolution, Che Guevara posters – but those times are long-gone. Your path only spells widespread death and destruction and setting the country back literally decades. Even more people will be subjugated and even more people will be genocided.
So yes, between more or less genocide I’ll take less. Every time. Since I don’t even buy that you’re of voting age let alone American I just don’t take much stock in what you’re saying here.
This is all you have to say, we know you don’t like stability. That’s why you get dismissed so quickly.