Hey buddy, you threw the first punch in this thread; I was merely reciprocating the same tone I was dealt. If you don’t like it served back, then don’t dish it out. I will happily reflect the level of courtesy I am shown. Moving on.
What systemically-harms the innocent more is giving in to full-blown fascism. There is no group you’re trying to speak for – Palestinians, Ukrainians, or women who lost Roe thanks to Trump – who would legitimately do better under or prefer Trump over Biden. That’s pretty much the end of it and all that counts at this stage of the game.
In that respect stability is by no means poison; it’s a means to maintain what we’ve got lest we take further steps back – e.g., letting Trump stack the courts even more
It’s really insightful how you neglect to place blame on Republicans for blocking aid to Ukraine, while you name Biden specifically in holding aid for Israel. What a curious double-standard in levying blame.
you openly state the reason you want stability is that its not your problem because it’s not affecting you or yours! Such unethical and short sighted thinking will damn us all.
Don’t play strawman games with me, please; they are childish. Quite the opposite: you’re trying to speak on behalf of Ukrainians and Palestinians when they overwhelmingly support Biden over Trump and their lives are on the line. If Trump gets in, MORE genocide will occur for both. And in that respect, I am the one who cares about these two groups because I know that LESS genocide is better than MORE genocide when faced with an ultimatum between two inevitable choices. Evidently, you do not.
I don’t want trump to win either. What i want is either the Democratic Party to put up a candidate that is more progressive, or correct Biden on his current actions. My options to achieve that is by design limited. I voted against him in the primaries. Looks like it didn’t take. And now it’s letters to congress that don’t get read. And rattling my cage as hard as possible. Is the pattern that voting Democratic in the election is going to lead to maintaining the status quo, which is the slow march to fashism to stop the full on sprint. Both paths lead to failure. The alternative is too show my lack of confidence in the party the only way given to me… voting third party, which i know means a trump victory. “But now Is not the right time!” Ok then when will it be the right time to demand representation? Does anyone think that any future republicans will not be just as bad? There will never be a time where voting for the non designated candidate will end the world. So it might as well be right here and right now.
Things need to change, and i will do my damndest to pay the piper now and not foist the cost unto the children of the future like my ancestors did to me.
It seems that there is no hope for Palestinians, and the future looks to contain yet more violence due to our demand for “stability”
I hope the appeal to stability tasted bitter as you spoke it, that there was some pang of regret as a sign of empathy.
I think Biden should hear Palestinian advocates out, absolutely. And I think that is happening, don’t you think? Consider where the administration was post-October 7th and where they are now. We couldn’t dream of Biden saying “indiscriminate bombing,” or that conditioning aid is now on the table or the public anti-Bibi remarks. Now they are calling for ceasfire and even voting it instead of vetoing it – and now it’s being vetoed by China and Russia. A far cry from the hugs on the tarmac before. Which is what we all wanted, right…? Trump wouldn’t move, and all I’m saying is that such a position is playing a very dangerous game.
I am all for you advocating on behalf of Palestinians. I am not for claiming one won’t vote, will vote 3rd party, etc. That is self-defeating. If we can agree on that then we are good.
Like I said I can’t in good faith agree with the notion of voting 3rd party or independent. This first is precipised on the false notion that Biden and Trump are similar when the one is holding back leaks in the dam (and admittedly some liquid gets through) while the other intends to blow it up. In doing so, many people will suffer more – Women, trans, Palestinians, Ukrainians, my kids. You talk of revolution and choose to offer up my kids as sacrifice? You choose to risk even worse outcomes for both Palestinians and Ukrainians who are desperately hoping Republicans don’t get in power and all pathways to “reaching” the White House fall flat? Your letters may or may not be read, but it’s clear that Biden cares about shifting the issue relative to weighing the political gambit of losing less-informed voters who currently side with Israel. Welcome to Democracy.
There is certainly more hope for Palestinians under Biden than Trump, and these two choices are the only end-result. Voting third-party does fundamentally nothing but ensure more blood on your hands instead of less.
Does he hear Palestinian advocates out? I thought that when he condemned isreal, that was a preamble to action. Looks like i was wrong. It’s apparent that his condemnation was for my ears and not isreal. Hoping to appease the cage rattling long enough to get past the election and doing nothing to even mitigate the reason for why he is disenfranchising his base. He said ‘hey let’s not be super obvious about committing the genocide guys! Here’s more guns! If you keep this up i might make you pinky swear to not bomb humanitarian aid workers!’
Do i advocate that you and your children pay for the cost of change? You are damn right i do, because this is the time when i can pay my damn share. It’s unfortunate to be the ones who have to clean the mess of generations of such heinous evil, but someone has got to do it and at some time. So its right here, right now. by forestalling it, you put an even higher cost on your children and their children and their children. You want someone to blame? Blame the past generations, but they are not going to do anything about it. Your children are already paying for global warming, oh look at that Biden have more subsidies to expand oil companies, against his campaign promises. Didn’t stop him from making speeches about the importance of fighting climate change as we fail our obligations.
This really has nothing to do with trump, he’s the boogie man the democrats hold over us as leverage the enact things they actually care for and it’s not passing progressive bills. The next presidential election it will just be desantos. Same shit different year. You advocate staying on course which has lead us to this point, and wile i am not there yet, voting third party seems to be the only way out of the tantrum spiral, at the cost of a truly terrible 4 years under trump.
Our UN Delegation is no longer vetoing ceasfires – This was a demand of your group here just weeks ago
Biden just yesterday has now moved to conditioning aid. This is also an action.
Of course it may not be as quickly as you’d like, but you are also not privy to all information, polling, and expertise… And it is, indeed, action.
Sorry but I am just not convinced of this mentality. Look I’ve been there. I’ve been sub-22-years-old and full of spitfire, viva-la-revolution, Che Guevara posters – but those times are long-gone. Your path only spells widespread death and destruction and setting the country back literally decades. Even more people will be subjugated and even more people will be genocided.
So yes, between more or less genocide I’ll take less. Every time. Since I don’t even buy that you’re of voting age let alone American I just don’t take much stock in what you’re saying here.
So does your path lead to wide spread death and destruction, but with no action at all to make it subside. And you are right THE ACTIONS OF PEOPLE LIKE ME GOT BIDEN TO ‘TALK’ ABOUT DOING ACTIONS THAT MIGHT HELP. that means the cage rattling is working, so we best not stop until it is done. I am 35, i was unhappy at systemic injustice when i was younger but i am PISSED now. And for as long as i have been alive i have always heard those who say, now is not the time, win out over and over, and things have gotten worse and worse.
Seems to me the genocide is happening no matter who is president. So the claim that not voting Biden would be a worse genocide is laughable. What is trump going to do? GIVE ISREAL WEAPONS? IGNORE THE MURDERS OF HUMANITARIAN AID WORKERS?
Who knows? Maybe he would deploy the US military to show them how america does a genocide!
either way you do not offer a solution, only comfortable ambivalence. The insidious death of freedom. Maybe the realization that the Democratic Party must change to stay in power can survive 4 years of trump, for a better outcome over all. Or maybe not and there is no way out within the system. Or maybe with the party fracturing under his nose Biden will correct his course. He said he would and i I’m watching. so far i am unconvinced. And the threat of voting third party means nothing if there isn’t the will to actually do it. And the threat of holding isreal accountable means nothing with out the will to follow through
Whoa, let’s not get ahead of ourselves with a post hoc fallacy. Your cage rattling and threatening to vote for Trump (directly or indirectly) may not have done anything and it was just that the rest of the electorate starting recognizing what Israel is doing. Truly your time would be far better served not complaining about liberals or Biden and much better served holding these conversations with the undecided and pro-Israeli folk and convincing THEM. Thus, as you sway people into recognizing the atrocities of Israel, you see a reflection polling and henceforth a reflection in Biden’s actions in this thing called a Democracy where a broad coalition is necessary to win reelection.
Believe it or not there are degrees of genocide. There is less genocide with Biden and more genocide with Trump. Again, ask any Palestinian or Ukrainian whom they’d prefer in the White House to lessen the pain. To that point, if there is merely 1 less death under Biden than there is with Trump, then it is a logically and ethically-sound decision. As a result, I offered a solution: quantifiable, comparative logic. One is less than the other, guaranteed. I won’t entertain a blatantly false argument that Trump would be no worse than Biden. If you go there, this conversation is finished.
You are weighing lives of a future you cannot see or know. I can just as easily declare that forcing the Democratic Party to enact progressive legislation by risking their hold on power will have far reaching effects that will save more lives then those extra lost by a trump presidency. Remember that for this genocide to even happen the US had to enable it, and we did so 100% under Biden. I believe there was little else more trump could have done to make this worse. Biden prevented possible peace talks with his vetos. So i am not going to take your word on this genocide, Biden has done more than enough. No a trump presidency would be worse than another Biden’s for a million other reasons.
But the question is, in the long term, like a decade out, would righting the democratic course be better for all, even with the high cost of trump as president? Because when would they do it otherwise?
You can ask if i am just an anomaly, an outsider left, who prophesied either tyranny or revolution . Or am i the canary in the coal mine voicing a discontent that plagues the hearts of a large amount of people? I couldn’t tell you. We may have to wait and see.
But the more i think about it the more i am convinced. There must be change, one way or another. I just hope the frog isn’t boiled to death before it’s forced upon us. And my only outlet for that change is my vote. And i hope i get to vote for Biden
I can just as easily declare that forcing the Democratic Party to enact progressive legislation by risking their hold on power will have far reaching effects that will save more lives then those extra lost by a trump presidency.
I don’t find this comparable because because nobody can force the Democratic party to enact progressive legislation because this is contingent on these policies people popular among the majority of people, which they simply are not yet. In other words, you need to convince more of the electorate before you can even shift this. Whereas in my case, the future is set in stone: We will either have Trump, or we will have Biden. What’s more is Democrats literally CAN’T enact such progressive legislation because Republicans are obstructing any progress anyway, so I really have no clue what you’re saying here. Get Republicans out of the way, then Democrats would’ve implemented massive progressive policy long ago.
Remember that for this genocide to even happen the US had to enable it, and we did so 100% under Biden.
That’s not even remotely true, though. Consider Israel just starts pivoting into Russia or China’s sphere of influence and we lose any influence we have over Israel altogether. You think Israel can’t get weapons from elsewhere…? If anything, abandoning Israel too rapidly may have the entire opposite effect that you intend because now we have nothing to hold over them.
Let’s again not forget the dire consequences to Ukraine where genocide is largely being prevented by Democratic support to Ukraine (and nevertheless obstructed by Republicans) – and if Trump gets in, all aid is guaranteed to stop. So now you’ve got 2 genocides on your hands.
I hope when November comes we all vote for Biden lest we double-down on a downward spiral of entropy and doom generations to come as we take not just 1 step back, but 100 steps back and have to pick up the pieces of the puzzle yet again. For the sake of Ukrainians; for the sake of Palestinians; for the sake of my kids – everyone is holding their breath in hope of keeping some semblance of sanity in power lest we get the off-the-wall batshit crazy lunatics openly promoting a fascist playbook.
Hey buddy, you threw the first punch in this thread; I was merely reciprocating the same tone I was dealt. If you don’t like it served back, then don’t dish it out. I will happily reflect the level of courtesy I am shown. Moving on.
What systemically-harms the innocent more is giving in to full-blown fascism. There is no group you’re trying to speak for – Palestinians, Ukrainians, or women who lost Roe thanks to Trump – who would legitimately do better under or prefer Trump over Biden. That’s pretty much the end of it and all that counts at this stage of the game.
In that respect stability is by no means poison; it’s a means to maintain what we’ve got lest we take further steps back – e.g., letting Trump stack the courts even more
It’s really insightful how you neglect to place blame on Republicans for blocking aid to Ukraine, while you name Biden specifically in holding aid for Israel. What a curious double-standard in levying blame.
Don’t play strawman games with me, please; they are childish. Quite the opposite: you’re trying to speak on behalf of Ukrainians and Palestinians when they overwhelmingly support Biden over Trump and their lives are on the line. If Trump gets in, MORE genocide will occur for both. And in that respect, I am the one who cares about these two groups because I know that LESS genocide is better than MORE genocide when faced with an ultimatum between two inevitable choices. Evidently, you do not.
I don’t want trump to win either. What i want is either the Democratic Party to put up a candidate that is more progressive, or correct Biden on his current actions. My options to achieve that is by design limited. I voted against him in the primaries. Looks like it didn’t take. And now it’s letters to congress that don’t get read. And rattling my cage as hard as possible. Is the pattern that voting Democratic in the election is going to lead to maintaining the status quo, which is the slow march to fashism to stop the full on sprint. Both paths lead to failure. The alternative is too show my lack of confidence in the party the only way given to me… voting third party, which i know means a trump victory. “But now Is not the right time!” Ok then when will it be the right time to demand representation? Does anyone think that any future republicans will not be just as bad? There will never be a time where voting for the non designated candidate will end the world. So it might as well be right here and right now.
Things need to change, and i will do my damndest to pay the piper now and not foist the cost unto the children of the future like my ancestors did to me.
It seems that there is no hope for Palestinians, and the future looks to contain yet more violence due to our demand for “stability”
I hope the appeal to stability tasted bitter as you spoke it, that there was some pang of regret as a sign of empathy.
I think Biden should hear Palestinian advocates out, absolutely. And I think that is happening, don’t you think? Consider where the administration was post-October 7th and where they are now. We couldn’t dream of Biden saying “indiscriminate bombing,” or that conditioning aid is now on the table or the public anti-Bibi remarks. Now they are calling for ceasfire and even voting it instead of vetoing it – and now it’s being vetoed by China and Russia. A far cry from the hugs on the tarmac before. Which is what we all wanted, right…? Trump wouldn’t move, and all I’m saying is that such a position is playing a very dangerous game.
I am all for you advocating on behalf of Palestinians. I am not for claiming one won’t vote, will vote 3rd party, etc. That is self-defeating. If we can agree on that then we are good.
Like I said I can’t in good faith agree with the notion of voting 3rd party or independent. This first is precipised on the false notion that Biden and Trump are similar when the one is holding back leaks in the dam (and admittedly some liquid gets through) while the other intends to blow it up. In doing so, many people will suffer more – Women, trans, Palestinians, Ukrainians, my kids. You talk of revolution and choose to offer up my kids as sacrifice? You choose to risk even worse outcomes for both Palestinians and Ukrainians who are desperately hoping Republicans don’t get in power and all pathways to “reaching” the White House fall flat? Your letters may or may not be read, but it’s clear that Biden cares about shifting the issue relative to weighing the political gambit of losing less-informed voters who currently side with Israel. Welcome to Democracy.
There is certainly more hope for Palestinians under Biden than Trump, and these two choices are the only end-result. Voting third-party does fundamentally nothing but ensure more blood on your hands instead of less.
Does he hear Palestinian advocates out? I thought that when he condemned isreal, that was a preamble to action. Looks like i was wrong. It’s apparent that his condemnation was for my ears and not isreal. Hoping to appease the cage rattling long enough to get past the election and doing nothing to even mitigate the reason for why he is disenfranchising his base. He said ‘hey let’s not be super obvious about committing the genocide guys! Here’s more guns! If you keep this up i might make you pinky swear to not bomb humanitarian aid workers!’
Do i advocate that you and your children pay for the cost of change? You are damn right i do, because this is the time when i can pay my damn share. It’s unfortunate to be the ones who have to clean the mess of generations of such heinous evil, but someone has got to do it and at some time. So its right here, right now. by forestalling it, you put an even higher cost on your children and their children and their children. You want someone to blame? Blame the past generations, but they are not going to do anything about it. Your children are already paying for global warming, oh look at that Biden have more subsidies to expand oil companies, against his campaign promises. Didn’t stop him from making speeches about the importance of fighting climate change as we fail our obligations.
This really has nothing to do with trump, he’s the boogie man the democrats hold over us as leverage the enact things they actually care for and it’s not passing progressive bills. The next presidential election it will just be desantos. Same shit different year. You advocate staying on course which has lead us to this point, and wile i am not there yet, voting third party seems to be the only way out of the tantrum spiral, at the cost of a truly terrible 4 years under trump.
But as I said, there has been action:
Our UN Delegation is no longer vetoing ceasfires – This was a demand of your group here just weeks ago
Biden just yesterday has now moved to conditioning aid. This is also an action.
Of course it may not be as quickly as you’d like, but you are also not privy to all information, polling, and expertise… And it is, indeed, action.
Sorry but I am just not convinced of this mentality. Look I’ve been there. I’ve been sub-22-years-old and full of spitfire, viva-la-revolution, Che Guevara posters – but those times are long-gone. Your path only spells widespread death and destruction and setting the country back literally decades. Even more people will be subjugated and even more people will be genocided.
So yes, between more or less genocide I’ll take less. Every time. Since I don’t even buy that you’re of voting age let alone American I just don’t take much stock in what you’re saying here.
So does your path lead to wide spread death and destruction, but with no action at all to make it subside. And you are right THE ACTIONS OF PEOPLE LIKE ME GOT BIDEN TO ‘TALK’ ABOUT DOING ACTIONS THAT MIGHT HELP. that means the cage rattling is working, so we best not stop until it is done. I am 35, i was unhappy at systemic injustice when i was younger but i am PISSED now. And for as long as i have been alive i have always heard those who say, now is not the time, win out over and over, and things have gotten worse and worse.
Seems to me the genocide is happening no matter who is president. So the claim that not voting Biden would be a worse genocide is laughable. What is trump going to do? GIVE ISREAL WEAPONS? IGNORE THE MURDERS OF HUMANITARIAN AID WORKERS?
Who knows? Maybe he would deploy the US military to show them how america does a genocide!
either way you do not offer a solution, only comfortable ambivalence. The insidious death of freedom. Maybe the realization that the Democratic Party must change to stay in power can survive 4 years of trump, for a better outcome over all. Or maybe not and there is no way out within the system. Or maybe with the party fracturing under his nose Biden will correct his course. He said he would and i I’m watching. so far i am unconvinced. And the threat of voting third party means nothing if there isn’t the will to actually do it. And the threat of holding isreal accountable means nothing with out the will to follow through
Whoa, let’s not get ahead of ourselves with a post hoc fallacy. Your cage rattling and threatening to vote for Trump (directly or indirectly) may not have done anything and it was just that the rest of the electorate starting recognizing what Israel is doing. Truly your time would be far better served not complaining about liberals or Biden and much better served holding these conversations with the undecided and pro-Israeli folk and convincing THEM. Thus, as you sway people into recognizing the atrocities of Israel, you see a reflection polling and henceforth a reflection in Biden’s actions in this thing called a Democracy where a broad coalition is necessary to win reelection.
Believe it or not there are degrees of genocide. There is less genocide with Biden and more genocide with Trump. Again, ask any Palestinian or Ukrainian whom they’d prefer in the White House to lessen the pain. To that point, if there is merely 1 less death under Biden than there is with Trump, then it is a logically and ethically-sound decision. As a result, I offered a solution: quantifiable, comparative logic. One is less than the other, guaranteed. I won’t entertain a blatantly false argument that Trump would be no worse than Biden. If you go there, this conversation is finished.
You are weighing lives of a future you cannot see or know. I can just as easily declare that forcing the Democratic Party to enact progressive legislation by risking their hold on power will have far reaching effects that will save more lives then those extra lost by a trump presidency. Remember that for this genocide to even happen the US had to enable it, and we did so 100% under Biden. I believe there was little else more trump could have done to make this worse. Biden prevented possible peace talks with his vetos. So i am not going to take your word on this genocide, Biden has done more than enough. No a trump presidency would be worse than another Biden’s for a million other reasons.
But the question is, in the long term, like a decade out, would righting the democratic course be better for all, even with the high cost of trump as president? Because when would they do it otherwise?
You can ask if i am just an anomaly, an outsider left, who prophesied either tyranny or revolution . Or am i the canary in the coal mine voicing a discontent that plagues the hearts of a large amount of people? I couldn’t tell you. We may have to wait and see.
But the more i think about it the more i am convinced. There must be change, one way or another. I just hope the frog isn’t boiled to death before it’s forced upon us. And my only outlet for that change is my vote. And i hope i get to vote for Biden
I don’t find this comparable because because nobody can force the Democratic party to enact progressive legislation because this is contingent on these policies people popular among the majority of people, which they simply are not yet. In other words, you need to convince more of the electorate before you can even shift this. Whereas in my case, the future is set in stone: We will either have Trump, or we will have Biden. What’s more is Democrats literally CAN’T enact such progressive legislation because Republicans are obstructing any progress anyway, so I really have no clue what you’re saying here. Get Republicans out of the way, then Democrats would’ve implemented massive progressive policy long ago.
That’s not even remotely true, though. Consider Israel just starts pivoting into Russia or China’s sphere of influence and we lose any influence we have over Israel altogether. You think Israel can’t get weapons from elsewhere…? If anything, abandoning Israel too rapidly may have the entire opposite effect that you intend because now we have nothing to hold over them.
Let’s again not forget the dire consequences to Ukraine where genocide is largely being prevented by Democratic support to Ukraine (and nevertheless obstructed by Republicans) – and if Trump gets in, all aid is guaranteed to stop. So now you’ve got 2 genocides on your hands.
I hope when November comes we all vote for Biden lest we double-down on a downward spiral of entropy and doom generations to come as we take not just 1 step back, but 100 steps back and have to pick up the pieces of the puzzle yet again. For the sake of Ukrainians; for the sake of Palestinians; for the sake of my kids – everyone is holding their breath in hope of keeping some semblance of sanity in power lest we get the off-the-wall batshit crazy lunatics openly promoting a fascist playbook.