Installing OS, 10 years ago:
Windows: click a couple of buttons enter username and password
Linux: Terminal hacking, downloading shell scripts from github
Installing OS today:
Linux: click a couple of buttons, enter username and password
Windows: Terminal hacking, downloading shell scripts from github.
Link to video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qKRmYW1D0S0
Linux is honestly great, literally the only things holding it back is programs supporting it. I’m painfully tied to a select few windows programs for work and hobbies, Wine tries its best but programs need to start supporting linux before proper adoption can kick off.
And the reason those few programs don’t support Linux is because they don’t think we have enough users. So don’t hold up on using linux for that reason, it’s just a circle.
*Enough paying users
Yes, I’ve been trying hard to squeeze some linux into my life, currently trying to turn an old laptop into a little music machine for jamming with on me midi keyboard. I’ve run across quite a few issues just trying to get specific software working. I did cave at one point and try to use windows 10 but their installation media tool would fail every time I tried and the hardware is too old for windows 11 lol. It also triggered my gag reflex just thinking of all the ads it would feed me and all the bullshit I’d have to disable to make it respect my privacy. A number of different distros just worked flawlessly, though, and if all I needed to do was simple computer things and web I’d be laughing.
Some software is always going to have problems. Specially if the developer never had to work with linux.
In my case I think of it like my choice of Linux like how people may choose other lifestyle. It’s not about having superior experience in everything, but about general good experience and self satisfaction.
Just think of it this way, people in the 90s were happy with the softwares they had, so if some subset of software is not available to me it’s not end of the world. On the flip side many softwares are only available to me because of linux, my favorite is poppler-tools that allow me to merge PDFs and other pdf related tasks that in windows you’d need to pay Adobe for. If you compare and want things that you can’t have it’ll always make you unhappy. Everytime you search for a tool, search in linux websites or search source codes and you’ll be happy to ignore any tools that have a lot of licensing complications and windows only support. Not saying that’s the way to do it, but that’s how I do it.
This is where I’m trying to get to. Any new software I try to make sure is foss and linux where possible. It’s just a bit of a pain with music because there’s a lot of tools I’ve bought over the years and would like to continue using.
I have found that steam proton is a powerful wine machine. I’m not sure if it would help with any of the programs you are trying to run as it does have limits, but I’ve been shoving a ton of .exe files into steam and they usually work flawlessly.
I’ve been shoving a ton of .exe files into steam
I wasn’t aware that was an option. Do you have a link on how to do that?
Steam can’t tell if something is a “game” or not, so you do it the same way as playing a non-steam game through the launcher
https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-add-non-steam-games-to-your-steam-library
Thank you very much.
i like using bottles or lutris for that, you can change wine versions and parameters easier in case something doesn’t work.
Lutris with wine-ge has made some things work for me that didn’t work with plain wine. So definitely worth it to try.
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Lots more is holding it back, but I’d agree apps is a huge issue.
It’s still has significant issues with being end-user friendly. Needing to use command line for some things that should be a right click, not supporting right click, ambiguities galore when looking at a package repository, odd defaults in packages that one really wouldn’t expect to have to check (e.g. Selecting RDP connection in a Remote app, but it defaults the security to something other than RDP?)
As for apps, there’s problems like Libre Office devs refusing to support tables in the spreadsheet app, saying data management should be done with a database tool. While they’re not wrong, it takes a LOT more effort to setup a DB than to simply click “make table” in excel, which millions of people are familiar with. I create tables every day for run-of-the-mill stuff that simply doesn’t need a database. No one has time for that.
Or you plug in the most prolific wireless mouse on the planet, that’s been around since 2000 (Logitech), and it doesn’t work. Now pick any random piece of hardware and this is the stuff you run into. You go down the rabbit hole of searching for a solution
Or CAD (which falls in your app argument).
Linux is great for many things (things I run, UnRAID, TrueNAS, Proxmox, etc), it’s just not a great general purpose desktop for the average user, yet.
I’m sorry, your standard 2000 era Logitech mouse doesn’t work? I find that hard to believe. I’ve been using Linux as my only desktop Os and Logitech mice both since 2000, and if there is one thing that always has worked, its the mice.
I know right? I always bought Logitech specifically because it always ‘just worked’ everywhere for me.
Needing to use command line for some things that should be a right click, not supporting right click, ambiguities galore when looking at a package repository, odd defaults in packages that one really wouldn’t expect to have to check (e.g. Selecting RDP connection in a Remote app, but it defaults the security to something other than RDP?)
Sounds like you’re using a GNOME Desktop. You should give KDE Plasma a try instead. KDE Plasma basically gives you a Windows-esq experience without trying to install something like GNOME extensions.
For a regular user there’s not much point into going into the command-line anymore.
there’s problems like Libre Office devs …
Sure but there’s also alternatives. LibreOffice doesn’t try to emulate Microsoft Office and they never really have. They won’t even try to be compatible with MS Office but rather they do with OOXML which Microsoft created for other Office suites to be compatible with it but then just never supported it very well. Some alternatives do however. WPS Office is perhaps the most popular alternative for this that does try to be compatible with MS Office and emulate its feel and features but ONLYOFFICE is also a contender.
Needing to use command line for some things that should be a right click
Right click where? All major DE’s/WM’s implement stuff in their own way. The problem here is we don’t (and won’t) have a unified GUI that everyone uses, unlike the other two main OS’s. (Note: I don’t see this as a problem, more as a result of the FLOSS ecosystem being such a rich soil to build stuff on.)
I think Neal Stephenson’s In the Beginning was the Command Line has some valid points even today.
I mean… aren’t GNOME and KDE the two main GUI’s that you use?
there’s problems like Libre Office
A very simple problem that I absolutely hate in LibreOffice that I can’t find a solution for. When typing in a formula in a spreadsheet and then trying to autocomplete it, you cannot use ‘Tab’. If you want to do a vlookup and start typing “=vloo” and then hit ‘Tab’ it just changes to the next column. Working in Excel at work and then switching to Calc at home is jarring and terrible. That option can’t be changed as far as I know. It’s a complete dealbreaker for me between the two. Luckily I don’t need to do much in my personal life on spreadsheets anymore or need to use my home PC for work like I used to.
Yeah, there’s still some other little things, but it’s surprising just how good the out of the box experience is, especially considering how little support the project has had from hardware and software vendors.
I create tables every day for run-of-the-mill stuff that simply doesn’t need a database. No one has time for that.
It seems that your issue isn’t the lack of tables in sheets but no easy way to create a simple db.
If we want to break Microsoft’s monopoly than we can’t do that by reimplementing Microsoft’s monopolistic ecosystem. And that creates the opportunity to correct questionable and arbitrary Microsoft decisions.
People are used to MS Office now but so were they used to typewriters a few decades ago. And if we’re changing OSes we don’t have to stick to one office suite.
I understand the face value of it, but I really hate the argument of (basically) “Linux isnt going to take off until it just becomes Windows (or emulates it perfectly click for click)”
People always act like Linux is less buttery smooth two click accessible as a style choice, but cranking out a system like that and keeping it up costs money. If Linux dedicated to supporting every dongle on the planet themselves and all this other shiz, they’d have to monetize too.
So much less now needs the terminal. Personally, I don’t get why people don’t mind doing a search to find where windows hid some particular setting 3 submenus deep, but lose their fucking mind over the thought of doing a search to double check which command they need.
Linux doesn’t need to change, people’s priorities need to shift. This obsession with free services and not having to know shit about how shit works is how we got here, and shaking that is the only way out. For example, People will recognize that google is bad but if you point out you can get a domain and basic email hosting for $20/yr or whatever, its always “sucks teeth yeaaaaa but i dont have $20 for something like that and idk how stuff works” conveniently, you dont need to “yeaaaaa, but nooooooo”
Like, I hate cars, but I can’t imagine not knowing how to change a tire or my oil, etc basic stuff, but there are people who call AAA when they get a flat. Its nuts to me.
Linux wont take off until the friction for new users is low enough that the layman can resolve issues without resorting to techniques outside of their understanding and patience. Even as someone who uses linux, there are a ton of things that should have a GUI / just be a context menu entry. If you can get the same amount of work done with a button click rather than typing out a complicated command line string, you might as well use the GUI, right click menu, etc. and make it easier for the typical person. People these days can barely use tablets, and those already dumb things down to icons you tap. Unfortunately, making it accessible to the lowest common denominator is what makes things popular
But you can do nearly everything with the GUI in Linux for a while now. The level of stuff you would need to use the terminal for is the same level on Windows you would need the command-line for, or (SHUDDER) the registry.
In fact, I would argue that doing things in Linux via the GUI is easier than even on Windows. I’m speaking as a user of KDE Plasma. I personally dislike Gnome.
Personally, I don’t get why people don’t mind doing a search to find where windows hid some particular setting 3 submenus deep, but lose their fucking mind over the thought of doing a search to double check which command they need.
Because they like to believe that the former is how smart computer users do things.
In my defense as a AAA member, my super compact in-town car doesn’t have a spare tire, not even a doughnut.
Windows is only for games; macOS and Linux are for work. Once they catch up, it will be bye-bye Windows.
been playin games on linux for a long ass time now, with minimal issue.
with almost no issue in the past 3-4 years.
Its caught up.
Pretty much any game short of ones that have invasive kernal DRM run without much issue.
What’s your recommended Linux distro for a Windows gamer to try?
Definitely Nobara, it’s a distro optimized for making games actually work. On other distros I always had some games that wouldn’t run, but never on Nobara. Zero hassle.
Linux mint is my favorite os been running it many years now no issues with running games. Its a bulletproof OS esecially with timeshift snapshots SteamOS is specifically a gaming os developed by valve for the steam deck but you can installed it on any system . The key is proton which is a windows emulator comparability layer fine tuned by valves Dev team to get most games running on Linux.
far as I’ve heard, Mint can be iffy fhen it comes to games, mostly because they use an outdated kernel. I can also recommend something like Endeavor if the gamer in question has any knack for tech, or Nobara, which is made specifically for gaming by GloriousEgg, maintainer of ProtonGE
I hear you about the kernel. You can install newer ones or follow the HWE line (as I do) which gives you 6.5 last time I checked.
Thanks, havent heard of nobara before but it being made by the dude who maintains protob GE is interesting and I will check it out.
Nobara 39.
Its easy and quick to set up, easy to use, and has a lot of ancillary tools and stuff preinstalled to make getting into the gaming easier.
I’m not gonna say its the second coming of christ, or all sunshine and rainbows, so to be upfront and honest… Dualboot at first, if you can. Its, presumably, your first time using linux, so you will run into more roadblocks to start simply due to lack of knowledge and experience on how to navigate things, but you’ll get your baselines down quick and start getting into the windows-like usability and flow.
This is why I ask around! Haven’t heard that suggestion yet
An extra suggestion is to put the /home mountpoint on a separate volume ( if you’re comfortable doing so). This will make reinstalls easy, should you have need
Yeah I do this currently for my Windows installs. But Windows would freak out on OS updates and reinstalls.
I plan to redirect home on my next build
My /home partition is the same one I setup almost 12 years ago. It’s been through multiple versions of Ubuntu, multiple Ubuntu reinstalls, a switch over to EndeavourOS, a reinstall of EndeavourOS, cloned to multiple drives as each one failed or was upgraded to a larger sized drive. But it’s the same exact /home data.
Nobaras kinda a new distro, but its based on Fedora (the 39 indicates its based on Fedora 39) which is well established.
I’ve been using it, and the previous version of 38, and I’ve had a great experience with it. It also has a very active discord full of kind people willing to help.
Maybe for home users. Working at an MSP, I can’t see small to medium sized businesses making any changes here anytime soon, especially those that use specialized software built only for Windows.
In my experience, many business applications now run on the Web or are being upgraded to be. Where I work Windows pcs endure only for those who have to do technical drawing, most terminals are Ubuntu updated by ansible scripts and connected to an active directory domain running on Samba. The few PCs with Windows are slowly disappearing as hardware is upgraded ( medium-sized company with about sixty PCs ). There are also a couple of Mac’s used by in-house developers/IT.
I play games on Linux
Currently school holidays here and we have multiple machines running Steam on Linux all day playing a good variety of games. None of them are competitive online games that require a rootkit so we are just fortunate I guess that the household prefers co-op lan games, sims etc. I suspect these rootkits are about as effective as anti-doping in sports. Determined cheats still cheat so anyone installing malware to play those sorts of games is probably fooling themselves.
Games have largely caught up. Fifteen years ago, you couldn’t run anything other than shitty FOSS games or the occasional Platinum AppDB rated game like World of Warcraft on Linux, and even for the latter the install instructions were convoluted. With WoW, you had to manually copy the files from each CD, save them locally and then run the installer because otherwise the installer would shit the bed and fail halfway through Discs 2 or 3.
The final hurdle for gaming on Linux is anti-cheat and that’s going to be a mountain to overcome. Only two solutions (to my knowledge) currently have native Linux support and those are Easy Anti Cheat (EAC) and Valve Anti Cheat (VAC.) You’re not gonna get anything requiring Ring 0 access (like Vanguard) running on Linux anytime soon.
You’re not gonna get anything requiring Ring 0 access (like Vanguard) running on Linux anytime soon.
Good. Kernel mode anticheat is fucking malware. Anticheat for a game should never have the same power over the system as a driver, which needs those privileges to communicate with hardware.
Games is mostly (say 90+95%) there. Windows won’t go bye bye though, MS ensured customers by making government’s and companies sign contracts that will be a bitch to get out of. Expect windows to be around for a long time.
Microsoft has shit developers, but they have great marketing people and lawyers, so many lawyers…
Don’t need to compete when users don’t have a choice.
It breeds complacency.
macOS should also go bye bye especially with the shitty hardware that require you to sign your soul and next born over to apple. Fuck their tactics.
Last week I installed Windows 11 on a new laptop that came with FreeDOS installed. It was a really dreadful experience, I never thought it was this bad.
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The windows 11 installer couldn’t find any hhd partitions or hard drive, while FreeDOS could. After googling for a while I had to download an Intel Rapid Something driver from the manufacturer’s website and load it up when installing windows 11.
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After installing Windows it required an internet connection to proceed but I assume the wi-fi drivers were not installed. USB tethering didn’t seem to be working either so I had to continue the setup elsewhere, where I had physical access to the router.
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I had to skip a lot of things throughout the installer, which kinda shocked me. Office 365 and even games, before I even booted the actual OS.
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Fully updating Windows took 2 hours. Fresh ISO, gigabit Ethernet connection, nvme HDD. Damn.
Pretty miserable experience and completely impossible to an unexperienced user.
Even after finally booting the OS you still have to remove mcafee and cortana with revo uninstaller.
Actually, after a grueling 7 hours installation journey, i removed those peasky things by tossing an LUKS LVM filesystem over it and using that drive as a secondary drive on my desktop. Fuxk windows
For point 1 you need to toggle a setting in UEFI that switches between RAID (Rapid Storage) and AHCI. It sounds like you are in RAID mode and in this mode Linux will be unable to probe the disk. If you toggle the setting then the current Windows install will break but both Windows (clean install) and Linux will be able to see the disk. Point 3, yeah I heard that in reddit too. Enshittification in full swing. Points 2 & 4 no comment lol
My last windows 11 installation took over 7 hours divided over 3 or 4 days, I dont even remember, I’m trying to forget. It was an absolute horror show and indont get why anyone accepts this. If I want to pay and get fucked I’ll find an escort, but I have Linux AND a wife.
A Linux user with a relationship?? Impossible! (/s)
There are dozens of us!
The windows 11 installer couldn’t find any hhd partitions or hard drive, while FreeDOS could. After googling for a while I had to download an Intel Rapid Something driver from the manufacturer’s website and load it up when installing windows 11.
SATA drivers flashbacks
I recently got back into the homelab hobby. Fucking around with installer drivers has been eye opening. I had to fight to get drives recognized and the same with NICs. Funny, Proxmox worked without any issues (virt-io was leveraged, but the internet made that obvious before I even downloaded the ISO for it).
Idk man, I regularly reinstall Windows (cca. every 6 months) to get rid of bloatware and random stuff I installed and don’t need anymore. It’s a pretty smooth experience, though it would be a major pain if your circumstances ever occured.
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Oh how the turn tables
It’s a topsy-turvy world.
I remember 2014 being pretty easy to install Linux. Windows 7 and 10 were also pretty easy then.
I remember breaking my Ubuntu install a bunch of times when trying to install nvidia drivers and flash player to watch YouTube.
I was breaking redhat and fedora trying to install wifi drivers for pcmcia wifi cards. So much modprobe. That’s why I switched to Ubuntu.
Haha, you’re so silly! The meme says 10 years ago and not— …
My god, it really has been ten years since 2014, hasn’t it?
2004 was twenty years ago :|
2004 is when we got Ubuntu, and if I recall correctly Mandrake was also rather easy to install.
Tbh I would rather use Debian, I use Debian today and if I knew about Debian back then I would be using it
If Back to the Future was made today, Marty would have traveled back to 1994.
Wow that… Stings a little
I think you mean “Great Scot!”
It was “Great Scott!” but the DeLorean smashed through the second “t” in the past. 🌲🌲
Install MacOS X: get a bopping song from Röyksopp
🎶you know we’re happy up here🎵
I tried to help my brother, who is a computer scientist to install windows 11 on his new am5 motherboard build. Am5 was really new and even with our combined knowledge it took all day of fucking with it to find a way to get windows 11 to recognize the m2 ssd. We had to load it with an older driver from the manufactures website and we had to do some kind of shenanigans to get the installer to actually recognize the files. Iirc this was a gigabyte motherboard, a reputable brand.
This was when am5 was newer so it’s kind of understandable I guess, but I also installed arch for troubleshooting purposes that day and it only took 30 minutes 🤷
Usually got problems with Windows not recognizing drives during install only on Gigabyte mobos. Turning off all forms of Fast Boot in BIOS fixed it for me, but it was an older motherboard (one for AMD FX series, IIRC).
And when I switched mobos from Intel to AMD, it just booted (Arch then). Couldn’t believe it, just went.
I didn’t use a terminal to install Linux 20 years ago…
25 years sounds about right
people here seem to think 20 years ago was the 90s…
They differ a lot. I don’t understand why Microsoft does not want to improve on this situation. At minimum take all questions at once, or collect answers from existing installation. Maybe have some profiles of answers like wipe disk and privacy mode.
Microsoft’s most important customers are businesses, who generally don’t deal with this (they have corporate images). Home users also generally don’t deal with this given they buy a computer that has already been configured.
Linux-based systems have always needed to be better because almost no one buys a computer with $DISTRO already installed and configured.
I don’t understand why Microsoft does not want to improve on this situation.
Windows is the side hustle, They sell server space now.
Right, so lets shutdown Windows as it does not bring in enough money.
I don’t think that would be a good idea, to let it rot away. It is a business that brings in money after all, and it keeps the users using Microsoft office(Office 365) and all their products. They need to keep it alive.
They can half ass it, stuff it with ads, rake in the income and not lose enough users to worry. They have a monopoly and can just keep milking users.
It works for a while but they will lose market share over time. The home users are mostly not locked in to anything. It is just them that might use their pc at home for work(they should use their work laptop for that). Nowadays most things are webbased. Console/Steamdeck/Android/Chromebooks exists. Microsoft even made Visual Studio Code for any OS so coders can use any OS. The need for Windows is shrinking as people development alternative software for other platforms. It just take time.
It works for a while but they will lose market share over time.
The average user thinks their having a spell cast on them if they hear Linux. People are too afraid to learn how to use Windows let alone switch.
I think many is afraid. It is unknown OS. No one likes change. Many thinks IT is hard. especially elder people. However:
- There is to few places to even buy a computer with Linux on it.
- No ads on TV or similar, nowhere to test, not a single .exe file to run and test it out
- Works differently - need to relearn.
A kid does not have any problem with the above. This is why Steam Deck is selling. It is just fun to test something new with your friends and see what all the buttons do. Seen as cool. Any guess where this is going when they get adult?
The people able to figure out Linux will move over, but I don’t think a typical Windows user that goes on Facebook and uses Excel is going to understand or care enough to leave. They are use to being abused.
privacy mode
Keep dreaming. Only Apple has privacy mode they call Lockdown mode.
Love Linux, but had to wipe it from my system due to frustrating incompatibilities with my NVidia setup. I will pick Mint back up when I get another PC though, with the goal being to keep a Windows setup only for gaming and nothing else.
That sucks, I guess I have been fortunate that my I haven’t had any major issues with either of my Nvidia cards using the proprietary drivers. Are you using the 4000 series cards? I haven’t tried them as my 3070 is still doing fine and has been since release.
It may be due in part to age. Partly why I’m replacing my laptop is that gaming hardware stayed pretty accessible for three years, but this year has leapt forward significantly and my laptop isn’t keeping up as well as it used to.
It’ll be a perfect PC for non-gaming though. :)
Just a heads up, if you use an AMD GPU, the drivers are built into the Linux kernel itself by AMD engineers (and others helping/supporting/contributing to the kernel like themselves). So you don’t even have drivers to install, unless you’re one of the 10 people that want to use AMD GPUs for Machine Learning. Then you’d do a quick install of AMD PRO (those are proprietary so that’s why they aren’t built into the kernel).
Dualbooting with nvidia atm. Using other drivers than the nvdia one in linux. Most things work except a few games. Highly recommend it
I waited to install Linux until I put in another drive to dual-boot, and proceeded to never go back to my windows install.
I was surprised at how easy it was to get things running, and any difficulties I had were mostly the result of me assuming things were more complicated than they are and not looking for simple solutions.Word.
I ran a dual boot setup for about six weeks, but the performance issues and bugs just got too annoying over time.
I’m planning to get a new PC later this year for gaming. Just gonna wipe windows off this one and make it my “all other stuff” system when that time comes. :)
Related, I predict Windows on ARM will be a massive failure, again.
Windows is Windows because a critical mass of their market is terrified of being vaguely incompatible with any software they use today. Wine will never give them enough confidence just like ARM emulation of x86 will never give them confidence.
Extra bizarre, from what I’ve seen the Windows devices vendors are treating the ARM variants as a premium model and charging more for them, despite having no real compelling story for the customers. You can either have an x86 offering that’s from all appearances just as overall capable and absolutely able to run your software today, on an ARM offering that is more expensive and maybe a bit less compatible, with maybe better battery life (either sincerely or at least a belief).
Mac is able to force the issue because the hardware and software all wanted to make ARM happen and forced it, but with Windows on ARM, only Qualcomm really cares, Microsoft and all the device vendors would prefer to hedge their bets, which in this case tie goes to the incumbent.
I believe this time Windows on ARM will make an Intel Arc-like launch. It won’t be a failure but it won’t capture a massive audience either. QC will keep developing chips and some Windows users will be able to daily drive ARM.
2012’s debian (I think it was 6, which was my first one) was pretty straight forward to install even for a newbie
Yeah this is more like what Linux was like to install in the 90s or very early 2000s.
Installers haven’t really changed in the past 10 years
Laughs in Gentoo
Compiles in Gentoo
Also horses in Gentoo
To be entirely unbiased here, this covers user friendly distros that pretty much blow windows away for “default experience”.
Windows has adware and scareware - more so it has config-cluster-fuckification (I believe this is the academic term for it?). This is where windows lost me - when it started bundling basic config options together to force you to relinquish your privacy. Now it’s “edit the registry or gtfo”…
I don’t think Microsoft realizes how easily done mass deployment of Linux distros and foss software could be :| especially if done at scale, and having some mid-sized corporations backing it.
