I saw an article about them attacking Lebanon now. So, where will it stop? Have the Israeli government ever spoken about this?
As longs as inertia prevails in the world stage, sadly, I don’t see a near term future where a light might shine in the end of the tunnel for Palestine’s future.
But if it serves a consolation, simmering tensions are purging therein the Netanyahu’s regime. His close allies aren’t aligned with the PM’s vision of the plausibility of defeat of Hamas (as if the Israel’s anger agains Palestine had anything to do with Hamas; it’s was a fallacious pretext).
Basically the situation in Israel/Palestine is that Hamas has pretty much total iron first control of Gaza, and Israel has a very right wing government. The Israelis have vowed to destroy Hamas entirely, but Hamas is deeply entrenched in every aspect of life in Gaza so what Israel is doing is actually pretty much the only way to rid the region of Hamas, but it comes at an extreme cost and involves a lot of war crimes.
It probably is the only way to get rid of Hamas, but its going to cause so much resentment that peace in Gaza will be completely unattainable within your j or mine. But in short yes, they’re going to kill anyone with even loose ties to Hamas and if you’re a civilian standing too close, oh well.
Hamas has pretty much total iron first control of Gaza
Don’t you mean Israel has pretty much total iron first control of Gaza? Hamas does not control the borders, the monetary policy, electricity, water (via a racist system of permits being habitually denied), airspace, sea, population registry, international trade, ID cards, or travel to and from Gaza. Israel does. Israel even sells the drilling rights for natural gas off the coast of Gaza.
Gaza has a border with Egypt as well. If Egypt were so inclined, they could open it and allow all sorts of trade and humanitarian relief. They could even set up a refugee camp to protect civilians from harm. They would rather not open the border because they don’t want Hamas to get a toe hold in Egypt.
Gaza has a border with Egypt as well.
Not anymore. The IDF controls the strip of land between Gaza and Egypt and has secured it against any further aid crossing the border.
Ok next item was “monetary policy”.
That’s the problem isn’t it? Hamas was actually running a government. For reference about 13 percent of people in the US work for the government. Now think about their friends, contractors, and families. How high do you think that percentage is? How high does it become after you kill half that 13 percent while they’re just trying to distribute aid and run hospitals?
They absolutely know what they mean they say they’re going to destroy Hamas, but the West pictures Hamas solely as a bunch of fighters, separate from the hospitals, sewage departments, police, and etc.
Hamas has pretty much total iron first control of Gaza
I was under the impression the IDF had a bit of influence there, what with all the tanks and bombers and soldiers scouring every inch of the war-blasted landscape.
I saw an article about them attacking Lebanon now.
Hezbollah, not Lebanon. Please don’t legitimize terrorist groups by considering them to be the government of the country they operate in. Lebanon has elections, please support democracy and it’s not consider Hezbollah as Lebanon’s government, even if those psychopaths have control over a significant portion of the country.
That being said, Nasrallah is probably under significant pressure to do something to help Hamas in some way. Last week he put out some threats against Israel. Israel put out counter threats. In all likelihood that’s where things will stay, neither side wants a war with the other.
The media is always saying a war is imminent. Remember when they were claiming China was going to invade Taiwan any minute? There’s probably some outlets that’re still are saying that sometimes. It gets clicks, views, and ratings.
Who knows they might be right this time (a stopped clock is right twice a day) but it seems doubtful.
So, where will it stop?
In terms of Gaza, Hamas is still holding Israeli hostages. It’s not going to stop as long as Hamas is holding Israelis hostage.
Hamas is likely making a lot of money from the suffering of Palestinians. So they don’t have much incentive to release the hostage and put an end to the conflict.
So it will continue on as the IDF goes house to house trying to find the people that Hamas took on October 7.
Eventually either the IDF will find all of the hostages or Hamas will release them. Then it will end.
Eventually either the IDF will find all of the hostages or Hamas will release them. Then it will end.
Lol, good one.
Lebanon (at least Hezbollah in Lebanon) began attacking Israel on Oct 8 in solidarity with Hamas. Things have gradually been escalating since then.
Facts have no standing in this area of discussion.
Hopefully, there is no way in hell it can continue like it did for the last decades.
And the thing about attacking Lebanon was just some rumors basically. Hezbolla is however constantly shooting rockets into residential areas and targeting hospitals. So i can see Israel continuing a cleanup there after the Hamas problem is solved.
Why are you downvoted? You’re right
Cause lemmy is apparently filled with antisemitic people. At least i don’t have to worry about karma BS.
Neo-Leftism is a term i could use for this.
I mean the creators of this platform are full blown Marxists, it’s no surprise that a large percentage of their userbase share the same hateful viewpoints
I mean Marx was a jew… The new left is people thinking they fight imperialism by hating on Israel, wich by definition is antisemitism.
Im beginning to regret having left reddit, they at least banned people for obvious antisemitism.
hating on Israel, wich by definition is antisemitism.
It’s official, they’re trolling. No one is this stupid… Right?
Sadly they seem serious
I think they are the same person.
Both hasbara accounts none the less.
For decades, Israel and the US (and European countries) have pursued a policy to destabilize middle eastern regimes.
People don’t realize this, but there was a wave of Arab nationalism that was killed by sponsoring Islamic extremists. Had that not happened, the middle east would be much more secular today than it is.
Israel attacking and destabilizing Lebanon and Syria and the US maintaining a dictator in Egypt are part of this strategy.
In turn, this leads to hate towards the West and Israel by the Muslims affected.
It won’t stop as long as American voters care much more about gas prices than about human rights. American politicians are willing to sponsor genocide to have some control on oil prices in order to win elections.
For decades, Israel and the US (and European countries) have pursued a policy to destabilize middle eastern regimes.
You are aware that china and Russia do that even more. Supporting Terrorism, supporting Iran and their nuclear shitshow blaming everything on the west especially Israel… You get the point.
People don’t realize this, but there was a wave of Arab nationalism that was killed by sponsoring Islamic extremists. Had that not happened, the middle east would be much more secular today than it is.
Most of the terrorists, especially ISIS have not been supported by outside of middle east, but where fueled from within middle east because governments do government stuff. Hamas and Hezbolla are similar cases, especially because the antisemitism unites most of the Islamic countries against Israel
Israel attacking and destabilizing Lebanon and Syria and the US maintaining a dictator in Egypt are part of this strategy.
Hezbolla (Lebanon and Egypt) is constantly shooting rockets into residential areas and targeting hospitals. So Israel has a very very solid reason to strike them. And the Egyptian dictatorship is a dictatorship but one that at least on surface fights those terrorists, wich would probably gain majority in a democratic election… Like what happened in Gaza…
In turn, this leads to hate towards the West and Israel by the Muslims affected.
No the antisemitism in nowadays Islam was caused by Nazi Germanys propaganda into middle east. The anti west thing by the Soviet union. But yes its not helping to reduce the hate, but at this point there is no way to reduce this unless we would abolish Israel wich is absolutely not an option.
It won’t stop as long as American voters care much more about gas prices than about human rights. American politicians are willing to sponsor genocide to have some control on oil prices in order to win elections.
I haven’t seen USA sponsoring hamas or hezbolla and it will not stop ever, especially because even if you leave Israel to the terrorist, when they are done there you get to be the next target. There is no other way than to fight such groups.
It won’t stop as long as American voters care much more about gas prices than about human rights. American politicians are willing to sponsor genocide to have some control on oil prices in order to win elections.
Who should we vote for to stop what’s going on? Please, enlighten me.
Sanders
But more seriously, vote everywhere for the most progressive people possible and vote strategically to get the most progressive person realistically electable when needed.
Down-voted with deep regrets. A vote for Sanders, no matter how good he would be, is a vote to let Netanyahu “finish the job” in 2024.
The path to your goal is to vote progressives down ballot and really support them until they rise to congressional level where they can actually create change. Until then, vote for the candidate who has the best chance of winning and gets you closest to you goals. Beware, the trolls want to create division so their guy can walk right in.Did you skip the “but more seriously” part and everything that came after right after I said “Sanders”? 🤔 Because I’m saying exactly what you’re saying.
Also, you can vote for Sanders so he keeps his position in the Senate so it’s actually not false that people need to vote for him.
I refuse to vote for Sanders…
Because I don’t live in his state so I’m not allowed to.
He’s done great work convincing progressives that the best way to change the Democratic party is from the inside, and I hope it continues.
I don’t think you really have a lot of choices to be honest.
You’d first need to get new candidates to win a primary and then a general and the required majorities are lacking almost everywhere.
A more fruitful approach is to actually change public opinion.
It’s a long uphill battle, but it’s happening.
I don’t think you really have a lot of choices to be honest.
Therein lies the problem. We don’t have a lot of choices. Voting for new, progressive candidates feels great and it’s nice to pat ourselves on the back and think we’re making a difference, but the fact of the matter is that voting for a candidate who has no realistic path to winning is only even a realistic option when the candidate with the ‘D’ next to their name is all but guaranteed to win. And yeah, I’d really love to be able to make a statement by splitting the leftist vote between the democratic candidate and a progressive one; I’d really love to tell the democrats to get fucked and vote for a progressive third-party for every seat, but right now is far from the time for that, especially in states where those races are actually close. The last thing we need is to pack the House and Senate with republicans who win something like 40/30/30 because we couldn’t unify behind someone who actually had a chance of winning.
Not to mention, we only get to vote in 1 state’s elections, and often times there aren’t even any progressive down-ballot candidates on the ballot to vote for.
I know a lot of people don’t like the American First Past the Post system, but to be honest, even in a proportional system like here in the Netherlands, you end up with very similar dynamics.
Truth is, progressives are always a small minority, in every country. Because they are always ahead of the curve on change.
In the US, this means that you only get a handful of progressives in the most progressive districts and never a really progressive national government.
In the Netherlands, this means progressives are always represented, but need to compromise to form a government. And often, they even get skipped and the centrist and conservative parties form a coalition.
Truth be told, Biden is as progressive as you could hope to get in the USA.
And, while I do think it is important to criticize him - and even threaten to not vote for him - to enable him to move more towards the left, it is also important to vote for him.
Progressives always win, not through getting majorities, but because they have the right ideas and eventually the other parties catch up to them.
For recent examples, gay marriage in the USA or marihuana legalization are now law in the USA.
I am 100% confident that American policy on Israel will also shift thanks to progressive voices. And it will not require a progressive majority.
I am 100% confident that American policy on Israel will also shift thanks to progressive voices. And it will not require a progressive majority.
I’d love to be proven wrong, but I don’t believe this will happen while Biden is president. Not to say I’m not going to vote for him - I’m not that stupid, but he’s made it pretty clear that he will stand with Israel more or less no matter what they do.
I do worry that he’s upsetting a lot of people to the point that they won’t vote for him, though, and that’s scary to me. He comes across as very weak when he capitulates to Israel this hard. He’s repeatedly said, “This is the line, don’t cross it!”, then when they do, he moves the line. If he loses to Trump in November, I’ll have a hard time not blaming Israel and his policies in dealing with them for that loss.
You are not giving Arabs any credit for the current situation? Thats almost racist 😁
America cares less today about oil as it is self reliant.
Americans still care about the price of oil, which is set in a global market and where Saudi-Arabia and Russia have more influence than the USA.
Obviously, the extremist Arabs that overthrew their own leaders are also to blame. Where did I deny that?
Extremist arabs didn’t overthrew their leaders, the population overthrew their dictators and was hiding the fact of torturing and killing political oponents or even normal people critisizing the regimes
Israel bombs Lebanon because Hezbollah keeps committing terrorist attacks and launching missles from there, the same goes for Syria. Also, in what universe is helping keeping countries stable like Egypt destabilizing? You people are mind numbingly ignorant. The middle east was never secular or stable, it was always religiously extremist, violent, and oppressive. There was a slight blip in secularism during the British and French mandates and slightly afterwards, but as time moved on, the region just went back to the way it used to. What we view as islamic extremism is just normal islam. Secular muslims aren’t a thing. They’re considered extremely liberal and westernized in islamic countries.
Israel wants to take over far more. They have litarally said they wanted to take over Turkey.
This stops like how the Nazis were stopped from expanding their Lebensraum. By asking them very nicely to stop and explaining they are mean.
The sarcasm is strong in you today. :)
The Israeli government has no idea what it is doing. Literally. The current government was a barely held together coalition prior to October 7. In the direct aftermath, they formed a unity government and war cabinet that collapsed last week.
Their prime minister has been indicated on corruption and bribertmy charges, which are currently on hold for obvious reasons. By most indications his primary motivation in this matter is to stay in power himself, with Israel’s national interests being secondary.
Individual members of IDF leadership have called Israel’s stated objectives “unachievable”.
Israel simultaneously wants to live in peace as a liberal Jewish state without commiting any form of ethnic clensing; and achieve its manifest destiny of establishing a Jewish theocracy across Judea and Samaria.
These are deep questions that get to the core of what Israel is and stands for. Questions that are to be answered by the Israeli constitution in the 50s. That never happened because Israel was never able to agree on a constitution [0].
Right now, Israel is just reacting, without any long term strategic vision. Various factions are trying to use that chaos to advance their own long term vision.
[0] Which led to the big judicial reform constitutional crisis that was a giant political crisis before October.
Israel simultaneously wants to live in peace as a liberal Jewish state without committing any form of ethnic cleansing; and achieve its manifest destiny of establishing a Jewish theocracy across Judea and Samaria.
A country at war with itself, much like the US.
Israel knows what it is doing. They have been very consistent about it for more than 80 years.
They will kill every Palestinian an Palestine, and they will try to kill eveyone in the vicinity who is not jewish. It a country of religious fanatics who use 3000 year old fairy tales to justify their actions.
If that were the case then they would have written that into their constitution 70 years ago. And they wouldn’t have assasinated their own prime minister 30 years ago.
Heck, the current minisyet of national security Ben-Gvir was rejecting from mandatory constriction by the IDF, and convicted in an Israeli court of supporting (Jewish) terrorism after being indigted by an Israeli prosecutor.
These are not things that happen in a country that is unified in its goals.
“mowing the lawn” as the Israelis call it.
Btw from what I’ve witnessed, many Israelis dislike Orthodox Jews as much as they dislike Muslims and Christians. Israel is a weird place.
In 1948 when Israel was formed as a nation state, the borders were set at that time. It would not have been a problem but terrorists (think Hamas and other groups like that) kept going across the border into Israel and killing and committing other crimes. Israel fought back.
As Israel fought back more cross border raids happened.
Israel puts up the iron dome ( understandable because of the missiles being launched at them).
Israel pushed their borders to try to get some breathing room. I disagree with their belief the area should be settled. Make it a DMZ ? Fine, that’s a legitimate usage. But to settle it? Now they are (in my opinion) expanding their territory and not creating a buffer zone.
But I’m not sure what the answer is.
Leave Palestine alone and allow hamas to keep doing cross border raids?
Keep responding to the individual cross border raids and attack hamas? That doesn’t solve the problem because hamas will keep coming.
Put other nations militaries on the border? Hamas will just call that an act of aggression by those countries and attack those militaries.
Hamas has a belief that all Jews everywhere should be killed. So where would the Jews even go?
Just expand their nation ( Israel) to the ocean? Ok then where do the Palestinians go?
I’m not sure what the answer is.
The state of Palestine was split to create two countries Palestine and Israel. Because historically that was the Jewish homeland. But how do we solve this current problem. I have no idea
Israel was formed from a combination of terrorist groups like Lehi and Irgun.
Israel is like the power ranger form of terrorism.
Israel is the terrorist. Israel was established by murdering and displacing the people who lived there.
Genocide and mass murder are the core values of the Israeli state.
Yeah it would have nothing to do with the fact that after world war 2 no one would take in the Jews. So a Jewish state was created. Nah nothing to do with that at all.
Did they have to murder and displace millions of Palestinians?
and thus you justified the 14 words.
“We must secure the existence of our people and a future for Jewish children”
we must slaughter Palestinians, because only then can we be safe!
Colonial league of nations declare Israeli state after later to become Israeli terrorists have terrorized Palestinians and the British troops to force them out. Palestinians are not asked on the matter if they want to give those terrorists a fascist ethnostate on their land.
Fascist ethnostate gets declared, starts ethically cleansing hundreds of thousands of people.
Some neighbouring countries try to prevent that.
75 years of propaganda and brainwashing and people like you spin it like the Israelis are the victims, even while they are currently committing an even worse genocide and ethnic cleansing than they used to do back then and in between.
Which neighbouring nations approved of those borders and does Israel respect those borders today?
The borders were technically a theory… an idea. It wasn’t even officially established until Israel gained military might, if I remember correctly.
What kind of bubble do you live in? If you take 2 million people, close their airspace, ports and land borders they’re not going to be happy.
On top of that Israel does the following:
- imprison kids for throwing rocks at soldiers wearing armor
- take people’s houses, most recently in Sheikh Jarrah
- Ban farmers from using water, promise water from other sources and don’t deliver.
- Close West Bank Airport
- Settle lands in he West Bank.
- Make Palestinians go to Military court with 99% conviction rate instead of a civil court.
- Administrative detetention without giving any reason. (Because classified)
- Withold evidence from courts that’s used to convict them. (Because classified)
- Settlements are both within the 1948 borders and even within the Olso accord Green line.
- Beat people up and throw tear gas that go play at Al-Aqsa mosque.
- Don’t convict any settlers of violence.
- Fondle women at check points when they open the trunk of their cars.
- Limit imports to single item per pallet.
- Limit work visas.
- Limit family reunification as a way to immigrate across the border.
- Random checkpoints that destroy tourism such as in Jericho.
- Open policy of disproportial response to every reaction the Palestinians have.
- Raid refugee camps and destroy their roads like in Jenin.
- Kill journalists that cover the story such as Shireen Abu Akleh
- Don’t even convict the murdered because he was a soldier.
- Oh and kill/wound 5% of Gaza, half of which are children, for good measure.
When people are suffocating because someone has their foot on their throat they react. Nobody should be surprised that Oct 7 happened. Especially after Israel was warned many times that they would do something if they continue raiding one of the holiest sites in Islam.
You need to read more about this subject from an unbiased source.
For example?
What kind of bubble do you live in? If you take 2 million people, close their airspace, ports and land borders they’re not going to be happy.
On top of that Israel does the following:
- imprison kids for throwing rocks at soldiers wearing armor
- take people’s houses, most recently in Sheikh Jarrah
- Ban farmers from using water, promise water from other sources and don’t deliver.
- Close West Bank Airport
- Settle lands in he West Bank.
- Make Palestinians go to Military court with 99% conviction rate instead of a civil court.
- Administrative detetention without giving any reason. (Because classified)
- Withold evidence from courts that’s used to convict them. (Because classified)
- Settlements are both within the 1948 borders and even within the Olso accord Green line.
- Beat people up and throw tear gas that go play at Al-Aqsa mosque.
- Don’t convict any settlers of violence.
- Fondle women at check points when they open the trunk of their cars.
- Limit imports to single item per pallet.
- Limit work visas.
- Limit family reunification as a way to immigrate across the border.
- Random checkpoints that destroy tourism such as in Jericho.
- Open policy of disproportial response to every reaction the Palestinians have.
- Raid refugee camps and destroy their roads like in Jenin.
- Kill journalists that cover the story such as Shireen Abu Akleh
- Don’t even convict the murdered because he was a soldier.
- Oh and kill/wound 5% of Gaza, half of which are children, for good measure.
When people are suffocating because someone has their foot on their throat they react. Nobody should be surprised that Oct 7 happened. Especially after Israel was warned many times that they would do something if they continue raiding one of the holiest sites in Islam.
Literally the first thing you do on NoStupidQuestions is attack the person asking the question.
And then go on a rant that doesn’t actually address the question. I honestly don’t even know if you read the same OP that I did here…
Cmon, that’s not acceptable behavior here.
on top of being a total dick, he didn’t even answer the question.
Sorry, I meant to reply to a comment
Well, yeah. That’s the idea. Why would they go this far and not go all the way? They know damn good and well that as long as they keep things just barely on the end where genocide isn’t stated as a goal, and they maintain a position of alliance with most of the west, nobody is going to actually stop them.
Hell, without starting a world war, I’m not even sure they can be stopped.
On the world stage? There aren’t enough nations with power that actually care about Palestine. Yeah, leaders will make noise and pretend to care, but Palestine offers nothing to the major powers worth intervening for.
Sounds sociopathic, right? That’s the leaders of most of the world. People drawn to power rarely have the ethical rigor to wield said power. Those that do, still have to deal with oligopoly, hidden fascists, and the reality that no nation can really take action without upsetting the whole damn thing.
Palestine: declares war, explicitly calls for genocide, asks muslims to murder Jews everywhere, calls other countries to invade Israel, invades Israeli towns, commits terrorist attacks against civilians, massacres entire families, rapes women, launches tens of thousands of missiles, broke ceasefire agreements they asked for (twice), takes hundreds of hostages, openly celebrate the attacks on the streets, parade around the corpses of the naked victims, shows zero remorse, refuses every peace deal, vows to do it all again.
Israel: fights back
Idiots: tHaT’s LiTerAlLy GeNoCiDe
Actually brain dead
Go screw
Seethe lol
Actually that’s not true, the muslim Arab countries went to great lengths to intervene and support the Palestinians. From starting coalition wars that sought to destroy Israel to organized boycotts and sanctions by the muslim world to placing diplomatic pressure on the West to put out peace proposals to giving them billions in aid annually. They tried everything, but every time, the Palestinian leadership has insulted them, backstabbed them, lied to them, or squandered their efforts away. For example:
Jordan - Took part in coalition wars, took them in as refugees… but Palestinians used this as an opportunity to try to overthrow the Kingdom by assassinating officials and committing terrorist attacks. It was so bad that these events became known as black September.
Egypt - Took part in the coalition wars, tried to diplomatically support Palestine, and took them in as refugees… but the Palestinians also took this as an opportunity to try and overthrow the Egyptian government multiple times. It got so bad that Egypt had to join Israel in their blockade.
Kuwait - provided military, economic, and political support as well as took them in as refugees… but the Palestinians openly celebrated and supported Iraq’s invasion in the 90s under Saddam Hussein. It got so bad that Kuwait kicked out all 350,000 Palestinian nationals from it’s territory.
Syria - Took part in the coalition wars, provided diplomatic support, and took them as refugees… but the Palestinians ended up trying to overthrow the government during the Syrian civil war. It got so bad that Bashar Al Assad pretty much severed relations with them.
Saudi Arabia - I don’t even need to say anything here, they literally released a 3 part documentary (that I highly recommend) that goes through everything they did to support the Palestinians and what they did in return. Here’s part 1:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=edKZbu5OM1c
I could keep going, but I think you get the idea. There’s a reason why all these countries are starting to recognize Israel now. They tried everything in their power to act on the behalf and in the best interest of Palestine, but in the end their efforts just blew back in their faces
There’s no reason for them to stop. No one standing against them. If I was them, I would do the same.
Completely occupying Palestinian land has been the plan for over half a century.
With this terrorist attack, Israel is trying to wrap it up.
They could have completed their colonization under the guise of righteous vengeance, but:
That now has very little chance of succeeding now because of three important factors 1) it’s taking much too long 2)they’re indisputably committing witnessed, recorded and shared war crimes and 3) the goodwill they’ve accumulated for 70 years as a stabilizing ally is wearing off pretty quickly.
There’s more support for Palestine now than there has been with these same Israeli attacks occurring for the past 70 years.
Palestine is officially recognized by 145 countries or so at this point.
So, likely scenario is there’s going to be a ceasefire eventually and a similar paltry amount of land will be given to a nascent “official” Palestinian authority under the practical authority of Israel, which is not ideal, but it might actually result in the beginning of a two-state solution that’s been suggested since Israel became a country.
In practical terms, Palestine getting a “country”, not much will change between Israel and Palestine because the establishment of Palestine doesn’t affect the fundamental religious conflict between the two.
That’s where it looks like it’s headed.
I hope I’m wrong and something better happens.
Palestine being a wholly recognized nation with borders would make it so much easier for the world community to use its leverage on both Israel and Palestine for any of their shenanigans. As it stands now, it’s still arguably “an internal conflict.”
That’s a lot different from “attacking a sovereign nation.”
No it wouldn’t because the problem isn’t with borders, it’s with government. The Palestinian government has squandered every opportunity and has done everything it could to stop progress. Its Arab allies have been dedicated for decades to do everything in their power to act on the behalf and in the best interest of Palestine from going to wars to destroy Israel to islamic world organized boycotts and sanctions against Israel to diplomatic pressure on the west to do something to providing their own peace proposals to giving them arms to taking them in as refugees to giving them billions in humanitarian aid annually and the list goes on and on… But every time, their efforts blew up in their faces. There’s a reason why these countries are starting to recognize Israel.
Yeah but that will not happen because the “sovereign nations” government is Hamas and they did attack Israel…
Hamas has the majority in Gaza and would get the majority in the other parts of the autonomous region Palestine in a election (wich is why the current government of this region is not doing elections)
Exactly.
You’re talking out of your ass. Israel has no plans to take over Gaza. They already had it and even had settlements there going back all the way before Israel gained its independence. But they voluntarily existed in 2005 in hopes of fostering peace with the Gazans… Instead the first thing they did was elect Hamas and commit terrorist attacks.
So if you rewind another 50 years or so, you’ll understand the statement I made a little better.
The israeli conquest of Palestinian land started quite a ways before 2005.
I literally don’t care, you made a false statement. Israel unilaterally left Gaza. They don’t have settlements there anymore and they don’t plan to. Making up stuff doesn’t make you sound smart.
You might want to care, since your false claims are entirely based on a woefully inaccurate and incomplete historical understanding of the conflict.
Nothing that I have said is false. In fact I can source every single one of my claims. I know a propaganda fueled drone such as yourself can’t do the same, which is why you came back with this drivel instead of providing substance
You claimed:
“I literally don’t care”.
Sure doesn’t seem to jive with your histrionics.
Also, the history of Israel and Palestine is incredibly well documented. Going back 75 years.
You could literally search on any engine and find it instantly. You don’t even need a particular source to figure out how old this conflict is.
Which is probably where you should start.
If you actually took into account the context, it’s very obvious that I said I don’t care about your claim that conflict is old and goes back many years. Nobody is disputing that. My point is that you made specific claim, which is that Israel wants to annex the Palestinian territories entirely as their ultimate goal, however, that is blatantly false because Israel literally gave up their settlements in Gaza voluntarily in 2005 and unilaterally existed. If their ultimate goal is complete conquest, why would they have done such a move? This event contradicts your thesis and disproves your claim.
Don’t bother, that must be one of those tantrum fueled hasbara accounts.
Thanks, it’s fine.
I have a lot of free time and it’s fun to respond to mindless bad faith with diametric sincerity.
They always get boggled.
That refers to an agreement by the Israeli military to stop officially invading and colonizing Palestine after successfully colonizing over 90% of their territory.
Unofficially colonization continued and Israel did nothing to stop civilian Israeli settlers from continuing the colonization.
Israel also continued to bomb civilian establishments and execute civilians up until the present day!
Source: dude, trust me
How dare you state the truth in our antisemitic arguments about how evil Israel is…
Unironically defending genocide by using “antisemitism” as an excuse, implying by your own admission that all Jews are genocidal
Who do you think you’re fooling, bud? Fucking Nazi.
Unironicaly thinking that there is a genocide even after the ICJ said there is none… Blocked you nazi.
Yes, they usually do it slowly to avoid suspicion but when the situation is convenient they go ahead and take a big bite out of Palestine.
That’s how they have been operating, even before the establishment of Israel:
Before the 1948 Arab-Israeli War broke out, the Carmeli Brigade’s 21 Battalion commander had repeatedly damaged the Al-Kabri aqueduct that furnished Acre with water, and when Arab repairs managed to restore water supply, then resorted to pouring flasks of typhoid and dysentery bacteria into the aqueduct, as part of a biological warfare programme. At some time in late April or early May 1948, - Jewish forces had cut the town’s electricity supply responsible for pumping water - a typhoid epidemic broke out. Israeli officials later credited the facility with which they conquered the town in part to the effects of the demoralization induced by the epidemic.[54]
Israel’s Carmeli forces attacked on May 16 and, after an ultimatum was delivered that, unless the inhabitants surrendered, ‘we will destroy you to the last man and utterly,’[55] the town notables signed an instrument of surrender on the night between 17–18 May 1948. 60 bodies were found and about three-quarters of the Arab population of the city (13,510 of 17,395) were displaced.[56]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre,_Israel#1948_Palestine_War
It is evident that that is their modus operandi because now Gaza’s water system is destroyed, and I suspect they will take Gaza just like they took Akka.
Israel taking over Palestine has been the plan since the beginning, as the founding fathers of Israel themselves announced:
Zionist leaders, in particular David Ben-Gurion, viewed the acceptance of the [United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine] as a tactical step and a stepping stone to future territorial expansion over all of Palestine.
Between 1947 and 1949, at least 750,000 Palestinians from a 1.9 million population were made refugees beyond the borders of the state. Zionist forces had taken more than 78 percent of historic Palestine, ethnically cleansed and destroyed about 530 villages and cities, and killed about 15,000 Palestinians in a series of mass atrocities, including more than 70 massacres.
All the theatrics about Israel’s right to defend itself etc. are just cover for the long history of horrible crimes and human rights violations Israel has perpetrated (and continues to perpetrate). There is a reason that people are mad at Israel, and it has nothing to do with being Jewish.
So yea, Israel is going to continue overtaking Palestine, unless they start being held to international law like everyone else. Germany and USA impede on that process, but hopefully the rule of law will triumph because
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
Hmm… For a more realistic answer not necessarily. This isn’t the first time they invaded Lebanon. I’m admittedly not aware of why they left the first time, but from what I know at least in the short term they’re mostly content with the territory they currently control. Of course “currently control” including Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan heights; ethnically cleansing those was always the plan. Also when Egypt inevitably collapses as a state I could see them trying to go for Sinai.
Israel doesn’t want territorial gains but to get rid of terrorists that shoot their civilians. They invaded Egypt as well and are now on relatively good terms with their government.
And there is no so called ethnic cleansing.
Sources: aljazeera a known hamas sympathizing or straight up part of them media outlet, and a website called visualizing Palestinie, without any actual sources.
Btw
The official land given to Israel by UK is the blue part in the middle…
We’re going to remember people like you when this is all over.
Your entire account is what i would call a shit post.
Remember what, that he’s right?
Literally the same exact thing happened to Jewish villages, towns, and populations in cities in Palestine.
That’s what the1920 Nebi Musa riots against Jews in Jerusalem or the 1921 Jaffa riots or the Jaffa deportations by the Ottomans in 1917 or the 1929 riots and massacres (including the Hebron Massacre which destroyed the ancient community there). Not to mention the nearly 1 million Jews who were exiled from the islamic world to Israel for no other than being Jewish.
No, they weren’t the same thing. Zionist Land Purchases were unlike anything prior, leading to the forced expulsion of over hundreds thousand Palestinians under the British Mandate. This, along with the Zionist leadership being very open about the Concept of Transfer since the 1880s, stocked Palestinian fears of being violently forced out of their homes by these new arrivals. There is a lot of context that gets ignored during these events, and it’s not easy to summarize. I’ll include a few paragraphs but if you want more context I suggest you read the whole chapter.
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
The fear over control of the Temple Mount and a failure by leadership on both sides to quell the fears (and instead, incite them) sparked the terrible pogroms of Jewish Settlements.
In 1928, this meant simultaneously calling for the defence of Jerusalem and discouraging direct action on the ground. But the Palestinian masses found this kind of co-opted nationalism impossible. They lived near the holy places and saw Jews praying there in unprecedented numbers, which they saw as part of a larger scheme to ‘de-Islamize’ Palestine. A minor incident concerning prayer arrangements near the Wailing Wall, the western wall of the Haram, sparked violence that soon swept through Palestine as a whole in 1929. In all, 300 Jews and a similar number of Palestinians were killed.
The spillover of anger from Jerusalem into the countryside and other towns was not a co-ordinated plan by the leadership. Rather, it started with uprooted Palestinians who had lost their agricultural base for various reasons, including the capitalization of crops and the Jewish purchase of land. These former peasants lived on the urban margins, from where they participated in what to them was their first ever political, and violent, action. Their dismal conditions were not the fault of Zionism, but it was easy to connect Zionist activity in Jerusalem with the purchase of land or with an aggressive segregationist policy in the labour market.
The British army was slow to respond to the unrest. The 1920s had been quiet, apart from limited outbursts of violence in Jerusalem in 1920 and Jaffa in 1921. These had seemed inevitable in a mixed community, and quite normal in the vast British Empire. But the events of 1929 exceeded the level of containable violence, and the British government decided in 1930 to appoint a commission of inquiry, the Shaw Commission. After touring the country, its members pointed out the deterioration in the peasants’ living conditions and reported the growing frustration among a large number of Palestinians with British pro-Zionist policy.
- Ilan Pappe - A History of Modern Palestine Pg 138
1929 Riots: Forward and 972Mag
The 1936-39 revolt began as a protest against the British Mandate and Zionist Expansion, and escalated in violence as the protests were met with lethal force.
One of the problems was the leadership vacuum in rural Palestine, and the failure of most attempts to fill it. One of these attempts was that of Izz al-Din al-Qassam, a Syrian preacher who settled in Haifa in the mid 1920s. Many history books assert that Izz al-Din al-Qassam ignited the 1936 revolt by fusing Islamic dogmas with national ideology. But his recipe for revolution was welcomed only among a particular segment of the population. This was the poor of the cities and the unfortunate inhabitants of harat al-tanc, the shanty neighbourhoods that surrounded towns such as Haifa. In 1933, Izz al-Din al-Qassam initiated a guerrilla war in the north, recruiting fighters from around Haifa and leading them to the surrounding hills, attacking any Jews or British soldiers they encountered on the way. In 1935, al-Din al-Qassam was killed by the British army, but this was enough to make him a martyr and provide an example of a new kind of resistance.
While the expansion of Zionist settlement gave the nationalist notables a chance to reach a wider audience, there was still no genuine solidarity with the peasants, apart from rare displays of unity and firmness of purpose. Such a moment took place in March 1933 in Jaffa, where leaders of all the political factions joined in a united call for a concrete campaign of sustained pressure on the British government to change its policy. Five hundred representatives of the Palestinian elite, in a rare show of resolve, declared their intention of boycotting British and Zionist commodities, and for the first time ever rejected the legitimacy of the Mandate in the land of Palestine.
In May 1936, the Arab Higher Committee declared a general strike and organized nationwide demonstrations, the principal one held in Jerusalem, where about 2,000 demonstrators gathered inside the walls of the Old City. The demonstrations became more violent three weeks later, when British police opened fire on demonstrators in Jaffa.
At first the magnitude and nature of the protests impressed the British. They appointed a commission of inquiry, headed by Lord Peel, who visited Palestine in 1937 before making his recommendations. His commission recommended the annexation of most of Palestine to Transjordan, and urged the maintenance of a direct British presence in vital strategic positions such as Haifa and the newly built airport in Lydda, as well as in the Negev. A small portion of the land was designated as a future Jewish state. This plan was rejected, not of course by Prince Abdullah in Transjordan; but in a way it was endorsed by Ben-Gurion, who had the foresight to understand that you take what you are given when the balance of power is not yet in your favour. For Ben-Gurion, the proposal was a basis for negotiations, not a final map, hence his willingness to be content with such a small portion of Palestine.
- Ilan Pappe - A History of Modern Palestine Pg 156-159
1936-1939 Revolt: JVL, Britannica, MEE
The Jewish exodus from the Muslim world was also not the same
Keeponstalin’s comments are always top notch, and I just want to add a bit more info about the exerpt that reads:
A minor incident concerning prayer arrangements near the Wailing Wall, the western wall of the Haram, sparked violence that soon swept through Palestine as a whole in 1929.
The “minor incident” went as follows:
On 15 August 1929, Tisha B’Av, the Revisionist youth leader Jeremiah Halpern and three hundred Revisionist youths from the Battalion of the Defenders of the Language and Betar marched to the Western Wall proclaiming “The Wall is ours”. The protesters raised the Zionist flag and sang the Hatikvah.[13] The demonstration took place in the Muslim Maghribi district in front of the house of the Mufti.
Two days later, in raised tensions caused by a 2000-strong Muslim counter-demonstration after Friday prayers the day before, a Jewish youth, Avraham Mizrahi, was killed and an Arab youth picked at random was stabbed in retaliation.[14] Subsequently, the violence escalated into the 1929 Palestine riots.
There is a lot of context that gets ignored during these events, and it’s not easy to summarize. I’ll include a few paragraphs but if you want more context I suggest you read the whole chapter.
It’s interesting you say this because, ironically, you conveniently leave out a lot of context and ignore many events. I’ll include a few paragraphs as well, but there’s just so many of these events that I’m afraid Lemmy’s character limit won’t allow to give you anywhere near a comprehensive list. This very, very brief list will have to do for now:
West Bank:
The Hebron massacre was the killing of sixty-seven or sixty-nine Jews on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of Mandatory Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by rumors that Jews were planning to seize control of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.[1] The event also left scores seriously wounded or maimed. Jewish homes were pillaged and synagogues were ransacked. Some of the 435 Jews in Hebron who survived were hidden by local Arab families,[2] although the extent of this phenomenon is debated.[3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
Jordan:
According to an Israeli complaint, Jordan undertook systematic destruction of the Jewish Quarter including many synagogues.[34] Under Jordanian rule of East Jerusalem, all Israelis (irrespective of their religion) were forbidden from entering the Old City and other holy sites.[35] Between 40 000 and 50 000 tombstones from ancient Mount of Olives Jewish Cemetery were desecrated.[36] In the Old City of Jerusalem, the Jewish Quarter was destroyed after the end of fighting. The Tiferet Yisrael Synagogue was destroyed first, which was followed by the destruction of famous Hurva Synagogue built in 1701, first time destroyed by its Arab creditors in 1721 and rebuilt in 1864.[37][38][39]
Abdullah el Tell, a commander of the Arab Legion, remarked: For the first time in 1,000 years not a single Jew remains in the Jewish Quarter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Jerusalem
Bahrain:
Bahrain’s tiny Jewish community, mostly the Jewish descendants of immigrants who entered the country in the early 20th century from Iraq, numbered between 600 and 1500 in 1948. In the wake of 29 November 1947 U.N. Partition vote, demonstrations against the vote in the Arab world were called for 2–5 December. The first two days of demonstrations in Bahrain saw rock-throwing against Jews, but on 5 December, mobs in the capital of Manama looted Jewish homes and shops, destroyed the synagogue, beat any Jews they could find, and murdered one elderly woman.[218]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#Bahrain
Syria:
After the vote in favour of the partition of Palestine, the government abetted and organised Aleppo’s Arab inhabitants to attack the city’s Jewish population.[3][4][5] The exact number of those killed remains unknown, but estimates are put at around 75, with several hundred wounded.[1][5][6] Ten synagogues, five schools, an orphanage and a youth club, along with several Jewish shops and 150 houses were set ablaze and destroyed.[7] Damaged property was estimated to be valued at US$2.5m.[8][9] During the pogrom the Aleppo Codex, an important medieval manuscript of the Torah, was lost and feared destroyed. The book reappeared (with 40% of pages missing) in Israel in 1958.[10]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Aleppo
The subsequent Syrian governments placed severe restrictions on the Jewish community, including barring emigration.[196] In 1948, the government banned the sale of Jewish property and in 1953 all Jewish bank accounts were frozen. The Syrian secret police closely monitored the Jewish community. Over the following years, many Jews managed to escape, and the work of supporters, particularly Judy Feld Carr,[197] in smuggling Jews out of Syria, and bringing their plight to the attention of the world, raised awareness of their situation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#Syria
Yemen:
The Aden riots of December 2–4, 1947 targeted the Jewish community in the British Colony of Aden. The riots broke out from a planned three-day Arab general strike in protest of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II), which created a partition plan for Palestine.[1] The riots resulted in the deaths of 82 Jews,[1][2] 33 Arabs, 4 Muslim Indians, and one Somali,[1] as well as wide-scale devastation of the local Jewish community of Aden.[2][3] The Aden Protectorate Levies, a military force of local Arab-Muslim recruits dispatched by the British governor Reginald Champion to quell the riots, were responsible for much of the killing.[1][4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Aden#Background
Egypt:
Until the late 1930s, the Jews, both indigenous and new immigrants, like other minorities tended to apply for foreign citizenship in order to benefit from a foreign protection.[170] The Egyptian government made it very difficult for non-Muslim foreigners to become naturalized. The poorer Jews, most of them indigenous and Oriental Jews, were left stateless, although they were legally eligible for Egyptian nationality.[171] The drive to Egyptianize public life and the economy harmed the minorities, but the Jews had more strikes against them than the others. In the agitation against the Jews of the late thirties and the forties, the Jew was seen as an enemy[168]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#Egypt
The 1948 bombings in Cairo, which targeted Jewish areas, took place during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, between June and September, and killed 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200. Riots claimed many more lives.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Cairo_bombings
Five Egyptian Jews and one Muslim policeman were killed in Alexandria, hundreds were injured in both Alexandria and Cairo, and an Ashkenazi synagogue was burned down.[1] The Greek Orthodox patriarchate, Catholic churches and a Coptic school were also damaged in the riot.[1] The police reacted quickly but were unable to prevent much of the violence.[1] However further demonstrations planned for the following day were largely suppressed.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Egypt
Libya:
The 1945 Anti-Jewish riots in Tripolitania was the most violent rioting against Jews in North Africa in modern times. From November 5 to November 7, 1945, more than 140 Jews were killed and many more injured in a pogrom in British-military-controlled Tripolitania. 38 Jews were killed in Tripoli from where the riots spread. 40 were killed in Amrus, 34 in Zanzur, 7 in Tajura, 13 in Zawia and 3 in Qusabat.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Tripolitania
The 1948 Anti-Jewish riots in Tripolitania were riots between the antisemitic rioters and Jewish communities of Tripoli and its surroundings in June 1948, during the British Military Administration in Libya. The events resulted in 13–14 Jews and 4-30 Arabs dead and destruction of 280 Jewish homes. The events occurred during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Tripolitania
Tunisia:
On April 11, 2002, a natural gas truck fitted with explosives drove past security barriers at the ancient El Ghriba synagogue on the Tunisian island of Djerba.[1] The truck detonated at the front of the synagogue, killing 14 German tourists, three Tunisians, and two French nationals.[2] More than 30 others were wounded.[3][4][5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghriba_synagogue_bombing
Iraq:
Under Iraqi nationalists, Nazi propaganda began to infiltrate the country, as Nazi Germany was anxious to expand its influence in the Arab world. Dr. Fritz Grobba, who resided in Iraq since 1932, began to vigorously and systematically disseminate hateful propaganda against Jews. Among other things, Arabic translation of Mein Kampf was published and Radio Berlin had begun broadcasting in Arabic language. Anti-Jewish policies had been implemented since 1934, and the confidence of Jews was further shaken by the growing crisis in Palestine in 1936. Between 1936 and 1939 ten Jews were murdered and on eight occasions bombs were thrown on Jewish locations.[115]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#Iraq
Farhud (also Farhood; Arabic: الفرهود) was the pogrom or the “violent dispossession” that was carried out against the Jewish population of Baghdad, Iraq, on 1–2 June 1941, immediately following the British victory in the Anglo-Iraqi War. The riots occurred in a power vacuum that followed the collapse of the pro-Nazi government of Rashid Ali while the city was in a state of instability.[2][3][4] The violence came immediately after the rapid defeat of Rashid Ali by British forces, whose earlier coup had generated a short period of national euphoria, and was fueled by allegations that Iraqi Jews had aided the British.[5] More than 180 Jews were killed[6] and 1,000 injured, although some non-Jewish rioters were also killed in the attempt to quell the violence.[7] Looting of Jewish property took place and 900 Jewish homes were destroyed.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud
Baghdad Radio invited citizens to Liberation Square on January 27 to “come and enjoy the feast”,[3] being brought in on buses.[2] 500,000 people reportedly attended the hangings, and danced and celebrated before the corpses of the convicted spies.[1]
Nine of the fourteen hanged were from the Iraqi Jewish community, three from the Muslim community and two from Christian communities.[1] Three other members of the Iraqi Jewish community that were arrested at the same time were executed seven months later, on 26 August 1969.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Baghdad_hangings
The Jewish exodus from the Muslim world was also not the same
You’re absolutely right, it wasn’t the same. The Jewish exodus from the muslim world was way worse.
Those weren’t ignored, they were addressed with the last link. Palestinians are not responsible for the Jewish exodus. Your argument is trying justify the Israeli Apartheid and Genocide by conflating Palestinians with all Arabs/Muslims and conflating all Jewish people with Israel.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal such as deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.
Forced expulsion of Palestinians has been central to Zionism since the 1880’s
There are a lot of factors of the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world, but your conflating of the two as justification or minimization of the Nakba doesn’t work; unless you somehow think all Arabs or Muslims are the same. But it’s pretty clear your racist towards Palestinians or Arabs or Muslims when your argument boils down to ‘they are violent primitives and deserve to die,’ just going straight to dehumanization and ignoring all material conditions of Apartheid
Iraqi-born Israeli historian Avi Shlaim, speaking of the wave of Iraqi Jewish migration to Israel, concludes that, even though Iraqi Jews were “victims of the Israeli-Arab conflict”, Iraqi Jews aren’t refugees, saying “nobody expelled us from Iraq, nobody told us that we were unwanted.” He restated that case in a review of Martin Gilbert’s book, In Ishmael’s House.
Yehuda Shenhav has criticized the analogy between Jewish emigration from Arab countries and the Palestinian exodus. He also says “The unfounded, immoral analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi immigrants needlessly embroils members of these two groups in a dispute, degrades the dignity of many Mizrahi Jews, and harms prospects for genuine Jewish-Arab reconciliation.” He has stated that “the campaign’s proponents hope their efforts will prevent conferral of what is called a ‘right of return’ on Palestinians, and reduce the size of the compensation Israel is liable to be asked to pay in exchange for Palestinian property appropriated by the state guardian of ‘lost’ assets.”
Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath has rejected the comparison, arguing that while there is a superficial similarity, the ideological and historical significance of the two population movements are entirely different. Porath points out that the immigration of Jews from Arab countries to Israel, expelled or not, was the “fulfilment of a national dream”. He also argues that the achievement of this Zionist goal was only made possible through the endeavors of the Jewish Agency’s agents, teachers, and instructors working in various Arab countries since the 1930s. Porath contrasts this with the Palestinian Arabs’ flight of 1948 as completely different. He describes the outcome of the Palestinian’s flight as an “unwanted national calamity” that was accompanied by “unending personal tragedies”. The result was "the collapse of the Palestinian community, the fragmentation of a people, and the loss of a country that had in the past been mostly Arabic-speaking and Islamic.
Those weren’t ignored, they were addressed with the last link.
You didn’t address anything. You posted 3 unsourced paragraphs from 3 random historians that contain cherrypicked statements that confirm your biases. This isn’t the smoking gun evidence you think it is. Their opinions have no bearing on the actual events that happened, assuming that these are their opinions or that their opinions are credible, both of which are big ifs. I actually linked over a dozen examples of actual events and their aftermath in over half a dozen countries, including the Palestinian territories. I actually provided context, you provided confirmation bias.
Palestinians are not responsible for the Jewish exodus. Your argument is trying justify the Israeli Apartheid and Genocide by conflating Palestinians with all Arabs/Muslims and conflating all Jewish people with Israel.
The Palestinians had their own ethnic cleansing of Jews, but that’s besides the point. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is not contained to just Israel and Palestine. It is much bigger than that, and it has affected way more people. Disingenuous people like you try to box in the conflict to specific parameters to push propaganda fueled narratives, like you brought up about apartheid and genocide. The fact that this is how you’re choosing to frame things just shows that you don’t actually have an interest in the truth, but rather your interest lies in satisfying the narratives you’ve subscribed to. You can’t oversimplify the conflict. You can’t erase the coalition wars the Arabs waged against Israel or the million Jews that were exiled from the islamic world or the havoc that the Palestinian refugees caused in the Arab countries that invited them or so on. If this conflict was localized to just Israel and Palestine then it would be such a big global conflict. It would’ve been thought of in the same light as the Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict or the Morocco-Sahrawi conflict… but it’s not… for a reason.
Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, or religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making the society ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal such as deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.
I’m not sure what you were trying to achieve here, but I already know the definition of ethnic cleansing.
Forced expulsion of Palestinians has been central to Zionism since the 1880’s
Literally 21% of Israeli citizens are Arab, and another 6% is neither Jewish or Arab.
There are a lot of factors of the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world, but your conflating of the two as justification or minimization of the Nakba doesn’t work;
That’s not what I’m doing. You’re trying very hard to push this idea, but it’s not going to work. If you actually scroll up and read my original statement, I simply claimed that the violence and ethnic cleansing went both ways… which is undoubtably true.
unless you somehow think all Arabs or Muslims are the same.
No, but the conflict is broader than what you’re trying to make it out to be. Take Jordan for example. This country has taken part in multiple coalition wars against Israel on behalf of Palestine, spent decades supporting Palestine militarily/economically/politically, had governed the West Bank, ethnically cleansed Jews from it’s land, ethnically cleansed Jews from East Jerusalem, lost both to Israel, had taken in a lot of Palestinians, kicked out those Palestinians when they tried to overthrow the government (black September), expelled the PLO to Lebanon, took in Palestinians again afterwards, became the second Arab country to recognize Israel, and the list goes on and on. This is a history that runs deep with the conflict. It’s not just Jordan, but also Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and so on. You can’t pretend that this history doesn’t exist. No, not all Arabs or muslims are the same and not all Jews are the same, but this conflict is interwoven with these identities, at least to a degree.
But it’s pretty clear your racist towards Palestinians or Arabs or Muslims
I’m literally Arab, I’m Iraqi. But I’m sure you know more about Arab world than I do.
when your argument boils down to ‘they are violent primitives and deserve to die,’ just going straight to dehumanization and ignoring all material conditions of Apartheid
When did I do that exactly? I have at no point argued anything even remotely close to that. I merely challenged the brain dead and blatantly false narrative that you and your propaganda driven friends here are harping on, which is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one sided and always has been when that’s very clearly not true. I then proceeded to give examples that disprove this notion. It’s clear you don’t actually have a case to present. You try to sound smart, but once you scratch the surface the facade disappears and you reveal yourself to be a pretentious . If you’re going to lie and put words in my mouth then I have no interest in talking with you.
I see your point. It’s not wrong when it happens to Arabs but wrong when it happens to Jews. Can you help me fill in the blanks?
R A _ _ S _
Spoiler
racist ass motherfucker
Uh… Have you heard of the word “settlement”?
How can you comment on something you don’t understand? Israel already took control of the Sinai when Egypt declared war on them and lost. Israel voluntarily gave it up in exchange for recognition. Egypt has kept their word, so why would Israel break theirs? Egypt and Israel are actually good allies.
Uh… I think you missed the part that said “when Egypt inevitably collapses”.
It already has, numerous times. Nothing happened.
Huh? Are we having the same conversation?
I’m pointing that Egypt has already collapsed since Israel captured the Sinai and returned it in exchange for recognition. You claimed that when this Egyptian government collapses, or rather if it does, then Israel will seize the opportunity to do so. But they’ve had this opportunity presented to them already. For example, in 2011… but they didn’t do anything, so why would they now?
Uh… Egypt did not collapse in 2011. That was a regime change. I’m talking about a Libya or Syria-style failure to keep existing as a sovereign state.
Government collapses tend to count as state collapses, but using your definition it’s pretty hard for Egypt to end up in that state. Unless an extremely powerful empire like the British or the Ottomans takes over. Egypt’s geography makes it very hard for the country to be divided and fall into civil war. Virtually all Egyptians live on the Nile or its delta, and those areas are completely packed with a fairly homogenous population. There’s isn’t a big demographic rift or a clear ideological divide. There’s the Coptic Christians who make up 10% of the population, but they aren’t large enough to do anything and there’s the islamic fundamentalists, who do cause trouble, but they either swing the whole country in that direction or don’t have enough influence to do anything.
