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My non EV is still perfectly serviceable and I don’t like all the superfluous electronic touchscreen bullshit they’re putting in modern vehicles so I’m going to keep driving it until the wheels fall off.
Yup, I’m looking at used EVs to replace my commuter (50mpg, so no hurry), and they come with a bunch of smart crap, so I’m looking at ways to block any potential phoning home before I buy the car.
It’s dumb. Just give me an EV with 150-200 miles range with no smart crap for $20k and I’ll buy it.
Yes. Preferably an option in the form of a small single cab pickup truck with a full size bed.
Yeah, I would probably buy that. I currently use my minivan for must “truck” things, but neither my wife or I like driving it, and we can’t just get a load of mulch or whatever.
So yeah, something like the old Ford ranger would be awesome.
I don’t know what telematics the Leaf had, but you’re describing what Nissan tried to do with that
Neither do I, and that’s concerning. Here’s their privacy policy:
Connected Vehicle Data
If you have a connected vehicle, your vehicle may be equipped with NissanConnect Services, which electronically transmits data generated by your vehicle. This information could include data collected in the context of a trial period or demonstration mode. Through these services, we may obtain vehicle and driving information, such as:
- Vehicle operation – including Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), Precise Geolocation and navigation information, speed and distance information, driving behavior, EV battery information (including use management, charging history and performance), electrical system functions, diagnostic trouble codes, maintenance conditions, software version information, and similar data
- Vehicle usage – your use of the vehicle’s functions and some corresponding services, websites and smartphone applications
- Vehicle status – information about door locks, open doors, engine status, etc.
- Vehicle safety – data about certain accidents involving the vehicle (for example, the direction from which the vehicle was hit, and which air bags have deployed)
I don’t know if NissanConnect is optional (looks like it is?), or if it’s “optional,” as in you need to accept to access core car features, like setting battery charge limits, redeeming a warranty, or accessing diagnostics. But I know the capability exists and I’d really like to have guarantees, as in, can I block Nissan from remotely accessing my vehicle? If not, can I remove the module without impacting other functions of the car?
But it’s really hard (at least in my few minutes of searching) to figure out what privacy concerns there are and what options I have to deal with it.
It’s an industry wide problem for sure. Whatever politician takes that up will get huge votes.
My EV is likely one of the worst offenders l, but they’re all offenders
When I looked into similar for my 1996 Pontiac, it was already a concern, and it’s gotten much worse
I looked into it a bit, and it looks like Chevy’s OnStar should be easy to remove (just a circuit board behind the dash). It’s ridiculous that I need to go through this though, I should be able to just turn it off and it would be off…
Same. With my driving needs I get fuel about every 2 weeks so it’s not a big burden. And I go on several long road trips each year and charging stations are not something I need to deal with.
Price, range, infrastructure, in roughly that order of importance when averaged over the population. The article then goes into factors affecting price. (Of course, the article originated with the Financial Times and was only reprinted by Ars, so it makes sense that they would put money first.)
Exactly.
I’m willing to get a commuter EV, but almost everything either has too little range (e.g. older Leafs) or too much range that drives up the cost. I’m not willing to spend $30k+ on something that can really only be a commuter.
EVs don’t have the range to replace our family car since we do road trips, and anything with enough storage is already way more than a reasonable hybrid. Add to that high electricity rates at charging stations, and I’m just not interested.
So, make an affordable EV ($20k, ideally less) with 150-200 miles range, and I’ll buy it. I’m looking at used Bolts, which seem to be ~$15k after the credit for used. There really should be something new in this category though…
That’s what I’ve been saying for the last several years: give me a good commuter EV to replace my more commuter ICE. I still think two car households in single family homes are the ideal market, but i divorced my second car and spent a little more in the EV that can get me places. So far so good with road trips up to 3 hours, but we’ll see this summer with bigger road trips
For me, the last time I was in the market for a replacement vehicle, the 2 biggest factors were availability and price.
The dealers had zero stock (except maybe a rare fully optioned ridiculously priced example of the top of the line model), and I was not in a position to wait 2+ months for a factory order of a car that I couldn’t even test drive.
Of course there aren’t many people buying EVs when the only ones available in the US are high end luxury models.
Import a bunch of those cheap Chinese EVs and lots of people will buy them. It won’t hurt the US manufacturers because they don’t produce any budget models.
There’s the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt/Spark, Mini Cooper EV, Hyundai Kona/Ioniq 6, Fiat 500e and more. These qualify for subsidies if purchased new plus all the gas savings make them decently affordable or you can always buy them used as most people do.
Most people are going for the midrange models like the Model Y, Model 3, Ioniq 5, etc though since it’s not really ideal to buy the ‘worst’ version of something when making a large purchase. People want more range, space, and features. Even with ICE cars, the subcompacts sell/sold pretty poorly.
These qualify for subsidies if purchased new
They also qualify if purchased used. I’m looking at Bolts priced at $13-17k after the used EV credit. That’s pretty decent, I just need to go test drive a couple and make it happen.
But that only works because I’m replacing a commuter. It would be a non-starter for a family car because the maximum range is our minimum distance between stops at gas stations on road trips. We recently drove >800 miles each way on a road trip to visit family. On gas, that took us 12-13 hours. With an EV, I don’t think we could make it in a day, even if recharges took 20-30 min (and that’s a pretty big if, because the fast charging network isn’t great).
It will hurt US manufacturers, because their budget gasoline cars won’t sell.
And they’ll spend more money fighting the inevitable pivot to EVs than they would if they just pivoted now.
Import a bunch of those cheap Chinese EVs and lots of people will buy them
Or start building affordable EVs here.
Back in the 70s when Toyota, Datsun, Honda etc started eating the big 3’s lunch on affordable fuel efficient vehicles, they responded with smaller cars of their own.
If they’re not willing to respond to market demand and competition, do they even deserve to stay in business?
Isn’t that what the “free market” they claim to love enforces?
I’ll tell you why I won’t buy one.
I’m not going to go into debt as much as a house would’ve cost me 20 years ago so I can drive a 10,000 pound explosive that I spend several hours a day charging, be asked to pull over to turn on Bluetooth, have a tracking device in my car, which the government can turn off if they like, have to fumble with a touch screen to turn up the air conditioner, have to pay rent for features built into the car and then have any features I purchased be non transferrable on the secondary market. These are all fuck you’s to me, so I say fuck you to them. Take your vendor lock in SAAS product and shove it up your ass. You want me to give a shit about emissions, fix all that, until then I’m driving a 20 year old beater.
If you’re looking for a 10,000 pound vehicle, and are not one of a very small percentage that needs it, you have other problems. Yes, EVs are too heavy, but think like 20% heavier that on comparable, it’s not that bad. It’s only excessively huge inefficient trucks that are that heavy. My mid-sized SUV EV is a 4,000 pound explosive, thank you very much.
One of the benefits, if you’re able to install a home charger, is to never really have to think about refueling. Think of it like charging a phone and just get into the habit of charging over night. I need to recharge a couple hours per week, but I never have to go anywhere. When I get home, if the car is below 50%, I plug in. Then It’s always just ready to go without me ever waiting or going anywhere. So much more convenient than gas stations. Granted road trips aren’t as convenient but they’re also not as bad as people fear
You’re literally describing every new car now, whether EV or ICE.
Yup, and I won’t buy a new gas car either.
Meh, some/much of this is in every new car.
But EV’s take it to a new level with shit you just can’t disable.
I have a car with some of this shit. Just had to disconnect the cell antenna and attach a dummy to block it. Try that with an EV and it’ll probably have a heart attack.
How is that a “meh”? Don’t buy that nonsense. Show the automakers that we’re more willing to drive rust buckets than accept that new tracking nonsense.
It’s one of the big issues giving me pause on replacing our cars. I can either buy something a few years old and probably avoid it (need to do research), or I can get an EV and learn how to disable it.
I share your sentiment but I’m aware that I’m very weird and most people don’t care about most of it.
Same. I wish more people shared some of my weird values (but not all of them).
Money. That’s the answer
Buy an EV? In this economy?
Buy an
EVything? In this economy?
I’ve never even driven an EV, they’re comically far out of my price range.
Would you buy one if they were more affordable? Personal experience I agree they are quite a lot of money to get behind the wheel of.
While we have plenty of gas stations to fill up with home charging can be another hurdle that’s costly or impossible depending on the living situation.
I sure would. I’m not one of those people who scoffs at modern cars.
Environmental reasons aside, they tend to have lots of bells and whistles that cars like my 20 year old Toyota doesn’t have. Parking sensors, better climate control, a multimedia system, etc.
I like my car but I’d swap it for an EV without a second thought if it was possible!
All of them are expensive, and almost all of them are ugly as fuck. And the ones that I would consider even decent looking enough to drive are even more expensive than the others.
At least for me the reasons are
- Lack of interest
- They’re ridiculously Ugly
- Range (I’ve driven 1500 miles in the last 3 weeks)
- Driving Experience is worse (opinion, but still something I stand by)
- Charging
- Price
When I was looking at new cars an EV wasn’t even an option. I wanted a 2 door performance coupe and there isn’t anything even close to that in EVs, let alone on the used market. A 2014 Audi was a better choice in almost every metric beyond gas prices.
I would like to note that if you wanted to drive as far as possible, my car could probably go more than 5000mi in three weeks, though I typically only drive a few hundred a week.
And contrary to a gas car I never have to stop to fuel, I just get home and it charges over night.
Also, what’s wrong with the “driving experience”? It’s not loud enough or something?
I regularly do 400+ mile trips in a day or two ( I’m a photographer ) and need to be able to quickly have range available in non major metro areas.
Since I live in an apartment overnight charging isn’t an option. So I’d still have to go places to charge, which takes significantly longer than stopping for gas.
Driving experince is subjective, but instant power with no real hp/torque curves makes driving really boring. There’s no response from the car, it’s just an On/Off toggle. There’s no real fun to driving it.
Yes the sound is a major part. I’ve got a very nice, valved exhaust system on my new car that adds a ton to how much fun the car is. Hearing the engine, how it responds and how the power is applied is a major part of the fun of driving.
If all you want is a car to get from point A to point B, an EV is completely fine, but as someone who genuinely enjoys cars and driving, EVs are boring and will 100% get you laughed out of most car shows.
You’re worried it’s not loud enough and that people will laugh at you in car shows?? You’re part of the problem.
Nah, I just enjoy cars and (legal) racing.
I’m never going to be interested in an EV. They’re boring, soulless creations that don’t interest me as an enthusiast. They’re great commuter vehicles, but that’s where their use ends. ICE is always going to be preferred by car people.
You know this hobby of yours is directly or indirectly bad for the environment, for society (Middle East tensions, see 9/11), for road safety in case of SUVs that block view of children in front of it, for city planning, and I could go on. But still you’re a “car person”, so none of that matters.
Normal people will have to wait for you and other “car people” to die off for the planet to become a better place. Until then, you’re actively making things worse.
Why is charging bad? Id argue it’s a plus. You never have to go to a gas station and every morning you wake up with a full charge for your day.
I don’t have a place to charge at home, nor a way to run a cord from my apartment to a car, so charging becomes a 20-30 minute ordeal instead of a 3 minute tank of gas on my way to work.
The answer to questions like these is always money.
Money for infrastructure and money to buy the thing.
Where I live, there’s one charging station. And it’s like 8 miles or so from my house. I’ve yet to see more. It’s also a fairly rural area. I think we forget how much population lives outside cities.
You don’t have electricity in your house??
Of course he does. But a standard house power connection does not deliver the amount of power you need to charge a car.
So you need to build a charging pole at your house if you want to charge ar home. Which is another investment.
And if you are in a somewhat remote area and there are not many charging poles around you, you are also very limited in how far and how fast you can travel.
So there really is no point investing in a charging pole and an EV car if the car is not capable of doing to the same things that a gas car can do.
It’s nowhere near as bad as you think. A level 2 charger is essentially an electric stove circuit, and the chargers are only a few hundred dollars. I had to do both this year and there really wasn’t a significant cost difference. I charge once or twice a week for a couple hours. It’s quite reasonable to install a level 2 charger if you have a single family house with off street parking
Or for like $150, I got a full set of adapters to charge pretty much everywhere. In addition to a regular outlet, I can plug into a 240v dryer/powertool/heater/ac outlet, or an RV outlet for a faster charge.
While I do have many charging stations nearby (and I’ll bet that’s far more common in the population than people who don’t), with a home charger, I’ve never had the need to use a public charger less than 100 miles from here
Well, it is enough for my car… You don’t need 50kW if you charge over Night (same Like you don’t need fast charge g, if you charge your phone over night)
Remember the yanks have pink fluffy girly 110v electricity. They’ve only just been told about kettles and they think a microwave is a cooking device
Yea, but normally you can draw about 15 amps compared to the 10 amps typically allowed un EU. 110v x 15A = more then 1.5kW which should totally be enough to charge over night (maybe blug it in every night)
I just learned that you can steam broccoli in the microwave and it’s such a time saver!
The problem here is that you think the only viable method to charge an electric vehicle is a level 2 or above charger. The average person, even in more rural areas, generally drives less than 60 miles in a day. Which is something that can be recouped overnight with a standard 15 amp outlet. And that’s assuming it’s only plugged in for 8 hours. Most people’s cars sit idle at home much longer than that. You don’t even need to go Fancy with a dryer Outlet much less a level2 charger.
Unless you’re somewhat remote area is over 200 mi from the nearest charger the majority of electric vehicles will get you there without you having to drive like a grandma. As many of them have somewhere on the order of 250 to 280 miles of range on a full charge now.
It depends on the circuit in the garage and people need to check. But trickle charging overnight is entirely feasible for many people.
Or I got a fairly cheap set of adapters that also work for 240v dryer/power tool, and RV outlets. I ought to be able to charge by y vehicle pretty much everywhere
My car is plugged in to a normal power outlet in my garage. As long as it’s not sharing a circuit with a stove or ac compressor or something it’ll be fine, and even if it is you could work around that.
IDK about houses, but this would be the case for people in apartment buildings. What should you do? Not even joke about “lowering a cord from your window” because it’s not guaranteed that your street parking is near your windows!
Yes, of course, but in remote areas you very rarely have apartment buildings, as I recall.
That is not accurate. There are plenty of apartment buildings far away from commercial areas. They can be surrounded by rural areas or suburban areas (SFH zoning).
😮 and there are no changes at such remote apartment places?
Why would there be? Electric cars are luxury items bought by people who own homes.
My co-worker has an electric car and lives in an apartment without a charger. Luckily our office has a few chargers and he only needs to charge it once or twice a week. If he really needed it he could charge at a public fast charger somewhere else in town, but he tries to avoid that.
Yeah, my office has a couple free chargers. It’s really not worth the fuss for me since I can charge at home and it’s a short commute but I’m happy to see there’s always a queue
If my - or any other - complex had charging stations, I’d consider it. The most I’d ever be able to get is a hybrid, if I wasn’t so dirt-ass poor that an old and busted used car was the best that I could afford, because I’m disabled and live in friggin America.
Can anyone name me one that is a normal fucking car? With a little dial that tells you how fast you’re going that isn’t an LCD display that can’t be read in direct sunlight connected to an internet connected computer that will never get OS updates? With a gear shift lever that moves forward and back or up and down to select park, reverse and drive, not a nipple in the glove box to lick for “Forward,” a knob on the ceiling labeled “H” and to put it in reverse you honk the word REVERSE on the horn? Where the doors have handles that you pull on to open that look like door handles, and locks that have cylinders that accept keys?
The only ones I’ve found close to this is bz4x or soltera. Which is why I got it. But no drive shaft really sucks and confuses the heck out of me when I have to drive my outback around.
Volkswagen E-golf seems to fit your description.
Seems they’re discontinued?
Yes, the used ones are still pretty good though. I think the ID3 and ID4 are the successors to the eGolf.
Id2 is the actual successor. It’s planned to be the first VW “affordable” EV with a starting price below 25000 euros when it releases in 2025. At least they now try to target the budget market, but I’d never recommend a VW. They have done so much bad quality cars since the late 90s…
Been Driving one for almost 6 years and I gotta tell you the car is awesome. Sadly the battery-capacity is a bit dated. Depends on the use-case tho. Another negative point is the limited charging speed. In comparison to „modern“ EVs it‘s rather slow
The 2023 Chevy Bolt I drove for a week had normal controls.
Because if you live in an apartment your only option for charging is to go to a charging location. You can’t just plug it in overnight.
Which I can see as a big hurdle for a lot of people.
Well, in some European countries you could load your car while at work or grocery shopping.
Depending in your commute this could just be enough.
Anyhow: the prices and (country-specific) loading network might be show stopper. Many other things are just habit and/or subjective convenience.
My son’s apartment had chargers.
I live in an apartment and just charge it once a week for 30 min while I do my grocery shopping. Ezpz. I’ve been doing this for 3 years and have never had a problem.
I charged my EV overnight from an overhead garage door power socket in my apartment for years before I moved out. Never even needed public charging. Many people just don’t realize you can charge from a normal household outlet
Near all apartments around me have exclusively open-air parking, so this isn’t a viable solution for many. It’s not that the available power is inadequate, it’s non-existent.
I’ve never had an apartment with a garage. At minimum I’d have needed a 100 ft extension cord. Probably longer, which means it’d have to be thicker. Which means more expensive.
And I’m not sure about your apartments but at mine (and many others in my area) we can’t have anything hanging out of our windows unless it’s an AC
If I tried an extension cord it’d be a violation of my lease
IDK either, but it wouldn’t surprise me. Last place I was at they didn’t like that I removed their blinds. Not like I tossed them, but theirs sucked ass and I use blackout curtains anyway.
Had the same problem at my apartment, my workaround was putting the blinds back and putting my blackout curtains behind the blinds (because putting them between the blinds and the window made them upset too)
At least my apartment is wired mostly properly. Still have things on breakers that don’t make sense though.
That’s also what I did. It was just stupid and more difficult. Cause it was the blinds to the patio door.
I live in a suburb with a lot of one- and two-car garages, but mine is one of the few houses without cars parked in the driveway or on the street. My neighbors on one side converted their garage into a living space during COVID, and the ones on the other use it for storage of things other than cars.
So even with garages you need space in that garage to store your car, which is yet another hurdle.
What percentage of people live in apartments?
Surely those people should be taking public transport anyway not buying a car when they live downtown.
The better question here is what percentage of likely EV buyers live in apartments. People that would be a potential customer if it weren’t for living in an apartment.
Depends what the point is. If we want to sell EVs for some goal of selling EVs that fine I guess. But it still goes back to the point of you start with the easiest 80% first.
But if we want to improve everyone’s life on this planet and the planet itself. Trying to convince people who shouldn’t own a car to buy an EV is very poor planning. It just so short sighted and consumerist for the sake of consumerism.
An enormous percentage, especially in the current housing market, however…
Many (most?) American cities have wildly inadequate public transit and are prone to sprawl. Many Americans live in apartments, but are a multiple mile walk from their grocery store. If there’s any public transit at all it’s probably an infrequent and unreliable bus line that may not go anywhere near their home to begin with. They live in apartments, but are not anywhere near ‘downtown’.
These are problems that need to be solved, and quickly, but public transit is best grown with a city, which didn’t happen. Inserting a subway after the fact is difficult, expensive, and slow.
The reality of right-now (which is all a renter is likely to be able to consider financially) is that a reliable car is an essential item in most parts of the country.
According to Quota its ~80% of people live in houses.
Classic 80:20 rule. Making excuses for why the most difficult 20% doesn’t work is the wrong way of thinking about it. Most of the result for least effort cones from dealing with the 80%.
You explicitly asked about apartments tho
The title is about why “Americans” aren’t buying EV’s. The excuse of them living in an apartment only applies to ~20% of the population.
That’s not enough to explain why Americans aren’t buying, just why 20% if Americans aren’t.
And like I said you don’t start with the most difficult and you don’t push a solution onto a problem when it isn’t the right solution anyway.
You realize not all apartments are located in big cities? Plenty of people live in small towns with no or shitty public transportation.
I’ve had an EV for four years now and I’ve relied exclusively on public charging. I won’t say it’s never been without any annoyances but overall it was pretty unproblematic. It can absolutely be done if you want it. Recently they installed chargers at my workplace so now I’m fine and dandy.
This was my biggest issue. I live in a townhouse with a carport-ish thingy, but the same issue applies.
Even Level 1 charging is pretty notable, means the vast majority of your daily miles still come from charging at home. This should be achievable if you have an outside plug and an outdoor extension cable.
Though, I suspect from your statement even that isn’t possible due to ownership issues.
I think most people in the market for an EV know that all the manufacturers are changing the charging port to the Tesla NACS standard next year. Range anxiety is still the biggest issue for EV adoption and the supercharger network is the only practical option right now. Tesla hasn’t innovated in a while and current Tesla owners are put off by Musk’s antics. I’d personally wait a year to see what the options are.
Range anxiety is still the biggest issue for EV adoption
Only because people keep making false claims like:
the supercharger network is the only practical option right now
Because the most environmentally friendly car, is the one you already own.
Producing ev is heavy strain on the climate. This change won’t happen overnight.
Ev needs to be better and cheaper if it wants to defeat the ice market.
It already is better and cheaper, but we have regressive tariffs on the country producing them.
We have to switch at some point. We can’t just keep making ICE cars and saying the next generation will be electric.
I’ve been saying since EVs hit the market that I couldn’t wait for them to be cheap enough used for me to justify purchasing one. That hasn’t happened yet. Most I’ve ever spent on a car was $7k.
For sure, we can’t expect a good used EV market until we establish a strong new EV market.
