For those unfamiliar, GrapheneOS is a privacy and security enhanced custom ROM endorsed by Snowden. Despite these big names, plenty of people give it backlash
Even @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml gives it backlash despite being a moderator of Lemmy’s biggest privacy community. A quote here: “grapheneOS trolls are downvoting every single post and comment of mine, and committing vote manipulation on Lemmy. They are using 5-6 accounts.” That was in response to downvotes on a comment posted in the c/WorldNews community, which is entirely unrelated to technology.
One of the reasons is that GrapheneOS can only be installed on Google Pixels due to security compatibility, which makes complete sense considering Android should be most compatible with Google’s own devices. GrapheneOS even lists the exact reasons they chose Pixels, and encourage people to step up and manufacture a different supported device.
One year ago, Louis Rossmann posted this video outlining his reasons for deleting GrapheneOS. Mainly, he had multiple bad experiences with Daniel Micay (the founder and main developer of GrapheneOS) which put his distrust in the GrapheneOS project. Since then, he has stepped down and will no longer be actively contributing to the project.
So, I am here to learn why exactly people still do not like GrapheneOS.
Micay stepped down but the animosity he created within the community persisted.
@Charger8232 The main dev is definitely still there it seems, (and still making claims) more over the harassment comes from all the devs (and by consequence, users)
@Charger8232 It makes it worse because they keep trying to make points and compare with others, like, OK, WE GET IT. Go on, continue fueling hate and then claim to be the victim.
@Charger8232 I shouldn’t even say anything but it’s too much.
Honestly, I think you summed up the biggest issues. As much as I look forward to getting a Pixel for my next phone solely for GrapheneOS, it’s understandable for people looking to degoogle to not want to buy a Google phone. The developer I think is the bigger issue. Despite having since stepped down, his behavior went unchecked for long enough to make quite a bad reputation and leave a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths. While recovering from that will simply take time, I have wondered why they haven’t taken the opportunity to come out with a Graphene-lite for non-Pixels. Something like CarbonOS as secure as possible sans Google hardware. Could easily overtake Calyx/Lineage.
I recommend people look at DivestOS, and will probably go this myself in the near future
DivestOS is a security hardened version of Lineage and supports Bootloader relocking ans verified boot for at least several phones.
the develop is also a very cool guy, very intelligent and does not sperg out like an autist like Micay
The problematic dev never stepped down they still pull the same crazy shenanigans like banning anyone he disagrees with.
I have wondered why they haven’t taken the opportunity to come out with a Graphene-lite for non-Pixels
The issue I see is simply a lack of developers to do so. Trying to split the team between two mostly different projects would most likely cripple both.
I think the issue is Play Integrity/SafetyNet. If you can’t lock the bootloader, you can’t get it without using illegal hacks. GrapheneOS only passes Basic Integrity but that’s just details
@Charger8232 @DARbarian I don’t think that’s it, it’s more that they’re a project where you’re expected to buy a device for it, in this case a Pixel.
Pixels have amazing security features and they don’t want to lose that.
They tell you why right on their website. They dev for Pixels because it’s a stable platform with a predictable future.
If you’re not going to listen to the devs, I don’t know what to say.
People have to learn to separate software from its developer.
For example, I don’t care about Hyprland dev being an asshole sometimes, if the WM he’s developing works good. I don’t care about Cider’s devs political positions if it doesn’t directly affect my experience with the software.And people also have to learn, that if someone uses any particular software, they aren’t necessarily using it the way developer pointed out they should.
I use GrapheneOS on my device, but that doesn’t mean that I completely follow devs philosophy. I don’t use Vanadium, 'cause I don’t wanna support Chromium monopoly. I use F-Droid to install my apps, even if developers think, that I should get my apps directly from its devs.Does GrapheneOS founder or developer philosophy that you don’t agree with makes Graphene a bad OS? Of course it doesn’t. GrapheneOS is still one of the best options on degoogling your device if not the best.
I know this is somewhat controversial but I agree with this when it comes to FOSS software. Proprietary is a different story. But for foss software, the developer literally gains nothing from you using their software. So if the software is good and works to your benefit, why not use it? Yea okay the developer is a POS but how does that affect the product? And you using GrapheneOS does not mean you are supporting the developer as again, this is a FOSS product, you are not paying them with money or data or code.
if the software is good and works to your benefit, why not use it?
sometimes people just don’t feel comfortable using work of someone who opposes their rights. even just using the product gives the creator more exposure, recognition, possible funding in the future if it gets big enough, and so on. so, if the creator is openly transphobic, for example, trans folks won’t want to use the product, and doubly so when the community around the product is toxic, too. they’re voting with their feet.
That is understandable, but no need to be going out and attacking people who recommend GrapheneOS like the mod did. It would be much better if he just points out the major flaws of the GrapheneOS community the same way that Techlore and Louis Rossmann did, rather than dogging on anyone and everyone who recommends an otherwise great operating system.
Personally is due to the toxicity of their dev and socials team, basically if you ask something, you are wrong and they are right, if you recommend other options, you are wrong and they are right. They have been publicly raging war against cybersecurity content creators that dare question some decisions or do honest reviews (OS Is good but has it’s but scenarios) … Once they get better with their PR relationships most of the hate will go away.
I’ve been using grapheneOS and never knew the toxicity. Crazy.
Groups like this need to understand that their PR would do better if they said nothing at all rather than just being an asshole.
See also: CEO of Kagi search who thinks he can browbeat people into agreeing with him. It makes me never want to use Kagi.
Just shut up and let your fucking products speak for themselves. The more you rant about your philosophy to others, the less they actually want to use your products.
It’s likely because the developers are highly opinionated, and this is true even for topics they don’t know very much about. See the entire discussion about implementing battery charge limiting in GrapheneOS. This makes for a lot of friction for people who would like to see more focus on usability in GrapheneOS as opposed to it being purely focused on security.
I stopped reading threads on their forums because the developers are so abrasive even though I still use the rom, because I don’t mind the loss of usability compared to other roms. I can completely understand why there is a lot of negative sentiment around it though.
Wow, Graphene really doesn’t have charging limits?
I assume this is the discussion you referred to, and I think it broke my trust in the project.
I use Home Assistant for this BTW 😃
Interesting! I assume it involves a smart plug and an automation script that monitors battery level?
That’s it.
Oh, wow, that dude in the thread is proud in his ignorance.
It really does not. I use an external device connected via Bluetooth to achieve this on GrapheneOS, and others use home automation.
Edit: that thread isn’t what I’m referring to. There was a larger one, perhaps on their github, with a link to a blogpost about why charge limiting “isn’t necessary” being cited as the justification for why the rom doesn’t have the feature. Either way, it’s frustrating to read and best ignored.
What a weird situation. I suppose it’s nice those workarounds exist, even if they’re not ideal.
They do?
I dunno, maybe ask the person that says they hate it?
Your title is a sophist argument tactic called “begging the question”.
Bruh he’s literally asking the question
Uhhhhh it’s an OPEN question available to people who DO dislike the OS, so no. No just ASKING a question is NOT “begging the question”.
It’s asking a question.
It’s very close to begging the question, though. It really depends on OP’s actual intent, which is hard to determine through text. But it does seem like it could have a, “Those of you who still hate GrapheneOS, why are you wrong?” tone to it.
Edit: Reading through OP’s comments, they do sound genuine to me, I’m mostly just explaining why someone might mistake the post for begging the question.
Being hostile to a real question’s answers is also not begging the question.
Begging the question is a logical fallacy where someone is purposefully leaving out info or otherwise twisting things to end at a conclusion that was never properly supported. The point is there is an unsupported conclusion they’re trying to jump to.
Simply asking a question, even one with an obvious or sarcastic answer, is seldom “begging the question”.
Begging the question is a logical fallacy that assumes the conclusion within the premise. If OP was not being genuine, then the faulty conclusion would be “there are no good reasons to dislike GrapheneOS, therefore why do people dislike GrapheneOS?”
No, that’s NOT begging the question, that’s just being an ass about actually asking a question.
Maybe I have the wrong fallacy, or I’m just really stretching on this one.
This was my line of thinking:
- premise = there are no valid reasons to dislike X
- conclusion = people who dislike X don’t have any valid reasons
Well, since neither of you seems to want to post references, I’ll add a link.
It’s unfortunate the grapheneos community has a bad reputation, but I think the fact that Daniel stepped down and that the project is very committed and ticking all my personal boxes (and more) really keeps me devoted. I wish there were more options of phones, but I have no issue personally with it requiring google pixels as they have convinced me with what seems like rational and well supported arguments. I do wonder if as someone else mentioned, it may be interesting to have a GOS-light for other phones, just to give them a chance to get into GOS and try it out before getting a dedicated phone. It feels like a high barrier to entry, and a limited version may still be better than anything else available to those people? Just a thought.
Lol, this same mod banned me for a few days from this community because I was trying to tell him that he’s just making shit up about GrapheneOS
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“grapheneOS trolls are downvoting every single post and comment of mine, and committing vote manipulation on Lemmy. They are using 5-6 accounts.”
Is that really criticism of graphene os? or is it complaining about specific users who like graphene os?
It stems from a blind hatred for GrapheneOS and its users as a whole.
I think this is one of those situations where someone is downvoted and they can’t fathom why (because their opinion being unpopular is not possible) so it MUST be something they literally just manufactured in their head.
It was never so much about the hate for GOS as it was for Daniel. Daniel is a absolute genius but has some mental and paranoid issues. Which hurt GOS reputation in the proces, Dont get me wrong I do not hate the guy or GOS at all but I do agree Daniel has some serious issues.
People like to ntpick and fight. GrapheneOS is one of the best options (realistically of just a few) out there, and it’s pretty damn good and simple to get into.
I use it on my phone and my wife’s. I would like to get a Pixel tab too with Graphene. There is no other phone OS like it and it’s open source. I have had Lineage on an old phone and on a tablet currently and while it’s nice, GrapheneOS just works amazingly. I’ve also briefly tried Calyx but it had various small issues that Graphene doesn’t.
People like to take sides on the internet without doing proper research too, I think. I had this idea that Micay was toxic and kind of avoided the project for a long time. My conclusions after doing more research is that he is someone that lacks social skills and is indeed very opinionated. However, GrapheneOS isn’t made for privacy activists that can afford to use Mull instead of Vanadium, for example. GrapheneOS is made for people that cannot afford to have a phone that might leak information that could endanger their lives.
If Mikay was someone like Palmer Luckey which is a biggot that’s a whole different story. I am glad I gave GrapheneOS a try and I am very happy using it, even if it is kind of overkill for my privacy needs.
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Genuine question for you and I hope you don’t ban me again for asking an objective question.
Do CalyxOS or LineageOS (which doesn’t even allow you to lock the bootloader) have all these others security and privacy features?
Storage Scopes
Native Code Debugging
Hardened Memory Allocator
Pin Scrambling
Auto Reboot
Secure App Spawning
Bluetooth and Wifi Autodisconnect
MAC Address Randomization per connection
Sandboxed Google Play Services (I know Google is the devil and I know of Micro G but certain applications simply do not work without the actual Google Play Services installed, and having them sandboxed is significantly better than giving them privileged access)
These are just the few I can think of on top of my head. Because as far as I’m concerned, I originally had the same reaction after Rossman’s video and wanted to switch over to LineageOS (not Calyx because they’ve fallen as long as 4 months behind on security updates which is why Henry from Techlore stopped using Calyx even though he really likes the project), but GrapheneOS objectively is the most secure and hardened version of Android in my view. I would love to be proven wrong by actual evidence and not just a distrust in the OS because of the developers and their toxic community.
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What privacy oriented rom do you suggest?
Anyway happy cake day!
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Thanks for the alternatives.
I’m currently using a used ('cause fuck Google, you’re not gettin my money) Pixel phone with GrapheneOS (since my Pinephone stopped turning on) with TrackerControl and InviZible Pro. Is nice having a real clean AOSP rom with privacy/security customization.
GrapheneOS also provide an indeed cool feature: a proxy for Android services provided by Google, like Attestation key provisioning, Widevine provisioning, SUPL and PSDS. Does CalyxOS and/or LineageOS provide something like this?
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bruh, I think I agree with most of your conclusions, but you gotta work on your delivery, as it definitely doesn’t serve your message well. I think you receive a lot more pushback because you use so many harshly negative words to describe people.
Just in this comment, you use:
- disease
- sewer
- “security” clowns
- pure snake oil
- disgusting sole developer
- minions
- witch hunt
- maliciously
- trained monkeys
which makes this comment sound more like a Donald Trump rally than a well-reasoned argument. It’s understandable given your history of conflict with members of the project, and I usually hate tone policing, but I think this word choice severely hurts your argument. Remember, most people here are just passerby and have no idea about the drama or your experiences with their community. Their first impression is gonna be you’re the flip-side to Micay.
I think your thesis is largely correct, that the project does a suspicious amount of shilling for big tech and Google and pushes a lot of anti-FOSS propaganda and has a toxic social media presence that silences good people geniunely asking questions or voicing opinion in good faith.
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These people have been infiltrating the community for a while now. Look at that madaidan guy who blatantly pushes corporate propaganda similar to the grapheneos bots. They want to eventually make you use closed source garbage for “security” and compromising privacy in the process. That’s the intended plan.
