Edit: A few people have interpreted the title as serious, so I wanna clarify that it was meant as a sarcastic joke about how little sense the neurotypical world makes to me, but it is still legitimately me asking for help understanding said neurotypical world.
Was having a conversation with a friend today about why I seem unapproachable to people online. Apparently it’s for 2 reasons.
One is that I say “K.” all the time, as a short way of saying okay. She pointed out that most people find this rude and offensive. This kinda baffled me, because like why? She explained that like, if somebody were to give a long emotional speech and I just responded “K.” that would be offensive. That confounds me. So it’s rude in one context, and neurotypicals have decided to be offended by it in all contexts? But the reason it’s rude is what confuses me more. Apparently it’s considered lazy because you could have just typed out the word, but like, that applies to all text speech and nobody’s mad about people shortening those words.
But it got more confusing when she explained the second reason, which is that I end all of my sentences with proper punctuation, which she said “makes people feel like I’m done with the conversation and not interested.” But just a second ago improper grammar was rude, and now proper grammar is rude instead.
It baffles me. You can’t just use proper or improper grammar. Use too much improper grammar and you’re lazy and rude. Use too little and you’re also rude. But you can’t just use any improper grammar, you have to use the very specific subset of improper grammar that’s been deemed acceptable and not lazy (even though it’s exactly as lazy as what they do consider lazy.)
To be clear, I’m not bitter, and I’m definitely gonna adjust my behavior to hopefully seem a little less rude to people. I think that’s just a nice thing to do. I just find the neurotypical mind utterly fascinating. I don’t think they even realize how many contradictions exist in the social rules they all so easily accept.
I hope I won’t be too long on the topic. This is an historical question.
Why it’s like this, why are NTs deciding for us? It began in the Renaissance period with René Descartes. He was a philosophe and saw the human body as a machine. He wrote about this vision of the human. Each organ, muscle, bones are a piece of the machine. He did a direct comparison between the human and the material.
Later in the first half of the 19th century, an astronomer, and statistician had the idea to use statistics for human. Prior, statistic were in majority an instrument used for astronomy. Adolphe Quételet studied Scottish soldiers to make statistics of the human. He went further and did not only statistics on the body. He did statistics about injuries, body, and a lot more. With all of this, Quételet invented the average person. Without statistics, you can’t have an average person. This idea is important for the following. It’s also the key idea at the beginning of eugenic.
Someone was very interested in this topic. At the point, he coined the word “eugenic” itself. Francis Galton was the half-cousin of Charles Darwin. He came from a wealthy family and really like the work of his half-cousin on evolution. But, Galton wanted to apply it to society. He was also inspired by the concept of the average person of Quételet. Galton diverges of both of his predecessors. For Galton, the average person was not the person in the middle. No, it was the person at the bottom. There is a shift down compared to Quételet.
The poorer, the people without education, disabled, slaves, race shouldn’t be considered with Galton. There were just this average for the one able to work and earn what they need to survive. The others were not even at the bottom of the social ladder.
People with education, wealthy people, were of course at the top of this ladder. Galton also believed in birth control based on the assumption of the categorization of the human. Wealthy should reproduce as their genetic was better.
On this base, Galton developed a lot of theories that we still use nowadays, and in particular in psychology and psychiatry. But, his ideas in pathology survived.
More general, some of his ideas and theories are still around. Eugenic was very popular at the beginning of the 20th century – Galton began his work at the second half of the 19th century. People founded during this time eugenic society, university cursus, etc.
With WWII, eugenic fall in disgrace. People working in the field made a shift in their career. They went to psychology, psychiatry, philosophy, sociology, anthropology…
In the 50s and later in the 60s and 70s, a new movement emerged with anti-psychiatry. In this ideology, you will find many points of view. They had and have in common that we should not intern people that aren’t the average person, in other words the norm. Yes, the average person of Galton became a norm. If people are disabled, they don’t produce anything and aren’t included in the norm. They interned these unproductive people. Some went against it.
But, in one side of anti-psychiatry, you had people who think that people with psyachiatric issues were faking it. The idea is that people are lazy and invented their illness, condition, difference to do nothing. These people in anti-psychiatry wanted to close the asylums, so people will have to work. Spoiler alert: It didn’t work, and people ended on the street or in jail.
But, all these people thinking people were lazy were in the normal at least. This scheme continued to today, and we end with NTs in charge of deciding…
I can only recommend the read of the book “Empire of Normality; Neurodiversity and Capitalism”, by Robert Chapman.
Alright. That’s bullshit. Not entirely. But it’s riddled with it. The “k” part, I understand. This can be considered rude and to be honest, it’s my way of saying “whatever dude”.
BUT that’s how I use it. I have met people who use it as a lazy but friendly way of “alright, got it”. So it depends on who uses it and what its intention is supposed to be. You either have to be incredibly nuanced or have to know the person who is using it to properly interpret it. Which your friend kinda doesn’t. I’m not blaming her. I fail at it way too often myself.
The “ending a sentence with a period” on the other hand? My answer would have been “Are you high?!” Seriously, it doesn’t make any sense and it sounds made up.
The “ending a sentence with a period” on the other hand? My answer would have been “Are you high?!” Seriously, it doesn’t make any sense and it sounds made up.
I used to find it rude when someone ended a text message (specifically on IM platforms) with a period, though ever since some older relatives started texting I got used to it. I can also remember at least one time I ended a text message with a period because I was angry. This is also something I’ve noticed other people do.
In a way, since a text message already has a definitive end point, ending it with a period feels redundant. To me, this makes a period at the end almost feel like a “weak” exclamation mark.
In general I’ve noticed people use as little punctuation as possible when texting, instead breaking up longer thoughts into multiple short texts to compensate.
I’d noticed the thing where people send repeated short messages, but I didn’t realize that’s why they were doing it. I think I’m gonna have to take a middle ground though and just leave the period off my last sentence while trying to stay concise. I can’t stand being interrupted in the middle of a thought so I gotta get it all out in one message.
I send out multiple messages way too often because I think of something I should have added after I’ve sent the text. But I also almost always use proper punctuation, with the exception of often throwing in too many commas.
I think that’s a good middle ground, I do this too sometimes when I don’t want to be interrupted, or if I’m just sending someone some information without recent discussion.
I’d be surprised if anyone would find this rude.
Thing is, that knife cuts both ways, and some people find it rude when you don’t use proper punctuation.
I would personally interpret the short burst thing as a tantrum, FWIW, or some other form of disregulation.
It baffled me too, but people have legit complained about this stuff to her and she’s had to explain to them that I just talk like that. She has no expectation of me to change at all because she already understands my intentions perfectly well, but she told me simply because she felt I should know people were complaining.
As far as the period thing, apparently it’s the last sentence I’m supposed to leave punctuation off of. I don’t get it tbh. I mostly talk to people in MMOs and over Discord and apparently when I add a period to the end of the last sentence it makes people feel like I’m trying to end the conversation. It makes sense to me that people think that, given that every time I did it they’d just stop talking, but why they think that is a mystery to me. She said she thinks it’s because they’re just not used to it.So it seems to be some sort of linguistic peculiarity in that specific group. MMO players tend to be relatively sheltered, so it could have formed organically? This makes sense to me. It’s unlikely, but it sounds better than “let’s make shit up and fuck with him”.
I don’t know how I would handle this. Most people I play with online are even deeper in the spectrum than I am. Do me a favour, the next time they have an conversation, just throw a single punctuation in the chat and see how they react.
Maybe. I actually scrolled back through the Discord we’re in and only found exactly one other person who uses proper punctuation. Scrolling through my other Discord servers though and people use proper punctuation all the time. It does seem to be a thing that may be specific to this group.
Also coincidentally I actually did witness somebody send a message that was nothing but a single period earlier today, and the reaction was everybody briefly paused then continued on like nothing happened.
Whether it’s a localized phenomenon or a wider one, it’s still weird to me.Single period usually means drama is happening, for some reason
It’s less about contradiction and more chaos formed from pattern matching. Neurotypical people pattern match the people around them’s behaviors subconsciously. Random behaviors rise to the top and get mirrored by bigger and bigger groups. The contradictions only become visible when they have to consciously explain their behavior and start describing things as rules. They aren’t actually rules because in 1 or 3 or 10 years it will be completely different. What actually matters is that most of the time they are behaving similarly to mirror the behavior of those around them for any given situation
The actual skill to develop is to identify patterns in speech and typing of your peers and mirror them. I used to get comments from my friends that I sounded too formal in texts and chatrooms when I was younger so I just kind of obsessively pay attention to the patterns of different groups and match them. It’s frustrating because you have to stay on your toes and keep shifting with the new behaviors, but not impossible to keep up
That makes a lot of sense. I think I do notice patterns a lot, I just don’t see the reason the pattern exists, so I can’t determine if it’s a rude pattern or a polite pattern. That’s kinda what happened with “K.” I saw people use it everywhere and went “Ah, I see, so this is how people talk now. I should do it too.”
K
K.*
Your friend is at least partially misinforming you. It’s fine to write k instead of ok in almost all situations. But either of them can be rude if the other person would expect more additional words along with the k. For example here’s when k is fine:
Them: Bring my pen when you come into the other room
You: k
And here’s where k is not fine:
Them: Wanna go grab some drinks tonight at 8?
You: k
That’s rude. They would want to hear you actually be interested in their invitation. Like saying “great” or “I’m in” or whatever.
…Ooooh. I think that’s what she was trying to tell me actually and I just completely misunderstood. That second example is a type of situation I used it a lot in. I didn’t realize people needed to know how interested I was. I thought they just needed a quick confirmation.
Often people are looking for some sort of validation, even when it’s not obvious.
If they say “I can’t join you in the bar today, I have too much work to catch up on”, “K.” is not a good answer. Several aspects needs to be addressed, ideally:
- That’s too bad
- Next time
- Commentary on the state of work: Keep your head above water/your boss is such a jerk/we’ll make up for it after your deadline on Thursday/whatever, depending on the situation and your relationship.
Basically, it’s a way to show that you care about what they’re telling you. It can be a bit exhausting at times.
This is really helpful. I didn’t realize there were so many situations people were looking for validation. I just assumed when they said something like that it was just to quickly let me know and “K.” was all they needed.
To expand on this, consider that others cannot know what you’re thinking without you telling them.
You might feel “I’m looking forward to that and I think we will have fun together.”
But if you don’t tell someone that, they are left to guess for themselves. That uncertainty is very uncomfortable.
Neurotypicals learned to give and use clues to help navigate life and determine if they need to change their actions. But it’s a complicated balance. Most people don’t like being told “I’m not interested in that.” They’d rather hear “no thank you, maybe some other time.” But they’d also much rather hear “that sounds like fun!” than hearing “yeah sure”.
It can be very difficult to imagine what it’s like to have a different set of information than what you yourself know. Practice this skill! It will help you in lots of situations. Do your best to reduce uncertainty while considering how it might feel to hear the new information you’re sharing for the first time.
Good luck out there! <3
Ah, I think the hangup for me wasn’t so much not understanding that they had different info than me, but that they wanted the info I had. Moreover, that they might feel differently about things than I did, and they knew that, so I needed to make sure they knew how I felt.
When I see somebody just respond “K.” or “Alright” to an invitation to do something, that always made me happy enough to know that they were gonna be there because I figured if they didn’t want to, they’d have found an excuse to say no. I didn’t suspect that others might not just assume somebody was happy to be there the way I did. It’s helpful to know I need to clear up how I feel in some way for them to understand that I want to be there and enjoy their company.People can agree to go to an event but have very different feelings about doing it. Some people will be extremely stoked about going, some will be happy about it, some will be like meh its better than sitting at home, some people won’t want to go but decide to anyway because they want to be nice, some may really not want to go but decide to go anyway out of a sense of obligation. The particular words you reply with express your interest level to some degree. A plain “k” will be interpreted as a meh at best.
I see. I always just determined that by their reactions once they showed up, and figured all that mattered until then was whether they had any desire to at all, which was usually conveyed easily with single word responses. I didn’t realize other people wanted to know your feelings beforehand.
Yay, glad I could help! Yeah essentially if they’re asking something that might have an emotional aspect to it then they want to hear more than just k.
To make things more confusing, responding to an invitation to drinks with “k!” might be ok, depending on who’s asking and the context.
If it’s your roommate asking, and they’re doing it because there’s a sporting event or because drinks are an established ritual, it’d be fine. If it’s your boss, or a new (potential) friend or colleague, a possible romantic interest, or a close friend and it’s not something they usually do or incite you out for, then those situations have a lot more weight, and expect a more fulsome and engaged reply.
k.
ꓘ
Found the Australian
If it’s any consolation, my just-barely-maybe neurotypical ass uses proper punctuation and I’ve never had any issues. If anyone asks I just say it’s a thing I do.
Yeah, it seems not everyone has an issue with it. It might be more of an issue with me because I don’t often convey much emotion when I speak because I don’t know how, so I probably sound dead an uninterested when I combine that with perfect punctuation. Thinking about it, I also make very sparing use of exclamation points, so maybe I just seem so dead and formal that it makes people think I’m not really into the conversation.
I’m with you on the punctuation. The k bit I think is about showing you are putting effort in to understand and care, so something slightly longer like “k… I understand” or some extra acknowledgement that shows you understand and have taken the time to take it in helps. Personally, I have a big thing about miscommunication, so knowing people have understood me and listened actively is huge to me. “K.” does not express much of anything other than “I saw there was a message”, so I’d want to push to check that I’ve actually been heard.
Hope that makes sense.
The spelling thing bothers me a lot. I don’t want to catch bad habits of writing shitty just because it’s whatever seems trendy at the moment.
People used to give me shit for not using smileys, so I started adding :) everywhere in text messages. Then people told me I seem passive aggressive because I use :) instead of emojis.
Joke’s on them. I could never be arsed to use emojis outside of very specific contexts, and now gen Zs are making fun of them for looking like boomers with their dumb emoji use. Apparently I still come across as passive aggressive though.
I never use emojis either, except specific ones for specific contexts (I.E. the hug emoji when somebody’s having a really bad day.) People have pointed it out, but unlike other things people just view it as an interesting personality quirk of mine instead of off putting.
Your friend sounds impressively tedious.
It’s unfortunate I gave that impression, because she’s probably the nicest, most accepting person I know, even including other autistics. She was just trying to let me know because I’ve experienced significant psychological distress from my inability to connect to other people, so she’s trying to help me understand why, which was a recommendation by a psychiatrist by a psychiatrist I saw.
You are attempting too hard to be a part of a group of friends who do not consider you one, and are likely willing to drop you for the smallest reason that is socially agreed amongst them.
I’ve been replying to group texts like that for decades and my friends do not give a fuck. You should resume replying like how your friend is telling you puts people off and see who your real friends are.
Actually I’m fairly popular, but that just leads to me catching a lot of attention from strangers who’s first interaction with me, not knowing I’m autistic, is seeing somebody rude and dismissive.
If I could just explain to everybody immediately “hey, I’m autistic, I’m not being rude on purpose,” that’d be great. But most of my interactions with people are short messages like “What outfit are you wearing on your character” or a quick invitation to join them for something. Not a lot of opportunities to explain to them why I act the way I do.
When I do get the opportunity is usually when I end up making real friends, because they don’t see me as the dismissive girl who doesn’t want to talk to them anymore, but instead the autistic girl who just interacts a little differently.
Hell, some people keep trying over and over again to be my friend even when they think I am being rude and dismissive, they just don’t make any progress because they’ve misread my mood and assume I want them to go away.That seems like a big reaching conclusion based on very little data.
Friendship goes both ways and requires equal effort from both parties to make it work. Being rigid and unadapatable is a great way to whittle away your friends unnecessarily.
If people are affected by the simple reply of “K” by OP, something more fundamental is wrong with the relationship than adaptability.
K can give the impression that you don’t care and don’t want to be bothered with it. The effort in your response is expected to be proportional to the effort it took to write the message to you.
If someone write a long personal message to you, and all you responds is K, then it gives the impression that you might not even read the message. Why even bother next time?
Proper grammar in informal settings is a difficult one, but this is my theory:
It might give the impression of mismatch in vibes. There’s a difference in informal speak and formal speak, and participants in a conversation are expected to be in the same wavelength. An extreme example, but it’s like when everybody is dressed casually at a social gathering, but you decide to show up in a three piece suit.
The punctuation is total bullshit. 100% ignore them. Typing just K definitely is a bit informal for all but the most casual conversations with close relationships. I will 100% drop an👌👍 online when I encounter someone who just wants to argue or be mean to piss them off. Nothing enrages a gen z troll like 👌👍.
The punctuation thing has actually been pointed out to me on a couple occasions before. One of my exs thought it was weird and said it “gave the impression I’d be mad if other people’s grammar wasn’t perfect.” So apparently it does bother some people, but it’s probably more of a straw that broke the camel’s back situation, where I already speak so formally in the first place that it makes me look stuck up.
Communication is a two way street. It’s both about the message the sender is trying to convey, but also the way the receiver interprets it. As a (mostly) neurotypical thinker, this is even hard for many of us to get right.
An example for clarity is the response your getting in the comments to your friends comments. Various people are disagreeing and agreeing to different levels. Conversation is navigating the complicated dynamics to as the sender, sending your message in a way the receiver will get the impression you are trying to give, and as a receiver, trying to understand the intent of the message the sender is trying to show.
There aren’t many hard or fast rules. In different online communities, different styles and patterns can conotate different things. There are patterns and styles I use here on Lemmy for example, I would never use in a sports online community because they would be interpreted differently there.
My advice is don’t beat yourself up about it. If you’re not getting the type of interactions you’re expecting in a particular community, that might be the time to ask for feedback or see if your communication style is different than the local group there. But the ephemeral nature of these online conversations make it the perfect place to experiment and find a communication style that works for you and gets the response from others you are looking for.
I have pretty much the same comment as anyone else here (punctuation is fine, “K” is less fine) so I won’t repeat it but it reminds me of this sketch. People can’t read your inflection over texts…especially when it’s a one letter answer.
Imagine a parent saying “clean your room” and a passive aggressive teenager saying “K.” - that’s how it can be interpreted in some contexts.
Stop trying to be like them. They’ll never truly accept you. Many of them would prefer to destroy you. Their methods of communication are inefficient.
Fuck the NTs.
No.
Apologies for my post and respect for your appropriate response. Someone pissed in my Cheerios this morning.
Your post title grabbed my attention because I recently started watching Survivor for the first time (social event not really my pick). Anyway it’s fascinating to watch their behavior. These people are constantly talking about “reading” people. They’re always trying to inject meaning and intent where there is none. They are not as smart as they think they are, and they struggle with communication just as much as we do.
One thing I’ve noticed is NTs are constantly lying to each other then trying to “read between the lines.” Not so much malicious intent as keeping your cards close to your chest sort of thing. When someone comes up and just says what they mean, their minds explode. Many of them read into what you’re saying the worst possible interpretation. I’m still trying to figure this out.
I’ve seen a similar thing in court, where you think you’re trying to document facts and distill away all the emotion and speculation. WRONG! It seems to work like Survivor where 1 + 1 = 3.
