• Antergo@lemmy.ml
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    7 months ago

    AA much hate this might be getting, they’re offering discounts on a new product, and 16 years is a hell of a lifetime. Imagine having to support software written in c99 maybe even c89, with some homebrew UI full of bugs.

    • AnIndefiniteArticle@sh.itjust.works
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      7 months ago

      It’s a thermostat.

      I’m coming from a field where supporting software written in the 70s is the norm.

      Your argument is horribly short-sighted and wasteful.

      Only 16 years old is extremely recent software that ought to be easily maintained in any sane world.

      • Antergo@lemmy.ml
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        7 months ago

        I understand you may be from a field where supporting software from the 70s is required, however someone is probably paying big bucks for that software as well. Replacing the software you work on might cost millions, replacing a thermostat costs 300 usd.

        I would love to live in a world where software support lasts 70 years. But consumers don’t look at software support, so it’s not budgeted in the price, and thus doesn’t happen in the consumer space. Getting 16 years in a consumer device is long.

        In the field you’re working, stability, longevity, and robustenes is probably a requirement, not a nice to have.

    • raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      and 16 years is a hell of a lifetime

      Think about it like this: Even if the average home nowadays had only about 10 such devices (I am quite sure the average home has a lot more), that are needed for kitchen appliances, heating, warm water, window shutters, solar panels, etc to function - that means on average about once a year one of the essential functions in the house stops working unless you replace a part. Not because it’s broken, but because “SW support is discontinued”. Seriously, I want to smash everyones faces for those “early adopters” who think smart homes are great, and of course the companies who put software in every little component.

    • douglasg14b@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      I’m in my house right now with a perfectly working thermostat that’s 70 years old.

      And given the mechanism of action it will continue working in another 70 years.

      16 years for hardware used inside of homes is a ridiculously, absurdly, short lifetime. Even for a vehicle that would be pushing the edge of “too short”.

      That said 16-year-old software is not that old. If it’s built using sane language choices it should actually be functioning and modern today.

      • slimarev92@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        The article says that offline functions will continue to work. So they’ll just become regular thermostats.

      • bier@feddit.nl
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        7 months ago

        That is true, but my smart TV and smart scale both got something like 5 years of updates. Who buys a new scale every 5 years? My parents still have a scale from the 90s that works fine.

  • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
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    7 months ago

    I will never understand the appeal for cloud based home automation.

    All the spying aside, 16 years and your thermostat is no longer supported sounds ok until you think about how if you replace everything with cloud based equivalents you are always going to be having to replace things going out of service. I think its funny that you pay more for a device that lasts for lot less (How many thermostats have people seen fail?). I guess the companies are happy?

    • shinratdr@lemmy.ca
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      7 months ago

      The appeal is remote and centralized management, easier programming and more features. If that’s not worth it to you to replace your thermostat every 16 years, then nobody is forcing you to get one.

      But being able to change the temp from my phone from anywhere is worth it to me, as well as including it with other automations for all my connected devices. The appeal is honestly not hard to see, even if it’s not worth it for you personally.

      • M0oP0o@mander.xyz
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        7 months ago

        You know (I hope) that that functionality does not require a cloud based service right? You are describing features for things I was playing around with 20 years ago, what you need is a program or app, not a live service. The appeal of controlling your things from your phone is not new.

        • shinratdr@lemmy.ca
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          7 months ago

          No it doesn’t require it but it can make it easier. Especially for people that don’t have a robust and centralized way of controlling their smart devices, or only have 1-2 of them. I think the appeal is still obvious.

  • Everythingispenguins@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Honestly this makes me feel that not adopting IOT is still a good idea. Yep I am probably leaving some efficiency on the table, but I get more reliability in exchange.

    • d4f0@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      IOT can work without any cloud service. I have some things automated at home and everything works locally. To control it remotely I use a VPN.

      • Everythingispenguins@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Yeah I know that is a thing I might even be able to figure it out, but I am a bit of Luddite. By choice though, I have an okay understanding of tech but I don’t see the advantage in many cases. I much prefer the reliability and simplicity of legacy tech. Also I am much more likely to be able to fix it myself if needed.

        Before sears took a shit, I had to fix my mom’s range. It was built some time in the 90s. The manual has a trouble shooting guide. I was able to call the sears help line and buy just the part I need and get it mailed to me. Everything was designed to be fixed and there was legacy company support.

        Even with an IOT LAN. Repair of the hardware and often the firmware is not possible. You just have to buy a whole new expensive smart thing. I don’t like that.

        • d4f0@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          There are options. Some IOT things are even DIY with open specifications and open firmware, so you can build and repair them yourself. And a lot of times it’s the cheapest option, way way way cheaper than the usual IOT stuff, as most electronics used for IOT are dirt cheap.

    • FiveMacs@lemmy.ca
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      7 months ago

      Shocker…it’s not.

      I was told I needed to sell ecobee and nest when I worked in HVAC. I refused because of this and sold everyone white Rodgers because they can’t/won’t just shut down the thermostat screwing the end user. I saw this bullshit from day one.

    • Swordgeek@lemmy.ca
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      7 months ago

      Every one of my IT colleagues over about 35 is an absolute luddite. No IoT, no smart appliances, and a hardened firewall for everything that needs access. Location tracking and biometrics disabled on our phones, no cloud services, etc.

  • AlternateRoute@lemmy.ca
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    7 months ago

    As per the Ecobee notice this only impacts the two original models and they still function as regular thermostats still, they are just not providing any of the smart / cloud features anymore.

    Newer units support local homekit control, which can also be paired with open systems like Home Assistant for full local control for automation.

  • impure9435@kbin.run
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    7 months ago

    That’s ok if you ask me, considering that they will still continue to function as regular thermostats

    • Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      If you bought one of these because you have a heat pump and want to consider the outside temp, that service is now cut off. Not ideal.

    • LemmyBe@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      I disagree - definitely not OK by me, though likely legal. People bought this because they wanted and paid extra for an internet connected device, and a regular thermostat is not that. I mean, would you be OK if your TV manufacturer disabled the screen and streamed radio stations instead?

      • BassTurd@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        If my TV was 16 years old, and the manufacturer cut off the internet function to it, id be ok with that.

        These thermostats still work as thermostats, just without the smart features. Comparing that to turning a TV to a radio is disingenuous. 16 years is a long time, and there are security protocols amongst other things that go obsolete over time and can’t be updated at a certain point on legacy devices.

        • LemmyBe@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          I honestly can’t understand why anyone would be OK with it. I think our society has been getting trained to just accept whatever they throw at us. “Buying” something no longer means fully owning it, and I’m not OK with that, I just have to live with it.

          • businessfish@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            7 months ago

            i say something like this often in real life, but despite it being plainly observable in daily life other people still don’t agree.

            it’s on all scales too, or at least it feels like it. moving everything to streaming, always online, etc. want to play a competitive video game with your friends? give a corporation root-level access to your home computer. ads everywhere some greedy ass in a suit can think to stick them whether you pay or not, yet everyone complies like this is normal and i get singled out for caring about our rights as consumers.

            i love capitalism i love money

      • impure9435@kbin.run
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        7 months ago

        I didn’t say it was ideal, but it’s ok. And it’s definitely better when compared to other companies. Sure, in an ideal world they would have published the source code for their server ensuring that anyone could run their own instance at home. But we don’t live in an ideal world.

  • NounsAndWords@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    The company is offering affected users a 30 percent discount on a new Ecobee thermostat, valid for up to 15 thermostats.

    • TK420@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      The company should be giving away new ones, but that’s none of my business [Kermit meme]

    • toynbee@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      While I very strongly agree with your message, I have to say that this is one of the least fitting usernames I’ve ever seen.

  • AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space
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    7 months ago

    I wouldn’t be surprised if someone reverse-engineers the protocol and codes up their own replacement backend as a one-file Python script in a weekend.

    • IphtashuFitz@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      That truly depends on how secure Ecobee made it… I’ve seen some smart devices that use SSL (https) for all communication and do some sort of certificate authentication, making it virtually impossible to decrypt its communication protocol without a valid private key…

      Having said that, it’d be nice if Ecobee took the initiative and opened up these older devices, if they could do so without comprising the security of all their others.

      • jonne@infosec.pub
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        7 months ago

        In the last 16 years there’s been multiple SSL vulnerabilities, so if someone was motivated enough, they could probably hack it, especially considering they’d have physical access. You could probably even dump out the filesystem and overwrite certificates with your own.

        • AggressivelyPassive@feddit.de
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          7 months ago

          16 years ago was 2008 (which is shocking in itself, I’m old), SSL was seen as very very optional until 2013, when Snowden dropped his CIA/NSA leaks.

          I wouldn’t be surprised, is the security is “trust me, bro”.

      • AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space
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        7 months ago

        Is the firmware enclosed in a SOC with no way of reading/extracting it? If not, if all else fails, someone will extract it and dissect it with Ghidra or something, extracting whatever encryption keys are needed. If so, and there aren’t any documented side-channel attacks for reading the firmware from this SOC, if firmware updates exist, they too constitute an attack surface. (They probably would be encrypted, but how strongly?)

  • The Assman@sh.itjust.works
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    7 months ago

    Our smart thermostat has never been all that useful to me. The main thing is I don’t have to walk over to it to change the temp. But that convenience isn’t really worth the $150 I paid for it.

    • the_third@feddit.de
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      7 months ago

      The idea is that you can use peaks and drops in electricity pricing to optimize the usage and also to lower the house temperature when nobody is home and raise it again when an occupant enters maybe a 1km radius around the place again.

      The way you’re using it is just a gimmick, that’s true.

        • the_third@feddit.de
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          7 months ago

          No, my point is: using it as I described really saves money. The effective power price for my heat pump over the last year is at about 20% beneath market average because I use the thermal mass of my floors to store energy during low price hours. That needs to run automatically, controlling that by hand would be massively annoying or not possible at all when I’m not home.

          In addition, when one of our cars is started at one of our respective work carparks the hot water supply is checked and gets heated if it is below the necessary temperature for a shower. So either the day brought enough solar energy that it’s hot enough anyway or the water is heated very specifically for the after work shower for a person returning home. That prevents the heat pump from having to keep high temperatures all day in winter.

          The blinds follow the sun when the room temperatures pass 22°C and the solar panels deliver more than 2kW, because in that case it’s obviously sunny. Saves a lot of energy for the AC.

          All that saves way more than 100€/year, so remotely controllable fixtures stop being just a gadget when you start to think about the whole energy management in your house, is my point.

          • The Assman@sh.itjust.works
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            7 months ago

            using it as I described really saves money

            Assuming I:

            • own a heat pump ❌
            • own solar panels ❌
            • own a smart water heater of some kind? ❌
            • live somewhere that the temp changes enough that any of this matters ❌

            “No you idiot, you just have to spends thousands of dollars on equipment and then you can save $100 a year”

            Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Good for you that you’re saving money, but I’m just giving a personal anecdote here, not writing a thesis on home energy management.

            • baru@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              You don’t need solar panels. Could also just be dynamic energy pricing. Also do not need a water heater. Thermal mass could just be heating the place at a certain time. Don’t get the bit about temp changes, maybe you mean you never heat or cool your place?

    • sramder@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      They just killed my nest cameras, but the thermostat is still supported. I was planning on replacing it with an ecobee this year just because API access is kind of a pain but this is giving me some second thoughts.

      • laurelraven@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        7 months ago

        Killed, as in the thing you paid for is basically worthless now?

        That’s not just planned obsolescence, it’s forced obsolescence

  • Snapz@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    Why do we allow this? Companies that contribute to operate should be severely penalized if they don’t A)) continue to support legacy products B)) offer FULL replacement if servers/apps shutdown or C)) open source EVERYTHING is they are going to try to kill a device.

  • 𝒍𝒆𝒎𝒂𝒏𝒏@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    7 months ago

    16 years old? That thermostat has sure had a run, must have been designed pretty well to last this long without some electronic failure.

    Assuming it’s cloud connected, anyone aware whether it got updates for the newer versions of TLS and root certificates? As an example I’m aware quite a lot of android and similar devices from that era have expired certificates now, and outdated/vulnerable SSL libraries…

    Edit: Edit example

    • TimeSquirrel@kbin.social
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      7 months ago

      16 years old? That thermostat has sure had a run

      I have game consoles that are more than twice that old and still play reliably. Apple really skewed our idea of lifespans for electronics, didn’t they? It’s a thermostat, they should be designed to install and forget for the next half-century. It’s a core part of a house, like the plumbing and breaker box.

      • borari@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        7 months ago

        Ah yes. Apple, the company with the longest support windows for secure patches of any phone/tablet manufacturer, are definitely the ones skewing our ideas on the lifespan of electronics.

        • TimeSquirrel@kbin.social
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          7 months ago

          Why is it so common for Apple users to replace their devices every 1-2 years then? Theres a reason it’s a meme. Regardless of what Apple does with old hardware, they promote this mentality of always needing the next new shiny thing. They’re the pioneers of that.

          I’m still on a rooted Samsung from 2017. I know several people who went through 3 iPhones in that time.

      • paraphrand@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Didn’t the pace of change influence our perception more than anything else?

        Don’t old computers on old operating systems work as well as they did when support was dropped? Much like your example of consoles?

        The rate of software gobbling up newly available resources seems to a big reason people feel the need to move on. But I think that is starting to flatten out as the pace of processor improvements slows.

        The bloat on the web is a huge burden on older devices too. Especially for your average person.

        The bloat on the web and in native software (and in non-native software that is just another copy of Chrome posing as native software) comes from our newly available resources allowing for “lazy” development practices that prioritize cross platform development and other factors over writing efficient native software for each platform.

        There are a lot of factors involved in the rate of device turnover. I don’t think any one factor is consistently forcing people to upgrade hardware. It’s a collective situation.

        I use my desktop computers, for work, for nearly 10 years past their introduction date before replacing them. (Three more to go for my current machine). For my gaming computer, I swap a major part every 5-6 years.

        And to reiterate, I think this rate of change is slowing down. At least for raw processing power and how long it is relevant. The rate of change over the course of personal computing has been massive. And it’s just starting to slow down.

    • jonne@infosec.pub
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      7 months ago

      For a thermostat that’s built into a house, 16 years doesn’t seem long enough, tbh. A ‘dumb’ thermostat can easily be in use for 30+ years before anyone would even consider replacing it.

      But yeah, as you said, if it’s connected to the internet you have to worry about software patches, certificates, etc.

  • Valmond@lemmy.world
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    7 months ago

    This is why I’m all in for non-“smart crap”, I don’t even have inductive heating stove top because they never have basic knobs.

    Long clicking on [3] then + + + + + + to boil your f eggs? No thanks.

    • the_third@feddit.de
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      7 months ago

      My mom has an induction stove that has knobs.

      Definitely a thing, Miele even has a device filter for that feature.

    • Evotech@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      It’s just on and then hold b for boost now. It automatically detects which slot you have placed your pan on and selects that for you. But I get your point…

      Induction is great 👍

    • ShieldsUp@startrek.website
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      7 months ago

      I just bought one of these! First press on, then wait a second for the pan to be detected, then select the burner to turn on, then + which sets it to 5/10, then press + 5 more times for full power! The one with knobs was like double price…but hey the pan heats up quick while you are cursing at it.

        • ShieldsUp@startrek.website
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          7 months ago

          It will light up an indicator for each pan detected, so if 2 pans are on the stove you still need to activate the one you want. Assuming you don’t want both on.

      • baru@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        I just bought one of these!

        There weren’t any better options?

        Did you try e.g. long pressing buttons, pressing -, or anything?

        I had the +/- buttons ages ago (cheap alternative when renting). Never again.

    • baru@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Long clicking on [3] then + + + + + + to boil your f eggs?

      A lot of them have a terrible UI. But that’s far from all of them. Enough have sliders. Sometimes one with a pan detection. Sometimes a slider per area.

  • umbrella@lemmy.ml
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    7 months ago

    they made it online and dont want to bother actually supporting it…

    so we replacing thermostats every decade and a half now?

  • the_third@feddit.de
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    7 months ago

    Why is nobody here asking for a local API? Are we as techies just accepting that this NEEDS a server component run by the manufacturer?

    • werefreeatlast@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Yeah. The server and software should be open source and API available. That way we actually own the system and don’t have to just toss it out if someone goes out of business.

      Fucking ulock for example suddenly wants me to create an account and sign in to their website to use my front door lock! What the fuck is that! We need consumer protections for this sort of shit. I didn’t sign up to giving away when I come in and when I go out of my house! WTF to the max!

    • jkrtn@lemmy.ml
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      7 months ago

      I don’t understand the mindset of people who buy these things in the first place. Occasionally there’s an article like, “guy’s entire house suddenly inoperable after Amazon ban,” people just don’t think that will happen to them? It is local control on a standardized protocol or nothing for me.

    • Toribor@corndog.social
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      7 months ago

      The newer Ecobee’s can run entirely locally through their homekit integration. I tie mine into home assistant and use it that way. I would never have bought the device if that wasn’t available.

      If this old version doesn’t have that available then I’m assuming people purchased it knowing that it was reliant on cloud services. It would be nice if they offered customers options besides just letting the device turn into e-waste but you can understand why they don’t want to burn development hours on a device that’s a decade and a half old.

      Just another reason to never buy devices that can’t function without a cloud service.

    • masterspace@lemmy.ca
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      7 months ago

      Probably because they do still have a local API, will maintain wifi support, and can still be used with HomeAssistant or whatever other local home automation server you have.

      • FiveMacs@lemmy.ca
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        7 months ago

        Furnaces last 20-30 years…

        Zero excuse. Hell I know people with a 30 year old tstat.

        It’s a switch, on/off on temp. Everything else is fancy crap that they can shut off forcing you to buy again.