How would this be enforced?
Four ways:
1: It’s not.
2: The pump charges a minimum of 4 gallons.
3: The pump dispenses at least four gallons, and won’t shut off before then.
4: A cop watches every time a person fills up.Personally, #3 would be the most fun, from a distance.
Buying E10 fuel (a mixture that contains 10 percent ethanol) from a hose that also supplies E15 fuel (a mixture that contains 15 percent ethanol) must buy at least four gallons to protect customers following behind. Ethanol is hard on engines and less efficient than regular gasoline. E15 can even cause engine failure in smaller or older engines. So if you’re using a blender pump to buy E10 that sells both E15 and E10, the residual amount of E15 left in the hose from the previous customer could cause significant damage to those smaller and older engines—unless you purchase at least 4 gallons.
This seems like it’s flipped around backwards. The picture says you have to pump more than 4 gallons if you are getting E15, but the explanation seems to explain why someone pumping E10 would want to pump more than 4 gallons.
I bet the real reason is that someone could pump a couple of gallons of cheaper E15, knowing they’d actually receive E10, leaving the next person to actually get that gas.
Hold the fuck up.
Customer A buys 10 gallons of E15.
Customer B buys 1 gallon of E10 from the same pump.
Customer C buys 1 gallon of E10 from the same pump and puts it in his chainsaw. If that gallon ruins Customer C’s chainsaw, it’s legally Customer B’s fault? What the fuck?
Forcing B to buy more gas than he might want, to protect the customer after him, because of the customer that came before him, is some horseshit.
Why is it bad to have rules which prevent harm to everyone?
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. You ever see a 2oz bottle of Coke?
That doesn’t prevent harm to everyone it just allows gas stations to use a single pump and shift the liability onto consumers.
If you can’t see the practicality, that’s on you.
Boo. If you’re gonna troll, at least make it interesting.
That’s a pretty stupid comparison. These aren’t prepackaged containers, and that’s a pretty key part of the terrible point you were trying to make.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything.
In the given example, is the gas station not forcing Customer B to purchase more gas than they may want or need? What if I have a chainsaw with a 1 gallon fuel tank? Now I need to not only buy more gas than I can use, but a container to safely store it in. (It’s also illegal to dispense gasoline to/from an unauthorized container!) Now if I use my chainsaw once or twice a year, I also get to dump out that extra gasoline because it’s gone bad by the time I need to use it again.
Do you have an ethanol chainsaw? Maybe an ethanol weed whacker? Got some links to these small ethanol motors?
E10 and E15 mostly aren’t ethanol. They’re 90% and 85%, respectively, gasoline, with the rest being ethanol.
Go on.
The gas companies bought a law to exempt themselves from liability.
Source?
This fucking law right here.
What, again?
Maybe these climate change purveyors should be forced to separate E10 and E15 dispensers.
Legally customers C fault. He needed to buy 4 gallons and fucked himself.
Ok, that makes sense, but why a federal law?
Why force companies to buy pumps that blend when you can force all liability onto the customer?
Gas stations can get away buying cheap blending pumps and if it breaks someone’s older car just shrug and say it must have been the previous customer’s fault, we’re not liable.
“We don’t care about service and quality. Oh, and we make it be your problem.”
It’s probably administrative law associated with DOT regulations. So yes it is a law but not quite in the same way you think of when Congress passes a law. Instead Congress passed a law that said DOT we give this agency the power to regulate these specific things. Go create a working committee and create some regulation. Administrative law is a bit more like civil law than criminal law. In general violation is just fine and they are handled by administrative law courts. Part of what makes them so different is they do not fall under the justice department they are contained within whichever agency has jurisdiction over that area of regulation. They’ve been affirmed to be functionally the same as federal courts, but can only sanction the guilty party in the exact manner the regulation says. Otherwise when the case is concluded and a party is found guilty is then referred to a federal court for sanctions.
I think it has to do with how it’s dispensed. If the person before you bought regular fuel, the hose still might have residual fuel from the other kind, meaning you could end up with a different ethanol level than expected. That’s a fire hazard. 4 gallons is probably overkill but better safe than sorry.
Has that always been the law and I just never noticed a sticker like that before?
Not sure how long it’s been a law but not a ton of places sell E15. I only ever see it on road trips personally.
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol-e15
E15 is available in 31 states at just over 3,000 stations. E10 remains the limit for passenger vehicles older than model year 2001 and for other non-road and small engines and vehicles that use gasoline, such as lawn mowers, motorcycles, and boats.
dispensing less may violate federal law
Yeah, if the theories about fuel from previous customer still residing in the hose impacting next customers % is true, I’d put responsibility on the gas station. They chose not to have a pump dedicated to E15.
“May” violate law, doesn’t say which law or who is actually violating it. I would ignore and carry on as normal. This feels like one of those " the average Americans commits three felonies a day" things because our system of laws is so archaic and inflexible.
archaic and inflexible.
No, it’s working precisely as intended. There are so many layers of byzantine laws and ordinances in the US on multiple levels – federal, state, county, municipal – that anyone who really wants to is guaranteed to be able to find something to harass and/or arrest you for, no matter what. Probable cause can be rendered meaningless by making a humongous array of trivial things technically illegal.
Does your window tint meet the specific requirements for this county? Is your stereo 0.01dB louder than our municipal maximum? Are your license plate and registration sticker acceptably clean? Do your tires have the correct tread depth? Do you have a radar detector installed? Do you have an air freshener hanging from your rearview? Are you carrying your written prescription around with your pills? Is your pocketknife blade too long? Do your cigarettes have the wrong state’s tax stamp on them? Did you remember to sign the back of your registration card? Whoopsie doodle, this state passed a law mandating minimum headlight height from the road, too bad your car left the factory out of compliance. Could you step out of the vehicle for me, sir?
Etc., etc., etc.
While I agree with your premise, I don’t like that your list is what came to mind when you thought of unnecessary laws. Those are some of the best laws we have. It sucks being hypersensory and trying to live a real life, and literally 25% of the population is. With hyposensory people (another 25% of the population) just acting like we are all whiners for experiencing every sense as much as 4x as strongly as they do. “No one could possibly be that annoyed by something that barely affects me, they are just too sensitive”. Well, yes. Technically that is the problem, but our sensitivity is physical and not by choice.
While I see your point, given the devastating effects leaded gasoline has had on entire generations, perhaps fuel is a good thing to regulate.
That’s not the topic of discussion though. They’re trying to put responsibility on clueless consumers when it’s the gas stations that pump different fuels through the same hoses.
If you want to talk leaded gasoline, this would be like hammering people who buy it and ignoring that gas stations are selling it.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn talked about exactly that in the USSR in Gulag Archipelago.
He said that in the entire time he was in the gulags, he never met one single person who hadn’t been legitimately tried and convicted of an actual crime. And the key was exactly what you describe - the Soviet laws were so extensive and byzantine that whenever any official wanted to disappear somebody, all they had to do was investigate them enough to figure out what laws they’d inevitably broken, then try them for that.
That’s how authorotarian scumbags implement a police state while maintaining a superficial appearance of justice and the rule of law.
And it’s guaranteed that American authoritarian scumbags know that.
Fuck you if you own a motorcycle, I guess.
My RV200’s tank only holds 1.7 gallons, and my CH50 will only take one. I guess I’m meant to just dispense the remaining three gallons onto the ground, then…?
Ethanol fucks up the rubber in my 1980s Suzuki carburetor. I wish I could find an alternative.
I feel you. E10 is the lowest content we can get anywhere around me. I have to ride about 90 miles to get to the nearest station with non-ethanol fuel.
There is Sta-Bil 360 which allegedly mitigates the effects of ethanol at least in storage. I always use it in my bikes overwinter, and I haven’t had any issues… yet.
Several stations around me have removed their mid grade option to sell E85 in that pump slot instead. You can have E10 regular, E10 premium, E85, or fuck off. I have seen a few shiny new stations on the interstate that only offer E15, which seems to happen most often out in corn country. I get that there’s only so much oil in the ground, but you’re right – there has to be a better way. It’s just probably not as cheap…
From morocyclistonline.com:
Running your bike on E15 may cause your engine to run hot and could possibly damage your bike’s catalytic convertor as well as cause crud buildup on your valves and pistons.
Yeah and which one of those are you putting ethanol in?
Which is it, up to 15% or up to 10% ethanol?
It’s 10% in the winter and 15% in the summer (at least that’s the legal limit), although I think that’s changing. So I guess they just said what the hell and put on both stickers?
Where I live you can get zero percent and even leaded gasoline…
Weve known Lead was poisonous since the romans and we decided to add a derivative of it to our fuel on a massive scale. We sure are smart.
The guy who invented leaded gasoline also invented CFCs, the refrigerants that punched a hole in the ozone layer.
And invented a bed with a bunch of wires and pullies for people who are crippled (after he got polio). Oh a good idea from the worst man ever you might think, NOPE this invention was also deadly and after a malfunction killed him.
Woah. I didn’t know leaded gasoline was still available anywhere.
Woah. I didn’t know leaded gasoline was still available anywhere.
General Aviation fuel (think propeller planes) use Avgas still uses tetraethyl lead, which is “leaded gasoline”.
So there’s a shit load of caveats. One there’s only a few places i know in the state that sell it. It’s supposedly only for small engine purposes, and it’s illegal to pump into a car. There’s daily limits imposed by the gas station and weekly and yearly limits imposed by the state I think, but I never looked them up.
I think there might be two options to the right (yellow stickers) indicating eg 95E15 and 98E10
I got curious so I duckduckgo’d that shit.
Thank you for sharing the link. Here’s the relevant bit from the article:
Most gas stations don’t want to install new tanks just for E15. Instead, they’re installing blender pumps, which mix the ethanol and gasoline together in the right proportion depending on which one you want. But there’s a problem: if you pump E15 into your car, about a third of a gallon remains in the fueling hose when you’re done. If someone comes along, switches to E10, and buys a single gallon for their lawnmower, they’ll get a third of a gallon of E15 and two-thirds of a gallon of E10. That comes to about 11.7% ethanol, and that might be enough to set your lawnmower on fire.
So the EPA produced a new rule: if you sell E15, you have to require your customers to buy at least four gallons of gas regardless of what blend they’re buying. That’s a big enough purchase that the residual fuel in the hose is too small to matter
So… what are they gonna do if you don’t fuel enough? Is it just up to God to not let someone else fuck up their equipment after you’ve fueled up?
Sounds like the warning label is about all they will do. Guess it’s one of those situations where if you ignore the label or don’t read it you might be penalized?
I totally won’t use this knowledge to try to fuck with Sheetz.
and that might be enough to set your lawnmower on fire.
Ethanol burns hotter?
No. It does degrade some fuel system components on fuel systems not made for it.
It also gums the fuck out of fuel injectors, and you’ll notice a drop in gas mileage Dependant on the blend. Its pretty awful shit. I don’t know why the hell it exists.
I think it exists because people have an unreasonable price sensitivity when buying gas. They will drive miles out of their way to save a nickel a gallon. I also think they don’t really have a good understanding of mpg factors. I was told by one guy purchasing it that he gets better mileage on it(which we know isn’t true)
Except the warning is on the e15 and not the standard gas.
So it doesn’t matter if I buy 1, 2, 20 gallons of e15… As an e15 buyer I get the chance that it’s more gas than ethanol.
The warning of 4 gallons needs to be applied to the non-ethanol blend gasolines, as those are the ones at risk!
It either violates federal law or it doesn’t. May is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Not to mention there are signs for both up to 10% and up to 15%…
If the purpose of the warning is to make sure people get the blend they want then just say that.
Walking around may violate federal law. Depends on where.
This… Why is this sign ambiguous? To avoid improper fuel blends, dispense 4 gallons minimum, federal law.
Dont use ethanol fuel. It may damage your car, and make your car weaker.
I don’t know why you think I have a choice in the matter.
There’s actually a really good explanation for this.
This is a mixing pump. It mixes ethanol into the fuel. Because the mixing happens before the part of the pump that measures how much is being dispensed, you need at least a few gallons to fully flush things out and get somewhere close to what you’re actually buying.
Nobody is going to come arrest you if you buy 2 gallons of gas. But the gas you get me not be the mix you wanted.
Fucking 15% ethanol now? So they basically just raised the price of gasoline 5%, and reduced the fuel efficiency of everyone’s vehicle, without so much as a peep. Where is this?
I would expect it to also be less expensive but they don’t show us that information.
I personally wouldn’t mind if my fuel mileage goes down if the cost is also proportionally lower.
Also, ethanol has a energy density of roughly 2/3 that of gasoline, so yes e85 would have 5% less energy than gasoline with no ethanol, not e10, which is what I see as the listed price in most places. When doing a price comparison, it should be against e0, not e10 if you are expecting a 5% energy difference.
Where I have purchased it it has been cheaper.
Would you prefer they ban driving? we simply cannot keep going as we are, things have to change and you can either change your habits alongside it, accept that you have to pay more, or whine as you keep pumping poison into the air and contribute to your own early death from climate change.
E15 is a different blend of fuel, it’s not at all gas pumps and regular 87/89/91 octane level fuel is still available (because not all cars can use E15 like the sticker says). Sheetz stations sell it in my area around Raleigh, NC.
What an appropriately named station.
Ethanol is wildy bad for the environment and is raising the cost of food.
I read somewhere awhile back that it takes something like 3 gallons of gasoline (through running farm equipment and transportation) to make 4 gallons of ethanol. That coupled with ethanol being less efficient that gasoline and causes more wear and rear on vehicles probably means that if we ditched it altogether we’d probably the same carbon emissions wise.
Also, for every acre of corn raised to go into ethanol, that’s one acre not going into feed corn or other food crops so we’re effectively raising the cost of food via limiting supply and competition.
The only people that benefit are farmers that recieve substantial subsidies to grow it and government personnel who administer said subsidies and elected officials that campaign on taking money from you the tax payer and funneling it into these programs.
The cost to all of us is diffused, probably no more than a few tens of dollars taken from us via taxes so nobody is gonna go stand up to these people and demand that we end this subsidy. The benefit to them is very focused and large so they have every interest to keep the cash flowing their way. Every interest to take money from all classes of people but most damaging to the poorest of people since those dollars mean more to them than richer peoples.
This wildest part is that you who is reading this right now is probably outraged that this program is in place but the even crazier part is that you can substitute this with practically any and all industries and they are all doing the exact same thing but for the things that you agree with, are perfectly fine with keeping those subsidies flowing. After all, it’s only the other people that are greedy. The only real solution is to completely end all federal subsidies but I’m sure you’ll disagree and say that XYZ is necessary because it’s your special interest.
Yeah, back in the nineties I was super hyped on ethanol, and then I found out how bad it really is. It was disappointing :(
You’re not wrong about the whole corn subsidy switch to E85 being terrible. It was purely about getting Midwest votes specifically winning Iowa in the primaries. It is worth noting though that E10/15 is not intended as a replacement for gasoline like E85 is. The ethanol in E10/15 is both fuel oxidizer and an anti knock agent. So it reduces tailpipe emissions by helping make a more complete burn and increases the octane of gasoline by two or three points meaning the gasoline has to be less refined.
Ethanol replaced MTBE, it is not clear how and at what level MTBE is toxic. But it is extremely water-soluble and has the ability to leak out of sealed underground tanks. This of course led to very easy contamination of groundwater and aquifers with MTBE. Which was probably a bad thing.
For anyone his care MTBE replaced Tetraethyllead. And if I have to explain why lead is bad to anyone they’ve had too much lead exposure.
does this mean 2001+ OR flex fuel? or 2001+ AND flex fuel?
the former wouldn’t make sense as that doesn’t really exist, but if it were the latter then that’s a really ambiguous warning.
If your vehicle was made after 2001 OR specifically labeled as flex fuel
Because commies.
These signs also exist in the Netherlands, and the reason is because pumps are calibrated to a certain accuracy (say, 1%, for convenience).
But in the real world, you can get a lot of variation from temperature, to how long it’s been since a pump was used, to how full the underground tank is. They all made a difference, mostly at the start and end of pumping.
So you get a law in percentages, and you get a real world deviation in volume. Obviously, if your pump is short 50ml on 1 liter, you’re off by 5% and breaking the law. But of you slap a sticker on, telling everyone they “must” get 5 liters, you’re off 50ml on 5L, a perfect 1% deviation and entirely within the limit.
But 8 gallon is BIG volume, damn.
What happens if you try to fuel a vehicle with a tank smaller than 5 gallons, for example a typical small motorbike?
Just spray the rest on your car, the ground, or whatever. It’s like having fun with the water hose!
Free hotdog.
Zoolander style
If you do this though, don’t smoke. There is always a small chance of a freak gasoline fight accident.
I saw a guy filling a Home Depot bucket at the Arco earlier today. Now I’m wondering if it’s because of something like this.
In Canada ours have a sticker that says the amounts are calibrated to a certain temperature (15C I think), so I assumed it took that into account. I try not to think about how much it costs so didn’t over analyze it.
