Hopefully none. Cannabis is really bad for your health and should NOT be used for “fun”:
Marijuana causes an “increased risk of stroke, heart disease, and other vascular diseases.” (CDC, 2020-a)
“Smoke from marijuana has many of the same toxins, irritants, and carcinogens (cancer-causing chemicals) as tobacco smoke.” (CDC, 2020-b)
“People who use marijuana are more likely to develop […] long-lasting mental disorders, including schizophrenia (a type of mental illness where people might see or hear things that are not really there).” (CDC, 2020-c)
There’s thousands of activities with less adverse effects than doing drugs. PLEASE get a hobby other than triyng to fry your brain with chemicals.
Marijuana causes an “increased risk of stroke, heart disease, and other vascular diseases.” (CDC, 2020-a)
Only when smoked, from the link you provided:
It is hard to separate the effects of marijuana chemicals on the cardiovascular system from those caused by the irritants and other chemicals that are present in the smoke. More research is needed to understand the full impact of marijuana use on the cardiovascular system to determine if marijuana use leads to higher risk of death.
So this is only a health issue if smoked, marijuana can be consumed in other ways, therefore this point is moot. Smoking oregano probably causes the same side effect, I doubt you’re in favor of banning oregano.
“Smoke from marijuana has many of the same toxins, irritants, and carcinogens (cancer-causing chemicals) as tobacco smoke.” (CDC, 2020-b)
So do cars, do you think we should ban cars? In fact almost all smokes contain carcinogenics, should we also ban coal? Power plants?
“People who use marijuana are more likely to develop […] long-lasting mental disorders, including schizophrenia (a type of mental illness where people might see or hear things that are not really there).” (CDC, 2020-c)
Correlation does not imply causation, have you read the actual studies? All of them concur that it’s possible that people with schizophrenia are more likely to use marijuana. And a lot of the meta-analysis point to the fact that no study has normalized for family history which is the largest predictor for schizophrenia. It’s actually kind of funny, a study finds a possible correlation, other study lists that and another one and claims the fact that two different studies found correlation implies a stronger link, another meta-study links that and other similar and claims that because so many have found a strong link it implies causation, if you go back the 4 or 5 levels from the study you publish to the ones that actually studied people you’ll notice that none of them claim causation.
Only when smoked
marijuana can be consumed in other ways
That’s good to know. At least the vascular diseases can be avoided when smoking pot. That does nothing for the carcinogens though.
So do cars, do you think we should ban cars? In fact almost all smokes contain carcinogenics, should we also ban coal? Power plants?
Yes. They must eventually be replaced with environmentally friendlier alternatives. Carcinogens are unacceptable and should never be willingly ingested just for fun.
All of them concur that …
Citation needed. Which specific articles are you referring to when you say “All of them”? Call me crazy, but I have a hutch you did not read every single cannabis study that’s ever been written.
… a lot of the meta-analysis point to …
Citation needed. Which meta-analysis? Written by whom? When?
none of them claim causation.
Citation needed. Which specific articles are you referring to when you say “none of them”? Call me crazy, but I have a hutch you did not read every single cannabis study that’s ever been written.
I’m quoting the articles you provided, have you even read them?
From the link you sent:
including schizophrenia (a type of mental illness where people might see or hear things that are not really there).2
And the 2 reference is:
Volkow ND, Swanson JM, Evins AE, et al. Effects of cannabis use on human behavior, including cognition, motivation, and psychosis: a review. JAMA Psychiatry. 2016;73(3):292-297.
On that article it reads:
The link between cannabis use and schizophre-nia could stem from direct causality, gene-environment interac-tions,sharedetiology,orself-medicationforpremorbidsymptoms,although some researchers have suggested that only the first 3 hy-potheses remain open questions.48-50
References 48-50 are:
Ferraro L, Russo M, O’Connor J, et al. Cannabisusers have higher premorbid IQ than other patientswith first onset psychosis.Schizophr Res. 2013;150(1):129-135.
Large M, Sharma S, Compton MT, Slade T,Nielssen O. Cannabis use and earlier onset ofpsychosis: a systematic meta-analysis.Arch GenPsychiatry. 2011;68(6):555-561.
Miettunen J, Törmänen S, Murray GK, et al.Association of cannabis use with prodromalsymptoms of psychosis in adolescence.Br JPsychiatry. 2008;192(6):470-471.
Of those only 49 refers to psychosis, from that article:
Perhaps most importantly, few studies explicitly state whether the substance was being used prior to the onset of psychosis, which makes it difficult to draw causal inferences from a reported association.
Also from that paper:
patients with schizophrenia are more likely to use substances than members of the wider community.
Long story short the study agrees that people with schizophrenia are more likely to use drugs, and that the studies it references don’t take into consideration what came first. Long story short the links you provided are proof that people with schizophrenia like cannabis, not that cannabis causes it.
Your turn to provide studies that claim what you say that they claim, because the ones you listed disagree with you, they’re just being misquoted in several layers.
Long story short the links you provided are proof that people with schizophrenia like cannabis, not that cannabis causes it.
That’s your personal conclusion, not the conclusion of the paper that the CDC cites.
Cannabis use preceded psychosis in these studies:
Arseneault L, Cannon M, Poulton R, Murray R, Caspi A, Moffitt TE. Cannabis use in adolescence and risk for adult psychosis: longitudinal prospective study. BMJ. 2002;325(7374):1212-1213.
Zammit S, Allebeck P, Andreasson S, Lundberg I, Lewis G. Self reported cannabis use as a risk factor for schizophrenia in Swedish conscripts of 1969: historical cohort study. BMJ. 2002;325(7374):1199.
Weiser M, Knobler HY, Noy S, Kaplan Z. Clinical characteristics of adolescents later hospitalized for schizophrenia. Am J Med Genet. 2002;114(8):949-955.
Also:
“Controlling for familial risk in one large epidemiological study considerably attenuated but did not completely eliminate the association of cannabis use with schizophrenia, with odds ratios of 3.3 and 1.6 with 3-year and 7-year temporal delays, respectively.” (Volkow ND, Swanson JM, Evins AE, et al. 2016)
The study in question:
Giordano GN, Ohlsson H, Sundquist K, Sundquist J, Kendler KS. The association between cannabis abuse and subsequent schizophrenia: a Swedish national co-relative control study. Psychol Med. 2015;45(2):407-414.
You can’t cherry-pick the sections of the article that benefit your personal opinions and simply ignore the rest. Its clear that you did not read these articles with objectivity in mind, and for that reason I will no longer respond to you. Best of luck, hopefully you can overcome your rudeness and lack of objectivity some day.
References
Volkow ND, Swanson JM, Evins AE, et al. Effects of cannabis use on human behavior, including cognition, motivation, and psychosis: a review. JAMA Psychiatry. 2016;73(3):292-297.
No, initially I told you what they said, but since you didn’t believed me (or read them yourself) I had to quote them verbatim.
Yes I’m rude, that’s because you’re being obnoxious control freak that wants to prevent people from using one of the safest recreational drugs out there on the off possibly that a small number of people with predisposition to schizophrenia might abuse of this substance and make their condition appear earlier than it would otherwise. And I’m presumptuous because when I quote a scientific paper I read it first, and if I smell bullshit I read the thing they’re quoting, I’ve written enough papers myself and been around academia long enough to know how these meta-analysis get written.
Again, did you read the study you just quoted? Because you’re quoting the meta-analysis of it, not the study itself, here’s what that study actually concludes:
population-based estimates of cannabis-schizophrenia co-morbidity substantially overestimate their causal association. Predictions of the cases of schizophrenia that might be prevented by reduced cannabis consumption based on population associations are therefore likely to be considerably overestimated.
Also that study analyzed people with a schizophrenia diagnostic, and looked at previous arrests for drug related crimes to classify who used Marijuana, which is a very bad methodology for several reasons:
Impulsiveness is a clinical feature of schizophrenia. Therefore it’s entirely possible that schizophrenics are simply most likely to get arrested, that would cause the same results observed.
Risk for schizophrenia is larger between close relatives, but even between monozygotic twins it’s only 40%, so it’s entirely possible that with such a small group as in that research it’s just coincidence.
I’m not cherry-picking, I’m pointing failures in their methodologies, and misquotes from one paper to the one that’s analyzing it, to show you how “A drug related rap sheet together with family history is a predictor for schizophrenia” becomes “Marijuana causes schizophrenia”.
Edit: also forgot to quote this, it’s not just my opinion z the paper itself admits this is a possibility:
Second, we identified CA from medical and legal records, using ICD and conviction codes to capture prevalence within our study population. Although this method has the important advantage of not requiring accurate respondent recall and self-reporting, the risk for misclassification bias remains. Furthermore, we have assumed that those admitted to hospital or convicted for cannabis use represented a subsample of heavy cannabis users, which are labeled ‘cannabis abusers’ in this study (i.e. it is likely that there were many more people who used/abused cannabis than those who were registered as CA). Therefore, some risk remains that CA identification in the current sample may be contaminated by evidence of prodromal schizophrenia. Because our subjects experienced adverse medical or legal consequences of their cannabis use, our results are not directly comparable to studies that examine cannabis use or even heavy cannabis use
And finally, I don’t care if you answer or not, I’m not answering to you, I expect you read those papers and got to some conclusion. I’m answering so that other people who’re just going to read the title and your response know that that’s not exactly what the paper says, as usual people do a very shallow approximation of what the paper actually says.
Yes. Their production should be illegal and punished with fines and jailtime. Their recreational use should be punished with fines (take away the money they would’ve used to buy more substances) and forced rehab, ie. Classes on how to stop relying on those drugs.
Right, nothing more totalitarian than wanting to save people’s lives. Let’s allow everyone to do everything that makes them feel good, consequences be damned. What’s the worst that could happen?
Like honest question: Do you think we should ban every activity that is as risky as consuming marijuana? If not, why not? Why marijuana and not everything else.
If we’re banning marijuana to save lives because it’s too risky we should be banning driving a car, and climbing a ladder, and hundred other common everyday activities that are more likely to kill you then smoking pot.
You’re not wrong, there are health risks to weed. But there’s risks with literally everything, and weed is really far down on the list of most risky activities.
Going up a ladder and using a car fulfill a practical purpose, and there are numerous safety precautions you can take to minimize the potential risk of an injury. On the contrary, recreational cannabis is explicitly done for fun, and there isn’t really a “risk-safe” way of developing schizophrenia due to substance abuse lmao
Do you think we should ban every activity that is as risky as consuming marijuana? If not, why not? Why marijuana and not everything else.
Your use of the word “risky” implies that there’s a consequence-free way of doing cannabis. There is not. You will always suffer adverse health effects by doing marijuana.
And to answer your question, no. Because security precautions can be taken to do other fun activities safely. There are no sufficient precautions which would allow you to do marijuana 100% safely.
your hope that people are unable to make their own choices.
My only hope is to stop people from destroying their physical and mental just for some short-term feel-good chemicals.
Alcohol, caffeine and tobacco should also be banned, but their capitalist industry is too big at this point to be stopped. Let’s not add another monopoly to the list of legal-drugs
The way the US went about banning alcohol was extremely poorly implemented, with ignorant and insensitive policies. With the psychology knowledge we have nowadays, I do believe it could be done in an effectively manner.
I believe that it’s recreational use should be illegal, not that it should be punished with jailtime. The best “punishment” for that “crime” is forced rehab, not jailtime.
Well, it takes away the money they would’ve used to buy more substances. Also its not meant to bankrupt anyone lol. Fines should be proportional to the reported income
So the government should have all the money? Stuff like that doesn’t stop anything. And what did the users do wrong to the world? You’re stupid in your own shitty world 🙃 there’s probably something someone should give you a fine for lol. At least just for being dumb
Hopefully none. Cannabis is really bad for your health and should NOT be used for “fun”:
There’s thousands of activities with less adverse effects than doing drugs. PLEASE get a hobby other than triyng to fry your brain with chemicals.
References
Only when smoked, from the link you provided:
So this is only a health issue if smoked, marijuana can be consumed in other ways, therefore this point is moot. Smoking oregano probably causes the same side effect, I doubt you’re in favor of banning oregano.
So do cars, do you think we should ban cars? In fact almost all smokes contain carcinogenics, should we also ban coal? Power plants?
Correlation does not imply causation, have you read the actual studies? All of them concur that it’s possible that people with schizophrenia are more likely to use marijuana. And a lot of the meta-analysis point to the fact that no study has normalized for family history which is the largest predictor for schizophrenia. It’s actually kind of funny, a study finds a possible correlation, other study lists that and another one and claims the fact that two different studies found correlation implies a stronger link, another meta-study links that and other similar and claims that because so many have found a strong link it implies causation, if you go back the 4 or 5 levels from the study you publish to the ones that actually studied people you’ll notice that none of them claim causation.
That’s good to know. At least the vascular diseases can be avoided when smoking pot. That does nothing for the carcinogens though.
Yes. They must eventually be replaced with environmentally friendlier alternatives. Carcinogens are unacceptable and should never be willingly ingested just for fun.
Citation needed. Which specific articles are you referring to when you say “All of them”? Call me crazy, but I have a hutch you did not read every single cannabis study that’s ever been written.
Citation needed. Which meta-analysis? Written by whom? When?
Citation needed. Which specific articles are you referring to when you say “none of them”? Call me crazy, but I have a hutch you did not read every single cannabis study that’s ever been written.
I’m quoting the articles you provided, have you even read them?
From the link you sent:
And the 2 reference is:
On that article it reads:
References 48-50 are:
Of those only 49 refers to psychosis, from that article:
Also from that paper:
Long story short the study agrees that people with schizophrenia are more likely to use drugs, and that the studies it references don’t take into consideration what came first. Long story short the links you provided are proof that people with schizophrenia like cannabis, not that cannabis causes it.
Your turn to provide studies that claim what you say that they claim, because the ones you listed disagree with you, they’re just being misquoted in several layers.
You didn’t quote any articles initially.
You’re rude and presumptuous.
That’s your personal conclusion, not the conclusion of the paper that the CDC cites.
Cannabis use preceded psychosis in these studies:
Also: “Controlling for familial risk in one large epidemiological study considerably attenuated but did not completely eliminate the association of cannabis use with schizophrenia, with odds ratios of 3.3 and 1.6 with 3-year and 7-year temporal delays, respectively.” (Volkow ND, Swanson JM, Evins AE, et al. 2016)
The study in question:
You can’t cherry-pick the sections of the article that benefit your personal opinions and simply ignore the rest. Its clear that you did not read these articles with objectivity in mind, and for that reason I will no longer respond to you. Best of luck, hopefully you can overcome your rudeness and lack of objectivity some day.
References
No, initially I told you what they said, but since you didn’t believed me (or read them yourself) I had to quote them verbatim.
Yes I’m rude, that’s because you’re being obnoxious control freak that wants to prevent people from using one of the safest recreational drugs out there on the off possibly that a small number of people with predisposition to schizophrenia might abuse of this substance and make their condition appear earlier than it would otherwise. And I’m presumptuous because when I quote a scientific paper I read it first, and if I smell bullshit I read the thing they’re quoting, I’ve written enough papers myself and been around academia long enough to know how these meta-analysis get written.
Again, did you read the study you just quoted? Because you’re quoting the meta-analysis of it, not the study itself, here’s what that study actually concludes:
Also that study analyzed people with a schizophrenia diagnostic, and looked at previous arrests for drug related crimes to classify who used Marijuana, which is a very bad methodology for several reasons:
I’m not cherry-picking, I’m pointing failures in their methodologies, and misquotes from one paper to the one that’s analyzing it, to show you how “A drug related rap sheet together with family history is a predictor for schizophrenia” becomes “Marijuana causes schizophrenia”.
Edit: also forgot to quote this, it’s not just my opinion z the paper itself admits this is a possibility:
And finally, I don’t care if you answer or not, I’m not answering to you, I expect you read those papers and got to some conclusion. I’m answering so that other people who’re just going to read the title and your response know that that’s not exactly what the paper says, as usual people do a very shallow approximation of what the paper actually says.
Is that any worse than caffeine, alcohol, etc? Do you advocate for making those illegal?
Yes. Their production should be illegal and punished with fines and jailtime. Their recreational use should be punished with fines (take away the money they would’ve used to buy more substances) and forced rehab, ie. Classes on how to stop relying on those drugs.
That sounds pretty totalitarian
Right, nothing more totalitarian than wanting to save people’s lives. Let’s allow everyone to do everything that makes them feel good, consequences be damned. What’s the worst that could happen?
Genuinely curious where do you draw the line?
Like honest question: Do you think we should ban every activity that is as risky as consuming marijuana? If not, why not? Why marijuana and not everything else.
If we’re banning marijuana to save lives because it’s too risky we should be banning driving a car, and climbing a ladder, and hundred other common everyday activities that are more likely to kill you then smoking pot.
You’re not wrong, there are health risks to weed. But there’s risks with literally everything, and weed is really far down on the list of most risky activities.
Going up a ladder and using a car fulfill a practical purpose, and there are numerous safety precautions you can take to minimize the potential risk of an injury. On the contrary, recreational cannabis is explicitly done for fun, and there isn’t really a “risk-safe” way of developing schizophrenia due to substance abuse lmao
Your use of the word “risky” implies that there’s a consequence-free way of doing cannabis. There is not. You will always suffer adverse health effects by doing marijuana.
And to answer your question, no. Because security precautions can be taken to do other fun activities safely. There are no sufficient precautions which would allow you to do marijuana 100% safely.
Should we ban roller coasters? They fulfill no practical purpose, and only add risk of injury.
I respect your suggestion, but not your hope that people are unable to make their own choices.
My only hope is to stop people from destroying their physical and mental just for some short-term feel-good chemicals.
Alcohol, caffeine and tobacco should also be banned, but their capitalist industry is too big at this point to be stopped. Let’s not add another monopoly to the list of legal-drugs
Dosage matters. Adults should be capable of making informed choices about something like this. We should be encouraging education, not banning it
Who’s talking about banning education here? Strawman much?
Now why hasn’t someone tried banning alcohol before?
The way the US went about banning alcohol was extremely poorly implemented, with ignorant and insensitive policies. With the psychology knowledge we have nowadays, I do believe it could be done in an effectively manner.
They tried, but it didn’t go very well
Again, you give good information and you have made your choice, I only ask that we allow others to do the same.
Throwing people in jail for being unhealthy is pretty extreme.
Strawman
I believe that it’s recreational use should be illegal, not that it should be punished with jailtime. The best “punishment” for that “crime” is forced rehab, not jailtime.
Wow he smoked a joint. Let’s fuck him up financially. That helps right? 🙃
Well, it takes away the money they would’ve used to buy more substances. Also its not meant to bankrupt anyone lol. Fines should be proportional to the reported income
So the government should have all the money? Stuff like that doesn’t stop anything. And what did the users do wrong to the world? You’re stupid in your own shitty world 🙃 there’s probably something someone should give you a fine for lol. At least just for being dumb