Google layoffs: The company plans to set up a new team in Munich, Germany which would act as “cheaper” labour, the report claimed.
Was the former python team working on the surface of Io?
Google’s death spiral will take a while but it’s clearly circle the drain.
It will likely never completely die the same way IBM never died but it will stop being the desired placed for new graduates.
Google is too big to fail. Yes they’ll lose a lot of customers and products but they only need to keep the ads and maybe google cloud engine running. Everything else is irrelevant until Google.com becomes irrelevant.
Its not a death spiral but a typical downturn caused by poor leadership. nothing hard for a capable board to rectify.
At googles core their business model could still stomp the competition with capable leadership. AI is simply not the disruptor being marketed.
Source: I’ve done student outreach for Amazon (sitting at a booth, chatting to students, doing student program interviews).
That ship has sailed. While big tech still means big salaries, many graduates are now smart enough to realise that the magic number a company says they’ll pay you every year is meaningless if they’ll lay you off three months from now to appease some shareholders.
They see OpenAI, and they see a startup that basically mopped the floor with ALL of big tech in something they supposedly did for the better part of a decade. I genuinely think we’re a few small success stories away from FAANG being completely relegated to boomer tech like IBM.
Google is done, IMO. The same goes for Meta, the two big tech companies that showed people how “fun” an office could be. They’re now relegated to normal companies…and their output over the last few years show a set of companies with few stand-out winners. Do you really want to slog through a tough CS degree and a 4-5 stage interview process requiring months of prep to work on Google Docs, or work hard for years only to be woken up every night for a whole week because Amazon Fashion is suffering downtime, all while VP’s move to different departments in a blindingly obvious move to avoid department shutdowns and being associated with mass job losses?
IMO, if Google stick with Sundar, and Amazon stick with Jassy, they are done. They’ll lose their status and go into slow decline over the next decade.
the two big tech companies that showed people how “fun” an office could be. They’re now relegated to normal companies…and their output over the last few years show a set of companies with few stand-out winners
- Stop making work engaging
- The geniuses act less engaged and leave or get salty (the Dead Sea Effect)
- “Why would millennials do this to us?”
Seems Google forgot what made it great.
But it’s correctable:
- let the smart people be smart
- hire and organize worker bees around the hard work of maintenance and code evolution that isn’t SRE
- don’t give up on slow starts (ohai Wave)
- run the old folks home for beloved projects that are just PR wins to keep people happy (ohai gReader, Picasa, and a cast of thousands)
Worker-bees don’t need to save the world every quarter. They also don’t earn the big bucks, but form the ecosystem to retain culture amid superstar churn.
Build a functional company again. And fire the people thinking quarter by quarter.
Openai lol.
Are you disputing that their AI offering is better than what Google have produced in the same space?
Whooosh
The fundamental problem with these businesses is that they are Too Big To Fail. Which is to say, they’ll have a low-interest line of credit and enormous historic revenue streams that carry them decades past what should be an expiration date.
If a better Search Engine pops up, Google can either buy them out or vexatiously litigate them into the ground. If they start losing ground to Microsoft or Facebook, their treasury can simply hedge the losses by purchasing their rivals’ stock. If they face an outside challenger - a ByteDance or a Pinstorm - they can lobby the Feds to lock out the competition or buffer their weak sales by winning more federal contracts from the PRISM program.
And, in the end, they’ll always have their IP. Decades of accumulated “we developed a special coding technique for pressing a button, so now you owe us money any time you press a button” basic legacy infrastructure that everyone else will be forced to license by a captured judiciary/regulatory body.
Like GE and Walt Disney and Authentic Brands Group, they don’t actually have to make anything in the end. They can reap tens of billions of dollars by collecting rents on the company legacy.
Just zombie firms feasting on the brains of smaller businesses and retail customers forever and ever and ever.
We can always hope for another Enron.
As a Houston native that gives me IBS just to think about.
one is plenty enough already i’d say
Which is annoying as people will say yeah but capitalism will bring competition. If Google isn’t doing well someone else will step up.
But no. They don’t. Google will be to big to fail and we will support them like you said.
capitalism will bring competition
Because we’re all trapped in the Primitive Accumulationist mindset long after the frontier has closed. Now there’s no more worlds to be conquered. The only question is who has the cheapest lines of credit.
they can lobby the Feds
The reason why Tik Tok is getting banned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Act
Foreign governments and businesses have always been allowed to lobby US officials, under the condition that they register as agents of another government.
Banning TikTok doesn’t prevent business agents from Singapore or China from lobbying in the US. It doesn’t even prevent ByteDance specifically from lobbying in the US.
Ok? They still banned tik Tok because it was a threat to alphabet
The Senate dropped the original TikTok Ban Bill as a stand alone. The House stapled the TikTok ban to its Ukraine relief bill, which Schumer considered a Must-Pass. There’s no shortage of Silicon Valley shills in the Dem Majority US Senate, but that’s not why the amendment ultimately succeeded.
This is because Steven Mnuchin is trying to force a buyout for personal gain and lobbying Congressional Republicans to do his dirty work. Its got far less to do with Sundar Pichai fearing that TikTok might eclipse YouTube.
That’s nice. Doesn’t change what I said but whatever.
If you track the history of the failed independent TikTok bill in the Senate, you’ll understand the situation better.
- Pichai ignores the fact that part of the reason the pay is so well at Big Tech is that they’re paying you to not have ethics. His failure to understand that is gonna seriously hurt Google.
- Looking for cheaper labor… in Germany? Where worker protections are WAY stronger than in the US? Lol. (That’s not a shot at Germany. That’s commentary on American labor protections, or lack thereof).
European salaries for software developers are half of what they are in the USA. It’s a problem on both sides of the Atlantic, honestly.
Source: software developer in Europe who usually works for American companies.
Be that as it may, Europeans don’t have to live with the constant fact that they might just lay you off today due to “staffing optimization” and there’s absolutely fuck-all you can do about it.
Dunno where I saw the headline but supposedly big tech isnt the place fresh graduates dream of going to as their first place.
God damn indian.
Sundar Pichai-led company
Is that really a better description than just saying Google?
Microsoft and Google have indian CEOs so they can penetrate the billion people market (indians are deeply patriotic, and it plays into overall brand loyalty) and these companies plan lower costs while doing so.
What’s a few million dollar paid for a (specifically chosen for the purpose) CEO, when you can make billions by using it to gain grounds in a emerging market.
Win-Win
CEOs. Name them. Shame them.
What exactly does this accomplish?
The board of directors probably plays bigger roles when it comes to layoffs than the C-Suites.
So no ones at fault, if companies knew that they could save so much money. Apparently CEOs do fuck all and banking hundreds of millions.
Folks need to start naming Prabhakar Raghavan, he’s the mother fucker that fucked up the search side to increase ad revenue, which is what Pacai hired him to do like a good little McKinsey alum
he’s also the guy who wrecked yahoo search. fuck Prabhakar Raghavan.
It’s not Google technically: it’s alphabet. Which is why they phrased it like that.
Why not just: “Alphabet (e.g. Google)”?
It’s about accountability
Personally I like seeing his name nailed to the worst era in Google’s history. The company has gone into the shitter since he arrived.
Hindustan Times is an Indian site. Sundar Pichai is Indian.
Lot of knowledge to just throw out there, Sundar.
Let’s hope your documentation can handle it, or a whole lot of important stuff is going to take forever to fix if/when it breaks
Really dumb considering the recent FTC noncompete ruling lol
They’re just going to throw a few more projects on the Google graveyard then
Out of curiosity, does anybody know how big was the team?
I believe it was entirely big.
Python team was ~10 people I think
10 * 350k of total comp is 3.5 million dollars… guessing the german counterparts probably get 120k of total comp so only 1.2 million dollars, assuming it’s 1:1 staff swap.
Never heard of american software engineers at FAANG getting anything less than superstar sf bay wages, never heard of crazy wages in all of the EU for any kind of worker… but maybe someone can correct me on the german team’s salaries.
Just for the sake of comparison, Alphabet had $308 billion in revenue and $74 billion in profit in 2023 if I’m reading the numbers correctly. But they need cheaper labour.
Wait… You get 350k doing python coding?!
$350k includes the salary but also all of the health insurance benefits, taxes, stock options, office space and perks, compute hardware, software services… the works. An employer will have an averaged overhead factor for their skilled workforce, which can be anywhere between 1.5 and 2.5 typically. A worker with an annual pre-tax salary of $140k could cost Google $350k in overall expenses per year. Labor is expensive.
Also, these people weren’t just making simple Python scripts. Most of them were contributing core functionality into Python itself and managing the internal Python version and the ecosystem of Google software stacks that depend on it.
People at Google Munich pull north of 150k euros TC, so with taxes, insurance etc will end up costing Google around 200k. Still significant savings.
Google, who was famous for employing Guido van Rossum (creator of Python) is now firing their python team. I wonder why they didn’t reassign them to the ML/AI division.
Guido van Rossum is working at Microsoft now.
For a blissful moment I thought the headline was saying “Google Lays of Sundar Pichai”
Before I got the hyphen I was starting to get down on the floor.
Even if he gets layed off or even fired, he will still receive a larger compensation package than either you or I will receive as compensation in the whole of our working lives, most likely both of ours together his compensation package will dwarf even ten times what we will make together our whole lives.
Everyone needs a union
No thanks.
The irony is that they are moving to Germany, one of the most unionized countries in the entire world. Also not exactly “cheap” labor.
the IT wages in Germany aren’t as high, you’re looking at €3000-€5000 above your typical factory worker for the type of work they seem to be looking for, BUT therefor they also have German levels of workers right XD, just wait 5 years when Google decides to outsource somewhere else again, and realizes it can’t afford to pay the severance of all those employees
IT wages may not be as high in Germany as in Silicon Valley (cost of living is also a lot lower), but they are certainly a far cry from “cheap.” Also, German workers have much, much better labor conditions overall than US workers. They aren’t easy to cast aside like Google has a habit of doing.
I really hope you don’t mean the python people, the last thing I want in German IT is python dumbfucks… :(
Cheaper labour in the most expensive town in a country that is well known for high labour costs?
Could easily be that they have a bunch of people in Munich they can not fire since German labour laws are at least compared to a lot of places not that bad and they have to come up with some work for them. So having them work on this is still cheaper then having the people in the valley plus “useless” people in Munich.
Compared to Valley workers, Germans are still cheap. 100k is a very very good salary over here.
Take home or total cost?
For instance, is there a pension to be funded with costs not included in that 100k?
Compared to Valley workers, Germans are still cheap.
So is West Virginia or Oklahoma.
True, but you also need to get enough people with the right skills/knowledge who want to live in West Virginia or Oklahoma when those same skills and knowledge likely make them highly employable in markets with more amenities and greater job opportunities without needing to uproot their life and move to a new town/city when the time comes to get a job with a new company.
If only there was a way to, like, have workers work on things without having to be anywhere near the office. Like distance workers or something, then you could hire people from all over the country in cheap places! Ah well, we need that face time though! ~Executives
Yeah, but you still have to pay social taxes on top for every worker. That’s why salary and labour cost are two different things. And boy is it a difference in Germany.
And as far as I’ve been led to believe, workers in the USA will be bullied into not taking any time off. Germans will take their entitled holidays and use sick leave when they are sick.
Workers in the US may not even have sick time. They do make more money though, probably because lots of European tech workers come to the US for better pay.
In practice anyone with this salary is likely to have at least 2 weeks + 10 or so federal holidays. It’s the retail and factory folks who are hurt most there.
Vacation time is not sick time. If you want any type of vacation at all, you need to plan ahead of time. Offering only 2 weeks is a joke. If you get sick one day, you lose one week of vacation.
Monitoring and rationing sick time is like limiting bathroom breaks or coffee time. if your job does it, you have a crappy employer.
If you get sick one day, you lose one week of vacation.
I have never worked anywhere in the United States with a policy like that. It may be your experience but it’s certainly not the norm.
But salary does not equal labour cost.
Even doubling the salary is far less than what you’d pay in the US, and as a rule of thumb, German labour, including all the indirect costs, is about twice the gross salary.
Even doubling the salary is far less than what you’d pay in the US,
I’m certain there’s plenty of Python programmers available in the United States for less than $200,000 per year.
These python programmers are literally maintainers of the language. They’re not a dime a dozen. Not saying it’s impossible or anything but you’re looking to get very high caliber engineers for under 140k
When you have a much better social safety net, work-life balance and in general can expect to be treated like a human and not a work-battery to be used up and discarded, people are satisfied with much less money.
Should they maybe instead just try that in the US? Nah, of course not.
You know where there is also cheaper labor? Other places in the US that are not in Bay Area CA.
Maybe they will save money because they don’t have to offer healthcare?
Employers in Germany have to bear half of the mandatory social security contributions.
This is on top of gross salary and includes mandatory health insurance.That was my first thought.
I’m really starting to think Google has gone to shit now.
It got much worse around 2018, but they are speed running.
You are only starting to think that NOW?
I love Google. Especially since they started taking a stance against commies.
🤨
👍
Jesus Christ you’re dumb as fuck.
Or a troll
https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/29/google_python_flutter_layoffs/
Perhaps a bit better source. At least a bit less irritating to read.
Sundar Pichai will go down as one of the worst tech CEOs. Dude appears as such a nice guy from podcasts I’ve listened with him but really awful at his job and has zero consistent personality. He’s a straight up corporate robot with no original opinions or idealogies. Unfortunately, none of that is visible or really matters because Google has infinite source of ad money so any KPIs are made irrelevant.
It’s like he looked at Carly Fiorina’s run on HP and said “hold my beer”.
The KPIs are coming for their Ads Money too. I commented elsewhere about how Search is being bent to the will of Ads, and it’s Raghaven who’s being enabled by Sundar to do it. They’ve been hit with the problem that Ads isn’t growing as expected. Having worked with the new Google Ads dashboard, it’s no wonder why. It’s clunky, the mobile app is missing functionality, and the web app is broken on mobile. Throw on top the constant interruptions due to their AI flagging perfectly normal campaigns, and it’s enough to push people elsewhere. Sundar is the Ballmer of Google, and unless he’s deposed he will drive Google down the path the likes of IBM or Oracle.
CEOs are sociopaths.
To be totally honest, i might be a sociopath too if i only have to work for a year and have enough money for a many generations
Honestly, I think there is something to that. You probably do need to be a sociopath in order to become a CEO like that, but I’d also buy that becoming wealthy, by any means, is probably going to change you and your worldview whether you like it or not
Money isn’t quite zero sum, but you don’t need to zoom in very far for it certainly look like it.
Then you start trying to think about better solutions. If you’ve got a decent understanding of human history you can see the solutions you come up with played out over the last 5,000 years of human civilization with various levels of success or massive failures resulting in war, slavery, or famine.
Then you think about what would happen if we all return to subsistence farming to avoid all that where our entire world be what we see with our eyes in the morning when we get out of bed. Then again you realize you’re back to war, slavery, or famine except on a micro scale with just yourself and your neighbor instead of on a nation-state sized version.
The least-worse (not the best, because there is no best) solution I can think of at the moment is a nation that jumpstarts on war, slavery, and/or famine, and transitions to an egalitarian socialist society when its powerful and rich enough. That still doesn’t remove the very human element of corruption or exploitation that just want more than that ‘perfect society’ would produce.
google is in a free fall
They brought it upon them.
Their financials are doing pretty great, but like any enshitification, the UX is degraded by the day to squeeze money out of everything.
