esp if you’re one of the devout ones who think they’ve been really good

  • Toes♀@ani.social
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    5 months ago

    Careful that’s how you end up drinking the blue Kool aid.

    The ending of life is a sad thing, it can be frightening to imagine losing that control.

    Faith is one form of trying to capture that control. Please try to cherish the life you have here and make the most of it. For most I suspect there’s no need to rush it.

    • Shareni@programming.dev
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      5 months ago

      Faith is also trying to cherish the life you have, and make the best of it. For example “God gave you a talent, don’t waste it” or saying grace and focusing on what you’re thankful for in life. I even knew people who use prayer as a form of mindfulness meditation to keep them grounded in the present.

  • PlzGivHugs@sh.itjust.works
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    5 months ago

    Regardless of how much you look forward to what comes after and how certain you feel about it, no one is going to want to go through the pain that comes with dying.

    • RadicalEagle@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      What if dying feels like letting go of all your pain? I can imagine dying feels good. The best part about dying is you can’t be certain what it’ll be like. It could be the ultimate punchline, the ultimate letdown, or just utter nonsense as you fall asleep.

      Just like life, dying is out of my control so I’m just going to go with it and try to enjoy it as much as I can.

      • PlzGivHugs@sh.itjust.works
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        5 months ago

        I mean, maybe after your heart stops and your brain function starts to slow down it might be peaceful, but unless you’re on a lot of painkillers the process up until that point tends to be excruciatingly painful - at least personally, thats the scary part.

        • originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com
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          5 months ago

          i see you said this was your personal anecdote…

          that said, this is just is not true (for everyone), please dont say this to people. not everyone dies in pain, or has a journey filled with it.

          i work in hospice, your words could not be farther from the truth.

  • Temperche@slrpnk.net
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    5 months ago

    The good afterlife is only available to them if they have been “good people” while alive, and dying early is not being a “good person”. Also, after their death, they supposedly get “judged”, and everybody is going to worry about the X number of “sins” that they did during their life that might end them up in hell.

    • Shareni@programming.dev
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      5 months ago

      That’s not true even for all of Christianity, let alone all religions…

      For example orthodox Christians believe everyone goes to heaven, and that we are all bathed in unconditional love from God. Hell is finding yourself unworthy of that love because of how you lived.

      • Flax@feddit.uk
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        5 months ago

        Orthodox Christians believe that everyone has sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, that the punishment for sin is death, Jesus is the only way to The Father and the way or forgiveness of sins. It’s not everyone. If everyone went to heaven that would mean sin would go unpunished.

        • Shareni@programming.dev
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          5 months ago

          Punishment is a part of catholic dogma, and makes no sense if you think of God as absolutely good and loving.

          If we have allowed our hearts to be purified, then God’s presence will be healing, joyful, and life-giving. If we refuse God’s healing embrace, then His love will burn like fire, “for our God is a consuming fire” (Deut 4:24, 9:3, Isa 33:14, Heb 12:23)

          https://www.orthodoxroad.com/heaven-hell/

    • Flax@feddit.uk
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      5 months ago

      Everyone is sinful and deserves hell. Forgiveness is through Jesus.

      • Shareni@programming.dev
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        5 months ago

        You don’t see any cognitive dissonance with that statement coming from an absolutely good and loving being?

        • Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          5 months ago

          Absolutely good and Absolutely just.

          Not absolutely loving. Source: Bible

          “I loved Jacob, but Esau I hated.” Malachi 1

          • Shareni@programming.dev
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            5 months ago

            Here’s an alternative translation of those verses from NLT:

            I loved your ancestor Jacob, but I rejected his brother, Esau

            But I don’t know any Hebrew and only a few words of ancient Greek, so can’t comment on how accurate it is.

            Besides that, the perception of God is vastly different between the testaments:

            7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9

            1 John 4

            You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

            Matthew 5:43-45

  • RadicalEagle@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Yeah. As someone who really likes thinking about metaphysics I’m really excited to die and see what it feels like. That being said I also really enjoy living and I’m not in a rush to die. It’ll happen eventually and I want to try to do as much as I can while I can.

    Everyone should be excited to die, not just religious people. Being excited to die means you lived a good life that you’re satisfied with.

      • RadicalEagle@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Nah. But reason and logic are just human constructs that you’ll get to let go of when you die. The process of being born is indescribable for me. I think the process of dying will also be indescribable by definition.

      • Shareni@programming.dev
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        5 months ago

        The same reason why you feel different today than when you were just born? You don’t even need dualism to have a basis for life after death.

        • KidnappedByKitties@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          I feel different today as my sensory as well as sensory processing organs have developed.

          Being dead, just as before being born, I possess no such organs and expect not to “feel”.

          But my position isn’t the interesting one, @RadicalEagle suggested something I interpreted as still having perception beyond life, and I was wondering if that excludes having perception before life, and how that ties into their metaphysics.

          • Shareni@programming.dev
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            5 months ago

            I feel different today as my sensory as well as sensory processing organs have developed.

            There are a lot more changes influencing your perception of reality than just sensory development.

            Being dead, just as before being born, I possess no such organs and expect not to “feel”.

            That’s dependent on your consciousness being limited to your physical body. Who’s to say that your consciousness wasn’t limited so a pantheistic deity could interact with itself. Both theories are equally unscientific as you can’t disprove what happens before or after life

            • KidnappedByKitties@lemm.ee
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              5 months ago

              There are a lot more changes influencing your perception of reality than just sensory development.

              I’d agree, but those are enough to clearly demonstrate a mechanism for changed perception in the proposed time span. The underlying question is question begging and whataboutism, so I think I’ve provided an overly generous answer to a dishonest question.

              That’s dependent on your consciousness being limited to your physical body. Who’s to say that your consciousness wasn’t limited so a pantheistic deity could interact with itself. Both theories are equally unscientific as you can’t disprove what happens before or after life

              As we can reliably affect consciousness though manipulating the body, it’s well established that it’s contingent on the body.

              And as we can map consciousness happening in the body down to individual neurons firing, where would a non-corporeal consciousness interact with a body?

              You calling these reliably reproducible facts unscientific belies a fundamental misunderstanding of science.

              Though naturalism might not be the only way to investigate the universe, we have yet to encounter any reliable other paradigms. And even if we would discover them, naturalism would still be part of science, we’d just add the other paradigms to the areas they’re useful, like we’ve done with psychology, sociology, and even quantum physics.

              A difficult question for unfalsifiable hypotheses is that if they’re unfalsifiable, they are also undetectable, and as such no different from figments of imagination. Why should I believe your imagination when my imaginary friend says not to?

              • Shareni@programming.dev
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                5 months ago

                And as we can map consciousness happening in the body down to individual neurons firing, where would a non-corporeal consciousness interact with a body?

                Did I mention dualism or substance monism? Materialism doesn’t necessarily include physicalism.

                You calling these reliably reproducible facts unscientific belies a fundamental misunderstanding of science.

                Read up on why physicalism is not verifiable. Your imagination saying consciousness ends with death is equally verifiable as my imagination saying you’re taken away by the flying spaghetti monster.

                Though naturalism might not be the only way to investigate the universe, we have yet to encounter any reliable other paradigms.

                Ever heard of ontological pluralism? Naturalism is not physicalism…

                • KidnappedByKitties@lemm.ee
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                  5 months ago

                  Your last response wasn’t constructive, and this one does even less to further a discussion. I’ll just end this here.

                  Have a nice rest of your existence.

            • Soggy@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Consciousness being tied to the physical body isn’t “unscientific”, it’s the only option that can be tested and studied.

              • Shareni@programming.dev
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                5 months ago

                Read a bit about falsifiability and philosophy of science. Physicalism is a metaphysical theory, and not falsifiable.

    • RustyShackleford@literature.cafe
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      5 months ago

      Being excited to die means you lived a good life

      The problem is, most of the current generation is well aware they haven’t lived good lives. Not to mention, the conundrum of living longer implies a chance for an accumulation of more misdeeds. Personally, the most likely scenario is almost everyone becomes aware there is likely nothing afterwards at some point. Religion is more there like the bumpers for kids cosmic bowling, ensuring zero gutter balls. Keeping you playing, until the day you’re old enough to remove them and pay taxes, revealing life is a subscription, and childhood was a free trial all along.

      • RadicalEagle@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Not everyone can live a “good” life by your definition of good, but they can live a good life by their definition of good.

        Current generations realize that what older people are trying to sell them is a scam, and they’re working on building a new better reality based on their fresh perspective on what reality is.

        You can look at religion through many lenses, but at the end of the day religion is just an unprovable fiction we choose to believe because it’s how we want the world to work. My belief that if you want to live a good life you should do unto others as you would have them do unto you is religious. Game theory and my life experiences support my belief, but it is ultimately an unprovable belief because of Hume’s Guillotine and the fact that my definition of “good life” is subjective.

        It’s 100% possible that I’m just tricking myself into thinking helping other people is good and makes me happy, but I will still choose to believe.

  • Technus@lemmy.zip
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    5 months ago

    It was actually her obsession with the afterlife and the coming of the end times that led to me cutting off contact with my mother in 2014 and me renouncing my faith.

    My mom was a devout Christian my whole life, but she went full-on fire-and-brimstone Bible thumper during her divorce from my dad. My dad had cheated on her multiple times and she’d finally had enough of it.

    She hated my dad for walking out, but vehemently denied that fact and instead projected her hatred onto God himself. She would always say my dad (and anyone who supported him on his side of the family) would be judged harshly for his actions in the next life. By the way, she said this about basically anyone she didn’t like, including people she disagreed with politically or morally; it might not surprise you to learn that she was quite a bigot as well.

    In the last few years I knew her, she started to obsess over the prophecies in Revelations. She’d constantly send me chain emails about how the various conflicts in the middle east were a sign that Jesus Christ was about to return, or a misquoted article about the US government looking into identity microchips was Obama (the Antichrist, obviously) giving his followers the Mark of the Beast. The last time I spoke to her was in 2014 so I never got to ask her what she thought of Trump and his MAGA hats, but I have a strong feeling the irony would have been lost on her; I once had to explain to her that an article she showed me from The Onion was satire and her response was, “they shouldn’t be allowed to say those things.”

    She died in 2020, but not from COVID. Two years earlier, she had let a kidney stone get infected which then progressed to full-on sepsis. It responded to the treatment at the time but the infection damaged her heart, which ended up killing her. For the life of me, I couldn’t imagine why she didn’t see a doctor because a kidney stone would have hurt like hell, but then I realized she probably felt that it was just God calling her home.

    So yes, anecdotally speaking there are religious people out there who are obsessed with the afterlife. I think people are still inherently afraid of death, though, so they’re not exactly in a hurry to die. But for a religious person who’s ready to die, it’s likely nearly all they can think about.

    • Flax@feddit.uk
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      5 months ago

      There is a comfort in knowing that we shouldn’t feel like we have to take revenge on those who wronged us because God will judge them

      • Technus@lemmy.zip
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        5 months ago

        Or, you could spend your whole life dreaming of the day that God judges your enemies for you, instead of listening to your loved ones telling you to move on and find your own happiness, or you know, learning some actual conflict management skills.

        • Flax@feddit.uk
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          5 months ago

          You can move on knowing it’s in God’s hands and not your burden to bear.

  • IMongoose@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Yes. I’ve seen a religious person on their death bed saying that they have lived long enough and are ready for god to take them.

  • Brkdncr@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Religion has crafted their rules to make sure they maintain control. They can’t control dead people.

  • Bridger@sh.itjust.works
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    5 months ago

    No, they’re scared shirtless of death. They know despite the self righteous facade that they are shitty human beings and expect to find themselves in hell.

  • Flax@feddit.uk
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    5 months ago

    Yes. I am excited to escape this evil world and finally be with God where I won’t suffer any more. I am excited for Christ to come back and destroy all evil in this world as well. Maranatha!

  • /home/pineapplelover@lemm.ee
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    5 months ago

    I’ve asked a number of religious guys what happens if you kill infants, would they go to heaven? If so, why don’t we since that will result in eternal happiness without all the life suffering and risk going to hell.

    One person (Catholic) told me, the babies would go to heaven if they were baptized and then killed. The other person (Christian) told me they can’t determine this because they’re not God.

  • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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    5 months ago

    So this turned into a bit of a rant and while it’s likely nobody cares I’ll post it anyway.

    I don’t know about Christianity but at least in Islam this isn’t how it works. So there’s a hadith that says that death is the worst of what comes before it and the easiest of what comes after it, because the day of judgement is just that bad. There’s another that says that in the day of judgement it will be so hard that people will want Allah to start it even if they go to hell. No matter how much you think you’ve been a good person it’s not at all something to look forward to. And that’s not counting how even as a Muslim depending on what you did in your life, you could go to hell, spend a certain time there according to your sins in life and then go to heaven. Again not something most people want to find out, especially because Islam teaches that with the exception of prophets everyone sins and that we all need Allah’s forgiveness and mercy to go to heaven. The kind of arrogance it’d take to actually hope for death because you’re confident you’re going to heaven can in fact be the reason you go to hell. A devout Muslim will never think “oh I’ve been really good in life I can’t wait to die and go to heaven”.

    Then we get into how in the day of judgement people will have mountains of good deeds and mountains of bad deeds and people’s (temporary; again all Muslims will eventually go to heaven) fate will be decided over a single good or bad deed. Most people thinking seriously about the afterlife will want to live as long as possible to do good deeds and beg god for forgiveness for their bad deeds. Again, no sane Muslim will think “yep, I’m doing alright, death please”.

    • Crackhappy@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I grew up in the largest muslim country, and I never knew that. I’m a devout atheist, but this is helpful to frame the thoughts others have.

  • southsamurai@sh.itjust.works
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    5 months ago

    Some of them are

    I’ve been bedside at more deaths than I can accurately recall. Most of them followed some religion or another, and there were a dozen or so that expressed peace and/or joy at the thought of the afterlife promised to them. Some of the others hoped it would be there, but expressed it with some degree of fear or doubt. The rest were honestly either not in their mind at all, or were otherwise unable to communicate towards the very end.

    Christians, most of them, for what that matters. Three Muslims that I recall because you don’t find many here in the rural south. All of them were awake and alert towards the end, and expresses still having faith, though they seemed to focus more on making their last days be about saying goodbye. No clue if that was them as individuals, or a facet of Islam in their lives.

    The ones that were the most outright joyous were what you might call a bit obsessed with their religion, but it didn’t seem to stay along denomination lines with the caveat that Catholics aren’t much better represented here than Muslims, so protestants made up the majority of my religious patients, period.

    Only ever had one Hindu patient that was dying, and he never mentioned it at all. He just wanted to cuddle with his wife and enjoy good food.

    But shit, one the happiest people I ever sat with as they were dying was a secular humanist. Dude was all about going out with a smile. Kept himself just high enough to feel no pain, and was otherwise essentially partying until the cancer made that impossible. Then it was just enough medication to keep pain minimized while allowing him to be aware and able to talk. But he said he was happy with his life, and expected death to be a welcome cessation of the bullshit that comes with a body.

    I think the most “impressive” Christian I sat with was an retired evangelical preacher. Despite his religion, the guy was very zen about it. “The Lord will reach down for me when it is time. I’m just going to enjoy what I have until then, and praise his name with my last breath.” But it wasn’t some kind of crazy thing, it was said very calmly, very matter-of-fact. He shrugged a little when he said it, like it was no big deal when he went.

    That guy was of one of my favorite patients tbh. We’d go walking, and just chat about whatever our minds brought up. Wasn’t always deep stuff, sometimes it would just be swapping stories about ourselves. Never preached at me, not once, and I had let him know I was essentially atheist, but also Buddhist despite that. You’d think a retired preacher from the kind of church he was in would be all up my ass, but he never even hinted at that kind of thinking.

    I came late to when he was passing. It was late at night, and he was a morning patient for me. He was pretty much non verbal the last two days, but he would reach out to people you hold their hands, and smile.

    Some people really, truly believe. They can believe so deeply that death is either a momentary inconvenience between them and their afterlife, or is a very welcome gift from god. There’s no doubt in them, no fear, but also no desire to accelerate it.

    Anyway, it’s obvious that nobody can speak for the billions of religious people in the world totally. Even as many deaths as I saw are a drop in an ocean of death. But it’s certain that religion can bring about what you’re asking.

    • akakunai@lemmy.ca
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      5 months ago

      I don’t really have anything to add, but thanks for writing this. It’s quite insightful.