Jill Stein will resolve problems created by two-party mess.
The actual argument is that we can do a lot better, but disingenuous political hacks shriek “THAT MEANS YOU THINK BOTH ARE THE EXACT SAME!!!1” and so we’re stuck with voting “not the other guy” for the rest of our lives as the wealth gap keeps widening, everything gets less affordable, the climate is still worsening, and nothing improves in any meaningful capacity.
Wow, it’s almost like their’s a third candidate running on similar policy changes… Cost of living, environment and improving people’s lives in a meaningful capacity.
Kennedy is an antivax idiot.
“For many, many years, I think parents were so gaslighted, and they were scapegoated, and they were vilified and marginalized, so that even parents of kids who were very, very badly injured, knew what happened to their kid, but they were just reluctant to talk about it. And I think now those days are over,” Kennedy said.
“We – our job is to resist and to talk about it to everybody. If you’re walking down the street – and I do this now myself, which is, you know, I don’t want to do – I’m not a busybody. I see somebody on a hiking trail carrying a little baby and I say to him, ‘Better not get him vaccinated.’ And he heard that from me. If he hears it from 10 other people, maybe he won’t do it, you know, maybe he will save that child.”
Kennedy repeated later in the podcast: “If you’re one of 10 people that goes up to a guy, a man or a woman, who’s carrying a baby, and says, ‘Don’t vaccinate that baby,’ when they hear that from 10 people, it’ll make an impression on ‘em, you know. And we all kept our mouth shut. Don’t keep your mouth shut anymore. Confront everybody on it.”
On a different podcast, he said "Every one of us has an obligation to do a civil disobedience every day. And that could just be walking up to another person – a mother who’s carrying a baby, like I did this morning – and saying, ‘Before you vaccinate that baby, do your independent research.’”
So either he changed his mind – in which case he should very loudly and publicly say he was wrong and recant his remarks – or he’s a fucking liar.
As a potential voter of his. I guess I don’t really care? If I was never allowed to change my opinion, I wouldn’t be able to grow as a person. With his most recent statement, he’s not anti-vaccine. I can find it but I don’t feel like it right now.
Talk is one thing, actions are another. Give the guy a break.
God forbid I have an opinion about Biden’s old age. Another 4 years of inflation out the wazoo, 4 more years of a state sponsored genocide in Gaza, 4 more years giving $75 billion in assistance to Ukraine. We REALLY don’t have ANYTHING else better to spend it on?
I don’t know about this candidate in general, but there’s no chance anyone outside of the democrat-republican approval filter will get anywhere near the presidency. It’s like the myth of “anyone can be rich if they put their mind to it and work hard enough”. In theory enough votes could get any candidate the presidency, but in practice it’s impossible (with even lower odds than becoming individually rich).
Especially with that attitude.
I’m just blocking the idiots that post these. So tired already of their bullshit.
We COULD do a lot better if it wasn’t for all those idiots sitting under the scales. There’s a shit load of people that actively want everything on the right side of that scale. There’s groups of people actively supporting Israeli because they believe it’ll bring about the apocalypse and let Jesus return.
Hagee has MILLIONS of followers. And not on twitter, in real life. People who live their lives in service to his vision. People who donate money and time to the cause.
And those are just the zealots. There’s millions more that do whatever these people say “just to be on the safe side” in case they’re right.
In total they compromise about 15-20% of the population, which is roughly the entire population of France or the UK. https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/10/28/22750589/what-the-latest-data-tells-us-about-christian-nationalism-pew-research-center-andrew-whitehead/
These people cannot be reasoned with, they are blood bound members of a death cult and the only recourse we have is to out vote them. It fucking sucks.
We could do a lot better right now, but biden has demonstrated time and again that he won’t take action even when he can. The genocide in Gaza is the perfect example. He’ll say he’s sad and frustrated but then supplies israel even more to continue their genocide. It’s hard to believe that if we just vote in democrats hard enough that they will take action when they refuse to take action on things they have the power to right now.
That’s not what is being addressed here and I think you know that.
There are LOTS of people who equate the two sides and say they are no different. This is a toxic lie and you shouldn’t defend it
There is not. Most people who criticize Biden believe we could do better including not supporting the mass killing and ethnic cleansing or Palestinians by the Israeli state.
And the reality is that as far as the presidency is concerned on that specific topic we have a choice between someone who has been maintaining the existing status quo vis a vis Israel and Palestine but has been successfully pressured into at least looking like he’s trying to stop it by his base and the guy who, last time he was in office, made it worse by moving the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem and several other actions, plus everything else wrong with his policies. As far as the presidency goes, those are the only two options, so while we could maybe have done better before, we don’t have a different option now.
So, between “bad but can be influenced to be better” and “far, far, demonstrably worse and only descending,” the only two actual options, which should people vote for?
I won’t tell any one who they should vote for. However, I think the time to influence the president is now. We’ll see if he is influencable for this particular horror.
Have you tried to speak up to your elected officials to influence the US government to change it’s current position so that we aren’t enabling the Israeli government in its massacre of the Palestinean people?
It’s plain to anyone who is willing to see that this administration has been influenced in a positive direction vis a vis Israel, and they are doing much more to help the Palestinian people than the “turn Gaza into a radioactive parking lot” crew that is the other option will do should they regain power. And yes, I have called the offices of my elected representatives, which didn’t go very far because they’re Republicans.
I do not share your compunction about telling people that a vote for better is better, even if better is not ideal, because I’m an adult who has been paying attention to how it has been and is promised to be worse. There is no viable third party, and mathematically there will not be until every state changes away from First Past the Post, which will not happen before the election. Therefore, the better of the two parties, obviously the Democrats, should be voted for. Full stop. Up and down the ballot. Anyone who decides to not vote this way is indicating that they are fine with the Republicans regaining power, and aren’t allowed to complain about the leapords eating their face should they win. The only instance in which voting third party is acceptable is for smaller local elections, and even then that’s if they did a good job canvassing. You should help them canvass, if there are any nearby.
I am too, believe it or not, an adult. I have different values that lead me to different decisions. I’ve refrained from condescending to you even though we disagree. I hope shining a light on that will change the tenor of this conversation.
Regarding Gaza, I see that the administration has been inching away from the full support of Israel. But from I can tell, it’s been wholly rhetorical. While I would like a long term ceasefire, I know that that’s unlikely at this moment. However, this doesn’t mean that the Biden administration lacks leverage. They continue to supply the IDF with weapons. Biden needs to stop this. Second, threaten cutting off funding to Israel. We average about 3 billion dollars in yearly aid to Israel. The last time a present threaten to cut off funding to Israel was HW Bush in 1991.
Those would be two material and immediate changes that would make sense to me. Next, support resolutions with other western countries in the UN to move towards a long term ceasefire. Get them to open more land crossing to allow for additional aid to enter via truck. The roads exist. We don’t need to build a port.
These steps, would be meaningful. I think it would influence uncommitted voters in swing states. Biden is influenceable now because we are entering into an election. Staying uncommitted means that we have leverage.
I hope that framing makes sense even if you don’t agree with it.
Those are good things to want. Since we’re talking about elections, it’s worth mentioning that of the grand total of two options, only democrats have even a slight possibility for them to happen, wheras the Republicans are saying that Gaza should be nuked, which is worse than what’s happening right now, I’m sure you’ll agree. Which is to say nothing of literally every single other issue where the Rs are universally much worse.
Feel free to appear uncommitted right up until the general, at which point you and everyone else trying to extract concessions needs to show up. And as long as that happens, I’m sorry for implying you’re not an adult.
Somehow you scrolled past a dozen comments proving you wrong to lie about it here
Every comment I scrolled past was some form of agreement. The parent to this comment was the first one critical of the OP.
I don’t know what else to say. I’m being sincere. I’m not interested in some victory points. I’d like my views to be taken seriously and not flattened to farsical stance. I’d like good faith interactions, but understand that this is a passionate project for many.
I’m open to discussion if you want to engage in one that isn’t focused on trying to dunk on your opponent.
I love watching this strawman over and over.
Of course Biden is better than Trump. He should still stop supporting genocide.
What is the strawman in this meme? When you talk to republicans they will point out the flaws of a democrat and act like that is equivalent to whatever their republican counterparts are doing. This is not a strawman.
When you talk to republicans they will point out the flaws of a democrat and act like that is equivalent to whatever their republican counterparts are doing
A “flaw”? Really? Supporting genocide is more than a “flaw”.
But the problem arises when the sort of centrist who would downplay genocide by calling it a “flaw” decides that anyone who says that Biden should stop supporting genocide must be a republican both-sidesing. Or is a Russian. Or chinese, or a bot or a tankie or a trumpist or a nazi or a child.
Which are all things I have been called because I dared to say that Biden should not be supporting genocide.
I’m not disagreeing on the genocide comment. But you said it was a strawman argument. Nothing you’ve said equates to a strawman argument. That’s all I’m saying.
This meme is targeting leftists, not republicans.
Which strawman? I’m relying on:
strawman: a weak or imaginary opposition (such as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted
I don’t think op knows what a strawman argument is.
Anybody who doesn’t vote for Biden because of Israel deserves Trump.
Problem is there will be a MAJORITY of us who voted for Biden.
What these assholes don’t understand is we are fighting over margins.
I get one vote in the presidential election and when you look at my state, it doesn’t fucking matter.
It’s down ballot that matters and people tend to vote down ballot of the president elect they support.
So anyone you discourage from voting Biden in a swing state is more like “-200” votes. Where I could say I’m going to piss on my ballot and set it on fire and it does not matter. After it drys, probably. Or my piss will be alcohol because how of wasted I will be.
All this to say, what ever the fuck your problem with Biden is, it doesn’t matter. We need to win the house and senate too and it’s a uphill battle all. the. fucking. way.
It seems like encouraging people to vote would be more effective than vote-shaming. Am I wrong? Does vote-shaming increase turnout?
Forgive me bud, we’re here on a politics message board. We are all entrenched. This is the show to display many different view points and fuck knows where it goes from there. Maybe someone takes a liking to one and uses it but end of the day we are here venting frustrations and kicking piss at each other.
I thought you guys would “stop after the primary season.” I wonder if anyone called that out as bullshit.
Stop what?
Trying to steer us into a valcano
By doing what, specifically?
Creating division prior to a major election in the US
So you saw people who specifically said they were deliberately creating division prior to the primaries, and specifically said they would stop doing that after the primaries?
Sure…
As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button, or control inflation lever for that matter.
If it’s not going to be Biden, then it will be someone else. Either a Republican or a Democrat.
Even someone who earlier looked promising, eg Fetterman is a staunch Israel supporter.
Because the problem is systematic. You can’t just uproot the US-Israel nexus that’s deeply entrenched in the US politics.
It has a stop paying for genocide button.
It has a stop vetoing UN resolutions button.
It has an impose sanctions button and a freeze assets button.
It has a pull their warships out button.
It has dozens of make life really uncomfortable for Israel if it doesn’t fucking stop committing genocide buttons.
But at the very least it could stop actively helping them commit genocide.
And what does that do?
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
These things don’t happen in a vacuum.
Biden isn’t rubbing his hands with glee and laughing maniacally.
Do you honestly think these options weren’t considered over the last six months?
“Oh, I’m so sorry, I’d love to stop the genocide, but think of the optics! It would be soooooooo optically bad if we stopped the genocide! It could make the fence sitters vote for trump! We all know the fence sitters love genocide!”
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
Should we also not support healthcare, trans rights, women’s rights, work reform , tax reform, climate change laws and all the other things they get angry at? The road to fascism is paved with political convenience.
I’m worried that’ll be their next strategy considering their pivot strong right on immigration
Most of those things are a part of the democrats platform. Isreal is categorically different.
And what does that do?
Makes it harder for Netanyahu to continue committing genocide.
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
We shouldn’t keep supporting genocide just because you’re scared of what the GOP might do. That’s a shitty reason for anything, and it’s disgusting cowardice in this context.
What happens when your high morals cost American lives here at home? You’ll learn a lot about cowardice when living under authoritarian rule.
In before, “just have a bloody war.”
What happens when your high morals cost American lives here at home?
I did not suggest voting for Trump or not voting for Biden.
I said that Biden should stop supporting genocide.
Is your position also that we need to endlessly discuss bidens position on Isreal during an election year? Or are there other issues that we need to address as americans?
And what does that do?
Gives ammo to GOP and their allies to target Biden and attract fence-sitters and unaware.
On the contrary. The majority of the population doesn’t approve of supporting genocide, especially Democrats and prospective Dem voters further left.
The status quo of supporting the genocide isn’t winning over anyone who would vote Republican if they stopped. It’s alienating millions of crucial voters who won’t vote at all if they DON’T stop.
We can easily agree that not voting is a bad idea that is likely to contribute to the risk of mango Mussolini winning.
Given that, we should be able to also agree that it’s a bad idea to knowingly keep doing something morally and ethically reprehensible that is causing people to do just that.
They did use the stop vetoing resolutions button. Not much but it’s not nothing.
Sending their warships would mean Israel would try calling their bluff and force USA to commit an act of war to stop them, which would cause absolutely chaos in the region. They probably should start with sanctions though.
Biden’s biggest problem here is he’s so focused on backrooms negotiations, that he’s not using some of the options that could increase public pressure, and all other people see is old treaties continuing with very slow changes and seeing the continued actions of the other party who doesn’t really want to negotiate.
They also claimed that the resolution is non-binding, which is contrary to stated international law.
I mean withdraw their ships already in the area, replace that layer of defense with, oh I dunno, thoughts and prayers maybe.
You’re one the types that demand we leave Iraq and then gets upset when we have to face the consequences of doing it.
As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button, or control inflation lever for that matter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
They indeed have the stop button but it’s not the one they are pressing.
As far as I know, the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button
I didn’t say “stop genocide”. I said “stop supporting genocide.”
That’s a distinction that shows you understand nuance. Unfortunately your position does not suggest the same.
My position being that Biden should stop supporting genocide.
the Oval Office doesn’t have start/stop genocide button
True, but it DOES have the option to stop supplying bombs that they know for a fact are being used to commit that genocide.
Your “either they can push a magic button or they’re doing all they can” dichotomy isn’t clever. It shows that you’re being either disingenuous, willfully ignorant or just extremely obtuse.
Because the problem is systematic
Yes, Israel is systematically wiping out the population of Gaza and the Biden White House is using the levers of the system to help them do it. That’s not an argument for not telling them to stop.
You can’t just uproot the US-Israel nexus that’s deeply entrenched in the US politics
You can, in fact. It worked with Apartheid South Africa, which the US also kept supporting way beyond the point that most other countries stopped, and it’ll work with THIS apartheid regime too.
Not sure where you got the implication from that he shouldn’t stop supporting genocide?
Wrong thread
Right here on lemmy. Try saying that Biden should stop supporting genocide here on lemmy a few times. You’ll get plenty of people acting like you’re both-sidesing for Trump.
Only if you add in a splash of “so I’m not voting for him”.
No one is shouting down people for just saying Biden should stop supporting genocide.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that this is not true
I can tell you with 100% certainty that it is.
Wow, that was easy!
Someone posts news about Biden walking back on his sanctions on settlers, and this comment appears. Edit, doesn’t work for me, maybe this link to my reply will
Another perfect example and another
Someone makes a meme about Biden jeopardizing his chances and gets this response.
None of these people said they would vote trump. If you look out for it you will see this quite often. Unfortunately a couple of recent threads I was involved in with other examples have since been deleted.
I can’t read some of those without creating an account, so I’ll take your word for it.
But from the ones I can see, I don’t see anyone acting like someone who claimed Biden should stop supporting genocide is both-sidesing for Trump.
The one that comes closest was downvoted and removed, so it’s obviously not a popular thing to do.
If you say “biden should stop supporting genocide” then you’ll get “but the other guy supports genocide even harder” to shut down any discussion. If you point out that it’s unacceptable that the only two options are genocide supporters, that’s definitely when you get the “you’re both sidesing!!” talking point in another attempt to shut down discussion.
No you won’t.
Thank you for letting me know that I must be lying about my lived experience.
Go ahead, share some examples then. Back yourself up. Should be simple if it’s so common.
You get one. I suspect you’re arguing in bad faith and I’m not going to waste more time on something like that.
https://lemmy.world/comment/8972976
Particularly sailingbythelee’s response. When you try to say this isn’t sufficient, it will confirm that you were arguing in bad faith the entire time.
Oh the commenter who’s being downvoted? Yeah, it’s obviously not a prevalent or popular response. At best you’re complaining about trolls on the internet – that’s always going to exist.
Oh, and before I forget, if you say that’s not what you’re doing, then it will confirm you were arguing in bad faith the entire time.
That’s for teaching me that cool trick with that disclaimer – what a neat way to discredit people.
You could not have found a better example.
Original position of the goalposts:
No one is shouting down people for just saying Biden should stop supporting genocide.
Now all of a sudden the downvotes are the most important part
If he doesn’t change his position by Election Day, will that prevent you from voting for him?
Wouldn’t that be single-issue voting that would ultimately favor the Orange Menace?
I don’t understand why this keeps resurfacing on Lemmy like there’s a choice. Like, what’s the point of asking people this?
To convince people to not vote or vote third party, so that fascism can get stronger. It will totally work out this time, guys, promise.
Accelerationism is a hell of a drug.
Please vote. Vote third party for president if that’s your conscience.
But also make sure to vote for those what will allow ranked-choice, proportional representation, etc. vote against wackos in your community. Vote for social programs that actually reduce crime and increase safely instead of voting for higher police budgets. Vote for consumer protection. Vote for education and other high return on tax dollar investments.
The point is to avoid addressing the reasonable concern. If you say you would not vote for Biden then the conversation becomes about your poor tactics rather than the current president aiding a genocide.
Or to find out how important it is that Biden change course if he wants to win.
Fair enough. Honestly at this point it’s a humanitarian issue, not an electoral one.
In terms of the election, both candidates are bad for Gaza (Trump more so) and Trump is also bad on basically every other issue unless you’re a MAGA republican, rich or a fascist. Obviously any sane person must vote for Biden anyway.
In humanitarian terms, Biden’s response has been a total and utter disaster and anybody who values all human life equally should be disgusted with him. He has possibly the most leverage to change the situation of anybody outside Israel, so the question is, what type of person do you want to be? Do you want to be the person who stays all chummy with the one committing the vast majority of the atrocities and tries to shield him from criticism, or do you want to be the person who calls out injustice when he sees it? Because I am certain that he sees it.
For the election I do think he should be concerned that not all voters will be so pragmatic. But much more importantly he should do the right thing for the 2 million plus people that are currently suffering collective punishment because of the actions of a small minority of them. This isn’t about getting elected, it’s about respect for human life.
You said it much better than I could.
this is a bad faith reading of a basic ass fucking tenant of socialist theory. democrats, party of the educated, are feigning ignorance to try and silence dissent.
Remember kids, if you want to aid a genocide just make sure your enemy is an even bigger piece of shit than you are. No consequences! Morality? Never heard of her.
An enemy that will aid a genocide with even more enthusiasm and possibly help Russia start another one.
Good thing I’m not voting for him, either.
Yeah so ship those arms to the genocidal state! Feel your heart swell with pride as they count the dead children blown to pieces with bombs made in the US of A. Thank God it wasn’t Trump that sent them. That would be really awful
Thank God it wasn’t Trump that sent them
That’s true. Cause in addition to shipping arms, Trump and his cronies would also be trying to make life hell for women, LGBT community, and other minorities, and who the fuck knows what else.
Actually we do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
You can’t see the forest for trees.
Stop hyperventilating. Touch grass.
Biden shouldn’t have sent them at all.
I can see just fine. I see the support Biden gives to mass murder and am not blinded to this by the fact that Trump would give more. I’m slightly confused why this seems so difficult for some people to see? Supporting genocide is bad - is this a controversial take now?
Stop hyperventilating. Touch grass.
Pathetic. It might help you to imagine that I’m all worked up about this but I am not. I just think supporting genocide is a bad thing. Weird how so many people seem to drop their morals when there’s an election on the horizon. And by “weird” I mean “despicable.”
If you don’t vote Biden it’s not that you’re supporting that genocide, it’s that you’re supporting MORE genocide.
If you don’t vote Biden it’s not that you’re supporting that genocide, it’s that you’re supporting MORE genocide.
How so? Show your work.
Biden is the only candidate that has the potential to win other than Trump.
Trump supports Israel (first president to say that its capital is Jerusalem, says Israel needs to “finish the problem” with Gaza…) and he wants to stop support for Ukraine (enabling another genocide) and that’s not even getting into LGBTQ+ and POC rights erosions if he gets in power which is akin to wanting to make them disappear, i.e. another genocide.
If both options have the same stance on an issue, then you can not change the issue by voting.
Meaning, it is a non-voting issue and can not be used as an argument for voting.
Absolutely. Does that mean you shouldn’t criticise and push for a change of policy? The president of the United States is aiding a genocide. That should make every single American ashamed.
But yeah bOtH sIdEs!!1!!
No one who is critical of Biden (from the left) is saying he is as bad as trump, this is disingenuous
What the fuck? Yes they are, in this thread and thousands of others, every day.
They absolutely are. I have huge swathes of tankies blocked, and I still see this every fucking day.
Brace yourselves, hexbears wearing .world accounts are coming
Hate to break it to you, but not all leftist are on hexbear.
Saying somebody is from “hexbear” or a “tankie” is the new “communist” of American Liberals, deployed just like “communist” was in the old days when the chief of whatever political tribe they support does something which is pretty much Fascism and they can’t actually argue or justify it away.
I supposed that because of their position in politics is so much to the right and so far from the center, than American “moderates”/liberals invariably just see one big blob to their left mixing everything up to and including all the variants of Communism.
That said, this case is really special as even Center-Right people are against supporting the Nueu Holocaust being committed by Israel: one needs to be so far to the right to the point of being Nazi-adjacent to support this or those that support it.
If Putin was as supporting Israel, you hexbear bootlickers would be full critical support
Cheers for confirming my point so well!
“Guys, these hexbear users and tankies people are talking about seem to be obnoxious, reactionary, tribalistic assholes that unironically support oppressive regimes. Clearly people hating them is The Red Scare 2.0”
It’s the third Red Scare.
Not all leftists are stupid enough to believe that not voting for Biden is the better choice.
I moved from Reddit right into a .world account with leftist views. I didn’t even know what a hexbear was.
If you came from Reddit, it’s chapotraphouse. When they were banned they made a Lemmy. Same vaguely violent meme content.
I think there’s a difference between a “hexbear user” and a typical “leftist.”
A lot of their stuff reads like leftist versions of 4chan circlejerk insanity.
Oh I definitely know that now. They’re somehow more insane than the lemmingrad folks. Wild people.
I never heard of a hexbear before lemmy, and frankly, I don’t understand them. They don’t really seem to support any thing, they just actively don’t support things. They’re just negative about everything and basically, just annoying. They’re not on any political spectrum I understand
They’re essentially a Chapo Trap House fanbase whose main political discourse is antagonizing liberals. Outside of their instance they are probably being sarcastic, trolling, or flaming some generically lib take.
Naturally they’re hated by libs and many a story and mythology has been spun about them as the boogeyman.
So: they’re intentional assholes on the internet, and people resoundly find themselves shocked and surprised by that.
I didn’t understand them either, at first. The best way I can describe them is genuine, honest people who are passionate about leftist ideas of all kinds, that got caught in their own little socialism shitpost bubble for a time, and have now emerged. Again alive to the world of federated forums, they are either changing minds or pissing people off because they don’t pull their punches, and will argue for extreme action. They do this because they feel there’s no reason to play fair in a system so rigged against the masses.
I, for one, am glad my instance stayed federated with them.
Because they want to sow apathy, accelerating the collapse of society. At least that has been my experience whenever I have to engage in debate with them.
I really think they are accelerationists. I never hear any solutions oriented discussion.
Christ. ITT getting JAQed off.
Biden’s a piece of shit baby bomber thanks to Israel, but at least he’s not a rapist like trump, right?
Transparent AF.
ITT: “no one is making <argument x>, and everyone is making <argument y>; OP <agrees/disagrees> with me and therefore that makes OP <position z>”
nearly everyone here needs to pause, look around, and recognize that there is tremendous diversity to people and their worldviews. if you engage with every issue as a monolith, you become the monolith. but if you engage with people as what they are, individuals, you might actually get something done.
The card says moops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMabpBvtXr4
Whether or not complicit, these people are helping the alt-right make their case and win elections.
who are you referring to with “these people”?
i think i agree with you but your comment is a bit unclear sorry
ITT: “no one is making <argument x>, and everyone is making <argument y>; OP <agrees/disagrees> with me and therefore that makes OP <position z>”
People who say that.
yiss agree :)
Oh yes, those are Biden’s only problems. Certainly. Also that Israel stone fits on the screen so it ain’t big enough
Hexbear users incoming.
It puts the lotion on it’s skin or else it gets the hose again.
Fuck it. Y’all are gonna kill me anyhow.
Both sides are genocide enablers and should be trialed at The Hague, yes.
It’s insane that anyone is doing the work of defending either. We deserve significantly better.
We do. Unfortunately all we can vote for this year is whether we’ll have a 2028 election or if we’ll be a theocratic monarchy by then.
Yeah, I live in a state where the GOP will win regardless. So I will absolutely not waste my vote on either of these candidates.
Then maybe our system is fundamentally broken and we need to change it? If we are always one election away from the destruction of democracy and society there is something fucked up. I have heard the same rhetoric about every election in the last 30 years.
Imagine defending a mafioso or a murderer
“the democrats don’t have a cult” lie is falling apart.
“I don’t mind if we’re funding a genocide, but god forbid I face an inconvenience at home.”
The fear of scraping at the bottom of the barrel to keep that american exceptionalism on top rather than revolting against the system is somehow the better option.
“It’s not like a cycle of doom or anything as long as I don’t get inconvenienced.”
Here’s a fun game: ask a Democrat for one thing that Biden could do that would cause them to not vote for him.
What’s their deal-breaker? Where’s the line?
This is the thing I can’t believe 100% of the left isn’t screaming from the rooftops. Yes, we’ll all vote for Biden, but we’re going to have to live with the fact that we knowingly voted for a genocide supporter for the rest of our lives. Sure, we voted for the lesser genocide supporter, but that really shouldn’t matter to our own sense of disgust at ourselves.
Innocent people are dying, and my vote for the guy supplying the weapons that kill them will be the most shameful moment of my life. At least, I hope it will - I don’t have much faith at this point that I won’t be forced to do something even worse in 4 years. And 4 years after that. And 4 years after that…
I get what you’re saying, but this is the United States. We’ve been voting for genocide supporters for like our entire history…
That doesn’t make it right, but it’s not new by any means. The entire world deserves better than what we put forward time and time again :(
You’re absolutely right, but better late than never for people to finally start realizing it. This isn’t the time to be saying “It’s nothing new, move on,” it’s the time to be saying “It’s not even new! Get mad! Fight back!”
No, not better late than never. This is giving up. You’re talking better “too late” then “it doesn’t fucking matter any more.” Because we already fucking lost.
I agree that we lost through conventional voting means, but our country was born from people forced to fight to achieve the government they wanted, and we’re fully capable of doing it again. We’re haven’t been pushed into enough of a corner yet as a country for most people to get on board, but we’re getting there.
People need to stop thinking that the left “has a party.” The right has two parties and the left is trying desperately to stop one from going full authoritarian.
I will tell you what happens when the GOP is served a crushing blow. The people without any real beliefs, like the Trump humpers that voted Obama, come back and devour the DNC from the inside. The game is rigged and youre not a part of the game rigging club. Get use to eating shit and start voting like your friends and families lives depend on it.
100% of the Left in the US is probably only a couple % of the population. At that, I’d bet that not more than half of us even voted Democrat. Some I know voted Green in an effort to participate, but not participate in a two party election. Who fucking cares what we shout from the rooftops?
The fact of the matter is that voting green isn’t a real resolution to the issue, it’s just a way for someone to willingly not participate in the inevitable 2 party fight, while still saying they voted. The way the system works prevents any green party member from even being seen, much less meaningfully supported. And nobody voted in to one of the 2 major parties is going to change the system to make a 3rd party viable.
We no longer have a democracy - we’re meant to have the true freedom to vote for who we want and have that actually be a legitimate method for someone to win, but instead we’ve served up 2 shitty candidates and told to pick one. It’s no different than if a tyrannical monarch let us choose which of his 2 terrible children would become the next ruler after his death.
Now’s exactly the time to be shouting from the rooftops, because now’s exactly the time to start drumming up support for a resistance movement. We’re not there yet as a country, I know, but we’re heading there quick, and we should be getting people used to the idea that we have other options than voting for genocide supporter #1 or #2.
If you call yourself left but then don’t vote Democrat (mainly in the current times, in the past it wasn’t as dire to be fair) you’re either lying about being left or are too stupid to understand how our terrible political system works.
We really need to figure out how to get ranked choice voting implemented
It’s possible that YOU deserve better. But WE… dog we vote for this, we chose this.
There is no nefarious conspiracy, our democracy has problems but, by and large, we get what we chose.
Unfortunately, YOU, and I share this country with 350M people and the majority of them fucking love this shit.
dog we vote for this
Half the joke on this.
“Well, now that Biden sucks, I’m not going to vote for him.”
“NOOOOOO! YOU HAVE TO VOTE! DONDALD DRUMPF!!!”
“Okay, fine. I’ll vote for him.”
“Aha. So now you can’t complain!”
Well I was more talking about the parties generously allowing us to participate in the primary process in a democratic way.
BUT, there isn’t going to be a party primary when you have a sitting president in this country. It’s suicide. Voters did choose Joe Biden in 2020. Voters in the GOP chose DT in ‘16 and ‘24.
There isn’t some massive constituency out there hoping for young leftists that got screwed by “the man”. They got washed out by voters who do not want that. I say this all the time on this website. You have to build that constituency from the bottom up. Ignore the presidency for a few cycles and fill your school board and state house with progressives. The party will follow the voters. That is the way it works.
There isn’t some massive constituency out there hoping for young leftists that got screwed by “the man”.
Just the majority of California Democrats. But other than that, basically nobody.
The same people that sent Dianne Feinstein to the senate until she died in office?
Yeah…
Or Kamala, for that matter. But no leftist candidate in California had access to the kind of funds that either Kamala’s or Feinstein’s campaign enjoyed. Very difficult to establish yourself as a known quantity without decades of name recognition and tens of millions of dollars in your war chest.
The Sanders campaign was exceptional in large part thanks to their prodigious fundraising capacity. Also helped that he received over a decade of positive media coverage, plus ample coverage during the Bush Era as a reliable opposition to Bush policy. LA City Council candidates Nithya Raman and Ysabel Jurado had significant success thanks to their own success raising tons of campaign cash.
And this isn’t unique to California. When leftist candidates can find a pool of enthusiastic fund raisers and receptive media coverage, they quickly rise to the top of the pile in crowded races.
we chose this.
Did “we”? If you had to describe someone who voted for Biden in the primaries what would be some of your guesses? You think a bunch of millenials got together and were like “Yeah! Old white man who’s blocked progressive and leftist policies for his entire political career! That’s our guy!”
Yeah. That’s the point. that group you described is a minority in the party.
TBH, older black women put Biden in front in 2020. The same women who saved us from a GOP controlled senate when they came out in force in GA.
If you want to understand the Democratic Party ask a 75 YO black lady who hasn’t missed an election or a church service in her life what her priorities are.
TBH, older black women put Biden in front in 2020.
Source?
EDIT: I see someone took the time to downvote me but didn’t provide a source. Is that because demographic information isn’t provided by the DNC for primary results and this claim is completely made up?
Dig up some exit polls from the 2020 SC dem primary. My statement was based on my recollection from the time. But that is what I was referencing.
You’re claiming black women elected Biden in the 2020 primaries because they helped him win in one state?
I wasn’t able to find good data of the age breakdown, but here’s an editorial with a bunch of statistics that claims black women are what put Biden in office. So I’d rate OP’s claim as “plausible” only because we know that old people vote more than young people.
This article is about the general election. We’re talking about the primaries.
Sorry, missed that. Here’s some demographic information from CNN broken down by state. After looking at a few of the states, Bernie’s base was absolutely white people under age 45, as Biden won all the other demographic groups.
I’m always surprised there are people out there who just don’t seem to follow the news of who they think ‘isn’t all that bad’ over ‘yes he’s that bad’ kinda shit that is easy to find. The guy is in the news constantly for a reason.
The guy is in the news constantly for a reason.
They’ve convinced themselves that it’s because he’s so great
It’s also news exhaustion. We shouldn’t be having to constantly talk and look into it. But it sells. So they keep selling it.
