It is a bad idea to trust and rely on Ameeica. Some Afgans learned this lesson in 2021, the same is happening to Ukraine now.
Ukraine rely on a lot more than just the USA. But what else can they do? It’s either that or they get annexed.
Their are a small country versus a world power.
The region doesn’t rely on the US, the post-2014 fascist government that doesn’t care about the wishes of eastern Ukrainians does.
There wasn’t a problem here until the US-backed coup in 2014 and subsequent killing of eastern Ukrainians and Crimeans (if you’re wondering why Crimeans overwhelmingly support Russia) by the coup gov for resisting, which also doesn’t respect the Minsk agreements to stay neutral.
fascist
You mean Putin?
No yew
Many such cases!
Gaddafi’s is just sad. Such a terrible decision to give up their nuclear deterrence and trust western governments.
Nukes are why the DPRK hasn’t been invaded again, and why it hasn’t ended up Libya is now.
Ukraine gave up their nukes in exchange for peace with Russia, then got invaded by Russia.
Ukraine was very much at peace with Russia as it always had been before the 2014 coup and the resulting fascist gov that didn’t care about such agreements.
The fascist government is the one invading Ukraine, my guy.
How many times are we going to go over this, my guy?
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- The Conversation, 2022: Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia
OK, there are fascists in Ukraine, like in a lot of countries. How does it give Russia the right to invade and carry out a genocide?
they weren’t ukrainian nukes. they were soviet nukes and ukraine didn’t have the money or expertise to take care of them.
I wouldn’t put it that way exactly. Ukraine was a constituent part of the USSR, and eastern Ukraine was a major industrial hub. I don’t know the history of it, but perhaps giving the nukes to Russia was part of the deal made in the Post-Soviet transition in Ukraine.
Russia inherited the Soviet military for the most part. It’s unlikely that Ukraine could have used those nukes in the first place.
Sad, but true
Gaddafi is another example yes, but let’s not have any sympathy for a horrible dictator that tortured and abused his subjects to the point where they sodomized him with a bayonet.
Gaddafi was a leader in the liberation struggle against the Global North’s imperialism.
It was Gaddafi who was sodomized with a bayonet. Wikipedia: Killing of Muammar Gaddafi
The NTC initially claimed Gaddafi died from injuries sustained in a firefight when loyalist forces attempted to free him, although a video of his last moments shows rebel fighters beating him and one of them sodomizing him with a bayonet before he was shot several times.
In typical US fashion, it fabricated atrocities as a pretext for regime change: 2011 Libyan rape allegations
Three women, loads of lies and the destruction of Libya
Hillary Clinton, Susan Rice and Samantha Power were the three principal advocates of war against Libya in 2011, setting the North African nation on a free fall ever since. Demonstrations broke out in some Libyan cities against the government of late Muammar Gaddafi in February 2011, in what became known as the “Arab Spring” that engulfed the region. However, Libya’s promised spring turned into a destructive autumn during which Gaddafi was murdered on 20 October, 2011, and Libya was left anguishing in lawlessness, courtesy of the three women.
The US does this all the time; it’s still doing it. The blueprint of regime change operations
Fight for “democracy” /s
subjects
You mean insurgents funded by the west after having them give up their nuclear deterrence because it posed a major threat to capitalism/imperialism in the region.
Libya went from one of the poorest countries in the world to having the highest human development index in Africa by 2010 under the socialist government. Housing and healthcare were made a human right and youth literacy reached pretty much 100%.
Yes, I’ll have sympathy for the country that was basically extorted by the west through brutal sanctions into disarming itself so it could be invaded and destroyed, as any human should.
He made it better for Arabs, everyone else was treated horribly. But hey I guess being a dictator is fine as long as the people you like are being treated okay and fuck everyone else. How very Modi of you.
He made it better for Arabs, everyone else was treated horribly.
Who was everyone else?
But hey I guess being a dictator
Libya in Gaddafi’s time was more democratic than the United States has ever been. Libya: How To Kill a Nation
When Five Eyes governments and corporate media tell you that someone’s a “dictator,” they do it to manufacture consent for regime change.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
[citation needed]
Did Libya have a substantial development program?
Ukraine is going to lose with aid, all giving them more money does is allow them to not negotiate for longer.
Negotiate what? If they would consent to their genocide?
Sure thing!
I’m going to claim my neighbor’s pool as mine, and when they call the cops I’ll blame them for not being willing to negotiate.
False comparison.
Short answer.
It was, I cant really say much about an unrelated hypothetical.
Except that it’s a false comparison with zero explanation. Just enough text to know I should dismiss your opinion.
Good job.
Thank you!
If you think Ukraine won’t muster a guerilla resistance fierce enough to make France blush you haven’t been paying attention.
It’s not like Russia haven’t dealt with those before…
That isnt really relevant because Russia would get what they are looking for in the end no matter how much of a resistance there is. All they need to do is finish off their army, and not allow a new government to form and they have achieved their goal.
Russia has controlled Crimea for a decade. Where’s that resistance?
What makes you think their gonna start now after it’s been going for more than two years and there even having trouble conscripting in western Ukraine ?
If they’ve ran out of volunteers in the more nationalist west how are they going to find them in the occupied territories where patriotism to Ukraine has always been lower?
Because you have to be occupied before you can do guerilla resistance? Also because guerilla activities require fewer personnel than an armed mobilization?
If Ukraine fell to invasion, as in like their lines collapse and they lose the territory they’re currently holding, now every Ukrainian who might consider fighting is already behind enemy lines. Instead of being concentrated physically and very obviously defending themselves you’d have a very pissed off post-invasion population able to act inside of occupied territory. Look at the resistance fighters in occupied France in WWII. Putin isn’t going to have an easy time even if he manages to push an invasion force through.
Good luck holding a country that fights as hard as Ukraine.
I thought that’s what Russians/Republicans were banking on?
Ukraine is already losing and unless something crazy happens they will lose.
I was wondering how the media was going to explain the collapse in Ukraine when it finally becomes impossible to hide it, and now we know. The whole thing is going to be blamed on republicans holding up money in congress, as if pouring another 61 billion after all the untold billions that were already poured into this was going to make any difference. The fact that people genuinely believe this is frankly depressing. It shows just how utterly credulous and mentally deficient western public is.
Can’t wait until this shit is over so that all the shit-for-brains boomers finally take down all their stupid flags.
NATO is seeking to take control of decision-making powers on future aid packages — normally led by the US — in an effort to limit the impact of a potential second Donald Trump presidency on the ongoing conflict.
This is wild. It’s bad enough that the US president has the power to start wars wherever he wants with no congressional approval. But now they’re trying to make it so that the only people with the authority to withdraw from a conflict are unelected NATO officials accountable to no one.
Dronies will support this, because they love endless war across the globe and want to remove any potential for popular support to achieve peace.
And who’s gonna die this time
Biden frantically sends more aid to israel
It’s not his money I don’t he really care where they get wasted
Biden’s aimed to send aid to both.
Only bypassed Congress and did secret deals for israel.
Bollocks. Congress was totally on board, supporting Israel far past the point they deserve is one of the few mostly bipartisan issues in the US
This framing makes it seem like Biden is going against the majority congressional sentiment, but he is not. The US congress, overall, is supportive of sending military support to Israel, as evidenced by their passing bills other aid bills, which is a slower process.
People in this thread clearly don’t understand what the implications are. There is a very clear danger of war on the European continent that will involve NATO and by proxy the US. Aid for Ukraine is the absolute cheapest option. Europe is not going to just let Ukraine fall and will ramp up their involvement. We already have France willing to send troops.
Aid for Ukraine is the absolute cheapest option
One who consider a proxy war where thousand people die and a country get destroyed the “cheapest option” tells you how much they are in bad faith. For politicians your life is indeed cheap and something they can trash away for profits
This is a delicate situation. If a NATO country is sending troops to Ukraine, it will escalate the war into a full blown world war.
We know what happened in both world wars, so there is no good answers here.
The answer is the west won. Presumably a good answer
Anglo dominance over the world is why the world is ending. Y’all are fucking shit stewards of a planet.
The good answer is not seeking war and destruction
Yeah, but Russia invaded Ukraine. So what should be done now.
If left to their own devices, Ukraine would be annexed to Russia and surrounding countries would be next. The casualties would probably be less here (not guaranteed) and the quality of life of the Ukrainians would drastically degrade.
If NATO sends boots on the ground, then it becomes a full blown world war with warring countries having lots of nukes. The casualties are enormous with a potential doomsday scenario.
Right now, NATO finance a proxy war. Ukrainians fight back and hard to shut out Russians. They need the tech and financing to do so. If they don’t have it, Russia takes over and we go back to the first scenario. Casualties are high.
There is no good ending where Russia negotiate peace and return home. War fucking sucks, and there is no good answer.
Yeah, but Russia invaded Ukraine. So what should be done now.
What about putting sanction on china for providing russia weapons or on emirates and turkey for allowing russian to just chill there and bypass restrictions?
If left to their own devices, Ukraine would be annexed to Russia and surrounding countries would be next.
Where do you got this from? Is Israel planning to invade the whole middle east after they invaded gaza?
the quality of life of the Ukrainians would drastically degrade.
Would it actually? Ukraine turned into an authoritatian regime under martial law where no man between 18 and 60 can leave the country. There’s probably many brave ukranians fighting for freedom but it’s the ukranian government getting money and weapons.
The casualties are already high and the country is getting destroyed, it’s just not happening in your garden
Generally, I’d agree with that sentiment. However, what path forward would provide the best way out of the situation and discourage further conflict in the region?
When we look at the lead up to WW2, we see a build-up of tension by Germany and attempted appeasement by the other major powers in an effort to avoid another breakout of war in Europe, only a few decades after the first great war ravaged these nations.
Notable events:
- Remilitarization of the Rhineland (Mar 1936) – this was a clear power move and violation of the Treaty of Versailles that ended WW1. With no real reaction from the France/Britain, this was a clear indication to Hitler he could continue to push things much further.
- Anschluss (Annexation of Austria, Mar 1938) - Germany was prepared to take Austria by force, but managed to do so with only the threat of violence. This was also against the Treaty of Versailles and also had no real reaction from the Allied powers.
- Sudetenland conquest (Sept 1938) - Germany pressures Czechoslovakia for pieces of it’s territory that border Germany. British PM finally gets involved, allowing the exchange of territory for a promise of peace. This is the famous " Peace for our time declaration.
- Annexation of territory from Lithuania (Mar 1939) - Lithuania pressed to give up territory under threat of war.
- Czech/Slovokia split and occupation/control (Mar 1939) - Under further pressure and threat of invasion, Czechoslovakia split and both come under German control.
- Invasion of Poland by Germany and USSR (Sept 1939) - First open conflict. France and Britain declare war on Germany, roughly a year after the “Peace for our time” negotiations/declaration that clearly made a difference!
As you can see, in the build-up to WW2, the European powers that opposed German expansion sought alternatives. They even allowed Germany to push its weight around on its neighbors, taking territory from others, and consolidating power. By the time the great powers were forced into conflict by open war in Poland, they were no longer in a position to hope to control Germany at all, doubly so with their apparent new cooperation with the USSR.
Knowing what happened, it’s easy to see that any intervention by France and/or Britain, whether it sparked violence or not, in the early days of German aggression would have almost certainly led to a less powerful Germany, perhaps one that could not have taken over most of Europe so easily.
I think the key take away from all of this is that, modern nations that have a desire for conquest are a danger to all. They are not to be believed, they should not be appeased, they should not be rewarded. Any violence against free nations should be resisted, supported by all free nations, but without escalation to full-blown nuclear war.
The danger of washing our hands of the conflict and saying something like, “Violence bad. End the war. They can have Ukraine/Donetsk/whatever.” is that Russia won’t stop there. They’ll get bigger, stronger, and move on to the next target when they’re ready.
The horrible part about all of this is that the apparent best way to keep long-term violence down is to continue the fighting now. The longer the conflict continues, and the more humiliated Russia becomes, the less likely Russia will chose to do a similar invasion in the future.
Generally, I’d agree with that sentiment. However, what path forward would provide the best way out of the situation and discourage further conflict in the region?
Stopping the war industry and ceasing all sort of imperialistic activities, even on one side alone will put at end on most conflicts but every ruler is in for more wealth and power, they don’t want to stop. This does not mean that because someone is doing it everyone has to follow suit, it literally means that every corrupted politician and their government seek war.
If there’s anything to be extrapolated from history is that ramping up for war and fueling authoritarian regimes brings you exactly war and dictatorships.
Any violence against free nations should be resisted
So do you agree that palestine should have the rights to defend themself against israel?
The danger of washing our hands
If there’s anyone washing their hands is politicians drinking champagne in dubai next to russian yachts. The same politicians that send people money to ukraine goverement.
So no aid to Ukraine and show Russia that it can indeed start wars where thousands die and destroy countries, without negative consequences?
Where are the negative consequences for America? Why can America invade any country it wants and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children but for some reason when Russia does it we have to show them they aren’t allowed?
Only America and its allies can start wars and commit genocides?
Classic whataboutism.
Because the US does interventionism, fund far-right politicians, etc., Russia (and China) can do as such, and even more. At least the US doesn’t want to “regain it’s old lost territories”.
I didn’t condone the USA’s actions, and it’s clear from your comment that you assume I would. It’s clear to me who is the aggressor in this conflict between Ukraine and Russia, and it’s not Ukraine.
Don’t let your disdain for one imperialist push you over to another.
As long as it doesn’t mess up with their business no government in the world care if russia starts a war. Where’s the aid to gaza as a genocide is happening at the hands of israel? War is a business and politicians wants more of it
I’m not talking about just money. Of course in current capitalist society we analyse through the lens of finances. But obviously the cost of war includes the loss of human life. And of course some people will manage to profit financially from war. This isn’t a revolutionary thought.
What I mean is that due to the obligation of being a NATO member, there is no way around having to join war in the EU. Actual boots on the ground, full blown, war machine goes choo-choo war. That costs many hundreds or even thousands of American lives. And yes, billions a day.
If you don’t want that, then having Putin lose in Ukraine in key. It’s key because it will diminish his political backing in Russia.
That costs many hundreds or even thousands of American lives.
Better dispose of the ukrainians instead
America isn’t disposing anybody. Russia is.
the US is already involved by proxy
But Amarica bad, hypercapitalist dictator good.
You don’t understand that the only danger of further war is again from US/NATO. Europe is going to let Ukraine fall because it has no choice. France is a laughing stock. Even what they threatened to send could do nothing.
Comment from the Torygrapgh readership:
@LarkinDePark @Alsjemenou because appeasement totally works with dictators and lebensraum
I honestly don’t think Zelensky is a Nazi. He may be an open Nazi collaborator but I think he sees that as a necessity. Dictator yes, but lebensraum? You mean with the breakaways?
@LarkinDePark appeasing putin with the slaughter of Kyiv won’t stop him from taking the transinistra.
putin needs to be stopped.
How do the people of Transinistria feel about this?
“By proxy” doesn’t change the nature of what he is. Collaboration is complicity. If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis.
Ok genocidaire
Eat shit
Lose away bozo, you got played
will the neonazis kill him right away or wait til he has been living in Miami for awhile?
My money’s on ‘on the airstrip trying to flee’.
Guessing none of the other nations are doing anything either
“It may be dangerous to be America’s enemy, but to be America’s friend is fatal.”
The free world loses when Russia wins.
It’s pretty much an invitation to China to do the same in Taiwan and an invitation for Russia to start more wars in eastern Europe…
Helping Ukraine costs money. Not helping Ukraine costs even more.
The free world 😂 Okay boomer 🇺🇸 🦅
China has been bullying the Philippines too, out of our own territorial waters, and they have already caused severe injuries to our countrymen. They literally want our entire western Philippine sea. Just look at their nine dash line and they want to have the waters right beside Palawan.
severe injuries to our countrymen
It was recently on local news, but that’s not the only conflict that involved water cannons and ships. From the article you can see Vietnam— they once saved filipino fishermen from potentially drowning. (from Philippines) https://www.rappler.com/nation/233079-how-filipino-boat-crew-was-saved-west-philippine-sea/ (from Vietnam) https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/all-gestures-no-words-as-vietnamese-fishermen-saved-22-filipinos-3940276.html. If china continues their actions, there are bound to be casualties. And if that happens, I’m not sure any of us will forgive them.
Does the free world also include places America has invaded or bombed?
Japan, SK, and Germany seem on board with aid to Ukraine… So yes
Three formerly fascist states join Ukraine
“formerly” fuckin lmao
The fuck is your point?
He would rather a current fascist state join them
Liberals understanding fascism challenge (impossible) https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Fascism
Meanwhile, in Ukraine…
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- The Conversation, 2022: Ukraine war follows decades of warnings that NATO expansion into Eastern Europe could provoke Russia
.
Fascism didn’t suddenly appear in 2014, either, it’s been there this whole time.- The History of Fascism in Ukraine Part I: The Origins of the OUN 1917-1941
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part II: The OUN during World War 2, 1941-1945
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part III: 1944-1963 UPA War, Ratlines, and the Assassination of Stepan Bandera
- History of Fascism in Ukraine Part IV: The Global OUN Network in Exile, 1962-1992
- The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
“free world” has the same weight here as “state’s rights”
Downvote and move on, but just like the American genocide in Iraq, you will realize I’m right in ~20 years
wait, you are not being ironical?
how the fuck do you manage to claim that the west is the free world™ while it is the empire to blame for the largest amount of worldwide suffering in the second half of the twentieth century? It is responsible for countless invasions, sanction regimes and assassinations with the goal of subjugating foreign nations, as well as courting nazis post ww2, like for example people like klaus barbie or wernher von braun, as well as the entire early government of the frg.
your fantasizing about a supposed military threat from the prc to taiwan and from russia to the rest of europe is nothing but pure projection, since you westoids apparently cant imagine someone acting from a different motivation than your own. the prc has time and time again stated that it prefers a peaceful resolution to the taiwan conflict and the province has never officially declared any grade of independence from the mainland, simply being under a different government, the roc.
russia on the other hand has absolutely no reason to start any military conflicts in western europe, something you would know, if you would even try to understand the lead up to the current situation.
your last sentence honestly just sounds like a thinly veiled blood for the blood god.
China doesn’t pose a threat to Taiwan? JFC China disagrees with you
you could try to actually read what china says on the topic, instead of deapthroating american propaganda.
FWIW, there are plenty of politicians in Europe who disagree with you, it’s not an American take, here’s a quote from Lithuania’s PM:
“the outcome of this fight in Ukraine is crucial for Europe.”
“If Putin is not stopped in Ukraine, then whatever happens next is Europe’s problem at large,” she said. https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-not-stopped-in-ukraine-all-europe-problem-lithuania-pm-2024-3?op=1
lithuania, like all the baltic states, is a us puppet state. also they are so obviously fascist that they even erect monuments to literal nazis.
Okay, now come up with an excuse for Germany:
https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-and-ukraine-sign-security-agreement-scholz-zelenskyy/
Also if Europe isn’t concerned about Russia, why has Europe’s defense spending drastically gone up? Clearly there is more going on than your blase attitude is implying.
Fuck off with your Putin propaganda.
imnotfromkaliningrad’s comment includes reasoning and it’s obviously their opinion. Meanwhile yours is the propaganda verbatim with no analysis and no reasoning.
sadly, even if you follow russian propaganda to the word, which i dont btw, you would still more often than than not end up with the truth. maybe the west should try to be less evil.
Found this video about how Americans live. North Korean propaganda says we eat birds. All countries distort the truth, even ‘Merica. I wish more people understood this.
the video was actually not made by north korea. it is a parody created by a british comedy director. dprk media typically depicts the us in a fairly accurate manner, or at least more truthfully than how american media portrays korea.
I’m so gullible. I wanted to make coffee out of snow after this video. I thought this was real too, until my wife told me it had to be fake. I wanted it to be real.
i feel ya, western propaganda against korea is sadly hard to undo, considering the sheer amount of it. a great way to do it through is to read korean history, with a wonderful beginners read on the topic being this book. after a while you realize that many of the claims against the dprk are often nothing but simple projection, like for example haircut policing being an actual thing in 1980s south korea.
Notice how you didn’t address anything in their comment because there’s no argument against it.
I didn’t addressed anything because the whole comment is a load of bullshit.
Like your comment?
Calling things “Russian propaganda” or “Hamas” instead of thinking critically and engaging is an instant win card, didn’t you know?
Building weapons and empowering authoritarian regimes is an invitation for anyone for more wars.
Helping Ukraine only costs money if you dump money and weapons at it instead of providing actual help.
You mean the “free world” that has Assange, Pablo González and lots of other journalists jailed? The same free world that has destroyed every country that didn’t fall in line with US interests?
The free world loses when Russia wins.
Where exactly is the free world? I assume you’re not referring to the bloc of nations currently exterminating the population of their 2 million person concentration camps; the bloc led by the nation with the highest prison population in the world, both in absolute and per capita terms. The bloc that has destroyed, invaded, and couped multiple countries in the past twenty years.
Russia is way worse. I’m in Hungary, and our government tries everything to scrub information about stuff they don’t like, all while putting Project 2025-tier evil stuff into our constitution, meaning it could be pretty much be undone by an armed rebellion, which will very unlikely thanks to what I call “weaponized doomerism” (pushing people into inaction via depression, crushed protests, and underfunded health care system), and “political gaslighting” (basically the method behind “you’ll be more conservative as you get older”).
Removed by mod
Ok, Karen…
The free world loses when Russia wins.
I’d pay good money to watch the Anglos crash and burn tbh. Like, PPV amounts of money. At this point it might be the only way to avert climate collapse; if possible at all, and I have no material reason to want to see you propagate or prosper. Die faster; and do a backflip on your way down.
K
