Alrighty,
So your system knows the exact situation and still is slowing down my bike, just at the moment I need to accelerate to avoid being overrun by that large truck heading into me.
How stupid are these folks? We’ve got rules, when people don’t follow those rules, you fine them. Case closed.
No system to prevent a bike speeding, teach people to obey the law.
Same with speed-limiters for cars, etc.
I wish cars would get speed limiters installed. Trucks and trailers especially, why does a truck try and overtake a car anyway? Or another truck?
Why stop only at e-bikes? Get them installed inside mobility scooters as well, slow down Grandma!
There are no US roads I am aware of where the speed limit is over 80mph.
Why can a stock US car go faster than 80mph, then? Why does NHSTA approve of cars that can go double, triple that speed? Makes no sense to me, for sure. Especially when similar agencies are doing idiotic and pointless shit like banning Kei Trucks for “safety” reasons when these vehicles are objectively safer and better for the public than any current-model “light truck” 120mph+ road yacht.
Europe approached this same question with a pretty straightforward answer: Intelligent Speed Assistance.
It’ll be mandatory relatively soon for all new cars, as far as I am aware. It’s already mandatory for new cars in the EU. There’s some nasty privacy implications of it, obviously. Very possibly nasty enough to bring me to a “no” overall on the idea. But the safety considerations are without doubt correct.I didn’t know that, sounds incredibly dystopian tbh. Guess I’ll have to keep my dinosaur of a car running as long as possible.
Always good to get the US perspective on an article about Amsterdam
We Europeans often share our view on US’s business, and you want to gatekeep Americans from sharing their view on European’s stuff? The whole point of a link aggregator with comments is people sharing their view.
Intelligent Speed Assistance is great, went to Spain a few years back and essentially the car would know the limit of each road and give you a little signal/sound each time you went over. Great feature tbh, took about a day to get used to it at first but after that it was smooth sailing.
Texas has a toll road with an 85 mph speed limit https://www.foxnews.com/auto/texas-opens-highway-with-85-mph-speed-limit-fastest-in-america-is-it-too-fast
First, you have to catch them. Without plates on the bike, they become anonymous asap.
Secondly, you need to understand us Dutch. Rules are for the Germans, as it’s always smart to ask forgiveness than permission (read: catch us if you can)
Was amazed that the ebikes in Switzerland have number plates.
Then realised it’s Switzerland and of course they do
Oh, it’s coming for more countries. In Spain no new ebike/scooter is sold without plates since 2024, and in 2027 it will be illegal to go through puvlic spaces without a licensed plate. This 3 year gap is so that people that bought a scooter in 2023 don’t feel too cheated out.
For anyone that might be interested in this: it’s only for certain ebikes. Standard ebikes that only pedal assist up to 25km/h don’t need anything special over a regular bike, which afaik is the standard limit in Europe. You can get ebikes that go up to 45km/h and they are regulated more like mopeds, requiring a number plate, rear view mirror, and that the rider wears a helmet.
Anything motorised that’s used in traffic should have license plate to be fair. Kudos to the Swiss
I see the German Maneuver app coming for e-bike, soon™️.
Is this the same system they use to slow down basically everything at AMS? Like seriously, that’s the worst, dirtiest major international airport I’ve ever had the misfortune of having to use.
We’ve got that here. You jam a stick in the spokes, then throw the bike and the rider in the canal. Lots of fun.
This seems ripe for workarounds.
It’s not too complicated to fix a motor to your normal bicycle. I wonder how well this will implemented.
That said I’m surprised this is coming from Amsterdam, considering they’re both very pro bike. And I also see very little controversy coming from the Netherlands in general (farm laws primarily)
Very pro bike but only bike. Pretty much any other modality device is banned from public bike paths.
Overcontroll of citizens free will. A recurrent problem in northem europe. Because the goverment knows your safety and ethics better than yourself. And as some people view it:
Because of that they have the right to force your actions into what works best with society. Because individuals don’t matter just collectives. Because enforcing is justified as long as it has an ethic basis, whatever it is.
It sounds dystopian and it is. Societies of the penitence, societes with ideals more religious than real religions. Where suicide rates are high, and society happines also is.
Yeah, it should be more like America, land of the free and happy, where suicide rates are lower!
The speed limits they listed seem so low given that 90% of bicycles in Amsterdam (or at least, those that are “victims” in traffic accidents) are unpowered. I’m not even a hobbyist cyclist, but on my (unpowered) entry-level hybrid bicycle I rode faster than 25 km/h (or 15 mph) the last time I took it out… and heck, I can run faster than 15 km/h.
The accident stats also don’t back up the idea that e-bikes are a problem demanding regulation, which makes me think that there’s knee-jerk politics at play here rather than this being a clear-headed response to a real problem. I’ll explain how I arrived at that conclusion.
First of all, as an aside, it’s weird that they said “more than half of all traffic victims were on a bicycle,” when the metric here should be the number of traffic collisions caused by cyclists. But supposing that’s actually what they meant:
- if half of all accidents are caused by bicycles, then the other half are caused by cars and other motor vehicles. Since bicycles outnumber cars 4:1 in Amsterdam, that means cars are 4 times as likely to cause accidents as bicycles (startling low compared to how much more dangerous they are in the US). They recently lowered the speed limit of cars to 30 km/h, but I’m not sure if the stats take that into account. Maybe it needs lowered further, or maybe they should only allow cars with the same sort of smart governors installed that they’re testing out for e-bikes?
- One in ten of those cyclists was on an electric bike (meaning 5% of accidents were caused by someone on an e-bike). 57% of bicycles sold in the Netherlands in 2022 were electric, but bikes last a while and they have a ton of them. As of the start of 2023 they had an estimated 5 million e-bikes, and the country has 23 million bicycles total (more than 1 per person). This means that 22% of their bikes are e-bikes, and (assuming that ratio applies to bikes on the road in Amsterdam) then given that only 10% of accidents involving bicycles involved e-bikes, that means that unpowered bicycles are a bit over twice as likely to cause accidents as e-bikes. Honestly, though, the ratio of e-bikes to unpowered bicycles is probably higher - I would expect people are more inclined to ride the new bicycle they just bought rather than one of the ones they’ve had for several years.
Obviously these stats are fairly sloppy, but I worked with what I could find.
Assuming my conclusion is accurate, this still doesn’t mean that e-bikes are less dangerous than bicycles - the accidents they’re in may be worse - but it certainly doesn’t suggest that e-bikes are the problem. I’m aligned with the other commenters here - this isn’t going to address the problem of people riding already illegal e-bikes.
The tech sounds cool and I’d love if it could be applied to cars, too, even if it’s opt-in only.
The US has several proposals for this on cars. You say opt in only. How about this: when you exceed the speed limit the car automatically notifies the government so they can find you. You can opt-in to have the car automatically control you top speed so you don’t get fined.
The tech I’m talking about isn’t related to speed limits, but zones where pedestrians, particularly children, are much more likely to be in the street.
when you exceed the speed limit the car automatically notifies the government so they can find you.
I assume you meant “fine”; regardless, why is there a need for that in order to enable the second piece?
You can opt-in to have the car automatically control you top speed so you don’t get fined.
Change that to “You can enable a feature that will automatically reduce your set cruising speed (or, if you’re not using cruise control at that point, give you tactile feedback on the accelerator foot pedal) when you enter an area where pedestrians are in the street or are expected to be in the street (i.e., there’s a cross walk up ahead and a pedestrian has triggered it).” Or, to summarize similar to what you said: “You can have the car automatically reduce your speed when necessary so you don’t kill people.”
The “zones” should have lower speed limits. That is a traffic engineering problem.
The need for the opt in process is to counter the (stupid) arguments of I need to be able to drive fast to get my grandma to the hospital.
You don’t need “tactal feedback.” You need to limit the speed of the vehicle, like a rev limiter. Why do you need the ability to break the law?
I can easily ride my bike at 25-30km/h on flat even surface.
Light hills are more difficult on the long run but I can probably manage 20km/h.Edit:
A relative worked in the ER so I have some ideas why e-bikes are maybe more prone to accidents. My theory: Older folks.
The usual demographic driving e-bikes usually are/were +50 years old.
With reflexes being not what they were and them going out more due to being mobile again, they surely are more prone to be involved in traffic accidents.Makes sense, and is aligned with the “reduced barrier to entry” theory posited by another commenter. Just to be clear, though, what I read (though very imperfect stat-wise) suggests that e-bikes are less prone to accidents, not more.
25 km/h is a sporty bike ride tempo, not a going to the shops to get some food bike ride tempo. Especially considering that most bikes here are upright sitting city bikes rather than sporty, leaning forward bikes.
I have a step through frame that you sit upright on. 20-25km/h is my average commuting speed for getting to work and going to the shops. I regularly have to push to 30km/h+ because of motor traffic trying to ride up my ass even though I’m in the designated bike lane. (cars in Australia like driving fast in the bike lanes to avoid the chicanes on the road designed to slow motor traffic for cyclist safety)
If ebikes are disproportionately represented in cycling accidents, then I would argue it’s not the speed, it’s the barrier to entry. People who have never ridden before, people who aren’t physically able to ride a standard bike, these groups make up a significant portion of ebike riders because ebikes are accessible.
Yes, speed will contribute to this, people with limited riding experience being able to ride fast, possibly without the physical fitness required to control a bike at high speed.
The issue then isn’t the speed itself, but rider education and training.
If ebikes are disproportionately represented in cycling accidents
To be clear, based off the (incomplete) data I have, it looks like e-bikes are under-represented. 22% of bicycles are e-bikes and e-bikes only make up 10% of cycling accidents.
It’s possible the 10% stat was of total accidents, making it 20% of cycling accidents, meaning they’d be properly represented. Or maybe the stat is from multiple years ago, when e-bikes made up 10% or less of bikes on the road. Or both, in which case they would be over-represented, at which point it would at least make sense to include the stat.
If they are over-represented, what you said would make sense! And at that point, I would think it would be most effective to focus on providing more opportunities for training and education to riders. Maybe they’re already doing that, too, and this is just one more thing they’re exploring.
So, implement it in cars… Lethal machines that need to be limited.
Headline 5 years from now, “Dutch hackers sit at outdoor cafes and boost bikers’ pedal control, causing havoc and lulz”.
In much of the EU, a terrorist org or nation state could cause tens of thousands of casualties using a system like this in a matter of minutes.
All they’d have to do is accelerate every bike to top speed at one during peak time. Even if remote acceleration is impossible (or not yet exploited), you could still do a-lot of damage with threshold changes or sudden braking; any remote intervention is a safety and security risk.
“Speed limit enforced by aircraft”
I want “traffic laws enforced by sniper”.
The usual “too many people are getting hit by cars while on bicycles, obviously it’s the bicycles that are the problem”
If ebikes that go over 25kmh are already illegal, why would those ebikes have this speed limiter module installed?
Why are ebikes are not allowed to go fast enough to just ride on the road with cars, making it much safer for pedestrians and for the ebikes?
According to Paul Timmer of the Townmaking Institute, getting the device working on all e-bikes should be pretty straightforward. “There are five manufacturers and suppliers of motors for electric bicycles. They all work with similar systems,”
Also completely false, are they going to make it illegal to buy ebikes that don’t come with those 5 drive systems from large corporations, and shut out the small businesses that make ebike motors?
The article also describes this working on lower speed limits like close to schools or when approaching worksites. I can’t see why this is not a good idea
I can’t see why this is not a good idea
I believe the argument here is that it’s security theater, i.e it looks positive but in practice has literally no effect. To clarify if people buy a “normal” e-bike today, they are already speed limited. Consequently people who have bike going faster that said limit are doing something already beyond the ordinary. The likelihood that such people would suddenly change their behavior to buy typical bikes when they have even more restrictions is probably not high, but the announcement still makes it look like something is done for the greater good.
The way i see it, its an area that is in the process of becoming regulated. The article mentions
More than half of all electric cyclists ride faster than the permitted 25 kilometers
This can’t be the case if they are speed limited
They should do it for cars first and see what happens
If the state can control your bike, you don’t actually own it.
Our bike
So your system knows the exact situation and still is slowing down my bike, just at the moment I need to accelerate to avoid being overrun by that large truck heading into me.
After reading the article, it seems like the system is supposed to temporarily jam pedal assist, turning your ebike into a regular bike. And the system would need to be installed in all street legal ebikes for that to happen. Since you’re still free to accelerate by pedaling like a normal bike user, that significantly reduces the amount of situations where the pedal assist would actually save you. If you can’t avoid collision by pedaling harder, you probably had no chance in the first place.
Considering most of the inner city’s roads now have a 30 km/h speed limit for cars, collision safety is probably even less of a concern now.
I do share the concern of others in the comments that such a system would probably be broken on day one, and you have a bunch of script kiddies with flipper zeros running around bricking ebikes.
The only way for that not to happen is to use proper encryption for any wireless signals being used to control this system. Considering the Dutch governmental reputation for IT failures, this is probably not going to go well.
And the system would need to be installed in all street legal ebikes for that to happen.
Wouldn’t street legal ebikes not go too fast by default anyway? I feel like if that’s the case, this would mostly inconvenience people with legal ebikes and have barely any effect on illegal ones that can go faster.
Street legal bikes can be modified. This system would, in theory, make it harder to exceed speed limits on assisted pedalling, or at least easier to find those who do it and fine them.
at least easier to find those who do it and fine them.
Missed that part, can you please clarify how?
Precisely; for context, it was recently discussed in Dutch media how some of these e-bikes reach 60 km/h. Together with a culture of people refusing to wear bicycle helmets, there’s certainly some more nuance and middle ground.
There needs to be some kind of solution, but doing nothing is not really an option.
Since you’re still free to accelerate by pedaling like a normal bike user, that significantly reduces the amount of situations where the pedal assist would actually save you.
Bro e-bikes are like 3-6x heavier than normal bikes, manual pedaling sucks and you can’t accelerate for shit
Now do cars!
Apparently starting ISA in July 2024 https://www.brusselstimes.com/855280/self-braking-cars-all-new-cars-to-be-fitted-with-speed-limiting-technology
