People with a ‘but free speech!!’ angle, let me know what country you think it would be okay to yell at the President or Prime Minister during a speech and then refuse to leave.
In the democratic West, if you interrupt your leader you are locked up and imprisoned.
Lol, what a ridiculous take. He’d have been locked up if he did that in a movie theater, let alone at the State of the Union address.
The charge he’s getting is so light that it would probably be worse to get a municipal misdemeanor for disorderly conduct.
I’m glad he’s getting a slap on the wrist, losing a child will mess any parent up…and they were still right to throw him out.
Funny thing is if any politician were to sympathize with him over losing a child it would be Biden.
Yeah, I wouldn’t see the need to have this guy charged with anything or really punished at all.
Ha ha, yeah. This guy is getting a $50 fine.
This is exactly how Prime Minster’s Questions work in the UK.
I expect that Americans know nothing about other countries, but I thought maybe you’d know something about at least the UK.
Members of the public aren’t allowed to shout during PMQs though, just elected members.
that’s not what OP alleged
Congress members have made interjections during State of the Union without being censured or removed. But also, that’s the Questions segment. That’s what they’re SUPPOSED to do. I have seen that, thanks.
It’s pretty much just called “questions”, and the shouts are typically not questions either.
I do like how that part of the political system works there and it’s refreshing compared to the formality in the US. But keep in mind the distinction between random members of the public yelling things and elected representatives. People yell stuff at elected officials all the time here, and do things like protest when they’re walking or driving by, but it’s different than interrupting the largest speech of the year.
Meh, fuck him. His son signed up to go murder people in their own country for a paycheck and it bit him in the ass. Waaah.
Yeah, it’s a little weird seeing an ML-ish space “defending the troops against those bastard Washington elites”.
Blaming the people who need to eat instead of the people creating an economy out of death and misery is counter-productive. US foreign policy and economics have centered around war for at least 80 years, Biden has played a crucial role in facilitating it for a few decades.
And the fact a person has been arrested for shouting at the president in the same location where people literally stormed it and engaged in literal violence and walked away free that day? Amazing.
Biden might be infinitely better than the alternative for most citizens of the US (and likely the entire world) - but the non-US part of the world has been bearing the costs of the US military economy that has provided the privileges US citizens currently enjoy.
But fuck the guy who lost his kid, right? He’s the real problem. /s
First, I’m not blaming anyone. Just pointing out that what happened was a logical and known potential outcome and consequence of signing up to go overseas to murder others in their country so his bosses could further perpetuate US hegemony across the globe.
Secondly, there are many other ways to “eat.” You make it sound as if the choice is binary between starving and joining the military: it’s not.
Thirdly, the US has been at war for all of its existence in one form or another. The only thing that makes the last 80 years different is the efficiency of murder and the new murder weapons they have access to.
Lastly, yeah, fuck this guy. He’s putting blame on someone who is neither the proximal nor actual cause of his sons death, and he’s choosing to do it in a forum/in a way that does nothing but create a media spectacle.
First, I’m not blaming anyone. Just pointing out that what happened was a logical and known potential outcome and consequence of [his actions]
So, blaming.
what happened was a logical and known potential outcome and consequence of signing up
It certainly is, but when the burden of responsibility is only placed on the person at the end of the line, it lets the fuckers at the top with the unequal power skirt their responsibility. Perhaps “blame” is too far, but it doss seem like you’ve perhaps disproportionately assigned blame to thus one shouting guy and his kid.
You make it sound as if the choice is binary between starving and joining the military: it’s not.
Not at all, but I do acknowledge that for many, and in increasing amounts, the decision has indeed become very close to that binary. US hegemony relies on people to do the enforcement. That’s obviously dangerous, and thankfully, despite pervasive cultural conditioning, most people aren’t interested in killing others overseas while living in an overcrowded dorm eating slop. So the conditions have been put in place by the ruling class to force people into doing it.
If you’re unlucky enough to be born in Podunk Nowhere, where disaster capitalism has resulted in the only employers being Walmart, mcdonalds or the shady abattoir that “hires” minors, you don’t start with many options. Add in an “education” from a system that has been rotted from within by zealots, complete with in-school army recruiter. Add in a culture that loves guns. Add in a family member in debt from medical accident (probably at the abattoir), or an unplanned pregnancy because of no access to abortion. Maybe they’re also living at home with a parent who is addicted to meth out of desperation to avoid their poverty and misery… and the military starts looking like a very tempting option.
You have the chance of dying and disability in the military, and the likelihood that you’re forced to murder, but also the glimmer of hope of an education, family healthcare and a way out of Podunk’s cycle of poverty. That’s a powerful motivator for someone who doesn’t see any other realistic options. It’s a deliberate funnel into committing murder through economic coercion and military worship culture, and the fault lies with the trap makers, not the trapped.
The only thing that makes the last 80 years different is the efficiency of murder and the new murder weapons they have access to.
And the extent of its reach. A century ago, the US was pretty limited to war on North American soil, and land it claims. When the war is that close, the realities of suffering are hard to conceal from the people whom you need to inflict it. Wars in other continents though can be sanitized by the media, and the people who are caught in the military funnel trap find out after they’ve signed the contract.
Thankfully the prevalence of video tech has allowed us to mitigate some of that media sanitization, but again, putting the burden of responsibility on the 18 year old who has never been taught critical thinking skills allows the 65+ year old networked decision makers at the top to slide off the hook.
Tl;dr I think it’s OK to acknowledge everything on all fronts is fucked for everyone except the ruling class. I also think it’s OK to shout at the ruling class, even in their house, when you were invited to be there.
All fair points. Thank you for taking the time to elaborate. That was well presented.
Thanks for understanding and being willing to consider a stranger’s point of view, I appreciate it.
Step 1) Act immorally
Step 2a) Nothing goes wrong - No problem! Step 2b) Something goes wrong - Continue to step 3
Step 3) Complain
And who started the withdrawal and left only 2500 troops in Afghanistan by the time Biden took office?
And who put us into afganistan?
Saudi Arabia?
Close. Check their rectums. I’m sure you’ll find a bush or two.
You can not like or dislike that we left Afghanistan, but you cant say it wasnt a shitshow of a withdrawal. If you cant admit it was botched then you are not being rational.
Yeah, don’t know why you’re catching down votes. The withdrawal was a rushed shit show. It was always going to be a mess, but literally announcing a complete withdrawal with a wholly inflexible timeline was just handing anyone who cooperated with the gov a death sentence.
I volunteer as a healthcare provider with an NGO that helped settle a lot of translators who worked with the military from Afghanistan to the US. Hearing about their last days escaping Kabul is always harrowing and they all left family behind.
It’s directly above in the reply chain:
who started the withdrawal and left only 2500 troops in Afghanistan by the time Biden took office?
But kind of like Republicans blamed Obama for not ending the wars they started, the blame is now all on Biden.
I don’t think anyone here is trying to blame Biden for the totality of withdrawal of Afghanistan. But it appears that most people in this thread are trying to deflect any sense of responsibility from the president.
He could have slowed down the time table, he could have pulled more troops to give families and allies more time. We shouldn’t have a knee jer reaction to valid criticisms of politicians. That just gives cover for all the invalid criticism to sound more credible.
To armchair quarter back the problem, they needed to just be at bagram AFB and tell the Taliban (or whatever group they were) to stop coming toward the capital til it was over, and take away the weapos if they were never going to fight for their country. I think that would have done it.
Yeah, don’t know why you’re catching down votes.
Because the person he’s replying to didn’t say anything to warrant that response. They never commented on how it went just pointing out the person this guy was protesting isn’t the one who made the withdrawal plan and took over too late to do much about it.
That shit show was caused by mango mussolini’s release of 5K Taliban troops and reducing the US troop presence to 2500 making it impossible to manage to evacuate more orderly by the agreed exist before date. None of it was the result of Biden’s decision. Unless of course you wish to claim Biden should have refused to honor the US given word.
Lets say thats true, why didnt they bring back the troops and equipment necessary to do the job correctly then?
The main problem was where they did the withdrawal from, and how they did it.
instead of saying ignorant bullshit, read the actual facts.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/US-Withdrawal-from-Afghanistan.pdf
"The choice I had to make, as your president, was either to follow through on that agreement or be prepared to go back to fighting the Taliban in the middle of the spring fighting season,” Biden said.
Again, your ignorance is no one’s fault but your own.
Did you just link propaganda from the government that failed?
Literally there were lots of options and withdraw at the same time. You guys need to stop just agreeing with your teams bullsh1t.
Ah, so you are another reality denying idiot. cool, cool. It was all reported at the time, and of course if you had a shred of evidence you could make a mint producing it, but instead you spew right wing talking points that have been disproven repeatedly.
Uh… what I am saying is not controversial, its obvious, but I guess you are the “SHOW ME EVIDENCE THE SKY IS CLOUDY TODAY!!!” guy. Peace.
You can initiate a troop withdrawal from a 20-year conflict with less than 4 months of your presidency, but you can’t select a supreme court justice unless you have an R next your party affiliation? Biden inherited a shitshow with no other option to get out as fast as possible. He’s barking at the wrong guy, of course.
There was nothing wrong with withdrawing, I 100% support that, he just did it really really badly. Do I need to remind you how botched it was?
More botched than the lies that got us there in the first place? No? Cool cool
Uh, not sure how you compare those two things, but yes we should not have not been involved in most of the wars we have been involved in for the last 80 years, including Iraq, Afghanistn, Ukraine, and Isreal.
You can blame both of them for the disastrous response. Breaking the terms of the withdrawal, imposing sanctions and then drone striking civilians in Afghanistan before withdrawal were massive contributors. Culpability isn’t black and white.
Trump refused to share any existing plans until Biden took office. Guy couldnt hit the ground running, he had to play catchup because for the first time ever a Prez refused to hand the torch. With Covid killing more than troops in a war, that took priority, then all the other domestic shit he got left with, insurrectionists, and a few months for the withdrawal (which should have had a plan in place already)
So your theory is that the government is not big enough to deal with other problems and make and execute a basic plan? I was never a general and I could tell you what to do very basically because its very obvious.
Why aren’t terms for Presidents one year? I takes time. Time he was not afforded. His predecessor barred him from key details and plans. Its like dumping an outside party into a CEO position and expecting a company to right itself in one quarter, without providing them any details other than “here’s our files”. It’s not possible (except Musk but see how that played out). Government is big, with lots of people who oversaw it. And yeah, Trump could have had plans in place but he was too focused on “stolen votes” to care.
Except he had plenty of time and it was not complicated to do something different. Do you understand all they had to do was have the withdrawal point from Bagram AFB, and tell the taliban to stop marching toward the capital and that would have solved all the problems? I feel like you dont even know what happened are just repeating a bullsh1t talking point.
This might be the sweatiest attempt to blame Biden’s failings on Trump that I’ve seen yet, and I’ve seen a lot
“He is the father of Marine Lance Corporal Kareem Nikoui, who was KIA due to Joe Biden’s disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan,” Mast said online. “Joe Biden may try to turn the page on Afghanistan after his incompetence cost American lives, but NOT ON MY WATCH.”
Last August, on the two-year anniversary of the explosion, Biden released a statement to mourn the lives of the service members and civilians who were killed in the “horrific terrorist attack.”
We will forever honor the memory of the 13 service members who were stolen far too soon from their families, loved ones, and brothers- and sisters-in-arms, while performing a noble mission on behalf of our nation. We can never repay the incredible sacrifice of any of the 2,461 U.S. service members who lost their lives over two decades of war in Afghanistan or the 20,744 who were wounded. But we will never fail to honor our sacred obligation to our service members and veterans, as well as their families, caregivers, and survivors.
Today, Jill and I remember and mourn these 13 brave American service members and the more than 100 innocent Afghan civilians who were killed in the horrific terrorist attack at Abbey Gate. Many more were injured and will carry the impacts of their wounds and the horrors of that day for the rest of their lives.
We pray for the families of our fallen warriors. We grieve with them, we honor them, and we will always continue to support them.
The ignorance and stupidity in this country will most certainly be our demise.
These are the same people who want to know why Obama wasn’t in the Oval Office on 9/11.
Freedom of speech and the right to protest are when you get arrested for shouting at the person responsible for the death of your son.
Did you even read the article you posted?
“Our officers warned him to stop and when he did not, the man was removed from the House Galleries,” USCP said in a statement. He was arrested for crowding, obstructing or incommoding, said USCP, which added that “disrupting the Congress and demonstrating in the Congressional Buildings is illegal.”
Protesting your primary legislative body? Illegal.
Correct. During an official session.
So freedom of speech is when speech is illegal. Got it.
It’s not what he said that got him in trouble, it was disrupting the event and refusing to leave. Freedom of speech doesn’t give you the right to stand on top of a fast food counter and yell about politics either. If they ask you to leave, you must leave. Stop being so obtuse.
Classic liberal - public politics on government property is exactly like McBurgers.
It was a public event, on public land, in public property, and it was about politics. It couldn’t have been more germane to the context. He also didn’t “stand on the counter”. The fact that he was asked to leave for doing anything other than cheering and clapping is the problem
This is too dishonest to even respond to further.
I am fine with him being arrested for not leaving, but I think the bad part is if he got anything but a slap on the wrist.
I do agree with that fully. $500 fine and up to 90 days in prison is the range according to the article. I think a week or two is plenty, so I’m thinking less than 20% of the max. Since the guy lost his son, I’d be fine with 3 days or so honestly.
Some people have a really hard time understand what the First Amendment guarantees. It’s that the government can’t arrest you for criticizing them or running an opposition party, mainly. Which DOES happen in many other countries.
Of course the US has had fucked up instances of that like the FBI investigating MLK, plus so much more. But this incident isn’t it.
D.C. Code § 22–1307 - Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding. Disrupting the Congress and demonstrating in the Congressional Buildings is illegal.”
https://floridianpress.com/2024/03/gold-star-father-arrested-at-bidens-sotu-address/
Protesting your primary legislative body? Illegal.
You can protest all you want outside. Someone would get kicked out of a school board meeting for this. Free speech means the government can’t arrest you for the content of what you say or restrict political assembly.
Congress shall make no law […] abridging the freedom […] to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Yet another moronic comment from you. Having the right to petition the government does not mean you can disrupt official proceedings and refuse to leave when ordered to by the police. It’s the content of speech that’s protected, you can’t go to jail for saying Biden sucks…you can go to jail for disrupting official proceedings and trespassing. You’re pretending the right to free speech gives one the right to conduct that speech however they want, and that is again…an incredibly stupid thing to suggest.
How bizarre is it that people simply choose to misinterpret plain English?
One law says you can peacefully petition, the other says you can not be disruptive and obstructive.
This should not be something anyone finds arguable.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
It is legal to peaceably petition the government for a redress of grievances.
It is illegal to disrupt the Congress and demonstrate in the Congressional buildings.Good job, but our rights don’t include standing up and screaming during official proceedings. It’s more that the government can’t arrest him for writing an op-ed or Twitter feed criticizing Biden.
I don’t think you understand what the first amendment actually claims
It does not guarantee the right to disrupt official proceedings, sorry. Like I said, go try that in a court. Walk in and start protesting about a political issue and claim you’re allowed to under the 1st amendment. This isn’t exactly the first time someone has tried that btw.
I dont think you do lol
Biden is responsible for a lot of things but this is not one of them.
Nah, his son was responsible for his own death. I won’t say he deserved to die but I will say I dgaf about dead marines.
Try going in a courthouse and yelling at someone during a hearing.
Hell, try going in a Post Office and yelling at someone.
The Post Office is not a political body
I used that example because they are also federal property as opposed to private property. It seems you missed the point, though. Free speech doesn’t mean you can create a public disturbance.
Bingo, OP is just a troll.
The entire story and event are Republican media stunts. Yes, the guy lost his son and is upset. But blaming Biden for it (like OP did - “his fault”) is about like what they did with Clinton and Benghazi. Strangely it comes up often on Lemmy, “I’m so leftist that I repeat and amplify exactly what Republicans say!”
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China is better than USA but to say things like this don’t happen everywhere makes you look like an idiot.
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Poke a liar with a liar?
oh no! Not shouting?! Lock up that undemocratic lunatic. We don’t allow public criticism of our government officials.
