Facts tho.
It’s always the dudes who are only friends with other dudes that have the most issues.
More of a cultural thing than anything, but it’s always good for dudes to have women as friends as well, women are just better at talking about some things. They don’t have the same social hangups as a lot of men.
Shits better than it was, but it’s still weird when people only have friends of their own gender.
I get where you’re coming from but I’ve witness toxicity regarding masculinity from both men and women. Honestly, it’s definitely possible to have healthy relationships with other dudes. All of my best friends are guys and we aren’t afraid to talk about anything, like our feelings. So it’s really the company you keep that really matters, regardless of gender imo
Unfortunately, “my friends and family are all assholes, must be feminists fault” is extremely common and rarely shaken off.
There’s plenty of reasons people night not listen to your problems. Sometimes people just don’t have the space. Sometimes they’re just assholes.
The reasons I’ve seen the most frequently stem from the person trying to talk. They’re oversharing. They never reciprocate. They never take steps to actually address their problems. They’re using their problems to manipulate someone who isn’t falling for it.
But in 40 years of adulthood, I’ve never seen “I’m not going to listen to them solely because they’re a man”.
This. Part of learning to share emotions is learning to accept shared emotions and learning to not share emotions for all the other reasons. Most of my interactions in all women groups don’t really deal much with our feelings aside from bits at the beginning and end or with a “can I vent” warning/request at the beginning (and that’s a sometimes thing). And we take turns talking about what’s going on in our lives or deciding what the conversation is about, actively making space for others to chime in.
If you need to talk a lot about your feelings, especially the deep stuff, talk to a therapist. That’s not brushing you off, it’s what therapy is for.
But also learn to feel your feelings by yourself. Put on a sad movie and cry without shame. Go for a run or a walk or a bike and feel your heart out. That’s part of what women are expected to do as well. I think a lot of men have this idea that we all talk deep about our feelings or wear our hearts on our sleeves rather than learn to independently process our feelings, and provide mutual support where needed which is the healthy thing to do.
Same thing with other types of bigotry. The more people you know and/or have to interact with from different ethnicities or backgrounds, the harder it is to blindly hate them. You see this a lot in more diverse places like cities where they tend more progressive and tolerant. And you see the inverse in more remote or rural places that are often more homogenous.
Many women and men do not like their SO having friends of the opposite gender, especially if they are alone together. So that means having a female friend that you can privately confide in is not easy to have or maintain if either party is in a relationship.
The “safest” way to have an opposite gendered friend that you can talk to is one that you only talk to at work during work hours, which isn’t an option for male dominated fields(e.g. construction) and men in those environments are probably the most in need of a female friend to talk to.
The irony is that the people who don’t want their SO having an opposite gendered friend probably need an opposite gendered friend to talk to.
I really don’t understand heterosexual people that are like this. I’m a gay dude. I’m attracted to dudes, I have lots of gay dudes that are platonic friends. It’s possible to be friends with people without boning them lol.
If there’s that much lack of trust, only having same gendered friends isn’t helping anything.
It’s just prolonging a bad relationship
Product of the times. It used to be that infidelity was uncommon, but it happens with around 35% of unmarrived couples and around 20% of married couples today, with twice as many being the mens’ fault, probably due to their own faults not being the men that women deserve.
Around 65% of romantic couples begin as platonic couples.
The best relationships are based on a foundation as best friends. If you can’t be best friends, then you can’t have a strong enough relationship to make marriage work. There are a lot of people who get married based on expectations and poor reasoning, but the relationships that last are between people who are best friends, can communicate effectively, and naturally meet each other’s needs last the longest. That is a narrow band of people per individual which can persist without outside pressure(culture, religion, kids, etc.).
We are so lonely and desperate to have someone to love and be loved by that we end up in relationships that are unsustainable. Meeting someone who actually completes you, or feels more compatible, ruins a workable relationship because it is not harder than the easiest day spent with another person who can only temporarily satisfy the needs left unfulfilled by a relationship with a viable partner.
The grass is always greener, but your grass can be just as green if you put in the work, and that takes effort that may not seem as cheap as hopping the fence. Put in the work and the hassle of switching pasture will be less than the upkeep, that is hard to understand.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think your spouse shouldn’t have an opposite gendered friend with whom they spend a lot of alone time. It’s not just about trusting your spouse, it’s also about trusting the friend. Couple friends and friends groups are great, not sure why my husband would need to spend a lot of time alone with another lady. There are plenty of women I trust him to be alone with, but they’re all also my friend, and usually their partner is a friend as well.
Last time my husband had a female friend who was not mutual she ended up sending pictures of herself drinking in the shower to him. She was also in a relationship at the time, so he thought she was just a platonic friend. I trust him, I don’t blindly trust people I don’t know.
How exactly do you think bisexual or pansexual people function? Do you think they just don’t have friends? If not, why is it different for heterosexual people? I genuinely don’t understand. I’m not trying to do a ‘gotcha’ or a win a silly internet argument or anything like that. I just genuinely have never understood it and I want to so I keep trying. My best guess so far is it’s just a mix of insecurities and weird gender norms and heteronormativity.
I feel like trying to frame men’s mental health issues as a problem caused exclusively by “the patriarchy and capitalism” seems like it’s trying to wash the rest of society of their own personal responsibility to contribute to making the world a better place for everyone. Patriarchy and Capitalism are just tools of the greater power structure of society, which we all have a hand in forming and perpetuating.
And let’s not pretend that the feminist movement’s tendency to pump out and empower misandrists and misandrist thinking isn’t going to have a negative impact men’s mental health, especially if we continue to hold feminism as a scared cow beyond reproach or criticism. And let’s not pretend the fact that we have the explicitly female coded “feminism” that opposes the explicitly coded “patriarchy” isn’t going to give people who don’t have a lot of time to philosophise an inherently combative view of the feminism.
It’s hard to buy into the whole “actually femismim is for anyone who wants equality” shtick when you’re working exhaustive jobs most your life and then you get exposed to the kind of feminist who says men might as well go extinct because they have sperm banks now.
Pretty much every problem we have in modern society stems from patriarchy and capitalism. It is the wrong tool for the job. Hang on… let me hammer in this screw real quick. It might damage the porch I’m building, but it’ll work I guess.
I don’t think this engages with the topic of men suffering under patriarchy.
Many men in society are deeply unhappy, in large part (i would argue) because they fail to live up to masculine stereotypes. Telling men who have shitty jobs, no friends, and no dating life that their problems are their own fault solves absolutely nothing and at worst further isolates and radicalizes them. Men suffer under the patriarchy too, and those who suffer most do not have the power to dismantle it.
I understand that telling people to be kind and compassionate towards people who perpetuate their oppression can come across as insulting but I genuinely think it is necessary. We cannot solve our problems simply by pointing fingers.
Pointing fingers is a necessary step in identifying the problem, and the problem is the system itself and the people who run it. You can’t have infinite growth in a finite system. It’s not logical, let alone possible. And since we are living in a patriarchy, yeah, I’m pointing fingers. It’s not men individually that are the problem. They are subject to the same stereotypical gender roles as women. It’s the archaic idea that men have to be the bread winners and protectors while the women stay home and pop out kids. It’s great for the economy after all.
The American Dream died when Reagan was elected, but for some reason, it’s still dangled like a carrot. The patriarchal society started when organized religion became a thing. The big 3 religions are patriarchal by nature. It’s written in doctrine. They have a lot of influence in politics. Christianity specifically. God said, “take of the earth. Go forth and multiply.” See? Capitalism is written into the very foundational teachings Christianity, a patriarchal religion, with more than their fair share of political influence. It’s too much stress for the human psyche to handle, and now there is a nation of people struggling to live up to standards that are complete nonsensical fairy tales. Not a good thing for mental health.
Patriarchal Capitalism had its run. Now the world is burning and flooding at the same time. It’s a failed system.
I generally agree with what you’re saying. Identifying who is perpetuating these issues is important, but I would argue understanding why they perpetuate them is more important. Patriarchy IS a problem, late stage capitalism IS a problem. But simply identifying those problems solves nothing. More important and interesting questions to me are: Why does the patriarchy exist and how can we dismantle it? And is there an alternative to capitalism and how to we implement it?
As much as I hate capitalism I have yet to hear a single viable alternative, I only hear how bad it is. Personally I think capitalism has incredible benefits for society and with regulation and an all encompassing social safety net is a ‘fine’ system.
Except that since our world is not infinite, capitalism will be the end of it. Corporate control and ownership of the country is what needs to end. Trickle down economics are a lie that just sucks the wealth out of our economy and puts it in the pockets of the wealthy elite. Because of this, our children will suffer the consequences for the rest of their lives, and their kids, and their kids, until there are no more natural resources, no more middle class, and no more breathable oxygen.
The only way to stop it is by taxing corporations at least 70% and shifting the control of these corporations to the state, completely outlaw all religious influence in politics, and redistribute the wealth back into the economy with monthly stimulus checks to all adult citizens. The taxes on corporations would be more than enough to pay for universal Healthcare, food for the poor, housing for the homeless, and free education.
So, either we need a modernized version of communism with protections in place for the populous, or we continue with capitalism and increase funding to social programs. That will never happen under our current system, so we are doomed.
Eh, I think posts like this missing the point - feminism has a lot of shades. Some of which are actively harmful to mens mental health, some of which are very supportive.
If it’s about everyone having the same rights regardless of gender - I think we’re all in favour. If it’s about elevating one gender over another to address historical injustice, then I think that’s where points of contention lie.
Let’s ask the real question - does it have to be a zero sum game? Can we have the former without the latter? Surely we can.
Capitalism and secularism are the two main contributors.
Abrahamic market socialism would turn things around.
The first act of violence that patriarchy demands >of males is not violence toward women. Instead >patriarchy demands of all males that they >engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that >they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If >an individual is not successful in emotionally >crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal >men to enact rituals of power that will assault >his self-esteem
-bell hooks
ball hocks
As someone socialized transfeminine that quote always hit hard. Especially now as I’m older and making closer friends with adult men who are trying to heal from that psychic mutilation I’m seeing all the ways that it runs deep.
And the thing is it’s not a voluntary trade of power for vulnerability. It is backed by violence against those who cannot or will not engage in it. From social isolation to fists this violence keeps those who are uncomfortable in some form of line.
And then we see that men trying to heal from this are often unable or uncomfortable to go to each other for healing and find themselves overburdening their wives and girlfriends for something few of them have the frame of reference to understand. And some of these women have also internalized these ideas of men and push that continued expectation onto them.
Idk that’s at least what I’ve observed of the phenomenon. But I can say that a lot of the damage can be healed and you model a more whole adulthood for your sons.
This hits me hard. I am a cis male and currently trying to get rid of something like toxic masculinity, but as you say it is deeply rooted.
I acually never strived for the stereotypical man image, I wanted to have an emotional side. Now i know i always just considered “having am emotional side” just as another kind of requirement to be a good man. So i tried listening to others and beeing open myself, talking about emotional things. But only those, that i thougt were accepted. I never talked about my real worries. They always seemed to ridiculous to me. A good emotially healthy man shouldn’t have them or solve them himself. Now it feels pretty dumb in retrospect, but I am no longer letting this feeling stop me from talking about something. In some way I also have the feeling i betrayed other people with a fake personality.
I know this is not the mistake of feminism. I cannot really say what went wrong to land in this position. I do not even know why i tell this now. In some way, I just want to tell my story and hope someone can relate with it. Secondly i want to say, that the following is not obvious for everyone, at least it was not for me: Beeing emotional is not just some requirement for you, it’s also about having an opportunity to get support for your worries.
