The first act of violence that patriarchy demands >of males is not violence toward women. Instead >patriarchy demands of all males that they >engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that >they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If >an individual is not successful in emotionally >crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal >men to enact rituals of power that will assault >his self-esteem
-bell hooks
ball hocks
As someone socialized transfeminine that quote always hit hard. Especially now as I’m older and making closer friends with adult men who are trying to heal from that psychic mutilation I’m seeing all the ways that it runs deep.
And the thing is it’s not a voluntary trade of power for vulnerability. It is backed by violence against those who cannot or will not engage in it. From social isolation to fists this violence keeps those who are uncomfortable in some form of line.
And then we see that men trying to heal from this are often unable or uncomfortable to go to each other for healing and find themselves overburdening their wives and girlfriends for something few of them have the frame of reference to understand. And some of these women have also internalized these ideas of men and push that continued expectation onto them.
Idk that’s at least what I’ve observed of the phenomenon. But I can say that a lot of the damage can be healed and you model a more whole adulthood for your sons.
This hits me hard. I am a cis male and currently trying to get rid of something like toxic masculinity, but as you say it is deeply rooted.
I acually never strived for the stereotypical man image, I wanted to have an emotional side. Now i know i always just considered “having am emotional side” just as another kind of requirement to be a good man. So i tried listening to others and beeing open myself, talking about emotional things. But only those, that i thougt were accepted. I never talked about my real worries. They always seemed to ridiculous to me. A good emotially healthy man shouldn’t have them or solve them himself. Now it feels pretty dumb in retrospect, but I am no longer letting this feeling stop me from talking about something. In some way I also have the feeling i betrayed other people with a fake personality.
I know this is not the mistake of feminism. I cannot really say what went wrong to land in this position. I do not even know why i tell this now. In some way, I just want to tell my story and hope someone can relate with it. Secondly i want to say, that the following is not obvious for everyone, at least it was not for me: Beeing emotional is not just some requirement for you, it’s also about having an opportunity to get support for your worries.
Eh, I think posts like this missing the point - feminism has a lot of shades. Some of which are actively harmful to mens mental health, some of which are very supportive.
If it’s about everyone having the same rights regardless of gender - I think we’re all in favour. If it’s about elevating one gender over another to address historical injustice, then I think that’s where points of contention lie.
Let’s ask the real question - does it have to be a zero sum game? Can we have the former without the latter? Surely we can.
Capitalism and secularism are the two main contributors.
Abrahamic market socialism would turn things around.
Facts tho.
It’s always the dudes who are only friends with other dudes that have the most issues.
More of a cultural thing than anything, but it’s always good for dudes to have women as friends as well, women are just better at talking about some things. They don’t have the same social hangups as a lot of men.
Shits better than it was, but it’s still weird when people only have friends of their own gender.
I get where you’re coming from but I’ve witness toxicity regarding masculinity from both men and women. Honestly, it’s definitely possible to have healthy relationships with other dudes. All of my best friends are guys and we aren’t afraid to talk about anything, like our feelings. So it’s really the company you keep that really matters, regardless of gender imo
Unfortunately, “my friends and family are all assholes, must be feminists fault” is extremely common and rarely shaken off.
There’s plenty of reasons people night not listen to your problems. Sometimes people just don’t have the space. Sometimes they’re just assholes.
The reasons I’ve seen the most frequently stem from the person trying to talk. They’re oversharing. They never reciprocate. They never take steps to actually address their problems. They’re using their problems to manipulate someone who isn’t falling for it.
But in 40 years of adulthood, I’ve never seen “I’m not going to listen to them solely because they’re a man”.
This. Part of learning to share emotions is learning to accept shared emotions and learning to not share emotions for all the other reasons. Most of my interactions in all women groups don’t really deal much with our feelings aside from bits at the beginning and end or with a “can I vent” warning/request at the beginning (and that’s a sometimes thing). And we take turns talking about what’s going on in our lives or deciding what the conversation is about, actively making space for others to chime in.
If you need to talk a lot about your feelings, especially the deep stuff, talk to a therapist. That’s not brushing you off, it’s what therapy is for.
But also learn to feel your feelings by yourself. Put on a sad movie and cry without shame. Go for a run or a walk or a bike and feel your heart out. That’s part of what women are expected to do as well. I think a lot of men have this idea that we all talk deep about our feelings or wear our hearts on our sleeves rather than learn to independently process our feelings, and provide mutual support where needed which is the healthy thing to do.
Many women and men do not like their SO having friends of the opposite gender, especially if they are alone together. So that means having a female friend that you can privately confide in is not easy to have or maintain if either party is in a relationship.
The “safest” way to have an opposite gendered friend that you can talk to is one that you only talk to at work during work hours, which isn’t an option for male dominated fields(e.g. construction) and men in those environments are probably the most in need of a female friend to talk to.
The irony is that the people who don’t want their SO having an opposite gendered friend probably need an opposite gendered friend to talk to.
If there’s that much lack of trust, only having same gendered friends isn’t helping anything.
It’s just prolonging a bad relationship
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think your spouse shouldn’t have an opposite gendered friend with whom they spend a lot of alone time. It’s not just about trusting your spouse, it’s also about trusting the friend. Couple friends and friends groups are great, not sure why my husband would need to spend a lot of time alone with another lady. There are plenty of women I trust him to be alone with, but they’re all also my friend, and usually their partner is a friend as well.
Last time my husband had a female friend who was not mutual she ended up sending pictures of herself drinking in the shower to him. She was also in a relationship at the time, so he thought she was just a platonic friend. I trust him, I don’t blindly trust people I don’t know.
How exactly do you think bisexual or pansexual people function? Do you think they just don’t have friends? If not, why is it different for heterosexual people? I genuinely don’t understand. I’m not trying to do a ‘gotcha’ or a win a silly internet argument or anything like that. I just genuinely have never understood it and I want to so I keep trying. My best guess so far is it’s just a mix of insecurities and weird gender norms and heteronormativity.
Product of the times. It used to be that infidelity was uncommon, but it happens with around 35% of unmarrived couples and around 20% of married couples today, with twice as many being the mens’ fault, probably due to their own faults not being the men that women deserve.
Around 65% of romantic couples begin as platonic couples.
The best relationships are based on a foundation as best friends. If you can’t be best friends, then you can’t have a strong enough relationship to make marriage work. There are a lot of people who get married based on expectations and poor reasoning, but the relationships that last are between people who are best friends, can communicate effectively, and naturally meet each other’s needs last the longest. That is a narrow band of people per individual which can persist without outside pressure(culture, religion, kids, etc.).
We are so lonely and desperate to have someone to love and be loved by that we end up in relationships that are unsustainable. Meeting someone who actually completes you, or feels more compatible, ruins a workable relationship because it is not harder than the easiest day spent with another person who can only temporarily satisfy the needs left unfulfilled by a relationship with a viable partner.
The grass is always greener, but your grass can be just as green if you put in the work, and that takes effort that may not seem as cheap as hopping the fence. Put in the work and the hassle of switching pasture will be less than the upkeep, that is hard to understand.
I really don’t understand heterosexual people that are like this. I’m a gay dude. I’m attracted to dudes, I have lots of gay dudes that are platonic friends. It’s possible to be friends with people without boning them lol.