God the book of Genesis is so fucking dumb, I can’t believe people base their entire worldview around it. Like there’s people who adhere to all forms of ridiculous Christian morality, some less so, some more so, but ON TOP OF THAT also believing that fuckin Abraham wasn’t in active psychosis and was a reliable source, or that Jesus is the actual son of God, what the fuck…
The dumbest part of religion is the answers. The absolute coolest part is “YOU KNOW NOTHING OF THE ABSOLUTE, BOW DOWN IN IGNORANCE MORTAL” like hell yea i can get down with being a dumbass more than listening to someone who doesn’t know he’s a dumbass
or that Jesus is the actual son of God
I mean… He kind of claimed to be the Son of God, did miracles, and then proceeded to die and rise again from the death
Did he, though?
People claimed someone did those things, the zombie part was added somewhere around 300 years AFTER the claimed date of death.
Source?
I don’t. There are far more interesting fictional character to talk about.
Lilith left Adam after she refused to become subservient to him and then would not return to the Garden of Eden
Based.
All Hail Lilith, The sacred mother of Feminism
Tone
satire
That’s the reason my wife and I named our daughter Lilith.
She’s not taking anyone’s shit.
She became the first demon. The first example of the Bible literally demonizing women.
Sort of but not really. Lilith isn’t in the biblical version of Adam and Eve. There might be one mention of Lilith in and unrelated story in Isaiah, or it might be an old Hebrew word for screech owl.
The connection to Adam comes from folktales and fanfics written 1,000 years later. In terms of biblical tradition, she’s closer to Steve than Adam.
The Bible does a fine job of demonizing women, starting with Eve. But Christians don’t need a scriptural reason to demonize something they can’t control.
1000 years after what? Adam?
Good point, I meant 1000 years after the ecumenical councils established what books would be included in the Bible.
But you’re right, Genesis and Isaiah are old testament, much older than the Bible.
We need the Book of Rejects. All the books and stories that were considered but not included
I think they meant 1000s of years after the original texts where written.
Fucking your half-sibling is still incest.
Literally nobody else, you would.
Yes, but Cain and/or Abel could have sex with Lilith and that offspring would not be the result of inbreeding. After that everything else is unless there are more people.
Because Lilith isn’t mentioned in all versions of the Adam and Eve story, and certainly isn’t mentioned in Genesis. There’s plenty of versions of the story with lots of different characters, and plenty of interpretations of what happens, but in the Canonical Christian Bible, there are at least two events where the entire human race is only directly described as being one single family - Adam and Eve, and Noah’s flood.
The Bible, and even the Torah, are compilations from stories that existed before these particular books were written down. However, the character of Lilith as “first wife of Adam” is probably not something left out of the Torah, but a much later invention.
The confusion comes from Genesis giving two creation accounts of a woman.
Genesis 1:27 So God created mankind in his own image,in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.
then later…
Genesis 2:22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
It appears that a man and woman was created at the same time in Genesis 1:27, then later in Genesis 2:22 a woman was created from a rib
This is the origin of the McRib.
This is probably a result of the Hebrew literary practice of narrating a story once in poetic language and then again in prose. So it’s the same man and woman being created, just retold in a different style.
This is correct. Context is everything in understanding any historical source. The Hebrew texts are no different, in fact they’re a great case study in this field. They’re littered with complex poems.
My understanding is that these were two separate stories that were compiled into official state religious texts at the time of King Josiah to unify the country under one monotheistic religion.
Current scholarly consensus is that the Geneses are actually two different accounts, one likely originating in ancient Israel and the other in ancient Judah. It’s why the two stories are so startlingly different when you read them side by side.
Exactly. King Josiah is believed to have had religious stories and traditions from both regions of Judah (North and South).
You have to remember that which books got to be canon in the Bible were decide at the Council of Nicea
If you’re grasping at cousins as being the sole separator you know you have a problem. But also there’s a lot of conflicting information, such as Cain settling in the city of Nod east of Eden which suggests I guess that there were people outside of Eden already. Don’t take anything too literally, and jokes are jokes.
And God got mad at Lilith for not being obedient and banished her so perhaps there were a series of Liliths. I think Eve was taken from the rib because that was supposed to make her less independently minded then creating her from the dust like Lilith.
Actually, the rib part is a bit of a mistranslation: https://youtu.be/FN4pVp6lNJ0
I don’t think creationism is particularly bothered by genetics.
Apparently telomeres used to be so long they wrapped around your ankles and you lived to be 600.
Two things about that (overanalyzing your shower thought):
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Geneticists have what they call the “50/500 rule,” which basically means that you need at least 50 people to avoid inbreeding, and at least 500 to avoid genetic drift. So while three people are 50% better than two, it’s not going to come close to avoiding inbreeding.
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If you read up on Lilith, including your Wikipedia link, you’ll see her name only comes up once in the Bible, and it’s not as Adam’s wife. All the stuff about her comes from other things, including Babylonian and Mesopotamian writings, and lots of folklore from the middle ages. And at that, she’s sometimes Adam’s first wife, with different explanations about what happened to her that really in her not coming back to the garden, or she’s a demon. So there’s not much likelihood that she’s contributing to the gene pool.
Awesome, I was showing up for the demon angle.
- Wasn’t Eve made from Adam’s rib and thus shares his DNA?
That one version. There actually two different versions of Adam and Eve.
What are the two versions?
One was they both created at same time and second version she created from one of his ribs.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/shorts/FN4pVp6lNJ0?si=0sGsDZMd1VYygGsJ
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Yeah, good point.
would their kids be clones?
Depends on the chromosomes, if adam had two identical ones for each the kids would be clones barring mutations.
The chances are around 260k to 1. Factoring Eve’s lack of a second sex chromosome, (unless she has swyer syndrome) the equation would be 1/((22²+1)(23²))≈0.00039%
Seeing how we’re talking about religion and first man, I don’t think we’re limited by probability here.
BTW so there are 30k people with identical chromosomes??
As you mentioned it depends on chromosomal differences, I just provided the probability of it actually happening.
And, yes. Barring any mutations or trait selectivity, if we all came from the same individual, there would be about 30k identical people of the 8.1b population.
No, the products of incest.
Hemophilia and all that would be more likely, but no cool identical stuff going on
What is hemophilia?
UNBAN ME FROM PERCHANCE COMMUNITY OR LEMMY WILL BE ON ITS HANDS AND KNEES
A blood disease where your blood doesn’t clot basically.
It’s a disease where you don’t stop bleeding when you bleed. The name comes from Latin words for blood and love, like, your body just loves bleeding
Hmmm, no, because which of your genes you pass down is still a bit random.
Lol, I read this as “would their kids be bones?”
Lol only their mom is bones
That good ‘ol XX rib mmm
Idk I thought it was an Evangelion thing
Good response!
The only counterpoint i can see is that god is (honestly, at best WAS) infallible.
So god made 2 perfect humans who cannot inbreed as there are no defective genes.
At some point down the line, mutations came in and introduced possible genes that could combine/dominate to produce inbreeding.If we are accepting the premise of 2 original humans, why not 2 perfect original humans.
If God made eve from adams rib, why not have them be genetically perfect.
But Im sure there is some science i am missing where a huge genome analysis has shown that “perfect” genes have never or could not ever exist.And, tbh, this might as well be all science fiction based on a bunch of made up stories.
If I remember my hermeneutics, the canon is that essentially, God had “blessed” early descendants of Adam and Eve, allowing their children to thrive.
It wasn’t until after the flood I believe that incest becomes more of a theme in the Bible, implying that they shouldn’t have children.
But it’s been years since I gave this any serious study so I may be remembering incorrectly.
It all makes more sense when you consider these stories in their historical social context. They’re a compiled bundle of stories from various religious traditions that were kind of grafted together to form one monotheistic state religion to help unify the country. So you find stories from both north and south Judah for example, the two creation myths in Genesis. And you see the monotheistic god referred to by more than one moniker because they were originally different gods.
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Incest doesn’t inherently cause genetic disorders, it just increases your chance of being born with recessive genetic disorders. Most of those disorders are mutations, and if the Garden of Eden is so perfect there probably aren’t genetic disorders to start out with, meaning incest is fine from a genetic perspective. All the genetic disorders would be mutations later down the line. Maybe they’re punishment for the original sin or something, to fit it into the themes of the story.
Nah genetic disorders aren’t mutations, they’re incorrect copies of original traits. I’m not a geneticist so don’t quote me on this, but the reason incest causes problems has nothing to do with mutations as they rarely happen and everything to do with not having enough variation in your own genetics to cover when there’s “data loss”. Again, I’m not a scientist.
Incorrect copies are mutations.
Correct copies are also mutations, for what it’s worth.
That’s a fantastic retroactive nonsensical explanation for Adam and Eve. Bravo.
Well, since it’s all made up, I guess you can claim whatever you want.
We’re here for an interesting discussion. Mythology totally off the table for you?
May as well be discussing the hypothetical offspring of Santa and the Easter Bunny.
Eww
Zeus did it first.
Zeus smashed Santa?
Zeus smashed everything
How about we discuss John Steinbeck’s novel East of Eden. Know where the title came from and how that plays into the story?
Go back to /r/atheism child. Adults are conversing about mythology.
You’re really something else.
Unfortunately I doubt you’re going to have an academic discussion like this in a stupid thread in showerthoughts.
Although it doesn’t sound like the discussion you seem to want to have would be very interesting.
Edit: I was partly wrong. There’s lots of very interesting mythology discussion happening in this post.
Upvote for Carlin influenced username. But also, “Go on…”
At the very least it’s more like discussing a TV show or something
lol… I’m not even an atheist and I recognize the shit is all made up. Do you actually believe it happened?? or is this just “everyone I don’t like is ugly”
to be fuckin honest, if the guy in the picture said the top comment, that’s probably one of the most sexy and agreeable things he’s said since breakfast
It’s not even that I disagree with you, it’s that there can’t be a discussion about the lore of a religion without someone trying to feel smart and superior by saying it’s all made up.
Like, yes… Obviously. That’s not the point of the post. People are allowed to enjoy things.
Which might be relevant if those were real people. You might as well worry about the genetic makeup of Pokemon
Are you saying pokemon are not real ?
Not at all! . Pikachu assures me that he exists.
I love how some scholars say Lilith didn’t exist… None of them did!
Anyone feel like this is just the story of some douche who divorced his awesome wife to find a subservient slave wife and over thousands of years its become part of a religion?
“Oh that Lilith we don’t talk about her she was a demon” he tells his grandson and 200 years after the story people interpret her as a literal demon, and just gets wackier and wackier as time goes on. Kinda feel like you could explain all that Abrahamic lore that way.
I’m just saying, homie made the wrong choice.
Let her do all the work.🤣
Adam passed up a creampie loving dick riding demon. They were sterile and she didn’t have monthlies. Lilith wouldn’t have had him eat the apple, she would have had him on pineapple and water until the sky fell as fire and it rained as ashes.
Lilith fucks back, Eve wanted to do it through a sheet. Adam was a damned fool.
And they were bums living in some other guy’s garden until they got caught.
Thing is, Lilith didn’t pop up in texts apart from post-Jesus, such as talmudic texts. (although a Lilith was mentioned in Isaiah, it could have been a demon of some sort) so she’d only really be regarded by modern day Judaism, not by Christians.
Because Lilith is not actually mentioned in the Christian bible despite this wiki page’s attestation she is mentioned in Isaiah. She only appears in rabbitic literature.
Lilith is also the catalyst to a lot of vampire myths often described as the mother of all vampires.
rabbitic
*snort*
I can’t remember where I read this, but I remember reading that the inspiration for vampiric lore was rabies. Fear of water (vampires can’t go over running water), fear of the sun, spread by biting…
