Boys and men from generation Z are more likely than older baby boomers to believe that feminism has done more harm than good, according to research that shows a “real risk of fractious division among this coming generation”.
One in four UK males aged 16 to 29 believe it is harder to be a man than a woman and a fifth of those who have heard of him now look favourably on the social media influencer Andrew Tate, the polling of over 3,600 people found.
Tate, the British-American former kickboxer who has 8.7 million followers on the social media platform X, is facing charges in Romania, which he denies, of human trafficking, rape and forming a criminal gang to sexually exploit women. He has talked about hitting and choking women and has said he is “absolutely a misogynist”.
…
On feminism, 16% of gen Z males felt it had done more harm than good. Among over-60s the figure was 13%.
The figures emerged from Ipsos polling for King’s College London’s Policy Institute and the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership. The research also found that 37% of men aged 16 to 29 consider “toxic masculinity” an unhelpful phrase, roughly double the number of young women who don’t like it.
“This is a new and unusual generational pattern,” said Prof Bobby Duffy, director of the Policy Institute. “Normally, it tends to be the case that younger generations are consistently more comfortable with emerging social norms, as they grew up with these as a natural part of their lives.”
You’re asking people to judge the effect of a movement, but only one group remembers what things were like before the movement. It could just be that more gen z men honestly don’t know the answer.
Yeah I saw this over on Mastodon, and there were a lot of stats folks questioning the methodology. I’m not qualified to do that, but my sons are Zoomers as are all their male friends, and they are all good feminists. This is in NW Europe, so might be a bit biased.
We’re talking 16% vs 13%. Still a small minority. Based on what groups of people these are concentrated in, and what group you run in, it’s completely plausible you don’t know any of them well enough to understand this is how they feel.
Worse, depending on sample size, this might not even be a meaningful difference.
To be honest I don’t think parents is a good source of their children’s beliefs usually.
Fair enough point in general, sure.
Feminism is not needed in places or situations where rights and treatment are equal. I live in a country when genders have equal rights. The only thing that makes gender unequal are people treating woman better because they thing society threat them worse.
Ask a women.
*woman
Corrected, good sir.
Based on his comment I don’t think he knows any
Feminism it’s just another tactic of the world depopulation plan by the elite. That’s it more rights for women and equality it’s just for them to not be just reproductive meat. They want women to not have a lot of kids a now they didn’t have time for it they need to make more money. LMAO
Or, you know, women wanted to stop being told by men like you what they ought to do and how to arrange society. Smh
Maybe but pretty hard to coordinate the way it’s being coordinated, at a global scale seems more like the elite pushing their agenda.
You don’t think it’s possible that women might want equal rights? LMAO
I think equal rights it’s not the problem about it, the problem it’s the manly role feminism propose. Equal rights /not the same/ manly role. I believe the agenda it’s pushing a manly role instead of equal rights to prevent world over population what at the same time it’s not all bad tbh.
Well the propaganda is working. Surprise, surprise, distribute unfiltered hate speech and people will start believing in this hate speech.
Propoganda, hate speech - interesting as these labels are equally applied by both sides to describe the other.
Eh? I see propaganda accusations all the time, with widely varying degrees of veracity or baselessness, but I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen the left accused specifically of hate speech. I will admit that I don’t tend to frequent right-leaning opinion outlets, and so may be simply ignorant, but can you provide an example?
Hate speech per UN definition - any kind of communication in speech, writing or behaviour, that attacks or uses pejorative or discriminatory language with reference to a person or a group on the basis of who they are, in other words, based on their religion, ethnicity, nationality, race, colour, descent, gender or other identity factor.
Through the above - there is a lot of pejorative and discriminatory language levelled by both left and right wing posters on social media. Lemmy is rife with it to the point that I don’t feel comfortable in some groups. The social media company formerly known as Twitter is similarly awkward but from another angle. However, it takes multiple viewpoints to form ones own.
More broadly and as a very specific example, I think it might help if you do a careful examination of the way that many on the left describe what is occurring in the gaza strip, specifically attributing qualities to the entirety of Israel and Judaism.
ETA Fwiw I consider myself left of centre and I live in a country whose baseline is more left wing than the US.
It could be a difference in our countries, in the US we learn a LOT about the holocaust and Nazism, WW2, etc, so most people I know politically aware will go out of their way to assure you that they are not speaking about Judaism in general. Who are these ‘many on the left’ being antisemitic? I simply haven’t seen that, not any more than it might have occurred before this current war, which was rare. It doesn’t seem difficult for most to separate the actions of a violent organization like the IDF and right-wing Israeli officials from Jewish people in general.
i guess this is where the differences in “common” knowledge comes in…
There are multiple countries where left wing politics is associated with anti semitism. It might seem weird but it’s true. Start with the UK - there is a Wikipedia page on it. I’m not going to share a heap of further context as I’d invite you to read and review yourself and come to your own conclusions, much as I have.
I would also encourage spending as much time reading accounts of world war I, and the conditions before and after the war, as you have on wwii. It helps to understand what left and right wing have meant over long periods of time, and the clumping / allegiances that comes with these alignments, which persist into the modern world without really being visible under the glossy label.
Interesting you say? :D Those are not “labels applied to sides”. They are words with specific meaning describing actions. Your wording immediately is trying to turn this into an identitarian issue. And it cause isn’t even people, it’s systems. Like algorithms or business practices that have figured out that creating controversy increases profit. Or propagandists who realized that it’s useful to distract from actual policy and real issues, so they get funding.
I think a big part of the problem is that, among younger Americans especially, both men and women that refer to themselves as feminists conflate it with benevolent sexism, and not the same sets of social rules for both genders.
Benevolent sexism is a tough concept to swallow for men. It means respecting and practicing the old mores men practiced with women, with none of the toxic expectations. Things like expectations of men being the breadwinners, running to get the door, etc aren’t compatible with a desire for equality, especially when correctly rejecting the trade-offs those perks used to be tied to.
The first waves of feminism cleared the way, but in having done so, the newest generation of women are asking “but why don’t I get these cool perks I heard about” and men are answering “because we no longer get the social power that facilitated that cool stuff.”
Everything is trade offs.
Men were never required to “hold doors open” or “be the breadwinner”. They only did those things during a certain time in a certain place and for a particular reason: to make women like them. You don’t have to do that now and it has nothing to do with “feminism”.
Women worked for money and opened doors for thousands of years. This may be surprising to some people, but in many places women used to manage all the money because they were going to town and selling products every market day.
If you’re a male farmer, you are basically interchangeable with any other farmer. Women had to be good at math and negotiating. “Women be shopping” as they say.
What a shit take on the past.
Some years ago I was waiting for a bus, there were four of us and as the bus arrived we lined up behind the man who had got to the bus stop first. He looked behind him as the bus arrived, let out a large sigh, rolled his eyes and moved to the side, motioning for us women to board first. Not wanting to slow the bus down, i boarded silently whilst he muttered ‘move it’ at us. Was that you?
The male propensity to play the victim is quite imaginitive.
In my experience, the human propensity to play the victim is quite imaginative.
I find the internet is super good at locking people into echo chambers. For some reason, I feel especially keen on this when I was super into reddit over the last decade. I could FEEL just how a community would shift into just saying the same 10 things on repeat and any deviation would result in downvotes and messages in my inbox.
But it’s not just reddit. Modern video feed algorithms and other social media just need to feed you the same stuff you’ve engaged with previously.
So what ends up happening is young boys only see the videos of angry purple haired stereotype liberal feminist first year college student get SLAMMED/DESTROYED by Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson or a woman who is clearly saying something sarcastic with sad sigma male music in the background and all the comments are calling for her to be put in prison or death.
The internet can definitely get very echo chamber/brigade/gatekeepy when it feels like it. Sadly, lots of people have no identity of their own and attempt to latch on to one created for them. Once this happens, then they fiercely and angrily defend what the adopted, as if it were them being attacked personally.
Modern video feed algorithms and other social media just need to feed you the same stuff you’ve engaged with previously.
People should really stop saying this. Every YouTube ad I get and recommendation I get is crap now. It is like someone ordered the developers to break echo chambers by making sure people don’t get what they want. I am not a fucking kid, I know what I want to watch, and what I don’t want to watch. Tired of the anti trans bullshit I am constantly being suggested.
That’s not anti-echohamber. That’s the algorithm reinforcing the anti-trans propaganda that drives clicks and views on most platforms. Controversy is sensational, and anger provokes responses.
i think your experience is likely anecdotal and non-representative of general trends.
scholars still indicate that algorithms play a significant role in gathering echo chambers
I find the internet is super good at locking people into echo chambers.
People do this to themselves because they find comfort in the familiar, like in real life. I am not sure echo chambers are a unique to the internet.
Yes, to an extent. But the algorithms of all the major social media sites kick this into overdrive. Seriously, how many times have you clicked on a random YouTube video about some obscure topic and then for the next week it seems like every other recommended video is about that same topic? Even if you just watched a little bit of the original video and then clicked away because it wasn’t interesting. I see the same thing with the Google Feed on my Android phone - I click on one random article and then it just assumes that one topic is my new primary interest.
Prior to the internet, it was people’s churches, workplaces, the local pub, etc. Now it’s randos with an agenda.
Probably not the comment you were expecting, but, what’s “sad sigma male music”? And why is it called that?
There are a few sound clips that got used a lot when the whole dumbass sigma male thing was popular
I’m so out of touch. Need to google what 'sigma male things is.
I swear rage baiting in the social media era has to be the most lucrative grift of all time. Even being super aware of it I still fall for it from time to time.
Ah yes, confused men want to uphold the tradition of mysoginy, misandry, the very patriarchy that subverts men to be stupid soldiers and labourers, sacrificing emotional intelligence and their individuality to become stereotypical puppets of the powers that be.
MGTOW energy Indeed. Just the kind of weakness a grifter like Tate loves to exploit.
Dumbasses.
Most of Gen Z is children.
95 to 2010, so yeah - mostly.
Chalk it up to exploitation of boys to become exploitable males.
I was born in 95, I’m 28 not a child by any stretch of the imagination… although if I am considered a child can I quit this whole 40 hours of work every week to barely get by shit?
97 to 2012 actually.
Feminism has 100% turned into a push for superiority, not equality.
Modern feminists believe it’s “their turn” to be the abusers.
I think generalising across the whole group like that is what got us into this mess.
🤡
What makes you believe that women are now the abusers and superior to men?
100%. What’s your proof? Jokes. Ok buddy
I’d wager that people who think that couldn’t give you a coherent definition of what feminism actually is.
God fucking forbid women receive equal treatment or autonomy over their bodies!
Is there a coherent definition of feminism that feminists agree on?
(I think that people’s opinion about feminism is commonly their opinion about self-identified feminists. It’s fair to say “I believe feminism is harmful because the opinions I have heard self-identified feminists express have often seemed ridiculous, offensive, or counterproductive” without needing a definition of feminism that goes beyond self-identification.)
The definition I found that popped up on google pretty well sums up what I have always heard women say.
The advocacy of women’s rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes
It’s really that simple. It’s not a women over men movement. It’s a movement to receive the same respect, rights, and inclusion that men have enjoyed basically forever. They want the right to make decisions about their body. They’d like to maybe not be victims of sexual assault and rape and staggering percentages (about 1 in 6 American women will be raped in their lifetime). They’d like to have a better chance at corporate leadership (10% of fortune 500 CEOs are women). They’d like to have more of a footprint in government (roughly 28% of the US congress is female and this is a record high).
They just want equity and respect and they deserve it.
There’s an essay that I agree with about that sort of definition.
Here’s a relevant excerpt:
I feel like every single term in social justice terminology has a totally unobjectionable and obviously important meaning – and then is actually used a completely different way.
The closest analogy I can think of is those religious people who say “God is just another word for the order and beauty in the Universe” – and then later pray to God to smite their enemies. And if you criticize them for doing the latter, they say “But God just means there is order and beauty in the universe, surely you’re not objecting to that?”
The result is that people can accuse people of “privilege” or “mansplaining” no matter what they do, and then when people criticize the concept of “privilege” they retreat back to “but ‘privilege’ just means you’re interrupting women in a women-only safe space. Surely no one can object to criticizing people who do that?”
Let’s say that, for example, I affirmed my belief that people should be hired based on their ability rather than on their sex, but then I said that there are more men than women in software development mainly due to biological differences. That doesn’t go against your definition, but do you think most feminists would react well to it? They didn’t when James Damore said it, or when the president of Harvard said something similar…
(This is despite the fact that it’s commonly accepted that biological differences between the sexes are the main reason why there are more men than women who are violent criminals.)
As a man myself I’m just having a hard time sympathizing with other men who grief at a term like “mansplaining” and in that find the justifications for disregarding the crux of what feminism seeks to make right. Is the term thrown around too much? Sure, I bet it is. So are a lot of absolutely vile quips about women. I can empathize with why some women are as verbally antagonistic towards men as they are.
To your other point. Are women underrepresented in STEM fields because they lack the ability to tackle those problems or because women have been historically directed away from those sorts of professions for as long as we have history to look back on?
You can play some of this off to less women wanting X or Y job, but if you cannot acknowledge men holding 9 out of 10 CEO positions in fortune 500 companies as maybe being a symptom of major structural imbalances in favor of men, I do not know what to tell you. I’ve watched women be professionally undermined throughout the entirety of my working life.
Also I missed your edit on your previous comment:
(I think that people’s opinion about feminism is commonly their opinion about self-identified feminists. It’s fair to say “I believe feminism is harmful because the opinions I have heard self-identified feminists express have often seemed ridiculous, offensive, or counterproductive” without needing a definition of feminism that goes beyond self-identification.)
Would it be then fair to say that, men broadly speaking are harmful because a not insignificant group of men rape about 16% of the female population? I think judging any group wholesale by the actions of it’s most extreme cohort is problematic. And in this case we’re talking about words women said that made some guys feel bad.
I just don’t buy into the counter argument to feminism and I think this quote sums up how a lot of men are feeling about the topic right now.
When you’re accustomed to privilege equality feels like oppression.
To your other point. Are women underrepresented in STEM fields because they lack the ability to tackle those problems or because women have been historically directed away from those sorts of professions for as long as we have history to look back on?
To speak to that, back when software development was not a prestigious job, it was done mostly by women. The lead developer for the Apollo program’s guidance software is a woman, Margaret Hamilton.
Y’all know it’s incels, right?
From what I read of the polls, Im strongly inclined that its religion based not incels.
Well, that’s a new one. Not that surprising, though.
Although I understand the importance of feminism, I never had the impression that feminists are good at PR. Somehow, most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.
That has nothing to do with feminists as a whole, it’s just how the media works. You don’t get clicks without controversy. The vast majority of feminists I’ve known irl are chill people.
Yeah, that’s what I was gonna say. The more recent version of Feminism is “Women are awesome and can do anything, men suck and constantly keep us down. Fuck the patriarchy!” instead of “women are just as good as men at doing things”.
Somehow, most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.
Does anyone have a link to any of these? I keep hearing recently that somehow this has been a thing for ages, but last I checked “wanting gender equality” was the driving idea of feminism, and that a large portion of women and men agreed with this.
I’m in my early 40’s and I definitely haven’t seen some deluge of articles by women, who while proclaiming feminism, “stereotype and bash men.”
Well, the problem is that nobody collects history of feminism articles they have read. I’m not gonna spend time on collecting them. Even if I did, you don’t know how fair my collection strategy would be. I have no idea what Google query would reproduce the samples the average person encounters these things online. So, to do this fairly requires a dedication akin to writing a scientific article on this topic… Nobody has the time.
And if I presented such a survey, you’d do your own research to verify the results anyway. So, I hate to say this, but why not check the web yourself?
If you don’t, I think the most feasible you could try is to summarize people’s replies.
Well, the problem is that nobody collects history of feminism articles they have read.
Apparently you don’t have to, because ‘Somehow, most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.’ So go find some of these articles.
It’s not my job to verify your insulting, reductive, broad-sweeping claims. Feminists have fought for equality for both men and women, this is a fact. The missive is “… a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes.[a][2][3][4][5] Feminism holds the position that societies prioritize the male point of view and that women are treated unjustly in these societies.[6] Efforts to change this include fighting against gender stereotypes and improving educational, professional, and interpersonal opportunities and outcomes for women.”
How we go from that to ‘most articles just stereotype and bash men’? You don’t get to make a claim like ’ most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men’ and then literally provide zero examples. This is just Hasty Generalization and it’s depressing to watch another man do this in a thread about the sudden decline in men agreeing that gender equality-seeking is somehow ‘stereotyping and bashing men.’
I agree with you on what it is, though. The problem, if the problem exists as I wrote, is the PR.
PR is different from what feminism is.
I guess what I wrote is too nuanced to understand in the first sight. I advice you to temporarily assume I’m correct, so that you can calm down and see what I really mean here.
The problem, if the problem exists as I wrote, is the PR. … I guess what I wrote is too nuanced to understand in the first sight
Not really, you said:
I never had the impression that feminists are good at PR. Somehow, most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.
And, to this point, still haven’t posted a single one.
To quote a philosopher from my youth:
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
I agree with you on what it is, though.
Can you explain to me how you interpret this one, then? I’m pretty sure it’s just misunderstanding.
I don’t agree with you, because you said the ‘issue with feminisms PR’ is posts on twitter, reddit, and ‘most articles I read’. You didn’t respond with any of the articles, and people say all sorts of things on twitter and reddit. They don’t encompass the entirety of a group like people who want gender equality.
Here’s an example of how feminism helps boys and girls, and the positive impacts of it.
That’s two articles I’ve posted here, feel free to post your myriad misandrist feminist articles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
Especially the history section will be relevant to you.
When people complain about feminism they generally complain about forth wave or maybe third wave feminism. When people point out all the good feminism they usually mean first and second wave feminism.
Edit: chances are you’ll have to watch with subtitles (it’s in German), but here’s a documentary (with commentary, because the documentary fucked up hard in some parts) about feminism: https://youtube.com/watch?v=I-OFCy-NrU4
And here is an interview with one of the subjects of the documentary who felt wrongly presented (rightfully so): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tvPExRR_GRg
Go take a look at the UN’s Twitter account on National Men’s day. Or I remember articles about how 1 in 4 homeless are women and it’s a tragedy for women. Honestly if you have seen articles like these before you’re either not reading many of them or you aren’t noticing what they are saying.
Go take a look at the UN’s Twitter account on National Men’s day. Or I remember articles about how 1 in 4 homeless are women and it’s a tragedy for women. Honestly if you have seen articles like these before you’re either not reading many of them or you aren’t noticing what they are saying.
So an article, and some twitter comments. That’s not exactly “…most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.”
How dishonest can you be? You specifically asked for a link to ANY of these. You got a response that gave you some examples, and you respond:
So an article, and some twitter comments. That’s not exactly "…most articles written by feministsI
You didn’t ask for most of the articles and it isn’t reasonable to expect someone to provide you 50-100 links.
If you have a genuine disagreement with what they provided you should present that, but as it stands you’re being terribly dishonest and disingenuous.
You got a response that gave you some examples, and you respond:
What examples? The guy said look on twitter on National Men’s Day, and a reference to an article (without linking to it) for a hand sweeping ‘Most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.’
(EDIT: To be specific, here’s EXACTLY what I said:
Does anyone have a link to any of these? )
No-one here has linked to any deluge of ‘feminist’ articles that ‘love to stereotype and bash men’.
What is the actual, legitimate complaint against this:
Feminism is a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes.
What examples?
The ones you were given.
The guy said look on twitter on National Men’s Day,
No, they didn’t. They told you to look at a specific account on a specific day.
and a reference to an article (without linking to it) for a hand sweeping ‘Most articles written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.’
Yes, which you could have easily googled if you wanted to read it.
Regardless you asked for examples, and then upon receiving them stated “that’s most?”. No amount of examples was going to be sufficient, your response would have been the same regardless. Your original question was dishonest in that you weren’t interested in the answer.
Edit: As for your definition, I don’t think anyone opposed that definition. Feminism is a large banner under which a lot of groups identify. So your extremely generic definition doesn’t encapsulate all persons or groups.
No, they didn’t. They told you to look at a specific account on a specific day.
Not the OP, and still not any links. ‘Go take a look at the UN’s Twitter account on National Men’s day.’ isn’t an article written by a feminist. ‘Or I remember articles about how 1 in 4 homeless are women and it’s a tragedy for women.’ that’s both not a link, and doesn’t ‘stereotype and bash men.’
Still waiting for a link of an ‘article written by feministsI’ve read love to stereotype and bash men.’ Feel free to post one.
Feminism is something with many internal factions. But yeah, the loudest ones aren’t usually interested in genuine discourse. Some of those factions can act every bit as unhinged as ‘persecuted’ Christians about total non-issues, like Oscars nominations despite womankind as a whole having some very real issues to worry about.
People who say reasonable things most people can agree with rarely get their own platform.
Also, lots of people who say reasonable things have lies spread about them by misogynists and get made to look unreasonable
That too, that too. There are a lot of times something sounds absolutely nuts without context (and reasonable with it) and that is frequently used against certain folks as well.
That’s selection bias. Reasonable feminists usually don’t crow about being feminists, probably because they don’t want to be judged based on stereotypes about feminists.
… just curious, but are you perusing a lot of feminist literature?
I know I’m not.
But what I do see are the articles that the right wing has decided are rage inducing and fair game and that they plaster everywhere to try to influence people.
So … maybe worth some thought.
this is the correct analysis. true feminists are fine at PR, but unfortunately grifters who profit off of right wing ideas being spread have a vested interest in making feminists appear evil in order to maintain the status quo.
No. And I don’t think I’ve encountered these articles on right-wing webpages when I vistas there out of curiosity. I instead think some were rants on Reddit written by feminists (while I can’t recall how I encountered others). So maybe a selection bias on my side, or the loudest feminists get more upvotes even outside rightwing subreddits.
Not everyone claiming to be a feminist is actually one. There’s a lot of misandrists that use the feminist label to spread their bullshit. But feminism in of itself is meant to be an egalitarian movement, it’s about equality. It was never meant to bash men or make them unequal to women.
I do agree however that many feminists often look away when these type of people spew their garbage out into the public. I think especially women need to make sure to tell these people where to stuff it and that their shit isn’t welcomed.
A good chunk of the “feminist” who are guilty of it are also TERFs. To them, trans women are just creepy men, and trans men are women trying to cheat into getting male privilege. They started from a place of hating men, and that’s where they went.
Feminism as a whole has also been trying very hard to kick them out of the club. That’s difficult when there’s no central authority figure who dictates what is and is not feminism, but TERFs don’t last long at most of the meetups.
Feminism has a branding problem. The name itself makes it sound like it’s about putting women above men. People who don’t know better—the kind of people who are disproportionately young—will judge feminism based on the name.
Calling it feminism made sense when everyone “knew” women were generally inferior to men, but since gender equality has become the mainstream view, the name had lost the context that made it work. Combined with the scope creep of feminism that causes it to encompass issues like disability rights and economic inequality, I think feminism is becoming indistinguishable from leftism.
It won’t change as woman in literally in feminism name. The proper word is egalitarianism.
What’s the difference between that and ‘All Lives Matter’.
Feminism is leftism and leftism is feminism. It’s always been that way because it’s all about the same issue, equality. Women’s rights, civil rights, trans rights, they’re all fighting for the same thing. One of my favorite quotes comes from Fannie Lou Hamer, civil rights and women’s rights activist, “Nobody’s free until everybody’s free”
“Nobody’s free until everybody’s free”
This is like a main tenet of existentialisme, at least as it’s described by Sartre and De Beauvoir. To anyone reading, check out the very easy reads of Ethics of Ambiguity by De Beauvoir and Existentialism is a Humanism by Sartre.
Isn’t this the same rationale for ‘All Lives Matter’? You want to remove the history of oppression and pretend we’re equal, despite trump and tate and the incels. Feminism was and is necessary, the US is removing womens right to bodily autonomy and you’re pretending it’s all over.
Sorry, did you respond to the wrong comment?
Nope. Feminism is no more about putting women above men than BLM is about putting black lives above others. By removing women from the name you remove the history of oppression, a history that should’nt be hushed uo, and in a world with trump and tate feminism is sorely needed.
So why are you “responding” to a bunch of things I never said or even remotely suggested?
This is such an out-of-touch take. I truly hope you can engage in some learning and arrive at a more productive and truth-seeking conclusion in the future.
Branding problems generally don’t arise out of nowhere. When issues like this arise, it’s crucial to ask, ‘Can anyone benefit monetarily from reshaping this narrative?’ Are there individuals and groups being amplified who profit from redefining ‘feminism’ as repackaged misandry?
If you’re familiar with figures from the manosphere like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate, it’s abundantly clear that the answer is abso-fucking-litely, there are individuals who exploit this narrative. It’s not merely a branding problem; it’s a deliberate disinformation campaign orchestrated by genuine misogynists and opportunists, especially prevalent on platforms like YouTube, bolstered by algorithmic failures in what’s commonly referred to as the ‘alt-right pipeline.’
Remember when YouTube was inundated with content titled ‘BEN SHAPIRO DESTROYS FEMINIST LIBTARD’? That wasn’t an accident; it was the beginning of years of messaging and investment. Now, these same individuals are profiting from their unchecked efforts, ranging from merchandise sales to literal fucking exploitation and human trafficking.
Please let me know if any part of this is unclear or poorly worded, or if you have any questions at all. I am genuinely committed to deplatforming these psychos, and it begins with informing people when they may unwittingly defend their actions.
The only conclusion I can take from your screed is that you completely misunderstood everything I said. I’m not defending assholes like Peterson and Tate in any way.
i’m sorry you feel that way. any downplaying of current attitudes towards feminism to just a matter of marketing is playing into the narratives of Peterson and Tate.
sorry man.
Rereading what I wrote and I get why you thought I misunderstood. I edited my original response as well. Sorry about that.
“the scope creep of feminism that causes it to encompass issues like disability rights and economic inequality, I think feminism is becoming indistinguishable from leftism.”
Why do you say that like it’s a bad thing?
Because not everyone is a leftist.
If movement A wants to achieve B and C, then people who don’t want C won’t support movement A (probably), even if they want B. If A just wants B, then everyone that wants B will support A, which makes B way more likely to happen at the cost of C being slightly less likely.
I think it’s important to remember that feminism is as much a political movement as a philosophical one. How things should be versus how to fix things are different.
So “humanism”?
I think feminism is becoming indistinguishable from leftism.
There might be a reason for that. Where on the right are you hearing strong advocacy for women’s rights and equality?
People in politics are painting infrastructure bills as progressive these days, so feminism is one of those leftisms just like repaving roads and fixing bridges that are years out of spec. The overton window must be the window on a plane because it wont stop moving.
Believibg in the power of cooperation is already communism in some circles…
I think it’s accurate now because feminists don’t want equality; they want superiority.
They will lie to you and talk to their friends behind your backs about the truth.
You’re who I was talking about in my first paragraph.
Problem is that the branding issue is a problem for women too. The vast majority of feminists are great folks who want equality. But it also attracts the self important types that want to use victim status to get ahead or just generally put the other side down. And they’re usually the loudest “feminists”. That perpetuates the branding problem.
I think this problem is always going to exist when we’re talking about large political or philosophical movements. There’s no Council of Feminism who gets to decide who “counts” as a “real feminist”. I’ve met self proclaimed feminists whose views are what I would describe as actively anti-feminist, but there’s nothing I can do to change that.
An example that comes to my mind is how I grappled with the existence of Trans-Exclusionary-Radical-Feminism and it’s adherents (TERFs). It wasn’t just their transphobia I had beef with, but so much of their supporting worldview made me want to proclaim that they are “no true feminists”. That felt intellectually disingenuous though, because who am I to say what “true feminism” is?
I’ve come to terms with this kind of discomfort, and it’s something that has affected to what extent I call myself a feminist. I still do, but like any word, it’s utility depends on context and often it’s just not a useful label when it covers such a wide diversity of viewpoints. Certainly it shouldn’t be seen as a synonym for “good”, which is perhaps how I sometimes thought of it.
Well put. This is a very salient observation! But as OP said, I think feminism is a particularly bad name. It comes across to many as equivalent to misandrist, matriarchist, or a female only club. Rather than anyone in favor of equality for women.
The wording here is really important. We don’t know how masculinity and feminism are being defined here.
Stuff that began with “woman’s suffrage” are honored by people in this age group. They think it’s normal women vote, have jobs, leave the house etc. Some of this stuff probably isn’t even “feminism” to them but just “normal.”
Remember that these guys are on social media a lot more than us and see those words misued frequently for click bait, etc.
But that misuse of the word is harming the overall cause. It’s not like the need for feminism has evaporated, although it has surely evolved, and if young men think it’s harmful… Even if what they think is harmful is not an accurate representation of what feminism is, they aren’t going to be supporters of what it actually is if it has the name attached.
Maybe it is time for a new movement with a new name.
I’m really happy you commented this. “normal” reflects norms.
Part of any generational attitude divide is the base conditions aka norms. When a change / progress is made, it sets those norms.
It’s normal for my generation that people wear seat belts and don’t smoke in pubs, that women have extensive varied careers and dads don’t beat their kids. It wasn’t for the generation before me.
It’s not normal for men of my generation to talk openly and confidently about their sexuality and mental health. Yet that seems to be normal for some of the younger generations, and I envy that.
I find that the easiest way to tap into the generational norms is to listen to comedy. It often represents the edge of what is considered acceptable, because comedy does play with that edge.
It’s amusing to see the pitchforks come out for comedians where they’re judged for edgy content from 25 years ago and society has moved on a bit. Amusing because most of this judgement seems to happen online, and thus is a permanent record, so in 25 years time we’ll have a bunch of embarrassed mid 40s people trying to explain their cruelty to an unsympathetic younger generation. “you weren’t there, man! You don’t understand!”
Watching from country, where even 70 years ago everyone voted(although single-candidate elections are shit), everyone worked, state provided daycare for all children and my grandma worked as loader in shop because she had to work somewhere like everyone else had to, it is bizzare what shitshow happens 4 km to the east of my country.
